April 23 was D-Day and I have been so helped by all these posts (THANKS EVERYONE). I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the info but trying to get Plan A/Plan B straight. My husband said three weeks ago that he decided to work on our marriage but still has contact with co-worker/lover. After confrontion tonight, he admitted that he is still so confused. My major feeling tonight is how will I ever trust him again and I am losing interest in working through this mess. I asked him to please find out the answer to just two questions "Does he want to be married to me and what does "work" on your marriage mean?" Appreciate any support and advice!!!

Hi TW,<P>This time of the weekend gets a bit slow, so please be patient with the responders. If you are new here, I would like to welcome you and your H to MB. Also, I would like to share a thread that introduces you to the concepts we have learned at marriage builders. It is not just a forum to chat. There are various tools useful in suriving an A and rebuilding our marriages. While that is the primary goal, also bettering our self-esteem is a benefit. Some here do end in divorce, many recover. Whichever may happen, there is a lot to learn so that we can help ourselves and our families. <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008792.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008792.html</A> <P>I would also like to recommend the phone counseling service offered by Jennifer and Steve Harley. If your H is agreeable to participating in services offered here this will be helpful in your recovery.<P>It is good that your H recognizes the real issue. That is a step in the right direction. I would like to caution you not to get too happy. Withdrawal can be long and hard. It will test your patience and endurance. Right now, your H will need your love and support. Read up on plan A vs Plan B. The Harley's will be able to help you decide which one is better for your situation. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<P>

First, follow Orchid's advice. Second, realize that there is no quick fix. Accept that you have to hunker down for a long project. Along with this, keep in mind that there will be day-to-day thrills and chills. They don't call this a rollercoaster for nothin'. But you have to maintain a target on the horizon, you can't react to every current in the river. (Enough metaphors? sorry) OK?<P>WAT

tossedwave<P>I can easily empathise with what you are experiencing right now. My husband continued "non-work" contacct with a co-work he had an affair with for 6 months after D-day. Let me tell you it was not an easy thing to deal with. My user name is very deceieving - I have little patitence - it was more a reminder to me to keep on the right path.<BR>Only you can decide how much you can take in respect to how long you can allow contact to go on. I was hanging on by the tips of my fingernails when my H finally ended the affair.<BR>My advice to you right now would be to stick to plan A (if you feel you can do it and still want the marriage). For now, I would almost bet that your H will "waffle" for awhile. He may, like my H did, feel that he has caused irreparable damage and be overcome with guilt, this will make a relationship with the OW seem more attractive for awhile. He sees no guilt there, he has caused no pain to her. Until he breaks things off with the OW completely there will be no real coming out of the fog and no real withdrawl. He will say and do things that will hurt and amaze you ("Who is this man/alien" - is what a BS often thinks) alot of which he will not even recall when he does come out of the fog and completes the withdrawl process.<BR>Try not to preach - he won't take any of it in and it will only make you look bad in his eyes and make him feel attacked.<BR>Don't believe much of what he says - good ar bad - in the first little while judge by his actions and his response to your plan A.<BR>Find a good counsellor and go yourself even if your H won't be a part of it at first. It helps to get things out so you won't be taking them out on him.<BR>Come here and read, post, vent, ask advice, give advice, we are great at moral support.<BR>Breathe, take time for you, work on you, it will be worth it in the end. <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <P><p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited June 02, 2001).]

I am so weary now after just over a month....when I hear 6 months to a year, I want to just run away. We have been married for 32 years and H has a drinking problem that has kept him from being a family "member" for years. He always has wanted to just do his own thing all the time and now this is just a concentrated dose of the past many years. I am struggling to hang on....I almost feel it is hopeless. He refuses any help and I see no way he can ever want what is right and good for us

Hi TW,<P>You sound exhausted and rightly so. If you can, do a search on Bramble Rose on both the GQII and Divorcing/Divorce site. Bramble posts mostly in the d/d site. She has some excellent help for those dealing with alcoholism as well. This is a hard combination. If you want, I can put a post out to her to come and see you here. <P>Here is a post from her that may help:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008989.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008989.html</A> <P>Take Care,<BR>L.

Orchid---I am game for any help...send Bramble Rose my way. I am exhausted. Thanks for noticing

Patient Love--your advice was discouraging but helpful. Is your marriage recovering from the A? Does your H go to counseling or see his part in the wreck of your marriage? The hardest thing for me is the denial---of the A and the alcoholism. He is a master of denial cause he has lived in it for many years, has it developed to a skill and it feels like I got double barrels shooting at me. Egads---I keep praying for hope of some sort but not sure I see it. Sad thing is my H is a real likeable guy and fun to be with but he seems to have the emotional makeup of a 15 yr old. I see potential and that keeps me hangin on, I guess.

