Read your post on dreams, also you responeded to mine eariler this week. I would like to know your story and the status, I need some hope. WS is really mad at me and dosn't want to talk to me. Can't figure out how I can hang in ther while she is seeing OM. She is tryingto trip me up on plan A but I hold stead fast. It tough, I want to ask questions and LB. Need support to hang in there.<P>JK

Hi JK,<P>Here is my story, it is long but I will try to keep it as short as possible. <P>H's A's started in Sept 99. He had met them in massage palors thinking he needed more SF. Boy he got a lot of that. I miscarried a baby at 8 weeks in April 2001. <P>H has bi-polar disorders in his family, H has depression issues (not willing to work with a doctor) and an older brother (out of 12 siblings) that committed suicide about 15 years ago. FIL had an A and produced a child 6 weeks older than H. H found his half sister about 12 years ago. We married 10 1/2 years ago. Have one son 6 years old. <BR>MIL was in an 11 year A that she got out of about 3 -4 years ago. H owned his own gardening business, it did not do well, H has held over 7 jobs in a year. Not all reasons where due to H's inability to perform properly, company folded, bad management - many ees walked, etc. (we live in Silicon Valley in CA), company withheld pay had to go to the state employment board for a hearing, lost and had to take less money than was owed, etc. H tried day trading and lost a lot of money. H's self esteem is very low and now he has 2 jobs, 1st empolyer cut his work time in half and H is falling behind in 'his' bills. H's sibling and parents issues have all crossed our kitchen table our entire married life (weekly in many cases). H does not deal well with his family and left most of that up to me. Then claimed I was spending more time with his family than with him (this was an accusation while in the fog). All of this are important points in my situation. <P>In Aug 2000 (our 10th anniversay which did not happen), H met OW on line. Chatted for about 4 weeks, OW told H about 'a need', then the EA went PA in about an additional 2 weeks. OW claimed to be Preg. OW is about 7 + years older than H. Ow's H is about H's age supposedly very successful. OW wanted the attention from H and the money from her H. OW promised H, travel, money, his own internet business with her, her home, etc. H promised her his love and loyalty. OW had strong control over H. H paid for the motels, OW paid for some of the meals. OW setup e-mail and voicemail accounts which H paid for (vm) but OW controlled the passwords (OW changed those passwords whenever she got mad at H or doubted him). OW had H setup PO Box address. OW had many PO box address over the last 10 years. Hm..... OW & H were making plans to run away together (move to the mountains and not tell anyone). Hm..... H was 'suppose'to tell me about A at the end of last year but I found out in Nov by accidently listening to a vm message from OW at the end she said the infamous: "I love you". H said it was a friend, then a good friend then finally confessed to the A. <P>Oh yea, this confession was on the same day we had gone to see a marriage counselor and H said nothing about the A. <P>I found out about A in Nov, 2000, H moved out 12/31/00. H went on a vacation with OW in Feb 01 (3 days in Yosemite), H made about 8 attempts/pleas to move back home. He was not ready. H waffled the entire time. OW got very angry at him and accused me of 'all their trouble'. <P>H moved back on 4/29/01. Going on 4 weeks. OW has left over 30 voicemails (finally got the vm company to close the account). H's sprint cell is cancelled. Now left to change H's work cell and pager. H gave me access to his 'secret' e-mail accounts and he changed the passwords so OW can't delete anything. OW calls weekly (actually pages almost daily and calls lot). H manages to ignore most of the calls, so far has talked to her at least 2 times week (this week down to once as of now - I think). H told OW he does not want to talk to her but is not firm about not talking to her anymore. OW does not take NO for an answer. OW left vm messages for H knowing I would be listening and proceeded to say a lot of nasty stuff about me. H deleted all messages, should have kept it for harrasment proof. OW claims she will continue to keep contact with H. <P>Back in Feb 2000, OW's rules for their A to continue and have H live with her, was that H had to divorce W. She would not see him unless he was 'single'. Hm..... H could not see W for 1 year, H to have separate mailing address for his bills and checks. H could only see son on weekends. H could not pick up son at W's home nor the home of any relative or friend, must be in a neutral place (like a parking lot?), H must pay OW approx $1000.00 for his room and board expenses. Hm......H could not afford even his room rent and his bills. W paid for all family rent and bills while carrying H's medical and auto insurances plus back taxes due to bad stock market playing. <P>Now what did I do? I found MB in Jan 01. Planned A from Nov 00- end of Feb 01, went to plan B March 01 and H came home 4/29/01. In between, I cried a lot, had anxiety attacks, continued working, got the support of my boss, my staff, fellow employees, friends and family (in-laws were very supportive). I asked all to respect my wishes and I prayed to God for a clear mind and a calm heart. <P>H & I had 1 phone counseling session with Steve Harley, need to more. I read everything on MB site in Jan 2001, made a copy of most of the info, put it by subjec in a folder and gave it to H (took about 3 hours of reading and printing). Started reading and posting end of Jan 01 here on the JFO and GQII site. Went to the D/d site around Feb/March (I think) and post on GQII and d/d periodically. <P>Had the bad dreams you read about. Had much support here. Here is a good thread that you might appreciate:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002494.