This is my first post, sorry about the length.<BR>I couldn't find many posts that mentioned this topic. Most examples had already crossed over in "real" A's. I thought this might really help someone in the early part of h*ll.<P>Details:<BR>Me (44) midlife crisis; W (42); married 20 years; 3 kids (15,13,8); both of us active in community, but with separate interests. Evenings spent in front of T.V.(mostly), don't go out much. Sounds like the typical middle aged marriage -- we aren't meeting each others needs very well, but after 20 years we've learned to cope. I think we've learned to avoid most LBs. Everyone (including us) seems to think we have a strong marriage.<P>About a year ago W started going on web actively, mostly to find info, buy things. Then to download solitare games, then found online gaming with the associated chat rooms. It actually took her a while to get involved in the chat -- she found it rather silly. Somehow she got interested in the goings-on in one of the rooms and called me over to show me. We *BOTH* watched this room for several days and she started chatting with and meeting the regulars. Her online personality was very nice (not a big flirt) and since she only typed with two fingers she didn't say a lot. I even went on our second computer and went into the chat room with her, but found that I mostly wanted to flirt with her and I don't think she liked that so I backed off (mistake). She started visiting the site a lot (5 hours/day?) I quit watching because I couldn't keep up with all the people, but W was very happy to give me a running commentary of the action. In fact, this was a good conversation topic for a while. The addiction continued, it became impossible to talk to her while she was online (on a laptop in the living room, so she was always there with the whole family) because she just wasn't paying attention. For a while I rationalized that it was far better than being mesmerized by TV. Marriage-wise nothing really changed except that she was staying up later and later (midnight+) yet getting up at 5:30. She used to be in bed at 10 or 11 depending on the prime time show. <P>For many months she chatted in public rooms only, but then W exchanged email with some of the women she met and things got more personal. Then she discovered IM and MSM and started chatting with these same women -- in parallel with room chat, so they could share private jokes.<P>About half the people she met were men and I don't know exactly when she started doing most of her private chat with them (mostly 2 specific men whom I will call OM1 and OM2). We missed the ball drop on New Year's Eve because she was chatting with OM2 and wasn't watching the clock -- I quess I was supposed to have given her advanced warning. We had our $100 champaign (with Strawberries) about 15 min after. I guess our ideas of romance differed a little.<P>Because of busy family stuff we weren't able to celebrate her birthday until the weekend following it. But, OM1 sent her a beautiful arrangement. Imagine my surprise to come home (with a bouquet of flowers from under my arm -- I actually bring flowers home ALOT) to find this enormous,<BR>beautiful arrangement sitting there. My kids were asking me if I had sent mom flowers. Somehow I laughed that off. What kind of "friend" would send flowers like that to a married woman. I was nervous about things but I trusted W utterly to not cross any boundaries.<P>My D-day was in mid-April sometime. I realized that I was as noticed as a piece of furniture when I was around W (she was always online, of course). My mind was starting to churn all through the night, I couldn't sleep. I'd fall asleep at my desk at work, I'd try to go to bed early to catch up, but I'd hear her in the other room LOL with her buddies in chat. I'd lay awake with my heart pounding for hours until she came to bed and then I'd get up and pace for hours, or I'd leave the house and walk. I realized THEN, that was what parents must feel like when their daughter is out on a date and they wonder when she is getting home and whether she is safe. W was dating. :-(<P>I got frantic at that point looking for info on where they were (W+OM1) in their relationship. I found only a folder with poems in it. Poems written by OM1. Most of the poems were intensly romantic. One, in particular, broke my heart. It was addressed to W and it expressed the love<BR>I felt for her more intensely than I thought words could bear. I cried. It seemed clear in the poem that the expression of love was mutual.<P>I also peeked over her shoulder at her chat (with OM1) and observed a discussion of a dream she had involving OM1 (not explicit). This was a 2 minute slice of 15 hours of chat that week. Did I just see the wrong 2 minutes?<P>Soon after this W mentioned that OM1 and OM2 were going on a<BR>road trip to meet all their chat "friends". W was included as a stop on this trip. I told her it couldn't happen. Recently I've learned that this trip "might" happen during the same week that I'm going to be out of town AND our boys are going to be at camp (end of June).<P>It was about this time we had our first talk (mid-April).<BR>W caught me talking to myself about the overheard chat and demanded to know how I knew what she had chatted about.<BR>She denied any significance and said they were just good friends, like brother and sister. She said she could tell them anything. Why couldn't she have her own friends? She said she loved ONLY me. I believe she loves me deeply, but doesn't understand her feelings for OM1.<P>About the end of April I discovered MB. I have read the entire web site and have HNHN. I tried to get W to read it, but she was proceeding very slowly. She stated that she had done nothing wrong and after my talk seemed to think that things were ok.<P>She had occasional nights where she didn't chat, but she went back to TV on those nights. We have started a once a week "date night". But, I still don't get the amount of time OM1 and OM2 do.<P>I started noticing a lot of furtive emailing. Windows closing when I entered the room. Email first thing in the morning, last thing at night. I thought stuff had just gone underground so last week I installed a keylogger. In her email I found several days worth of early morning "good morning my sweet honey" emails to OM1. She said she missed him (didn't chat the previous night), made plans to email him all day on her off day from work. Not explicit stuff, but not what I would expect from "just friends" either. She found out about my snooping, caught me reading the log. Major LB. She made me take it off. I'm sorry I put it on -not sure what I learned was worth the LB.<P>W was livid until I wrote her a letter telling her how much I loved her. I apologized for the snooping, but I did say clearly how angry and sad and hurt I was. We actually had a better talk that night and made some progress. She has been reading the book, we talked about some of the stuff in it. I'm still not clear what her top needs are yet. I know she's working on the EN questionaire.<P>Could there be so much smoke and no fire? Could I be over paranoid?<P>Any comments?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by jeffers (edited June 05, 2001).]

