Since I'm in my third attempt at reconcilliation with my WS, I'm trying to not make the same plays that may have caused difficulty for us the first two times. I've fully into plan A this time and haven't LB'd in quite some time.<P>I've pretty much given up on talking about the A with my wife these days, but like most BS's, truely wonder if my WS is keeping away from the OM. The topic never just "comes up" - including her never telling me she is <B>not</B> seeing OM since our last retry began. We were in counselling last week and when our counsellor asked her about breaking off the A and my WS acknowledged, the counsellor launched into a 5 minute speech about "not hidding anything", as it would be a waste of time for all of us (I don't know if she was doing this as a matter of course, or if she sensed something about my WS response - I've given up trying to "read" my wife).<P>Anyhow, I want to ask her if she is still seeing OM, but affraid that I'd be LB'ing by doing so. On the other hand, my WS is fully versed in lying about seeing OM for the past many months already, so I don't know what I expect - although I guess if she admits she is, I know where we are at (saying "no" is pretty empty for me nowadays).<P>What is the general concensus around here? Thanks!<P>

SF - first, I apologize for being a bit harsh in a previous post.<P>I think the consensus will be that asking about "it" is uaually a bad idea because it provokes a defensive reaction - always a sure LB. Let the counselor do the dirty work, as long as your W is participating.<P>WAT

My H & I went through 7 separations & reconciliations, now in recovery for over a year, so I know a bit about reaching that point where you might feel like asking doesn't have a whole lot to do with the truth of the response.<P>The other thing to consider...is if she really isn't in contact...asking immediately brings the OP to mind.<P>Being in counseling is very good. The c can be harsher or point out things that your W just wouldn't receive if it were you...the "same old same old".<P>Is your wife being accountable, telling you where she is, or was, and really there? Do you have email, voice mail passwords? Cell phone records? Do her actions line up with her words (believe the actions if not). If she says she needs privacy, I found that to be a real red flag.<P>I found the more reconciliations, the less I was willing to try to trust...the walls just went up. Promises didn't mean much. There wasn't anything my H could promise that he hadn't already promised...and broken, some numerous times.<P>But once he truly was trustworthy and not "protecting" me with dishonesty, it took several months, but my trust began to come back--scaring the heck out of me! But that was only a phase as well. I think the hallmark of his change of purpose was that he no longer cared about "privacy", he opened his life up to me in every way that he could, because I needed reassurance...lots of reassurance. He just didn't do that in the previous reconciliations.<P>And the other thing, if at some point she does tell you there has been contact--phone or email--thank her for telling and remain calm. Much harder to do of course if she tells you the affair has been back on. It can be very difficult for the WS to tell, especially if it was "nothing" because they know the BS is likely to be upset. And if it is "something" then, they don't want to tell either, the WS can slide back into bad decision-making fairly easily--the fog--if they are through withdrawal.<P>So, try to make it safe for her to be honest--whatever details that may entail.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Here's a bit of free advice (second hand from a wonderful counselor I/we saw for over a year):<P>What Lor says is right. (Big surprise...she's right alot!)<P>Try to remember, an affair establishes LYING as the norm, especially for conflict avoiders.<P>Often, in the history of the marriage relationship, speaking the truth has brought negative responses. <P>Instead of an atmosphere of loving honesty, which the Bible calls "speaking the truth in love", defensiveness and mean spirited finger pointing are the 'reward' thrown at the partner who attempts to be transparent.<P>What I've learned...(I hope)...If you truly want "Honesty" rather than a 'Peaceful' facade as the hallmark of your marriage, <P>You have to start REWARDING it with gentleness, humility and a soft, warm response. <P>After fifteen years of defensiveness and hiding behind a holier than thou mask, I had to actually practice saying (take a deep breath first), <P>"OUCH, that was hard to hear, <P>but, <P>THANK YOU FOR BEING TOTALLY HONEST. <P>I know I need to grow in alot of areas, and you are the only one who knows me well enough and LOVES me enough to help me become a better, more mature person."<P>The part about loving me was an assertion that I made repeatedly, throughout his affair and subsequent denial and finally our reconciliation...He now admits that the affair had nothing to do with me and everything to do with his own midlife state of mind.<P>It's not a brilliant new marriage philosophy...it is just Biblical Tough Love, like God loves us...<P>Easy? HECK NO... Worth it? Well, there are five people and a pound puppy under this roof that think so.<P>hugs,<BR>lizzie