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002494.html</A> <P>Came to the acceptance stage in March when I went to plan B. It was hard. Due to having a child there was a lot of communication but I stuck to just the ones I said I would (communicate about child visits, bills, mail). H pushed for more communication. <P>At first, I had the need to know about OW. Questions H would not or could not answer. Why was OW better than me? What could I or should I do? What was my limit? By the time I learned of the A, OW had a strong control over H. I was in the dark and not aware of all the issues. H was blaming me for everything, full of anger and hate fueled by OW. Ow's H did not know (per OW's e-mails). So I did a bit of checking. I felt sorry for OW's H, he sounded like a nice man who was also manipulated by his W. OW liked to take credit for other's accomplishements, her H, my H and even me. She took credit for sending H back to his family but failed to mention about how she immediately grabbed him back and H was too weak to resist. You see he liked the attention OW was giving him. Wanted his cake and eat it to. H even told OW back in Feb that he could come home anytime and have his W. What this meant for H was that he could continue playing and he felt I would keep the door open. Now while I did not know he said that, I figured out by his actions that he thought that way. So I went to plan B in March. <P>Here is a post where I was asking for help:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002611.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002611.html</A> <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002694.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002694.html</A> <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002695.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002695.html</A> <P>These are just some of the posts for help, there are many more. The responses are what are good to look at. A lot of food for thought especially when the urge to LB is strong. A point I would like to make is that an LB in plan A may not be an LB in plan B because the reasons are different. <BR> <BR>You can see my pain in some of these posts. <P>Now what did I do to help myself? I recognized the stages of grieving, saw where I was and where I needed to be. Worked on getting myself there. Even though I knew what to do, since we are not in full control of all parties, we need to concentrate on ourselves and our children. Those who will let us control/help them. Control is not necessarily a bad thing, it depends on who controls and why. <P>So I let H be mad, but in Feb 01 I asked H that he stop yelling at me when he was mad at himself and to only 'yell' at me when I really did mess something up. At that time I would appreciate it if he notified me in a civil manner. I on the other hand would do all within my power NOT to make trouble. <P>Oh sometimes the things that happened are funny when you look back. Have to keep a sense of humor in it all. Right now that may not be possible for you and that is ok also. <P>Here is one of my humorus posts: <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002539.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002539.html</A> <P><BR>So all in all, my primary advice is to read up on the info here on the site, the books and chat with Steve or Jennifer by phone ASAP. Use the support from all the tools available here. Our experiences are helpful as well. Take the good discard the parts that do not pertain to you situation. <P>My motto: Turn life's lemons into lemonade. <P>Chin up, you are not the only one with this issue. Just take a look at the rest of us. Some do reconcile, some go to divorce. Either way, we the BS come out of this whole mess a better and stronger person. The WS may or may not make it. Focus on the part you can fix. Don't despair too much if your mate does not do what you know is in their best interest. Also, the WS waffles and changes their mind constantly. What they hate today, they may love tomorrow. Don't go with their flow, it is too unreliable. Let them see that you are stable and steady. Eventually they will recognize where real happiness lies. For some it may just be too late. Remember the BS is human and has limits. We will not always be available for the WS and take any kind of abuse. <P>Take care and ask any questions you have. Also, you will find that a lot of the guys here are very helpful. The perspective of a man vs woman on these issues are very helpful. You have a lot of good support people here that have been here a while and can help you. <P>Oops, almost forgot. Where are we now? H has been home in his 4th week. He gave me access to all e-mail accounts. Some of OWs e-mails were offensive, I sent it to the service provider to ask them to close H's account, instead they reviewed her message and closed OW's e-mail account (2nd time). Hmmmm....... Recovery is slow but steady. <P><BR>L. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited June 01, 2001).]

JK, Best of luck to you and aren't we all lucky to have someone such as orchid to give us so much insight!! Awesome post of hope!!