jeffers,<P>You are not being too careful here. My A started exactly the same way. In fact, if I didn't know better, I would think you were writing about me. I met the OM online in a chat room too. We seem to hit it off. And both of us confided in each other the things in our marriages that weren't working and the needs that weren't being met. He even sent me flowers, yellow roses, to where I work for my birthday. Unfortunately, he lived close enough that after a few months of chatting we actually met. And it didn't take long for things to progress from there. I am so glad that you found this site. I wish I had known about it before my EA turned physical. It would have saved all of us a lot of pain. I am so glad your W is willing to read the book and do the survey. <BR>I always thought that I wasn't capable of having an A, but<BR>I was wrong. When I found that man who started meeting the needs that had long been neglected in my own marriage, having things turn physical only seemed natural and right at the time. even tho I know they were wrong, but somehow in my confused state of thinking, I didn't think they were wrong at the time. Knowing that your W is doing online shouldn't be a problem if she has nothing to hide. If what happend with me would help her, please have her email me.<BR>I would be happy to share any details she may want to know about. my email is deblynne_45@yahoo.com<BR>I hope some of this helped you.<BR>you are in my prayers,<P>dlm (debbie)

Where there is smoke there is fire. You are not over paranoid. Some of your story sounds like my wife, but in her case, it was tons of emailing, but not much chatting, but that is because OM lives in the city.<P>I trusted my wife more than anything, and her morals were extremely high. She used to scoff at people that would leave their marriages without trying. Well, she started going out alot in Feb/Mar 2000, also chatting a bit online, emailing new "friends", and eventually met OM while all the friends were out together. Not appropriate behavior for a married woman with 2 small children. Anyway, her attention was all on emailing and OM, as well as other new friends, and like you, I installed snoop software. Never got caught, and learned all kinds of sickening stuff that I never thought was possible from my wife.<P>To this day, she denies it all, but she left last November, and I've not divulged exactly what I know or how. I am in Plan A, soon moving to Plan B.<P>I think that if you don't lay some groundrules regarding your wife's time online and her complete honesty, then trouble will only get worse. There should be nothing she does that you cannot see or read. If she is hiding stuff, then you have a problem. But you already know that, because you read poems and know about the flowers. That stuff is all inappropriate and is a problem.<P>I would suggest you let her read things on this site, and even ask her to talk to Steve Harley. He can explain things very well. What she is doing is considered an affair, even if she hasn't met them in person. This thing happening in June is bad news. My wife wanted me to go away with the kids last June so she could "think". I know now that the only thinking she did was with OM, at MY house. Casino one night, bar the next night, restaurant the next night, bla bla bla. Affairs can supposedly happen to anyone, so don't take this lightly. Deal with it now.<P>I hope that she emails debbie from the previous post, because she can learn that way about how silly it is to carry on like this.<P>Keep us posted. I really hope that you can get back on track before this gets any further.

