What do you do when you've lost that loving feeling you had when you were first married? I've been married 18 years next month, have two wonderful children in their early teens, and a wife who loves me more than life itself (why I do not know). The problem is is that I don't THINK I love her the same way anymore. That "tingle" isn't there. I love her, but it's just not like it use to be. And this is tearing her up inside. And I can't blame her for her feelings. She tells me that she can't continue with me not loving her as a husband should and that if I can't be 100% committed to the marriage and to her, then I need to move out. I don't want to leave, but don't know what to do because I'm not 100% sure as to why I feel this way. And until I am, I don't know what to work on. Now the rest of the story. Yes I was a WS nearly 18 months ago. I have had NO contact with the OW after my wife found out about the A. There is also no other woman now. Everything was actually pretty good after my BS found out. Our sex life was probably the best it had ever been. But after about 6 months, everything started (in my mind) deteriorating rapidly for no known reason. For one, our sex life turned south and my overall attitude went with it. I know this plays some part in my feelings because when I became upset with/during sex, my overall attitude changed accordingly. I found myself getting upset over trivial stuff, getting mad at the children more often over minor stuff, withdrawing to the computer more (just browsing/playing, but not chatting with people), etc. As terrible as this may sound, I love sex and she doesn't. I am not meeting her emotional needs (love) and she is not meeting my physical needs (sex) and the two of us haven't been able to come to a happy medium, although she has tried within the last couple of days since my telling her about my feelings. I have made an appointment for me to see a counselor and I am willing to try to save my marriage. My wife will be reading this too so I'm hoping for some good advise. After 18 years, you can't just up and leave without trying. I have to try. Is it really that bad or is it just me? I'm not happy with the way things are now, but I'm hoping counseling will help. You folks helped A LOT when I screwed up the first time (no pun intended), and I hope you can help again.

I Messed Up,<P>Welcome to MB! Jim/NSR has compilied a WONDERFUL link that I would like to share with you, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A>.<P>Both your wife and you should read all that's available on this wonderful site and also get the books SSA (Surviving An Affair), HNHN (His Needs Her Needs). I know this is a lot of information to take in but it truly can help you as you already know. Read read read and post post post!!<P>Counseling is available with Steve and Jennifer Harley. Click <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A> to learn about phone counseling.<P>The weekends are a little slow here but others will be along soon with more advice for you.<P>Hang in there I Messed Up!!<P>K<P><BR>

Glad that you came here to find support/help. First of all, the so-called tingle doesn't last anyway, so that is not unusual. The tingle/butterflies or whatever you want to call it, that is there in the early days, has to be replaced with a deeper love and bond. You probably know that already.<P>I'm not an expert, but being in a situation where my wife suddenly announced she was leaving almost a year ago, I just have to respond to your post. She shocked me with her announcement, and guess what, of course there was an OM involved, even though she tried every other excuse in the book for leaving (despite always saying she was happily married).<P>Given that you are both still together, one has to think that you have the best chance for recovering your marriage to what you want it to be. The grass is just not greener on the other side, so you've got to fix what is wrong between you two instead of letting it go.<P>Hopefully counselling will help. I'd strongly suggest counselling with Steve Harley. On the subject of marriages, relationships, affairs, feelings, love, etc., he can really put things into perspective, in my opinion.<P>It is all about meeting each others needs, as I'm sure you know, so I hope that you have read alot on this site, and obtained HN/HN and SAA books from MB. Buy other ones like Light Her Fire and Light His Fire, and start meeting each others needs (all of them). All easier said than done, but when I see a couple that is still together, but have problems and would want it to work, I just hope so badly that you can seize the moment and do something to make your marriage wonderful. I only wish that my wife would want to work on our marriage, instead of thinking that life will be wonderful on the other side of the fence.<P>I hope your wife gets involved in MB as well, and you let us know how things go with you. I wish you the best.<P>