Thanks for the compliment but let's not be too quick to pat ourselves on the back. This is a hard struggle for all of us. We are just sharing our stories and what helped us. <P>I am fully aware that this recovery may not last or it might. Right now it is not up to me.<P>If we can help even one person through their tough ordeal then some good is coming out of our posts here. As prepared as we try to be, when the tough times hit (ie: d/d, confrontation with OP, big fight with WS, etc.), it will still hurt. Recovery from the hit may be quicker but the pain is still felt. Nonetheless, survival is a strong option providing we make it our goal. Bettering ourselves and our quality of life can happen and that part is within our control. Often our outlook on life changes during these times and our priorities change. <P>I personally, have learned a lot here and try to share what I can. Another motto: Keep smiling and make 'them' wonder what you're up to.<P>L.

Orchid, Wow, what a story and roller coaster ride, and Tremendous post. Funny, you mentioned the yelling, yesterday 2 telephone converstaion she yelled at me most of the time. 11 days into d-day, and 9 days into my radical honesty, she's really mad at me. SHe is struggling with this so I suggested several times, she call Steve H. (they spoke once 4 weeks ago.) MIL told me OM is not serious and no big deal, W confirmed that yesterday by saying,"I can't wait until the day when I fall in love again and have another baby with that man, and I'll never have another baby with you." Also can't understand how I'm doing this whil she is seeing OM. "How are you doing this while I'm seeing him?" One more good one, "you need to get on with your life, start dating, please start dating, you need to strat dating." all in a raised tone of voice. Even tried to bargin with me, "I'll talk to Steve H when you start dating." She admits I'm not doing anything she expected,but is not buying I'm a changed man. Later in conversation, I'll never speak to Steve H, I'm never coming back! we'll never be together again! I think she is waffling, missing core family time, seeing daughter (4.5) suffer and wants to reconcile, looking for reasons to push me away. Steve H warned me, she will try to get me off my plan, both positive and negative ways, "stick to it". I did. It just get her more frustrated and confused. If their is nrmal behavior for WS, is this it? I felt very much in control yesterday, and optimistic. Should I not be optimistic?<P>JK<BR> <BR>PS,how do I post a link?<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>Thanks for the compliment but let's not be too quick to pat ourselves on the back. This is a hard struggle for all of us. We are just sharing our stories and what helped us. <P>I am fully aware that this recovery may not last or it might. Right now it is not up to me.<P>If we can help even one person through their tough ordeal then some good is coming out of our posts here. As prepared as we try to be, when the tough times hit (ie: d/d, confrontation with OP, big fight with WS, etc.), it will still hurt. Recovery from the hit may be quicker but the pain is still felt. Nonetheless, survival is a strong option providing we make it our goal. Bettering ourselves and our quality of life can happen and that part is within our control. Often our outlook on life changes during these times and our priorities change. <P>I personally, have learned a lot here and try to share what I can. Another motto: Keep smiling and make 'them' wonder what you're up to.<P>L. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hi JK,<P>You sound in better spirits. This roller coaster ride is part of the 'normal' fog pattern along with the insane babbling, waffling, nonsense talking. Even the children can see their parent is not thinking straight. My son is 6 years old and one of his observations during my H's brillant moments stating he was a bad H and F within earshot of our child was, "well if dad is a bad H, the why would he want to get married to another lady and be a bad H again and dad used to be a good F, why did he change to a bad one?" Hmmm..... out of the mouth of babes. <P>Talk with your child. Make sure you are able to keep clear communication with her. Let her share what is in her heart. Don't underestimate what she knows. Kids are very smart. <P>Now about posting threads. I am not good at all the tricks here and know there is a post somewhere with more instructions but can't find it. Here is what I do know and hope others can share more:<P>Posting a thread Go to the thread you want and hi-lite and copy the address at the top of your screen. Then go to where in your post you want to put that thread and first key: '' 'copy your thread here' then key: ''.