Hi Jeffers,<P>I would like to welcome you to MB. You are wise to have done your homework and no you are not paranoid. This is smoke, a smoke screen hiding something much more volitale. <P>My H also went on the internet, looking for a 'friend'. Yes, his intentions were bad. He found 'many' women quite anxious to talk to a 'nice' man. He even sent out his picture and sure enough hooked up with one that has had her hooks in our lives since Aug 00 (our 10th anniversary, guess what we did not celebrate last year - YUCK).<P>Anyway, OW lives about 3 towns away and the EA went PA in less than 2 months. From a total stranger to talking about divorce in 2 months!!!! This is what an A is all about. I did not find out until end of Nov. 00. I heard a voicemail that OW left on H's cell phone saying "I love you!". Hm.... H said it was a 'friend', then a 'good friend', then confessed. They already had a PA and OW was even claiming to be pregnant. Double YUCK!!!<P>This is how quickly it can go, it can get much uglier. I recommend you and your W get to counseling right away!!! If you can use the Harley's phone counseling sessions, please do so. They are very skilled at working with these EA's on in the internet. <P>Do not underestimate the pull of the EA, it is very strong and subtle. Your W may or may not know how much she is involved. Especially if there were already issues in your life or one of too much comfort and the OMs provided 'excitement', then it is very easy. <P>The funny thing is like Rick's wife, my H also used to frown on those who went outside their marriage. You know what? My H had in the previous year visited massage palors, yet he frowned on anyone else doing such a 'bad thing'. Of course, that was before he started his dirty deed and then claimed it was because he thought I did not love him and once he started felt I would not forgive him and so continued. Does this make sense???? It is ok to say no because it does not make sense to me. Yet this is what my H said. <P>I have lived through a rough 6 months knowing all of this and then some. I just posted most of my story to JK's thread. <P>For you, I recommend continued reading. Learn what may be forthcoming and understand that you need to make changes, your W needs to recognize the seriousness of this situation and make changes. Together you two can conquer this horrible chapter in your life and recover to a stronger and better relationship. But it will take time, dedication, honesty, truth, effort and lots of love. Patience is a quality for the BS to cultivate. <P>Continue to post here. When you are frustrated, angry, sad, despondent, etc. If your wife can visit here also, please let her know she is welcomed. Your case is not unique. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Jeffers,<P>I agree with the others here as I have more experience in intenet affairs then I ever wanted. My H had affairs with 10 women he met over the internet. <P>Please read my original posting as I want to make a point here and you will need to background to understand it fully.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000730.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000730.html</A> <P>Hopefully by this point you have read the above link.<P>My point is that these guys your W is involved with sound like serial internet lurkers.<P>"Soon after this W mentioned that OM1 and OM2 were going on a road trip to meet all their chat "friends". "<P>Do OM1 and OM2 know each other? Are they going on this trip together? It sounds to me like they have set up a bunch of women so that they can now screw their way across the country. Don't think this does not happen. There are a lot of very sick men on the internet who tell women whatever it takes to bed them. <P>If this is a joint trip with OM1 and OM2, it would freighten me for your wife to see them alone. Rape is a very good possibility.<P>Besides all of the other issues you are dealing with, because you wife is in a fog, you really need to do some homework to protect her from these guys.<P>My suggestion is that you put monitoring software back on the computer (see <A HREF="http://www.iopus.com)." TARGET=_blank>www.iopus.com).</A> You don't need anymore details about what is going on, but you do need to find out who these guys are. Check out their stories. Have either of these guys given your wife their home phone numbers and addresses? If they have not, they are married. My rule of thumb is that if a man professes love for a women and he does not immediately open up his entire life to her - phone numbers, addresses, his friends. Then he is either married or playing her for a fool.<P>The internet gives people a false sense of security. And it is a fantasy. You wife has not figured this our yet. If there is any way you can protect your wife from this fantasy becoming a real life disaster you need to. <P>You take care, <BR>{{{{{hugs}}}}}}<P>She is deep into affairs with men she has never met.<P>

