Bless all you WS's who want to work on your marriage and thank you for posting here. I have some questions--I really do want to understand my WH's feelings and behavior. H has gone back and forth between seeming really to want to try with the M and just wanting out. Both of these phases have occurred both when he was lying to me about continuing the A and when he (I think) actually had (temporarily as it turns out) stopped it. So my questions are: what things that your spouse did most made you want to end the A and work on the marriage, and what actions made you want to run screaming out the door? What made you go back to the OP after breaking it off? Were there times when you told your spouse you had to have a D and then regretted it and wanted to try again?<P>And finally, though I know the answer to this one, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts: why does the mention of the A by the BS cause such a huge reaction in the WS? From the BS's point of view--the WS DID the things, we just TALK about them, and yet (at least in my case), WH asks me to apologize to him for bringing up the A, especially the sexual part. Yes, I admit, at first I did it in a really nasty, vile way, gut-wrenching pain speaking for me (I know this was very wrong, destructive and painful for him and I am sorry). But even if I mention it in a calm way, this is a big LB.<P>Many thanks in advance for any responses, octavia99

For me the issue is very clear. After 28 years (23 married) I was still disconnected and alone (despite years of counselling, and effort to find each other), the kids are raised, and I was looking at spending another 20-30 years with essentially a stranger (one I respected, but did not like very much), this was too awful to even contemplate so I stuffed it in a box, and just tried to keep my nose to the Christian grindstone...duty, at all costs, people are not important, only vows, and the "picture". <P>There are reasons of course, individual psychological reasons, as well as assessments of whether we (as 2 independent people) should be a couple. Neither of us is a bad person, and have no issues with drugs, alcohol, sexual addictions, overt abuse, etc...but there are FOO issues, and huge psychological differences between us. These issues have combined in marriage to make us very unhappy people, and unable/unwilling to be "in-love". So at mid-life we had to deal with being extremely lonely/estranged, as well as the usual issues, kids leaveing home, ill parents, tired of the endless work grind etc., and wondering if this is all there is to life, not even a best friend to love and share it with...ever....just endless "duty" and responsibility, and stupid "I'm fines's" when folks ask how are you, when really you are dying inside. <P>I found myself turning into a cynical, bitter old man, I love life, I am a happy go lucky caring guy, optimistic, curious, and yet I was starting to hate myself. Nor did my wife seem any happier, and said many of the same things to me about herself. It became more and more obvious that we should seperate (her idea for years, I resisted), but we had not done anything about it. Finally I was questioning whether I had the Christian marital doctrine right, God could not possibly mean marriage to be like this, and I was really tired of hearing people say you just bear it, cause "they" know God's will for me and my wife...yeah right. <P>Anyways that was my emotional state when I fell in love (quite by surprise) with someone who first I made friends with. I have read all the stuff here, and my wife and I are currently in counseling with the Harley's (I am nothing if not obsessively fair, so one more try I guess), no need for anyone to inform me about this stuff (or say the usual things), and many of you know my history allready, this post is just help octavia to maybe understand her H.<P>When I realized where my heart had gone, I pretty much immediately told my W I agreed we should divorce. I did not think it fair or right in any sense to decieve her re my feelings. Yes I did decieve her while I tried to understand what was happening to me, cause I knew she would interfere. This I think is something I hear the BS complain about alot, this awful deception, and why didn't they get told so they could have a better chance. Plain and simple that is not how human beings function. If your spouse would have told you, then your marriage was working at some level for them. On the other hand if they want out, they are leaveing no matter what you do....in between is a continuum of the rest of us. In my case, I thought my W basically did not like/want me much, and was just there cause she needed someone to take care of her (and a sort of emotional inertia), and that sorta thing, she tolerated me, but did not love me. So while I felt a sense of loss/failure, and some trepidation, was not too difficult to make the final emotional adjustment to actually say let's get divorced. When she then informed me she really didn't want to get divorce, I got really angry, sort of the ultimate betrayal, now after all these years of estrangement, anger, unhappiness, NOW you want to work at the marriage? I don't think so. In my case, she said she was sorry for some issues (very serious issues), and was willing to change. My problem was a confliction of thinking it was finally over, could try to get on