After 18 years, it isn't uncommon to get in that "comfort zone" ... a daily routine where, too often, it seems we are going through the motions. Too often we let life intrude and it is easy, in stomping out all of life's forest fires, to forget what and who makes it all worthwhile. Sort of like wrestling with individual alligators and forgetting that the original objective was to drain the swamp.<P>You are on the right track coming here. The Emotional Needs assessment is an important step ... more importantly is living each day to fulfill your partner's EN, and her meeting yours. Think of this as a chance to recharge your batteries and hers. Vigorously apply what is to be found in Surviving an Affair and Dr. Harley's other books. The true test is time and being honestly committed to stay the course.<P>In the beginning of a marriage, all is exciting and new: the romance of the courtship is still being worn like a mantle. Then gradually, in the midst of all of this, the fairytale-like quality fades and life intrudes. Think back to what made those days exciting ... if you are suffering a memory lapse, get 1001 Ways To Be Romantic by Gregory Godek ... heck, even if you do remember, get the book. For its most important lesson is this: love is an emotion; romance is the art of expressing it in a tangible way.<P>Read it together: have fun with it. I can guarantee that if you vigorously apply tending to one another's EN, implement the rules of protection, time, honesty, etc. AND have fun with Godek's book, that "tingle" you've been missing will become an electrifying buzz. Against all things, guard against complacency and letting anger rule reason and compassion. Each day is a new and exciting day: it is there for the both of you to explore and make of what you will.<P>You are aware of the problems facing you and that is an extremely important first step: just remember life is not a sprint ... it is a stroll along life's path: enjoy the view and each other's company.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

I am glad you see the problem and want to fix it before you leave. <P>'Marriage is hard work' is used alot and you know what, it is. You fall in and out of love many times throughout the course of a lifelong marriage. The comitted stay and fight during the not 'in' love periods, this brings in 'true' love.<P>To bring the spark back, think back to what made you fall in love with your W in the first place. Try starting over again, take her out on a romantic date and pretend you are just meeting for the first time. Remember when you first started dating and you put alot of effort into making sure she seen the 'good' side of you? I bet you dressed nicely, made sure you smelled good, didn't fart and belch in front of her, was always careful with words too, to praise her and made sure she knew just how great she was. If you start acting like and thinking like this again, I suspect the feelings will return.<P>If you have faith, pray to see your W through God's eyes. I prayed this every night for my H and over time, I have.<P>Start treating each other like friends again. Many people (me included) treats a friend better than your own spouce that you fought so hard to get in the first place. Do you make snide comments to a friend? How about paying attention, if a friend was in the room, would you ignore him, or be rude? You get the idea.<P>When your W isn't noticing, just watch her in amazement and thank God for giving you such a gift.<P>I hope this helps. Good luck.

Welcome I Messed Up:<P>The problem with once crossing the line with an affair is it leaves you so vunerable to the fantasy even if it is over. The mind remembers all that rush of new love (the tingle) that you had forgotten existed. The affair brought all that back to you...even though it's over...the feelings are still there on the surface now...and nothing is quite the same with your marriage...almost as if you did not know what you were missing and now you do.<P>And for a while the heightened emotions brought on by the affair renewed a bit of that magic in your marriage...but eventually even that lessened...as you grew more comfortable again. Please remember that even if you had found the most ideal soulmate through an affair and you had divorce you wife to marry her, at some point you would have arrived at the same place you are now with her too. <P>The tingle or heightened awareness of each other dies over time...because it is a shallow type of love that can't be sustained...unless it is replaced by a deeper kind of love that evolves over time. If you go into relationships expecting that "tingle" or 'rush" to continue then you will be disappointed again and again. <P>But the "tingle" or "rush" is addictive and feels so good that you want it to continue. But we are adults and we realize that nothing stays at that that level and we can't always be looking for the newest "buzz". But you can learn to appreciate the trully great gift that a commited partner in a real mature relationship can be. Ask her for what you need and expect her to be willing to do anything to make you happy...very few BS would not be willing to do so...as long as it is with a willingness to work on improving what is already a good relationship. Don't go into it claiming not to have feelings for her or looking to duplicate feelings you had with OW....look at this woman who has been by your side for 18 years...this is the face of love...it only needs kindling to make it alive with love for you...and I'll bet you've been negligent in showing it just as much as she has.<P>Nothing is as sexy to a woman as a man who loves her and lets her know he does. <P><BR>Faye<BR>