I thought of a few more things……<P>IMHO you do not need to apologize to your wife for you snooping. As your wife she is your other half and we need to know when our other half is in trouble. Dr. Harley talks about the need for total openness and honesty between spouses. Affairs can usually only happen when a spouse can create a secret life, way from the BS. So if you both open all aspects of your life to each other, an affair is very hard to continue.<P>When I found out about my H’s affairs I got his buddy list and chatted with every one of the women on it. I feel that I have the right to know when my husband cheating. No apologies here.<P>The other point is that if these guys are serial Internet lurkers there is a very easy way to shake them out. You have their screen names right? Get some one, preferably a woman and not you, to IM them and start up an Internet relationship with them. Chances are that they use exactly the same tactics on all the ladies. Have this person save every chat conversation and every email from these guys. Then they can be given to your wife. They could be provided to her in a manner that she never knows you were involved. People who are Internet lurkers depend on the fact that they can chat with many people and none of them will ever know of the others. Each of their Internet lovers thinks they are the only ones. <P>Shoot, because of my experience, I’d be willing to root them out for you.<P>I know this may sound terrible to you but you are fighting for your marriage. And IMHO anything that helps do that is fair game.<P>If you are still visiting this website, please let us know how you are doing. There are many of us who have been following your thread. We are truly concerned for you and your wife.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Thank you all for replying. I feel a lot better to get that off my chest. I'm thankful that I found the MB site as quickly as I did. One of the things that happened is that all of my anger just melted away, I understand why our marriage is the way it is, but I also see that it doesn't have to stay that way. I could very easily have gone down W's path. In my short foray into her chat room I could see how easy it was to get into major flirting - that's a path I might've taken had I stayed there (I guess<BR>that's a different path than W :-). I'm still shocked at how easily it happened, I mean it unfolded literally in front of my eyes for 6 mo. and I was even approving in the beginning.<P>Comments:<P>Zorweb your story scares the heck out of me. Just this morning I made a comment about possibities of OM2 having other girlfriends that W doesn't know about (W knows he has the hots for another member of W's chat group). W seemed to be a little peeved by the question because she just knows him too well. I was mostly joking, but the response was<BR>stronger than I expected. Of course, I'm hyper-sensitive to just about anything W says or does right now. Is that what people mean when they refer to "triggers"?<P>I've also had those nightmares about the road trip. The list of other bad things that could happen is pretty large too. It's very likely, after knowing my feelings, that the road trip won't even come our way. But... I'll be a basket case thinking about these things if I take my trip.<P>I've met OM2 in the chat room. W has told me lots about both of them. I'm sure I would like them in other circumstances. Their chat circle is large enough that I don't think any of these people could be different<BR>than what they seem. They all seem to be having problems with their real relationships (go figure) and do a lot of confiding in each other. It's a soap opera. I can see why W finds it so fascinating. W told me she talks about us with OM1 and he's very supportive. That made me feel a *lot* better.<P>Thanks dlm. I knew if I posted here someone would say "that's me". I think she thinks I'm accusing her of something dreadful and what I've learned is "stuff happens" (bad stuff in this case). I wish she was able to put herself in my place to see what it looks like. That is my defense<BR>if it ultimately turns out to be less than it appears -- it appears real bad. I'm absolutely grateful that both OM's are further than a days drive away.<P>Rick, Orchid. My W has told me over and over how fast I'd be out the door with papers in my hand if I was ever involved in an A. I've never said that. It's clear that almost no one intends to have an A (at least from what I've seen here).<P>I've been trying to get W to come to the MB site. If I told her about this post she be here in a flash, but I'd rather she visit the rest of the site first. The forums are pretty scary, whereas the rest of the site is pretty positive (even while illustrating the dangers).<P>Update:<P>Most of the above is bad stuff. There is a lot of good stuff going on. I've never felt closer to W. I've been able to tell her things I should've long ago. She hasn't talked to me yet, but she will and that's when we'll address some of these honesty issues (I know honesty will be near the top of her EN list). She has limited her chat time quite a bit in the last week and I have noticed much less sneakiness. Date night was wonderful and we even played scrabble last weekend (instead of computer or TV - yippee!). Our love banks are pretty full right now and if we just spend enough time with each other we should be ok. I'm real careful about pushing real hard right now - no one likes to be told what to do (or how they should feel!). As long as things continue to improve I'm hopeful. <P> -J