with my life in a more emotionally healthy manner, and a lot of feelings from our history together, not wanting to hurt her, as well as the confusion of my love for ow and what did that mean. In my mind, and heart, when I loved another, I divorced my wife, she just didn't know it, and when I told her, I felt she had no right to object, much less try to stop me. She didn't know about the ow when I ageed to divorce, but suspected, and found out very shortly thereafter. At which point I lost all credibility, and the issue stopped being the very real problems of our long marriage, rather that I was just messed up (the so-called fog), and that as soon as I was placed back in a cell (no-contact) and ministered to vigorously with rubber hoses and bright lights, all would be well, and I would discover/brainwashed how much I really did love my wife. That I was just a stupid/immoral WS who could not possibly understand his own feelings.<P>So octavia, that is the answer to your first question. We go back and forth cause we do think we have some ability to understand what we want, but if we are reasonably honest, we do conceed it is possile we somehow are emotionally messed up, and maybe still could be in-love with our spouse. The swings are enormous, cause our lives (and others) are at stake. We do not want to continue a loveless marriage, nor do we want to lose a loving future. And when the BS acts/suggests we are just too stupid to know that we belong in our marriages, it makes us crazy, and very angry. You are essentially telling us we don't count, that you know better, that just makes us more certain we need to leave, cause you don't love us, you just want to control/use us, which is why most of us leave in the first place. The anger is needed to make the break, to get away from you, the worst thing a BS can do is make us angry, and you should become an expert at not making us angry if you want the maximum chance to restore the marriage. Some think the BS has every right to be angry, the WS would agree, and we do, the point is we don't care if you are angry. This is about survival, and we figure your anger is a tool to be used against us, so we react predictably. I have said terrible things to my wife, things I never said before, and do not mean, and I have come close to hitting her, all arising from intense altercations where she was challengeing my feelings (and would not stop, despite repeated pleadings by me to do so)...it felt like she was trying to kill part of me. I cannot speak for other ws, and no doubt some are just compulsive self-serving jerks, but for some of us, this is a deadly serious business. I do not love lightly, and I do not make committments lightly, when I decided to divorce my wife, it was for real (as real as the committment when I married her), and I feel unwilling to withdraw it without very good reason, and that I "owe" her is a totally inadequate reason. Anger from the BS says to the WS see what you did, you owe me...... well....sorry, but we don't owe you anything (unless we are gonna make intimate relationships a contract, rather than a freely made choice). Still, we can't help but feel guilty, so we get angry in self-defense.<P>Nothing my spouse did made me want to stay. She thinks plan A is for someone else, that I should just do what she says cause she knows best. I found the MB, and we went to retrouvaille weekend, and I readily agreed to counselling and pastoral ministering as well. She still refuses to deal with my feelings about what marriage should be, and whether we are suited for each other.......she prefers to take the you made vows route, and the woe is me route, with a liberal sprinkling in of you are a bas**** and should just leave. Saying as soon as I start acting like a husband, she will act like a wife...sigh. All of this stuff is counter-productive IMO. I would have liked a plan A I think, but it would also have made me feel guiltier, so I am just as relieved that she did not. It validates to me that I am not in a fog, we really are not connected, and doubt we ever can be. So if you really want your H (and I wonder why many of you do sometimes, based on the stories presented), the absolute best thing to do is plan A, no anger, and let him decide what he wants...ON HIS OWN. For some the plan B is needed too eventually. I realize your H may be nothing like me, I am by temperament a rationalist INTP (architect), in case you haven't guessed by now. We don't make decisions lightly, and must be persuaded to change, not guilted, or coerced (anger). Strangely though an INTP I need the emotional bond of a deeply felt vulnerable/unconditional love, it has hurt mightily being alone, I will not go back. I don't believe love is a decision, I have 23 years of experience with that approach. There is other stuff needed to, stuff that cannot be spelled out in any book, or found through any behavioural modification effort either. The experience with ow was of sufficient depth that I feel comfortable I understand this now. The ow is not my motivation, she is not leaveing her husband despite the same issues (and reciprocal love for me), she feels a sacrificial (hers) marriage is possible and can live without her EN being met, her motivation is the pain and guilt she feels when thinking of leaveing. I have honored her decision, and referred her to MB. As for me, if MB is