You said "As terrible as this may sound, I love sex and she doesn't. I am not meeting her emotional needs (love) and she is not meeting my physical needs (sex) and the two of us haven't been able to come to a happy medium, although she has tried within the last couple of days since my telling her about my feelings."<P>It sounds to me as though you and your wife are caught up in a catch 22: You will not be able to feel love for her until she can give you the sex you desire. And she cannot give you the sex you desire until you love her. From the little you have told us here, it sounds as though there are issues on several levels that could be contributing to the problem. These will all need to be addressed before your marriage can be what you want it to be. But have no doubt that you and your wife can turn this around.<P>Have you read the Harley material and books? He gives very specific ideas on how to meet needs. Read and re-read these books. Do the exercises suggested. <P>Harley says that usually as woman's first emotional need is affection. Until that need is met and her love bank is full, it will be very hard for her to feel sexual towards her. So how do you do this? Romance is the biggest aphrodisiac there is for a woman. I cannot stress this enough. Court her like you did when you first met her. If you are not sure how to do this, get the book “1001 ways to be Romantic”. Remember the simple formula Romance = Sex.<P>Is your wife still dealing with issues about your affair? Maybe she has hit some emotional roadblocks. It is not very romantic to her to know that if she has a down turn in sexual desire or if she does not perform sexually to your standards, then there is the implied threat that you are going to either cheat on her again or leave her.<P>How was your sex life with your wife earlier in your marriage? Was it more satisfying then now? Was it up the to standard you now hold? There are many things that can affect a woman’s sexual desire. As I have already said, romance, affection, conversation, time spent together are among these things. And there are other things…. You do not mention your age. Could your wife be experiencing hormonal shifts due to menopause? I know that lowered progesterone levels at that stage of a woman’s life can greatly decrease her sexual desire.<P>Another thing you might want to look into is a counselor for sex therapy. I know it sounds odd, not many people take this route. However it may be needed here. It sounds like you have a wife who loves you and really wants to please you. But there is something blocking her ability. The book “Making Love Better Than Ever” by Barbara Keesling, Ph.D. might be very helpful to you. It’s stated intent is to help couples in “Reaching New Heights of Passion and Pleasure After 40”.<P>Good luck,<BR>Z<BR>

I am "I Messed Up's" wife. I really appreciate everyone's help more than you know. I have been a regular lerker to this site since I found out about my husband's affair in March of 2000. We both posted and everyone was a lot of help then also. It is sometimes ironic to me how the Internet can destroy relationships, but can also be helpful. I should present my side of the story. I'm not trying to make anyone choose sides, but just want help.<BR>My husband had a one-night-stand with a woman he worked with in Jan. of 2000. He also had a couple of EAs on the Internet. I became suspicious because of the time he was spending on his computer and how he would hide chat windows when I would come in the room. I installed a key logging program and discovered everything. <BR>When I confronted him with what I found, he was very remorseful and we decided to rebuild our marriage. He had changed companies before I found out, and cut off all ties to the OW. I had never been more hurt in my life. I still loved him and he said he felt the same. I tried so hard to put my hurt feelings aside. Things were wonderful at first. We were in the "honeymoon" stage that I have heard so much about on this site. We talked a lot and read all the concepts. We filled out the emotional needs questionaire more than once. We were in counseling for a little while. We discontinued counseling because we felt that we were on the right track. <BR>As time went on, he went back to spending more time on his computer. I knew he wasn't chatting with other women. The computer is just something he enjoys. His idea of a good night is to go straight to his computer after dinner (which I prepared as soon as I walked in the door from my full-time job, while helping the kids with their homework, doing some laundry, taking and picking up the kids from activities, etc.) and stay at his computer until around 11 pm, come to the bedroom, and try to get things rolling. I really don't like revealing such personal things about our life, but I will in hopes of getting help. We could have sex 5 times a day, 7 days a week and it wouldn't be enough for him. If we didn't do one thing long enough, or in the right place, he would get angry with me. He tends to like things a little "kinky", and would get mad if I wasn't willing to do something I didn't feel was right. Now it seems like it is just sex. There is no tenderness, no kissing, no "I love yous", etc. We're not stupid. We both know how things are between us and what needs to be changed. I can't compete with the computer. I actually thought things were going OK for a while. We were getting along, I made a point of being "willing" 2-3 times per week and tried to satisfy some of his needs by doing things I didn't really want to do. I was doing my best to be a good mother, housekeeper, and I made a point of not nagging him to help me around the house. A couple of months ago, he had to go on a business trip and told me he wanted "to think" about things. This was another blow to me. He came back from the trip claiming that he decided all was fine and dandy and he was committed to us forever. Once again, I thought things were fine. Then a couple of weeks ago, he tells me he doesn't think he loves me anymore. He sulks, doesn't communicate, and often snaps at me and the kids. I thought he was depressed, but he doesn't think so. We had a POJA that if he got any email or communications from an OW he would tell me. I found out about an email that he lied about. <BR>I agree with buffy: "we are adults and we realize that nothing stays at that level and we can't always be looking for the newest "buzz". But you can learn to appreciate the trully great gift that a commited partner in a real mature relationship can be." I think this is true. Also "The problem with once crossing the line with an affair is it leaves you so vunerable to the fantasy even if it is over. The mind remembers all that rush of new love (the tingle) that you had forgotten existed. The affair brought all that back to you...even though it's over...the feelings are still there on the surface now...and nothing is quite the same with your marriage...almost as if you did not know what you were missing and now you do." I know he's no longer having an affair, but I think he compares our life to a fantasy, the "rush" he had when relationships were new and the feelings he had while he chatted with new people on the Internet. He blames me for making him give the chatting up. He never saw anything wrong with it. I can never live up to those feelings.<BR>I didn't think things were get stale. We go boating on the weekends, spend time with friends, have been on some wonderful vacations together and we enjoy being involved with our children. Yes, we have our daily routines that life demands of us, but we had each other and some fun too. What else can I do? <BR>I'm feeling used and unloved. I had hoped that no matter what we went through we always loved each other and could accomplish anything. If love is gone, hope is gone too.