I understand what you say about how these guys seem to be really nice when you talk to them. They seem so real. Mine is not the only case I know of where either men or women have misrepresented themselves over the internet. I know many people this has happened to. A person can be anyone they want to be. And may people play this game on the internet. <P>One thing I have learned about the internet is that the media is like reading a very good book. The book is not only good but it responds in realtime to your every mood and thought. I believe that is why it is so seductive. <P>I am not saying that these guys are lying or pulling off a scam, just that there is a very high possibility. They are at the very least going after your wife which is very very wrong.<P>Is there any way you can cancel your trip?<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<P>Funny you should ask about my trip. I've been thinging about that a lot today. It's all tied up with my mid-life crisis thing. I'm a scientist, so I do stuff and then go to meetings and report what I've done. Over the last couple of years I've been putting more time into my family (and marriage?) and so my work has fallen off a notch. So has the respect and admiration I get from my peers. This is an EN my W was never responsible for meeting -- I haven't been able to figure out why I felt so bad about stuff lately. This thought just occurred to me this morning. <P>Sorry, off the track. About the trip. I haven't yet done the work I need to do to prepare so there's almost no point in going anyway (rationalization here). So I'm probably not. I'm not sure what to tell the colleagues who are expecting me to go. (the truth?) Is anyone able to function in the middle of a marital crisis? I'm not.<BR> Thanks for paying attention.<BR> - J<BR>

Jeffers,<P>By the way, you say that these people in the chat room talk about their marital problems. Where are these men's wives? I bet they are not happy about this either. Or maybe they are not really married and it's just part of their MO (Sorry but I am a cynic anymore.)<P>Hey, want me to visit the chat room and see what's up? I'll be in chat tonight every evening this week with my H 'cause he's on travel so it would be no problem for me. lol.... I'd do it very discretely.<P>It sounds to me like you and I work in very similar environments. I went to my department head and discretely explained the situtation. I explained that travel was out of the question for me for sometime. <P>He was very gracious in letting me set up a travel schedule that met my teams needs. Since the junior engineers on my team are chomping at the bit to show their stuff, I've let them do most of the travel. They get great kudos for this because they are performing above their job level. And I get great kudos because my team is going great work.<P>In your case where you were writing something to present. One solution is to submit the paper but not attend. An other solution is to take your wife along and make it a mini-vacation for the two of you. Maybe she would be more supportive of you work if she were more involved.<P>Just a thought. My H and I are struggling with the travel issue right now. Where I have cut back my travel, he still travels about half of the time. This is very hard on us in building trust, etc. <P>My H is looking for another position that does not require so much travel. But I think you understand the difficulty of this in the technical / scientific fields. Really good positoins are not that easy to find. <P>You are right... no one can perform well on their job under these circumstances. I've been a basketcase so I thank the Good Lord daily for the great team I have. <P>Perhaps you can get creative with this....<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<P>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 04, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 04, 2001).]

Zorweb,<P>Actually, they do two kinds of chatting. They all met in one of those "public" game rooms where 50 people are playing fake roulette and chatting indiscriminantly. They have their personal discussions using MS Messanger (or email). Sometimes W has three MSM windows going at the same time. Frankly, it is an exciting way to have a conversation.<BR>But, when she is gaming or MSMing she lets me watch all I want, and no longer stays up late. She makes me tell her when I go to bed and she quits at that point. I've watched her chat lately and the content doesn't bother me, just the addiction aspect. I know it's hard for her but she has made it a point to break away and spend time with me. <P>OM1 mostly talked to W via email. It's even possible that she's broken off with him, I'm afraid to ask. The last time I thought that he was just out of town. She was moping around last weekend (a little) and may have been in withdrawal (which happened when he went out of town, too). I can be hopeful, can't I?<P>About travel. Our mistakes come back to haunt us. I took W on a trip a couple of years ago and sort of abandoned her. I think I was trying to make the point that these trips weren't vacations. There was a short meeting scheduled after dinner that turned into a long meeting, that turned into beer at the bar and went late. I noticed afterward that she had packed some ultralight clothing and probably thought we have some time together. She will never, ever, go with me on a trip again. And I will never, ever forget how stupid I was.<P>After 20 years I feel I owe her for lot's of stuff like that. I'll get creative and make adjustments with my travel. <P>A lot of people say they wish they had seen MB sooner. I don't think I would have learned anything here if I had come sooner than 5 years ago. I had to make lot's of mistakes before I could realize that marriage was something I really needed help on. I guess that the price of arrogance.<P>I really feel like I've mellowed out a little over the course of the day. I'm eager to go home now and be a wonderful husband again.<BR>Thanks,<BR> - J<P><BR>