right, then somehow my feelings will change, if they do not, then seems only emotionally healthy for my wife and I to part, I do not want to be the source of her unhappiness, nor her mine, I'd rather be alone, if I am alone anyways. We have talked about this, I could "fake" it all, smile, meet her EN, and go through the motions, suppose could even be reasonably tolerable, and I may have (not understanding what the missing ache has always meant), had I not fallen in love with another. But I have no regrets, I don't want to be half alive, IMO there can be no greater emotional injury done to another than to wake up in their bed and not be passionately in love with them, just be there out of history, feeling sorry for em, vows, etc. She does not want this either, but cannot understand when I am asked if I love her, I can only say I care about you, but I do not love you as a best friend, as my other half I am incomplete without, nor does she me, I know, I have always known.<P>As for going back to the OP, that is not an option, I have made my feelings known, as has she, we will attempt resolution our own marriages as the ethics of our culture (and our own beliefs) require. Whether an as yet unwritten future is with our spouses, or one with, one without, there is no going back, if both single, who knows. The point is, you cannot live in 2 worlds, people should come to understand that quickly on their own (if they are ethical people), and without coercion, will for themselves reconcille their lives one way or another. Unfortuneately many seem to need a little help, hence the plan B. It would be nice if we were all robots, and could just get repaired, or modified to "fit" right, but humans are messy, and all different, and all don't fit. IMO BS should assess whether they even want to be married as well, they seem to have a fog of their own in some cases, and of course children skew the picture, making the parent who is more responsible shoulder the greater emotional burden, cause their leaveing threshold is higher (and hence the other can be more selfish). IMO everybody should not be married to who they are, humans are not interchangeable, and it makes a huge difference who you are married to, a measureable real mental health, emotional health, physical health difference. <P>Your last question...I have only told my wife once I wanted a divorce (she has said so countless times), that was the recent one, I don't regret it, and unless I cave in (yet to be seen whether I can escape my cultural/spiritual programming), or unless MB is correct and I somehow change, I will proceed with the D, and I will not regret it, cause I feel is the only honest option in the absence of a true bonded love. I will take care of my wife (that is an obligation I have incurred), we will always be emotionally connected (by our history), and I am willing to give her emotional resources if needed, but I can do all this as an ex-spouse. I have asked her what I do for her as a dutiful )as opposed to in-love) husband, and she has not said anything any man couldn't do for her (say if I died or something). She doesn't need me, she just needs someone, and I am the one filling the spot, that is not ok, least it isn't for me. <P>Wanting to try again means would I date her if we were single, and the answer is no, I would not. She is a nice person, many good traits, but we do not fit, and I just make her unhappy and sad when I am being me. I don't think it is right she change, or I change to fit each other, people cannot really do that, and is painful, not happy. I do not believe one should give any consideration whatsover to what anyone else thinks about the marital decisions of two people. Those two people have to look at each other every day for the rest of their lives, if they are not in-love that is awful...so saying one should stay together because of grown children (the family argument), or the extended family, or the community at large only means no one cares about me, or how I feel, just that I exist to carry on everyone elses picture of how society/family should be. That may be ok in many instances, civic duty and all, but in the case of intimacy one should be totally selfish, and two people should choose each other only when BOTH want that person more than life itself (IMO that is how truelove works). Even Dr. Phil, and the Harley's (and every other psychologist with any brains) say sacrificial marriage is no good, is tantamount to being an emotional prisoner, you should choose someone cause you want them. Not cause you settle for them, not cause you are scared to be alone, not cause you have a history (kids and family), but cause you (both of you, takes two) WANT them more than anything else. Then you have the basis for marital love, for resolving issues, for all that stuff. If you err, if that is not the basis of your marriage, then it should end (for both best interests), and learning from one's experience, those who desire marriage can do a better job of selecting and fitting a different life partner.<P>I am sure that is more than you asked for octavia, but that is the mindset of this ws, many here think I am a self-centered knucklehead in a major fog (zero visibility), maybe so, but I do try to write down exactly what I think/feel for whatever value it contributes to this place, and I do contemplate on what others say as well.<P>