Hi Tossedwave:<P>I was interested in your remark about your WH going his own way. This may not be true in your case, but in the discussions that my WH and I are having he was telling me that he felt left out of the family...and turned to someone else to get the feeling of support and acceptance that he needed. I've read that if an individual is not getting the love and acceptance he needs he can turn to other things...like alcohol..to fill up the emptiness inside him (Woman often turn to food to fill the emptiness) amd later he can turn to others to help...and in comes OW.<P>Whatever he needs...is it something he can get from you...I don't know? We all try to get our emotional needs met by our wives and husbands if possible...if not...then we can look to others. I quess what I'm saying is that the alcoholism could be a symptom of what's missing in his life...and that is something that you might be able to work on....by using this site to discover what both of your ENs are and trying to work on fulfilling them.<P>As has been said, there is no easy fix for this...but 32 years is a lot of time to just give up on...even if he has tried...I myself have been wresting with this devil for almost 5 years off and on...but if I had been exposed to the MB principles long ago I think I could have shortened that time considerably. I didn't know what was wrong...or how to fix it...in fact, nothing I did seem to make any difference...until MB. MB has made a difference and things at last are changing. <P>Please stay with us and try for a while and see if you don't see some change for the better. I know you're tired but you've been fighting without support...now you have some.<P>Faye<P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 02, 2001).]

tossedwave,<P>My marriage is in recovery now. We have been making progress since about April last year (when persoanl contact ended) but started making even more progress since December (when even work contact ended). There have been setbacks but most of that has been due to my emotions and such - H had to recently go back to work with OW but has kept things on a "work only" basis with her with for the most part.<BR>He takes complete responsibilty for his affair and had done some counselling but finances make it difficult.<P>It is true what you say about denial, when my H was in "the fog" I felt he was a master at <B>"Clintonisims"</B>. He would skirt the issue, tell half truths and say thiings in ways that made things seem different from what they were.<P>As I have said and others will tell you, only you are the best judge about whether or not you can hang on any longer.<BR>Know that plan A isn't really about "winning your spouse back" but becoming better yourself - work on you and the things that you see need improvement and then no matter what the outcome of the marriage is <B>YOU</B> will be better. Look at it as more of a Plan TW than anything else.<P>As I also said before - <I>breathe</I> - it is highly underrated (as my dear friend Dylan reminded me just the other day).<P>God Bless<P><P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