Jeffers: There used to be a New Yorker cartoon in which one dog was showing the other dog how to use the Internet, and says, "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog."<P>The people your W is talking to could be anyone.<P>I'm in kind of a unique position in that I have a VERY ACTIVE online life that I run under VERY STRICT rules. I have many women friends (I am female) that I have never met. I have one in another country whom I have met -- we got together as a foursome (us and our spouses) when they were in the U.S. When my H was having an EA/"inappropriate friendship" two years ago, my online friends were my lifeline to sanity; they were my support. I have an online novel and online film reviews. My site partner is someone I haven't met as well.<P>My H knows about ALL of these people. I have even offered him my e-mail passwords so he knows I'm on the up-and-up.<P>Would I be as comfortable if he was online as much as I am? No. But he is, for whatever reason.<P>I do not participate in interactive chat. I do not maintain ongoing correspondences with heterosexual men. Gay men are a different story. Of course, lesbian women (and I have one friend who just came out) are more of a problem for him. <P>Still, I have very strict rules that I follow to the letter.<P>Without those rules, you can find yourself in a whole heap o'trouble before you know it. Years ago I was in a very intense pen-pal relationship with a guy in prison. These things can emulate "love" very quickly if you're lovelorn. About two years ago a guy was writing me about my online novel. He was married and clearly unhappy and scoping out my interest in corresponding. I told him in no uncertain terms that I was unavailable, and I suggested he put the effort into his marriage that he puts into trying to pick up women online.<P>I pay close attention to my H and my marriage; he comes first. It IS possible to enjoy online experiences without getting into trouble, but it requires a commitment and honesty with your spouse.

Dazed and Confused,<P>You are right about that. My H and I are computer professionals. We are on the computer all day and communicate with many people via the Internet. One of the reasons our problem happened is that I am not a jealous person. I trusted that he was on the up and up that his chat relationships with women were nothing to worry about. I like your rule of not corresponding/chatting with people of the opposite sex.<P>As time goes on, more and more of us will become savvier as the seductiveness and inherent problems of Internet based relationships. <P>Right now my H and I only chat with his mother & sisters, my family and best male friend. And he and I participate in this forum. I don't know if we will ever change that. <P>Thanks for some good ideas…<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

We have strict internet rules - mostly for the kids. W was following them too when she started going online. They got bent, a little at a time, with women first. It took many months to get where we are. She needs to invent some new rules that she will be able to stick to and that will protect US. <P>This morning I feel really bad - I don't know why. <P>Do you ever think that you'll feel better if something happens - anything, even if it's bad? I guess I'm not seeing any movement on W's part. I don't think she'll seriously read the MB site. Should I send her this post even if it's a major LB? <P> - J

All of this sounds so fimiliar, but I have no proof as of yet. W has "private" e-mail account and I travel alot. She received egreetings on Valentine's day that I found, also a divorcing man's screenname on her buddy list but like all others, she denies there's anything to any of it...She NEVER goes on-line while I'm home. If she had nothing to hide, then why would it all be so secret? Worst part is, whenever I find some of this stuff out, I'M the one that's in trouble for violating privacy... Isn't there a bigger pcture here? I mean come on...If she went into my car and found another woman's bra in my glove compartment, should I be mad because she violated my privacy or is there a bigger issue there???? Right now, the worst part is not knowing. I think I would rather know for sure and deal with it one way or another...I have thought about installing some of the snooper software, but again, if it gets found out, then I'll be in the wrong..I also would love to e-mail the OM on her buddy list and it gets back to her, WWIII... What do I do?