Dear sad_n_lonely, I have only a short time to write now, but I wanted to say thank you for your response. Ouch, a tad strong-worded in spots, but I asked for the unvarnished truth and it is very enlightening, esp. paragraph six. First of all let me say, based on what you've written, I wouldn't join those who say you are just in a fog, it does seem that as you say, there really isn't much to save re: your marriage. And I certainly don't think everyone in the world should stay married just because they are married, and I wouldn't want a H who had no love for me to stay with me because of vows. As I understand it, the Harley/MB principles are not about dooming dutiful brainwashed automatons to loveless marriages--they are a route to take to give whatever love may actually be there the best chance to be recognized and nutured.<P>What many a BS here is wrestling with are the conflicting signals from a WS who seems at times really still to love him/her. At least that's what I was inquiring about--in fact, the resonating emptiness in your tale has highlighted for me how very many indications my H has given me that he indeed does still love me, despite the serious pre-A problems in our M. In our case, duty, vows, society, etc. have not been mentioned by either of us as a motivation for staying together. H has told me quite plainly he needs to think of his own happiness, that he wanted to see who loved him more (while he was still at the height of the A, he told me that certainly I loved him more than OW did...) and who would make him happy. He said nothing at first about the happiness of moi (or of the OW for that matter). At first he said he didn't love me anymore, then he said he loved two people, but differently, later he said he had never stopped loving me. Like you, he does not consider or express these things lightly. I know he never says he loves me just to "placate" me, because at many times when I desperately needed to hear that, he said no such thing or quite the opposite; and his statements changed in increments (and sometimes change back again), he has never told me only what I wanted to hear. <P>So I think that is what is really meant by fog--not that WS's are too "dumb" to know what they want, rather that they often act as if (and in my H's case explicitly say) that they themselves actually DON'T know what they want. In those cases, it can be very difficult for a BS to understand and interpret a WS's actions.<P>I have to run now, but it occurs to me that no one in this forum has ever pointed out that the MB principles (and what we are all struggling to achieve here) have something in common with the reason many WS's such as yourself give as motivation for an A--it is taken for granted that romantic love between two individuals is the birthright and ultimate goal of a person. Of course I feel that way, too, and I'm not knocking it!!! But one relationship as the single most important thing in one's life, and that relationship bearing all the weight of whether a person is happy or sad, fulfilled or empty, this is not a concept that occurs in all cultures across time and space. With all the expectations a marriage in Western society faces, is it any wonder so many fail? Lots of anthropological literature on this. Just something to think about. Thanks again, hope your moniker needs changing soon. octavia99