Extremely Hurt:<P>While you have been implementing much of what Dr. Harley's methods specify, yet there is much you and your husband are missing as well. First, he is violating the rule of time: spending all that time on the computer is time he is not spending with you; and while family outings and spending time jointly with friends, etc. is enjoyable for all, there is time that needs to be (at least 15 hours a week according to the good Doctor) exclusively yours.<P>And while you are aware of emotional needs, you both seem to be falling short in meeting some of each other's key needs. Implementing the rules of time, honesty and protection go far in establishing the bonds. As I mentioned previously: love is an emotional condition, usually expressed verbally. Romance, however is a means to express love in tangible fashion: both of you seem to be missing that--I would heartily suggest 1001 Ways To Be Romantic by Gregory Godek. Ka-ching go the love unit deposits.<P>As a former BS and WS, I can state with certainty: Dr. Harley's methodology is not an "apply once" bandaid, it is something that you constantly work at. There will be days where where one or the other of you are emotionally "down". Remember then the rule of protection and the emotional need to be affectionate, yet honest and open. Holding hands with Harley's precepts is not good enough: to truly succeed, you will both have to fully embrace them.<P>As you said, the Internet can be a bane or a boon. In my case, it served to fulfill some of my emotional needs. Your husband's activities tell me that he is still seeking to have those needs met, albeit in a different fashion. Here is where the rule of honesty comes in: you MUST both be totally honest in your Emotional Needs questionnaire; and after doing it and discussing it, you must both agressively pursue meeting each others' top needs. Totally, without reservation. It should be the most important goal of your lives.<P>(A note to your husband here: sex at its basest level is just that--base. Romance, romance, romance: I cannot stress it enough; romance is the expression of your love in a tangible way (and it has nothing to do with sex). It is a huge depositor of love units (ka-ching): both of you are experiencing an insufficiency of love unit deposits in each other's love bank. Just as in the world of finance, emotional bancruptcy generally means the withdrawals of daily demands outweighs the deposits made in your account. Sex, as a meaningful outlet in a marriage, is the culmination of expressing in a physical way the overflowing of all those deposits. You can't withdraw it if it isn't there to begin with.)<P>The same goes for you as well: his anger is because of internal conflict with his needs not being met, his frustration in not meeting yours, and perhaps factors of which you are totally unaware. From my personal experience, what happened during my A does not come into my mind now: my wife deposits so many love units (and, believe me, I try my darnest to reciprocate) that she is the sole focus of my imagination and desire.<P>You've both been withdrawing. Start depositing. Do the EN questionnaire, and do so with TOTAL honesty. (Ivory Snow honesty doesn't count: it is only 96% pure ... it must be 100% honesty.) Believe me, the short-term pain that certain revelations may cause is far outweighed by the long-term benefit of maintaining an open and honest relationship. Do not forget, however, the rule of protection: in expressing yourself honestly, do not make it an attack; rather, it should be a frank, non-emotional expression of what you feel and think.<P>Wishing you both the best,<BR>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

Dear SeentheLight, I enjoyed reading your response and found it heartwarming. I'm so glad you have seen the light. Just one quick question, did you leave your BS before seeing it?