Hi SF,<P>First I would like to say that an LB is relative to the condition. Some things said and done while in plan a may be considered an LB, but the same thing in the plan b mode may not be. <P>So there is no hard fast rule here. The purpose of the question and the motive is important. I would like to briefly outline (can I actually be brief?) what I did. <P>H tried to come back 8 times in 4 months. H did know the conditions for his return was to going to be allowed (by his family) only if we had the ability to trust him. This was what he had to want to do for us. The condition was complete and honest information of any contact with OW, H was not to initiate contact with OW unless W was present and it was for an agreed reason, all communication sources were identified and access given to the BS, accounts closed as requested, whereabouts made known. OW accused me of watching H like a 'hawk'. I felt she has been like a mosquito (blood sucking leech). Oh, I digress. <P>H was not allowed home until he could make his family (primarily me) comfortable and meet our needs). I knew deep down in my heart that this would take time, but if he was willing to put for the effort and my heart was still in the acceptable mode the door was still open. Well the door opened for 1 last time. I told H that I was finally at my limit and if nothing happened immediately, his family was moving on without him. Hmmmph..... H already knew the rules. After a lot of dragging his feet (in the prior months - because he thought he could have his cake and eat it to), that he saw I was not joking and prepared to carry through with my word. NOTE: I had a lot of support here and I must say that it was the emotional support that helped me see that I had worth in myself and could actually find happiness without my H that was a lifesaver.<P>So I would periodically ask H if it was ok to ask if there had been any communication with OW. H said no he was not upset. This became and still is a daily status question (going on the 5th week). There have been regressive periods. I had to listen to H say that he came back out of obligation and I told him that was not necessary and he could leave us completely (just pay his obligations - as we did not want his pity). This was recent (a couple of days ago). H has not moved out nor is he showing signs of it. <P>OW is relentless, H said today that he will be firmer with her in his resolve to cut off contact but she calls at least once a day. He ignores most of her calls but some of them do get through since his business phone # still has not been changed. You see a piece of him does like to hear her voice. YUCK!!!!! I am looking for that piece and will send the LB fairie to tear it out (sorry - just an inside joke). <P>So based on my experience, I do not consider asking the WS about the OP is an LB. But it does depend on the reason and needs to be used with disgression. I also made sure OW knew my reason for asking. I would actually tell him I was unconfortable and not knowing was hampering our recovery. Hmmm........<P>Well, this is my 2 cents. <P>L.<BR> <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alias:<BR><B>Try to remember, an affair establishes LYING as the norm, especially for conflict avoiders.<P>What I've learned...(I hope)...If you truly want "Honesty" rather than a 'Peaceful' facade as the hallmark of your marriage, <P>You have to start REWARDING it with gentleness, humility and a soft, warm response. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Am I ever glad I stumbled onto this thread this morning!! I was also wondering the very same thing, i.e., whether or not to ask about any contact with the OP. The answers here make so much good sense and once again, I have to say thank GOD for this wonderful website! <P>Somehow, I am managing to do the Plan A on my own (H doesn't even know about this site), and we are about 2 months into it. So far, so good but we do have our rough moments. One thing I've noticed on my own is that any time I bring up in any way or fashion ANYthing about my H's EA, he immediately undergoes a subtle change. His eyes lock into place, his whole body assumes a defensive manner--and I found out the hard way everything that all of you have said. It's just not a good idea to bring it all up and only invites negative feelings and emotions to happen on both parts. That he is still here with me and is trying his best to be like he used to be with me says a lot, I think. We've come a long way in a few months and although neither of us (or any of us, for that matter) knows what the future holds, at least our today is bearable. What'd done is done and we can learn from our past mistakes, but today is the only day that really matters.<P>Wishing all a great week...<BR>Winny<P>