This is the spouse of sad_n_lonely. He said to post on some of the old posts he written. But I finally got the nerve to write this time. Yes we have had counseling for the last 3 years. H did not say that he did not follow the advice of the counselor. He has stated to me that he will do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it, and how he wants to do it. This is not to critize H, but corrections need to be made in his statements. H thinks there are huge psychological differences between us. We would not of married if there were differences of that increment. Yes we are both strong powered in power struggles. We had the same beliefs in religion (which is different now), raising children, health (which is different now), exercise, outdoor activities (which is different now), family, and more. We have not been a loving couple for the last 5 years. I have not had my EN meet by my H. He spends a lot of hours on the computer. I look at what God gave us, the great outdoors as entertainment. His Christian Doctrine has changed, I married H with all my heart and still love him with all my heart even with the affair. He seems to beable to set aside the Christian Doctrine and leave this marriage and move onto another without any regrets (stated by him). Yes H and OW fell in love, he has had the fantasy (which he does not believe in). He feels we will not have the love he needs. He did not tell me about the divorce until too far involved. That is if she were to leave her husband, which she (according to H) states that she will never leave. So my H was used by a woman. Counseling through the Harleys, states that H will make excuses for OW because she is the apple of his eye, and he looks at me with negative comments. I never wanted a divorce, but the answer came out as a cry for help. I loved my husband and wanted affection from him, attention, and love. H is a difficult man to live with, and friends and family have told me that I have done a great job tending to the family and him. We started a business, and if it wasn't for me the business wouldn't of did as well as it did. I did the phones, dispatching and bookwork. H has very wide mood swings. I have actually told him about the signs and symptoms that I observe. One day he seems to be civilized and kind, and the next on the verge of breaking the enclosing walls. Yes he has been quite mean to me, called me names, did hit me once on the hand, and just rude. Since he started the affair with the OW about 1 year ago- he has not been actively involved in the childrens activities. He has focused on himself, and has done some activities with the children. But you can tell if the interest is really there or just being there cause one has to. As far as Plan A. He stated that totally wrong. I have all intentions for doing Plan A. He has not told you that counseling through Harley, that I was to focus on issues and Plan A will come pretty quick. I am dealing with a father that had a stroke over 1 1/2 months ago, that has left his R eye inverted and double vision. This has put more pressure on my mom. So I am there to help her as much as I can. Plus I am going through menopause problems. Therefore, I do plan on doing Plan A. Yes he stated that we went to Retrouvaille and pastoral counseling. As far as retrouvaille, he has stated that it is a good program as far as learning how to communicate with each other, but he feels that a lot of the people out there are easily manipulated. I do not agree. I find these people to be warm and would love to have them as friends for us to interact with. As far as pastoral counseling. We had 2 counseling sessions with the Lutheran Church we attend. Pastor and asst. Pastor told H that you made a commitment before God, H does not believe in that and it makes me quite sad. He says he does not make committments lightly, what about our marriage? He states that he is glad I did not do Plan A, therefore he would of felt guilty. This is suppose to validate that he is not in a fog? As far as the MB program goes. He doesn't see where one can change. Counseling through the Harley's has shown us that this marriage can work. But the path needs to be followed closely and once you get off the track you start at step one again. H needs to totally do hurdle 1, get the OW totally out of the picture. So yes, we have problems, and hope I have cleared some of the statements that H made. I am still in love with my H and Jennifer sees that I do have love towards my husband. H is definitely in a fog, big time. He has signs and symptoms in abundance. I am not degrading him or making him look like a bad guy. He is a good man, and I love him but the story needed to be cleared on issues that were not correct. Work with the Harley's. I find Harley's to be quite frank, and she has become a good advocate of the BS. Hope this will help. This was not easy for me to post, I am not one to converse about our family problems with strangers and the whole world to see. Just wanted to clarify statements that I felt were not quite true.<p>[This message has been edited by thinker (edited June 04, 2001).]