Hi tossedwave ~<P>Orchid asked me to come over here and offer my experience to you as a wife of an unrecovered alcoholic. <P>I'm sorry we have to meet under these circumstances. Unfortunately lying and infidelity are often a common experience for alcoholic marriages. My alcoholic H is a very loving sweet man while drinking. He's nasty when sober. So I guess you could say that his drinking wasn't my problem - his sobrity is!! The affair(s) and the constant nonstop dishonesty are the most painful symptoms of his addiction. <P>I can't and won't tell you if you should or should not leave your marriage. I can tell you that, as long as your H remains untreated for his addiction, that he is <B>incapable</B> of participating in your marriage. Recovery under those circumstances, I firmly believe is not possible. Why? Because it is not possible to meet the needs of an addict. It is not possible to refrain from lovebusting in an alcoholic relationship. Not only is it impossible for YOU to meet the ENs of an addict, but it is also impossible for an addict to meet your needs. <P>Please understand, that an alcoholic does not withold love, affection and marital participation. An active alcoholic is incapable of doing these things.<P>Now, does that mean you should just give up and walk out on your marriage? Not necessarily. If your husband chooses recovery, your marriage can survive. But you can't force him to get help...and as you mentioned already, he's in denial about the problem.<P>Before you make any life altering decisions, I'd strongly encourage you to spend 6 months in Al-Anon. Living with an alcoholic is extremely difficult. It is a family disease, because it affects everyone surrounding the alcoholic, most profoundly of course, the spouse and children. <P>I know that after 8 years of living with my alcoholic husband, I was crazier than he was. I am not exaggerating one bit. I believe that one of the reasons why is that an alcoholic uses booze to numb themselves to the pain of the life that they have chosen for themselves. We spouses on the other hand, experience that insanity stone cold sober. It effects us so deeply and in so many ways, that we become sick without even realizing it.<P>So please, spend time working on YOU. Focus on your own emotional and spiritual recovery. In 6 months, you will be in a much different place mentally and emotionally - and you will be better able to make these decisions for yourself. Don't do it now, while in the fog of pain over his drinking and affairs.<P>I just recently wrote a long response to another woman in an alcoholic marriage - rather than rewrite everything - I'll invite you to read her story and my response. I am sure, even if your story is not the same, there are many things you can identify with.<P>That thread is at:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003002.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003002.html</A> <P>I have lots of links for you to explore!! <P>Dr. Harley's 3 Q&A articles on alcohol addiction:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048b_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048b_qa.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048c_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048c_qa.html</A> <P>Al-Anon - <A HREF="http://www.al-anon.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.al-anon.org/</A> <BR>AA - <A HREF="http://www.aa.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aa.org/</A> <P>Steps2Recovery - <A HREF="http://www.steps2recovery.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.steps2recovery.org/</A> (a fantastic online group that I belong to - but online is NOT a substitute for face to face meetings, so only use this as a supplement!)<P>The text of the Big Book of Alcholics Anonymous can be read here: <A HREF="http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/index.html</A> <P>My favorite chapter is chapter 5. I read it frequently!!!<P>I hope this helps!<P>(((((((hugs)))))))<P>--BR<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Thanks, Bramble Rose, for all your insights...I was relieved to hear that I am not crazy when I ponder my husband's lack of participation in our marriage. I have been to Alanon and read many books about my co-dependency and my alcoholic family of origin. I read One Day At A Time every morning but I must admit, I am still very confused about some of the concepts of Alanon....like detachment while still living in the same house for one.<P>I do feel that this A has all the same characteristics of the alcoholism but it is more a concentrated dose of waywardness. The fruatration feels the same. Must say, it is a different kind of pain, though. Oh well, I have much to learn and too tired to think anymore tonight but thanks a million. You have given me much food for thought. I feel like it does not matter if I Plan A/Plan B at all cause what will it get me...just back to the other "mistress"