I'm glad I aked for your all's opinions first!<P>By the way my spouse is acting lately, my instinct tells me she's either still in contact with OM or fully into withdrawl - and my instinct has been dead-on almost every time so far.<P>Therefore, I don't see anything to be gained by asking her - although, I guess a best-case scenario would be her telling me that she was still with OM and I could be "rewarding" (as above) to help reestablish honesty with her.<P>Best left for later, I suppose...<P>Thanks!

Everytime I would ask that question I would get really angry myself and start to rage at my H. Not good for making myself look good in his eyes. I stopped asking, but I know they are in contact about "work". Whenever he goes to the town she lives in he always hurries back. No overnights, unless he takes someone with him to monitor the situation. Not my idea, his. <BR>He is here with me, he could have left. I judge his actions more strongly than his words. I know the OW is devestated, because he had her convinced that he was getting out of this life. Real conflict avoider type-stuff. She has now quit her job, because she wanted out of her life too, and now she is going back to being a farm girl. Somehow I think her glamour will wear off. The conditions that made him attractive to her are no longer there. But I really have stopped asking.<P>Once, a few weeks ago I intercepted a cell phone message she had left (Sunday night at 10:30pm). The next day he kept asking about phone calls, who had called, had anyone called etc. several times. She obviously told him she had called and left a message and he was afraid I might get it and know they were still in contact. I said, no, no messages. I think that really got them both thinking. I wasn't mad, but someone was lying, and not the usual suspects. Of course, no one could confront me with lying, now could they? We all know how unbalanced we feel when we are lied to. I don't get angry anymore. If he's here with me, she ain't gaining any ground. That's one good thing. Keep plan "A" ing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tophat:<BR><B>Everytime I would ask that question I would get really angry myself and start to rage at my H. Not good for making myself look good in his eyes. <P>He is here with me, he could have left. I judge his actions more strongly than his words. <P> Somehow I think her glamour will wear off. The conditions that made him attractive to her are no longer there. But I really have stopped asking.<P>.... no one could confront me with lying, now could they? We all know how unbalanced we feel when we are lied to. I don't get angry anymore. If he's here with me, she ain't gaining any ground. That's one good thing. Keep plan "A" ing. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tophat,<BR>I agree with you totally! Same type of things going on here, too. I find that the more I keep my cool and keep my anger in check, the more he opens up to me, feels much more at ease around me. This must be the 'safe' atmosphere Dr. H talks about. You are so right about how uncomfortable we all feel when a lie is told. It's almost as if our behavior screams out "Hey! I just lied!" So, I figure, no need to beat him over the head with it. He knows that I know each time he lies--and I think he appreciates the fact that I don't rant and rave (he feels bad enough already). In fact, the lies have all but stopped.<P>Yep..keep on Plan A'ing. As difficult as it may get sometimes, it truly DOES work. <P>to Spiritfilled:<BR> You wrote: "Therefore, I don't see anything to be gained by asking her - although, I guess a best-case scenario would be her telling me that she was still with OM and I could be "rewarding" (as above) to help reestablish honesty with her."<P>YES and yes again! I firmly do believe that someday our spouses will feel comfortable enough to open up and share their innermost feelings with us about their episode. Then, we can truly reward them with our love and understanding. After all, each of us can fall prey to someone else's charms, given the right time and circumstances. To me, this is a prime example of "To err is human, to forgive, divine." My prayers are with you, SF! <P>Hugs and prayers to all,<BR>Winny<P><BR>