Thinker:<P>My WS never fully verbalized his feelings, but I'm sure had he, his words would have matched sad_and_lonely. I've heard some of it like "I thought you didn't want me." and "She always asks for a divorce." <P>My heart goes out to you. The best thing you have going for you is that he is still actually at home. He's DEEP DEEP IN THE FOG though. As I'm sure you read, he has been chastised, fought with... but he can't see anything right now. Good luck to you.<P>I can't imagine the pain you must feel reading all of his old responses about his "love" for the OW. He is the king of justifying his adulterous actions. You have my admiration. Keep plan aing.<P>Sad_and_lonely:<P>Did you follow the advice of ANYONE concerning fixing your marriage????? You seem to have made up your mind that you are right and it's your way only. Your staying in your marriage because you're the martyr, right? Or maybe because the OW won't leave her family and where would you be????? Get off your high horse and FEEL some of what your wife is going through. Your way is NOT the Christian way.

Dear Thinker, Thank you very much for what I understand was a difficult post for you to write. Yes, I rather thought things were more complicated than sad-n-lonely let on. I just didn't want to make a judgment on his perspective when I didn't know the other side. Maybe his extreme defensiveness and anger reminded me so much of my H's that I just backed down. What I wanted to say was---why did you try the years of counselling if you hadn't thought there was something to save? Why are you trying now? And why, if the love had been gone for so long, why didn't you do the honorable thing and express this and move one BEFORE the A?? Either the A was the catalyst for wanting out of the M or it wasn't. If, as many BS's say, oh, it's not the A, the M was over long before that--well, why did they stick around until OP showed up? People DO get divorced in less messy ways, retain their integrity and respect for themselves and others, and THEN go on to seek and find happiness in other relationships. An A while still married DOES change things, it is NOT the same as "growing apart" and "moving on."<P>Anyhow, I was both depressed and thoughtful after reading your H's post, thinker. Depressed because so much of it sounded like my H. Thoughtful because it gave me insight into the mindset of a WS and motivation to be better with Plan A. When H started being mean and demanding and critical today, I Plan A'd all the way, I kept it up, and H became calmer and happier and WE GOT ALONG. I kept thinking, if my H feels at all like s 'n l, then I really have no choice but to be as understanding as possible and do the best I can with how I act towards him--if I want a chance at saving the marriage.<P>Thinker, I felt as if I could've written parts of your post. But for some details, the words could've been mine--my H too is regarded by most acquaintances as a "difficult" person. Even in semi-joking, my H has often asked me to deal with others for him, saying, "you know me, I hate people." He also has very wide mood swings--he has been more violent towards me and towards inanimate objects than your H has. But...he has a soft core inside, a sensitive, perceptive, caring core; it's something I rarely see these days, but I know it's still there. That's what I pray will come out again in our M.<P>H told me, probably correctly, that I was the first of us ever to mention divorce during our (pre-A) marital problems. That is probably true. But like you, I was SO starved for affection, love, and also respect, I was beginning to get despondent thinking about being in a seemingly loveless M for the rest of my life. I never wanted a D, and he knew that, he knew it was a cry for help, as you say. What I had mentioned was not being able to continue in the M as it was becoming--he put me down constantly, my intelligence, my appearance, my behaviour, everything. My self-esteem was so totally crushed, I had trouble doing much of anything while we were together. This was all his prelude to the A, I believe, because the EA was already underway.<P>Like you and the biz., my H and I started a joint project. I am now learning just how much our interactions with that project have contributed to our M problems. Like you, I have had a lot of stresses to deal with and that has made Plan A very difficult to adhere to at times. I haven't given up yet though. My H even told me the other day that what he needed was for me to "give him something nice to come back to." Now if that isn't as clear a signal as possible that Plan A is the "ticket" to another chance for the M...But is it hard...he has resumed contact with OW and that tears me up. I see now that reminding him of the effects of his actions on me is useless at this point. He KNOWS how it affects me. He feels bad for it. He can't help himself now. I think he is right, he is actually hurting more than I am. I would never have believed it, but it may be true.<P>I have to go now, but I want to say best of luck, be strong, and I pray you will find happiness and peace soon. If you want to email, let me know; I can't do it much (am working out of the country with H now), but if public postings inhibit you and you want to share thoughts, I am open to that. octavia99<BR>

octavia99 - I would like to very much email to you. You seem to be a Christian, and that is very important to myself and my beliefs. This is a difficult situation my H and I are in. Prayers are needed, guidance is needed, and a kind heart on both our parts are needed. Someone to talk to beside the Harley's would be beneficial to me. Thank you for offering.

Dear thinker, I'm glad you'd like to email. Now, how do we exchange addresses? Right now, the addresses I have are known to people in my scholarly community and I'm reluctant to post them here (H's A has serious implications for his job status). If you don't feel comfortable posting your email address here, I will set up a different internet account ASAP and post that address.<P>I would very much like to discuss the issue of maintaining faith throughout this, of trying to improve oneself, and especially of adhering to the basic Christian doctrine of being kind and loving not only to those who are good to you, but to those who have caused you pain. That's really what it's all about, isn't it? I look forward to corresponding with you, octavia99

Octavia & Thinker, I too would love to correspond regarding how to apply Christian values to a completely un-Christian situation. I am really struggling with the seperation and depression right now. I understand that I haven't been part of this thread and you might not feel comfortable bringing me into the fold but if you would like additional input I would love to communicate. My address is in my profile, I think, but in case it's not dgferret@hotmail.com. Thanks

Thinker & Sad N Lonely, this might be a stupid question and I'm sure the answer lies in the web site somewhere but I can't find it. How do you get direct counseling with the Harley's and how much does it cost?<P>Dave

Dave... go to marriage builders main page and follow links to counselling stuff. It is done by phone, and that seems to work ok (as a process, something they allready know), you pay by credit card. I can't speak to results, we have a long way to go, but they do know their stuff, and do hold each accountable...but like any counselling, it depends on how much you put into it. As the ws I am treated with respect and caring, it actually feels pretty good, and not exactly what is happening with spouse (although she does try, it is just so hard for her, and I am not much help).

The number for Marriage Builders is 888-639-1639. This is the secretary that will help you. Hope to email, looking forward to it.