Hi tossed ~<P>I'm glad to hear that you are participating in Al-Anon. I'd like to make a couple of suggestions though. You need a sponsor!! A sponsor can help you sort through some of your confusion and help you navigate through applying the 12-steps to your life. One Day at a Time is a wonderful daily reader...but it is not enough. You can not work a program simply by reading only that. I'd like to suggest that you pick up a copy of "Paths to Recovery" and "The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage".<P>As for how to detach, here is an article on Detachment that I find very helpful. I've posted this before on this forum, but rewritten for indfidelity. I'll leave it in the original form for you regarding alcoholism.<P>**********************************<P><B>Detachment with Love</B><P>In Al-Anon we learn that we cannot "Live and Let Live" if we do not attend to our own responsibilities instead of focusing on the responsibilities of others. To keep the focus on ourselves, we need to learn to "detach with love".<P>We learn how to cope with the alcoholism of those we love and to detach from the disease, not necessarily the person. Alcoholism is a family disease. This means family members are deeply affected, physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially and intellectually, even though they themselves do not drink.<P>The stress of living with active alcoholism can have numerous effects:<P>Physical - We may develop health problems such as headaches, high blood pressure, stomach aches, ulcers, panic attacks, insomnia, and heart problems.<P>Emotional - We may feel angry, resentful, lonely, guilty, or depressed. <P>Social - In relating to others, we may be distant, aloof, embarrassed, withfrawn, aggressive, arrogant, self righteous, judgemental, or controlling.<P>Intellectual - We may find it difficult to concentrate, make decisions, comprehend what we are hearing and reading.<P>Spiritual - Our outlook on life may become bitter, despairing, helpless, hopeless, or lacking in trust or faith. <P>Detaching with love has more pages in the indexes of CAL than any other topic. With practice and with support from other Al-Anon members we come to understand that detachment from the alcoholic's problems does not mean that we stop caring about the person. <P>Alcoholism is a disease that is fatal if not arrested. It never gets better without help - it always gets worse. <P>Keys to detaching with love:<P>Responsibility - The first key in detaching is to begin taking responsibility for our own behavior. We can no longer stumble through our lives blaming others for the way we feel and holding them accountable for whether we are happy or not. No one can make us feel anything. It is our reactions to the behavior that causes our anger, resentment, pain and disappointment. When we blame others for our own negative reactions, we hand over all our personal power to that person and we loose ourselves.<P>Acceptance - Acceptance is the next key. We need to look at the reality of what has happened in the past and what is happening now. Many of us stumble in the beginning over the incorrect thought that acceptance means approval. Acceptance does not mean that we feel ok about current or past circumstances, it only means that we stop trying to change what we have no power over. We have no power over the past or the alcoholic.<P>Even with acceptance, we need to grieve the losses caused by alcoholism in our families and in our lives. Dreams have faded, bubbles have burst. Acceptance gives us two things - acceptance of our feelings and also acceptance of the fact that we cannot change the other person - healing from our loss and disillusion is an inside job. <P>The Three C's<P>Detaching with love is easier when we remember the three C's - we did not cause the alcoholism in another, we cannot control the alcoholism or the alcoholic, we cannot cure alcoholism or the alcoholic. <P>Cause - Alcoholism is a disease. Just as we cannot cause someone to develop diabetes, cancer, or any other disease, we do not have the power to cause anyone else to become addicted. Every addicted person blames others for their addiction and their use - this is their denial and their disease. Accepting that blame becomes our prison.<P>Control - Despite our best intentions and efforts, controlling other people does not work. Relationships cannot grow and intimacy cannot develop if one person is controlling the other. We only have control over ourselves and how we respond to situations, other people and their behavior. Trying to control other peoples behavior may temporarily make us feel better and give us an illusion of being in control - but in the long run, it does not work.<P>Cure - Alcoholism is a disease that cannot be cured. It can be arrested but never cured. Alcoholism is a disease that is fatal if not arrested. It never gets better without help, it always gets worse. This is the progression of the disease. Only the alcoholic can seek help for their disease. No matter what we do, the treatment for the disease is not ours to hand out. <P>Words that stand in the way of detaching….<P>Why…? <BR>What if…? <BR>Yes, but….. <BR>I can't… <BR>I'll try…. <BR>Why…?<P>The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.<P>What if….?<P>What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have. <P>Yes, but…..<P>When we "yes but…" we are not listening to what others have to say. We are being self centered and self absorbed, and in essence saying we are so unique that what has worked for countless others will not work in our situation. Each time we "yes but" we are cooking up excuses inside our heads and our minds are closed. <P>I can't….<P>This is our biggest lie to ourselves. The truth is not that we can't, but that we won't. It is where we let fear have control over our lives. <P>I'll try…..<P>The saying, "to try is to lie" refers to how easily we fall into making excuses. If we say, "I'll try" we lack commitment. "I'll try" allows us to bide our time while looking for an excuse not to do whatever we have said we'll try. <P>H.O.W.<BR>HOW do we detach?<P>H - Honesty with ourselves and others<P>O - Openness to hearing new ideas and breaking old ways of thinking and behaving<P>W - Willingness to take risks and try something different<P>Detaching with love does not mean that we stop caring. It simply means that we quit trying to control someone else and their behavior. We stop creating comfortable environments for unacceptable behavior. We stop lying to ourselves, we accept the reality of who the person is instead of focusing on who they "could" be.<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Bramble Rose, for a "minute" I thought the A was going to be a catalyst to expose the change needed in our marriage but right now I am feeling so hopeless. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick...." I have worked on myself endlessly and do have more serenity then I ever had. I am healthier than I ever have been in my life and have learned how to manage the stress of living with an alcoholic. I have had two breakdowns ('85 and '87) but now I exercise regularly, eat and rest properly and leaned how to reduce stress when necessary. I have worked through major faith issues and I see God as God not my personal "Santa". Unfortunately, I have such a barrier to the fact that I need to change more.....I feel trapped. I feel that I worked on detachment the best I know how and that is what brought the A into our lives. He blames my lack of affection on this A. I was getting very depressed for months before D-Day. I kept warning my H that his friendships with women at work were dangerous and how it was very upsetting to me. How can you be lovey-dovey to someone who shows no regard to your feelings of pain. As the pain increased, I withdrew but still continued to act respectful and caring. There is nothing in my h's thinking that screams at him that he is trouble. His drinking is very controlled and causes him little or no pain. I can't even convince myself he is an alcoholic cause his drinking is sporadic and probably very minimal. I have felt for years though that because of his drinking and my reaction to it, we could never have any kind of relationship and now I feel you have confirmed that. <P>My great fear right now is that not only will the alcoholism continue to go unchecked but the A will also continue as he is a master at lying and denial. <P>He can't make a decision as to who he wants...me or OW. Right now I have no clue as to where he is and am so confused at how to deal with it.....he expressed the kind of wife he wanted---"One who had a few beers with him, watched the TV shows he likes and lets him do whatever he wants" That is what I fear will happen endlessly. His lifestyle seems so covert and trying to figure out what needs to be done is like grabbing jello. How can a decision be made????? Now Plan A is so confusing to me cause I don't see any hope that we can work on anything.....How do you negotiate with the WS to totally separate from the lover??? when he can't overcome his primary addiction. What does negotiate mean? I can't seem to live with one more lie....