jeffers,<P>Oh how I wish I could talk with her. It is so easy to allow yourself to believe and feel so attached to the people you chat with. It is an easy way to open up yourself and yet not be truly exposed. And yet, if you feel that someone is sharing intimate and important details of their life with you, you become involved and want to get to know that person better. And before I knew it, I was emotionally attached to the OM. I even told my H about chatting with other men and since I got no response from him, I continued. I took this to mean my H didn't care so I continued. When I first actually met the OM, I was with my H. In fact my H and him had a great conversation. It was many months after meeting the the EA became PA. And the whole time this was happening, I would tell my H that I was seeing the OM and got no response. Even now I still chat online, but I'm much more careful. I don't reveal anything personal about my relationship with my H and any man that is looking for something else who says he is married I point them to this site. I tell them to come here and read to see how hurt their spouses would be if they knew what they were doing.<BR>But it is an addition. And I am still working on breaking it. I have placed limits on myself which I try to adhere to. some days I don't, but overall, I am doing much better.<BR>My H and I are working hard at our marriage and the things that brought us to this point. <BR>It does sound like she is being more open about things with you. that is good. hang in there and keep reading. I find that it helps me so much. Just let her know that there are others out there who know what she is going thru.<BR>I'm praying for you and her,<BR>dlm(debbie)

Ray,<BR> I know how you feel. I wasn't paying much attention and one day I just "noticed". After that point every suspicious thing I saw drove me crazy. The thing is, I could imagine a reasonable explanation for all of them, separately. So I never wanted to accuse her of anything because I might actually be imagining things.<P>In my case W has never denied talking to people, but I think she hasn't been totally honest about all the stuff that has been going on. Maybe she's protecting my feelings because she thinks I'll misinterpret something innocuous.<P>I tried snooping and it did not make me happier. You'll notice several of the replies above mention it, but only as part of an agreement to improve trust. Your W seems to have gone in the opposite direction and is doing things that are very scary.<P>After coming here I realized that there are things *I* need to work on regardless of what's going on with her. (I assume you've been around the rest of the MB site) We still have lot's of love in our marriage and I'm doing my best to increase it so she won't want to go elsewhere! <P> - J

dlm,<P>I wonder if I wasn't behaving the same way as your H. My W only found out about my distress accidently. I was violating the policy of Honesty big time.<P>This is very scary stuff for me. By that I mean that I would have a hard time saying to her face what I have put in this post. The anonymity of the internet does make it easier to get personal! I was hoping to point her to this post after we shared our EN lists as my first attempt at total honesty.<BR>I may give it to her sooner. I truly hope she contacts you.<P>I'm not sure how she'll respond to this thread. She may be very angry at my sharing of intensely personal information. I also don't know if she truly believes in the Harley stuff - she's a skeptic to the core. <P>Thanks for listening,<BR> - J<BR>

WoW!!!!!! your story is just like mine, the pain and anger I felt when I realized what was going on. I wanted to believe her the emailing stopped and the chatting slowed some at least I thought it did. She was talking to him everyday on the phone using phone cards. I thought it was innocent at first, I went to the chat room and talked with a few ladies also found it fune and interesting, but like you I stopped she continued and then it went to phone. well she reassured me there was nothing between them just friends and he lived 2000 miles away and was married with children. Back in jan 01. he found a job in my state a few hours from here. she left and moved out to be with him. she has been living with him now for 4 months. what i have learned here is whether online or RL it is still an Affair and all the characteristics are the same as RL. I was blamed for everything and recently divorced it all happened so fast I didn't know what hit me. So please get some counseling and read all you can on internet addiction and cyber affairs. it will really open your eyes.<P><BR>

jeffers,<P>I also know that when I was in the fog, there wasn't anything my H could do to help me think rationally. I felt completely justified by chatting and sharing intimate details of my life with the OM. So while she is in denial, she probably won't want to hear anything anyone else has to share about all this. She may not even believe that she is addicted or that there is any problem. I am praying that her eyes will be opened before it is too late and she finds herself in over her head. My H was the most patient and caring man ever when he found out about my A. He has never made me feel guilty for any of it, and I am so thankful for that. He said it was his wake up call and probably the only way he would have ever woke up to the fact our marriage was deteriorating right before his eyes. He was contented to go and do what he wanted to knowing that I would just be home. I do know that only God has been able to put our marriage back together. Because I felt sure that I could never be happy here again. Now I can't see myself anywhere else or with anyone else. So the attraction I felt online in chatting with other men is gone.<BR>I still enjoy chatting but it is completely different and just as much fun. Anyways, keep the faith and pay attention to what she is doing. She may not even realize how deeply involved she is.<P>dlm (debbie)