<P>Back to your topic. It may be helpful if you had a session or two with Steve also. You sound like this is all new for you. The first few months (1-3 months) are rough. Your emotions are riding high, you want to fix everything, carry on your responsibilities, finding out you can not control your family because the WS is not cooperating, don't want to eat, loose interest in everything else, become too focused on the problem, have a strong need to know everything about the A, will be hurt by what you do know, you may want to confront the OM (to talk some sense to him to stay away from your W), you may want to talk to OM's W to ask for her assistance, need support of friends and family but don't know how to ask for it, feel like a failure to your family & friends, anxiety attacks, loss of appetite and sleep, etc. Oh the list goes on. <P>Now with all this, how do you cope? First of all, let's start by knowing this can happen. Now learn as quickly as you can that while you can make improvments in yourself, you are NOT in control of your W and her thinking ability (for that matter neither is she). So for all the parts of your frustration that you can NOT control or fix (without breaking the law), put them out of your head as much as is humanely possible. Oh you will think about it. If you need to research about OM, there are ways, but make sure you understand the risks and benefits. Know that your wife will continue to babble nonsense and don't follow every word she says as gospel truth. Eventually it will not hurt as much and you will be able to deal with it. Take a look at Worthatry's posts. Dave has a great sense of humor and he dealt with the loss of a son and now his wife. Despite it all and much frustration, he is doing quite well. He has all lifted our spirits along with the many other guys that are surviving their ordeals. This group of guys and gals here are quite a bunch. Their sense of responisibility and humor have really helped me to survive. <P>So hang in there buddy, you will make it.......<P>L.<P><BR>

Orchid,<P>Found out today from FIL the outoe to MIL is not true, not even close, she is definately trying to get me off my game plan. I have been speaking to Steve 1x week now dow to every 2 weeks. I have orgainzed print outs from this site in to an accordian folder. Read HN/HN and reading SAA and LB is next. She is all over the place with me. Angry, frustrated, flirting a bit, yesterday she actually said, "I'm tried of arguing with you about this marraige" and I hadn't even raised my voice. Just did'nt agree it is over. I think I said,"we'll see". She also said "I don't feel anything for you, 2 minutes after yelling at me. I know she is hurting and confused. Called tonight, missing the kids desperately,(my weekend, but did'nt want to talk to me. She blames me for everything wrong in our marriage and her life. So if she is missing the kids because she left and is having an affair,( she dosn't call it an affair, because she waited until after she left to have sex), all my fault. I invited her over to see them, she declined. <P>I am in better spirits, (celexa), because I feel in control, with Steve and my plan and yesterdays interactions she was out of control and I was in control. I know they were together last night and proable tonight, that hurts and I know its gonna be a long and winding road. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>Hi JK,<P>You sound in better spirits. This roller coaster ride is part of the 'normal' fog pattern along with the insane babbling, waffling, nonsense talking. Even the children can see their parent is not thinking straight. My son is 6 years old and one of his observations during my H's brillant moments stating he was a bad H and F within earshot of our child was, "well if dad is a bad H, the why would he want to get married to another lady and be a bad H again and dad used to be a good F, why did he change to a bad one?" Hmmm..... out of the mouth of babes. <P>Talk with your child. Make sure you are able to keep clear communication with her. Let her share what is in her heart. Don't underestimate what she knows. Kids are very smart. <P>Now about posting threads. I am not good at all the tricks here and know there is a post somewhere with more instructions but can't find it. Here is what I do know and hope others can share more:<P>Posting a thread Go to the thread you want and hi-lite and copy the address at the top of your screen. Then go to where in your post you want to put that thread and first key: '' 'copy your thread here' then key: ''.<P>Back to your topic. It may be helpful if you had a session or two with Steve also. You sound like this is all new for you. The first few months (1-3 months) are rough. Your emotions are riding high, you want to fix everything, carry on your responsibilities, finding out you can not control your family because the WS is not cooperating, don't want to eat, loose interest in everything else, become too focused on the problem, have a strong need to know everything about the A, will be hurt by what you do know, you may want to confront the OM (to talk some sense to him to stay away from your W), you may want to talk to OM's W to ask for her assistance, need support of friends and family but don't know how to ask for it, feel like a failure to your family & friends, anxiety attacks, loss of appetite and sleep, etc. Oh the list goes on. <P>Now with all this, how do you cope? First of all, let's start by knowing this can happen. Now learn as quickly as you can that while you can make improvments in yourself, you are NOT in control of your W and her thinking ability (for that matter neither is she). So for all the parts of your frustration that you can NOT control or fix (without breaking the law), put them out of your head as much as is humanely possible. Oh you will think about it. If you need to research about OM, there are ways, but make sure you understand the risks and benefits. Know that your wife will continue to babble nonsense and don't follow every word she says as gospel truth. Eventually it will not hurt as much and you will be able to deal with it. Take a look at Worthatry's posts. Dave has a great sense of humor and he dealt with the loss of a son and now his wife. Despite it all and much frustration, he is doing quite well. He has all lifted our spirits along with the many other guys that are surviving their ordeals. This group of guys and gals here are quite a bunch. Their sense of responisibility and humor have really helped me to survive. <P>So hang in there buddy, you will make it.......