Hi Tossedwave ~<P>The unfortunate reality is that you can not successfully negotiate with an alcoholic. Selfishness, lies, resentments and fears seem to be the sum of their existance, and there's just nothing to be done while they remain untreated.<P>As for the A, and your lack of affection....<P>There's something you need to understand about ENs and alcoholics. When you fill the ENs of an alcoholic, you do so at the expense of yourself. Their "needs" are not healthy, and by meeting those needs, we do what is called enabling and creating a comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior. Alcoholics are masters at manipulations and turning the blame for a situation on you. They do not ever take responsibility for their own choices and actions. By accepting responsibility for an alcoholics bad behavior - you are filling a "need" for the alcoholic - and hurting yourself. They need you to stay quiet and not make waves, accept responsiblity, and never ever interfere with their primary relationship: the Bottle.<P>I can see some parallels in your story to mine. My H had his most blatant, devastating affair a year after I joined Al-Anon and started pulling myself together as an individual. He hated my changes, because I wasn't making it comfortable anymore. I was starting to take care of my own responsiblities, which denied him a reason to scream at me and blame me for the problems in his life. <P>Unfortunately, because I got healthy, there was a vacuum created, and the first co-dependent, sick woman that he ran into stepped into fill it. <P>The fact of the matter is that you CAN NOT fill ENs for an alocoholic. You CAN NOT negotiate. You can Plan A - but do it for you. I Plan A'd after I filed for divorce last October, and my H did try to come home. Unfortunately, he wouldn't stop dating and I decided I had had enough, and had him served this April.<P>Plan A was wonderful for me. I became a better person, and I also finally realized that I was capable of being a good wife. I was able to successfully hold up my end of the bargain. That he couldn't reciprocate was a problem, and one that I chose to deal with through divorce. I have alot more confidence and self-esteem however, by learning how to Plan A. Just don't count on it to save your marriage, as long as your H is still drinking.<P>The reality is that my H may never get help. I talk to him daily still, and he mentions little things about his drinking - he's very defensive about it, but he'll bring it up by saying things like "I've quit drinking to lose weight." and yet I'll see him with a drink 2 days later. I don't have to say a word, and he'll be rushing to explain to me that he's modified his new drinking rules to include that drink being "OK". Whatever. I just nod and say OK. It's not my issue or my problem and he's going to have to deal with it on his terms. He is obviously worried that maybe I am right....unfortunately I don't think his pride will let him ask for help. <P>The reality is that this disease may kill him. I can choose to let this fear drag me down and ruin my life, or I can accept it, and get on with my life. <P>I love him very much. Unfortunately I can't survive as a human being while in proximity with his disease any longer.

Bramble Rose, Your words are straight to the point and I appreciate you are not sugarcoating anything. I know that the alcohol has to be addressed with all the other problems we are in now. I know we can't go back to where we were before the A. Alcoholism is another form of waywardness and absenteeism of a marriage partner. I don't think I fully understand Plan A, though---How can you do it for yourself? I thought the main objective was to negotiate with WS to abstain from OW in a decent and loving way. If there is no hope of an addicted person working on marriage, how do you Plan A? Why do you Plan A?<P>My husband came home at 2a.m. Tuesday morning and admitted he was with OW. He told me because I said the lies are worse than the deceptions. Now I fear he thinks he can continue cause he is being truthful. He is so confused but never takes a step to work on anything---himself or the marital problems. I do not want to do this anymore and my counselor said that I need to set a limit and tell him what I want and by when. (work on something or leave) I do not know if this violates Plan A. Help me understand how to Plan A for myself? <P>Thanks for all your help---Are you happy now that you are divorced? Is there a freedom or relief? OR does the loss of a spouse bring other problems?<P>I am a firm believer in not giving up and I will work and fight for something till my heart is bleeding. I know that has to do with my codependency. Never know when to say "uncle"...scary!!!! I think reconciliation is worth the effort and struggle but I know I cannot survive as a human being either while living in proximity to the drinking. Things are not lookin good.