Terrified,<P>I am SeenTheLight's wife, the BS. In his previous marriage his wife was the WS, therefore he was the BS then. <P>We are still together and working on our recovery. Things are going very well right now.<P>Z

Terrified:<P>No, there has been no separation: fortunately my W found and shared Dr. Harley's book Surviving an Affair and she gave me the opportunity to implement the good Doctor's concepts: we have come far and have far yet to go (her answer is above); but we draw strength from one another and work hard on implementing Dr. Harley's lessons.<P>Each day we make progress, and in the long run we will have a much better marriage and relationship because of it. (Though I would be loathe to recommend this path to improving a marriage).<P>In my previous marriage, I was the BS ... that was pre-Harley and MB. Needless to say, my ex-W moved out. I had no knowledge of plan A or B, and our marriage ended in divorce. In retrospect I can see all the ways we went wrong. Now, with the shoe on the other foot (now that I have removed it from my mouth [ever remember thinking: "I don't understand ... I could NEVER do such a thing?"] ... use care with these holier-than-thou thoughts and feelings: the Fates are better left untempted, for crow, foot-in-mouth and humble pie make for a poor bill of fare). The "fog" you hear mentioned here is not a stationary weather front. Under the right circumstances, anyone can be occluded by that particular weather pattern. Think of Dr. Harley's methods as providing marital radar: we can see through the fog because we know it exists; and we can learn how to circumnavigate it. Without it, we run an extreme risk of becoming lost in it and running aground on the shoals of marital disaster.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

There is an interesting thread in the Emotional Needs forum that relates to this one. Thought I'd pass it along. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/004466.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/004466.html</A> <P>"I Messed Up", it seems from your wife's posting that she is telling you very clearly what she needs from you to meet her emotional needs.<P>She needs your help with the housekeeping and child rearing. These are your responsibilities as well as hers. Why does she carry the brunt of this and hold down a full time job? She must be physically and emotionally exhausted. If you would take responsibility for your half of the responsibilities in the home, she might have more energy and desire to be sexual with you.<P>She needs more time with you. The Rule of Time is not being followed if you are spending every evening on the computer. Neither of you are able to deposit enough in each other's love banks to build true romantic love. This leads to exactly the state your marriage is slipping back into. Each of you is angry, and you feel no love for her. You will not be able to feel love for her until you give her the time needed to deposit those love units.<P>She needs you to show affection. Lovemaking (note I do not use the word SEX) starts long before you get to the bedroom, culminates in the act of sex and then the cycle starts again. For most women sex without affection, romance, tenderness, kissing, etc. is repugnant. There is a simple equation "Romance = Sex". <P>My interpretation of what the two of you wrote, is that you have not been following the 4 rules: Protection, Care, Honesty and Time. You both have emotional needs that are not being met. The MB program will not work if you do not follow it. <P>This all reminds me of my previous marriage. My husband of course expected me to meet his sexual needs. And since I have a very healthy sexual appetite, I was more then glad to do so. But as time went on, it got harder and harder. Why? Because the affection, romance, tenderness, kissing, etc. slowly disappeared from my husband’s repertoire of lovemaking. Eventually he told me that my orgasms were not his responsibility. At first I was very hurt by this and tried harder to please him. Then one day I realized that if he was not responsible for my orgasms, then it must hold that I am not responsible for his.<P>Until both of you follow the rules and meet each other's emotional needs, your love banks will not be filled and your love will die or remain dead. Without your love banks being it being filled, having sex with you will make your wife feel used, dirty and angry. Lovemaking and sex are the one emotional need that cannot be filled unless both parties feel the desire. Otherwise it is hurtful.<P>Z<BR>