<P>L.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hi JK,<P>Glad to hear you are on more stable ground. Watching is hard but better than riding that roller coaster with them and not knowing where you might land. I am not real sure what you meant by your MIL's comment. I hope your relatives can see the truth and come to you support. This can also play a vital role in helping your W to see what she is losing. <P>In the meantime, keep your reading. I made a binder of the stuff here and gave it to H. Also, I communicated with him via e-mail (since OW was also doing the same). I sent H many posts from here and he read them. Sometimes he did not agree with some of the posters. Like H believed he was not 'in the fog'. Hmmmmm........ Well, time proved that one. He certainly was. He couldn't even manage his money out there and did not last longer than 3 months. When they are in the fog, sometimes their mental calculator either breaks or the battery wears out. Wow, having to pay for all your meals! What a revelation to H!! He even told his BIL that H now had to pay for 'all' his food and that was expensive!! Let's see who had been paying for his food, room & board, etc. for over 10 years? Hm.... evidently not H since he didn't even know how expensive everything was. Wow!!<P>There will probably be more stuff coming out. Brace yourself and let those here help when they can. I would like to mention that there are several other guys that post here: AGoodGuy, Rick37, NSR, SeenTheLight, Clarity, etc.<BR>You can learn a lot from them. <P>Take Care,<P>L.<P>

Orchid, Sorry, I did'nt proof the last post, MIL comment was; W said, I told my mother yesterday " I can't wait until teh day I fall in love with someone else and get married and have their baby". "My mother thought that was wonderful" of course what grandmother dos'nt want more grandchildren. <P>I have heard for NSR and Rick37, both very helpful. <P>Steve H suggest I try not educate her yet, it will seem to self serving, I'm waiting for his go ahead. <P>I can't imanage more stuff, unless their unprotected sex has reprocussions, uggh! " She said its unprotected because she trusts him. Also can't get preggers (IUD).<P>I am concerned about her mental calculator, it will break. My guess in 60 to 90 days. What about the kids when that happens? How will she be able to handel them. <P>Thanks again.<P>JK<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>Hi JK,<P>Glad to hear you are on more stable ground. Watching is hard but better than riding that roller coaster with them and not knowing where you might land. I am not real sure what you meant by your MIL's comment. I hope your relatives can see the truth and come to you support. This can also play a vital role in helping your W to see what she is losing. <BR> <P>In the meantime, keep your reading. I made a binder of the stuff here and gave it to H. Also, I communicated with him via e-mail (since OW was also doing the same). I sent H many posts from here and he read them. Sometimes he did not agree with some of the posters. Like H believed he was not 'in the fog'. Hmmmmm........ Well, time proved that one. He certainly was. He couldn't even manage his money out there and did not last longer than 3 months. When they are in the fog, sometimes their mental calculator either breaks or the battery wears out. Wow, having to pay for all your meals! What a revelation to H!! He even told his BIL that H now had to pay for 'all' his food and that was expensive!! Let's see who had been paying for his food, room & board, etc. for over 10 years? Hm.... evidently not H since he didn't even know how expensive everything was. Wow!!<P>There will probably be more stuff coming out. Brace yourself and let those here help when they can. I would like to mention that there are several other guys that post here: AGoodGuy, Rick37, NSR, SeenTheLight, Clarity, etc.<BR>You can learn a lot from them. <P>Take Care,<P>L.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><p>[This message has been edited by JK (edited June 03, 2001).]

Hi JK,<P>Been a bit under the weather. Too bad because it is really a beautiful day. Anway, you have been give good advice from Steve. This watch and wait game is hard on the patience factor (this was one of the hardest things for me to work on). <P>It will pay off. If you 'don't' ride that roller coaster of emotions with her you will be in a better position to help her when she is ready to come off. All that 'trust' stuff is part of the foghead talking. My H really believed that OW would 'never' lie to him. H used to be an honest man, that was why he was caught lying. He was bad at it. OW on the other hand is a cunning witch. Very good at influcing people for the bad. Then she turns the tables and plays the 'victim'. Guess I could not fall under her 'spell' so she despised me. Oh, that's putting it mildly. <P>I don't really have much more to say (& that's a surprise), but you keep up your good stuff and keep plugging. Your support is here at this site and with all the tools at your disposal. Use all the support you have and take care of yourself. <P>L.<BR>