My story is pretty standard. W (WS) was in love with OM and was ready to leave the marriage. D-day was 3 months ago. I am doing Plan A , no LB, she says that she loves me as a friend but not intimately (I guess we are not in the intimacy stage yet following the Harleys principles).<BR>Sometimes she says she can't live without me, sometimes I ask if she would leave if we didn't have our daughter and she says yes. Again, I am doing Plan A without LB and she loves it she says that I am doing so much with her and that she loves me with her head but not her heart (I guess it's a variation of "not in-love" speech, right?).<P>So my question is, are we in conflict stage and trying to move to intimacy stage? (again from the Harleys definitions)<BR>How long does it take to get to "in-love" from here? (I understand that there is no formula here but any rough estimates?) <BR>I am trying to fill her ENs, I am using "1001 ways to be romantic" book as well (thanks to Zorweb, Paintbox and others) she likes it but doesn't feel it with her heart.<P>Your help and insight is always invaluable.<BR>Thanks in advance,<BR>Ivan

Hi Ivan,<P>It tends to be a bit slow on the weekends so you are kind of stuck with me for now. More will join in later. <P>As far as when???? Well, you W may feel that she has some personal issues of her own that she needs to resolve before she can go and share herself with you. See if she already has been inimate with OM, then she may feel 'disloyal' to the OM. <P>Does that make sense? No. But believe it or not, the WS's feel greater loyalty to the OP than their own spouse. Especially if the OP has a strong hold on them. They feel the 'owe' each other that, it is a 'bond' between them. YUCK!!! <P>Despite how we (the BS) feels, there is not a whole lot we can do about it until, the WS is ready to leave the A. It could be days, weeks, months, years. For most it is months. In my case it has been 8 months since the A started with this OW and 6 months since d/d.<P>Love in the head and not the heart is similar to the illogical 'not in love with you' statement. H actually is still clinging to parts of that one. It is a hard part of the EA to shake. You know there are actual sites where those OPs (especially the OW) go to and I personally believe some are coached there. Either way, those OPs sure know how to get their digs into our spouses. <P>You can reassure your W of your love and tell her you hope one day she can reciporcate that love. That is if you are in plan A. I hope she reacts well to it. Otherwise there are many stories where the WS had to live through more drastic actions before they actually 'saw the light'. <P>Most W like to be spoken to in a kind, loving and gentle way. Some of us melt just when hearing a nice word. So try that on your W. Hope it works. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Orchid,<BR>Thanks a lot for the reply. <BR>She actually used to say that she doesn't care about him anymore in about 2 months after D-day than recently she said she misses him sometimes.<BR> I understand about kind words and being romantic and she says she appreciates that, she loves me as a friend , I say the same things as OM sometimes (what a complement!) but still she doesn't feel it with me (whatever that "in-love", "love with the heart" feeling is).<BR> So sometimes I don't understand how it is going to come all of a sudden .... And you are saying that sometimes they need more drastic measures ... this also scares me because we are getting along pretty well except her continuing "attachment" to the OM and I don't really want to separate to fix it (I guess this is what you meant, right?).<BR>Anyways, thanks a lot for the ideas, it helps a lot.<BR>Ivan

Hi Ivan,<P>You are more into recovery than most. However, this is also a vulnerable time. These A's come on strong. It seems like an instant to us but to them it feels like a long time. <P>Like your W, my H still has feelings for the OW. This does not make me happy. OW has done some terrible things and yet he has 'feelings' for her and even wants to be with her. YUCK!!!!<P>Be prepared when your W says these things. When it happens it will not remove the hurt but the pain will be less (although you might not be able to tell a reduction in pain, reading others posts will help you see where your pain is in regards to theirs). <P>I also hope you don't have to take drastic measures. But not to warn you would not be fair. Forwarned is to be forarmed and in this 'game', there are no fair rules. You are fighting for your marriage and the A is pulling for it's own selfish interests, whether they be your W's or the OM's interests. Do not compete. Just be yourself. The OP often likes to know that they have aggravated the BS. Well, maybe that is more if the OP is an agressive OW.<P>So if you are prepared for the worst and it does not happen, then better for you. If it does, then you are prepared. <P>I am not encouraging separation. You are trying to restore your marriage. Continued contact with the OM will hinder your recovery. Watch, if it is bothering you, in a loving way let your wife know. If she is not responding then you may need to step back and analyze the situation for another approach (good time to see Steve Harley). <P>My H was willing to stay at home (have his cake and eat it to). However, I refused to support the A by meeting his other ENs at home. H was willing to continue things as they were if he could be pleased from both sides. So in my case, H had to go out and find out for himself if the grass was truly green grass or green weeds. <P>L.

Ivan my H was saying the same things to me that your W says to you. Our d-day was valentines day -4 mo ago and H told me when he confessed that he was 'out of love' with me and 'in love with her' and was going to leave me after 15 yrs and 3 kids together. H"s A with a single coworker was mostly emotional for a year but physical for the last 3 mo. ( lasted a bit over a year)She was absolutely determined to get him to leave me and marry her.H had quit being intimate with me about 7 mo ago when his A turned physical with OW. Needless to say this hurt alot- he wouldnt even kiss me. OW put so much presure on him that he even filed for D on me but changed his mind the same day I got served! She also took a job promotion to another state as she was mad he wouldnt divorce me. Even after THAT he wasnt intimate with me until this last wkend- 3 mo after she moved away. I think H felt he had to be 'loyal' to OW. And also he told me that when I asked him to kiss me 'it was as if I was asking him to go kiss the neighbor lady." Thats how detached he was from me even though he only moved out for a few wks and has been at home ever since. Wait her out Ivan. My H's drive for me came back about 6 wks after no contact with OW- 4 mo after d-day. It came back full force all of a sudden too. I was shocked to say the least. I really had thought we might NEVER be intimate again. My plan A worked - but to do it I had to de-tach from him emotionally when he was distant from me or talked about D or being not 'in love' anymore. I would go do something for myself at these times.Do not take that kind of talk too seriously thats what my counselor told me because H was still living at home but here in body only not emotionally.As my wise mom told me' H knows the road outta here- he just doesnt REALLY want to go!" He is finally coming around emotionally.Think of it as a lengthy psychology assignment in college if that helps! lifeismessy

Lifeismessy wrote:<BR>>>My plan A worked - but to do it I had to de-tach from him emotionally when he was distant from me or talked about D or being not 'in love' anymore. I would go do something for myself at these times.Do not take that kind of talk too seriously thats what my counselor told me because H was still living at home but here in body only not emotionally.As my wise mom told me' H knows the road outta here- he just doesnt REALLY want to go!" He is finally coming around emotionally.Think of it as a lengthy psychology assignment in college if that helps! lifeismessy>><P>Hi, Lifeismessy and Ivan and all..<BR>I have to agree with you here, Life. I'm in the same spot with my H, and just the other night as we lay side by side in bed and he wanted me to touch him, I asked him straight out: "Why is it that you never touch or kiss me? Do you feel as if you are being unfaithful to someone else?" He made a face and said, 'No!!! no...there is no one else." Of course. We've been going 'round about this ever since my own D-day, 7 months ago, but I did find out he was having at least an EA with one of his martial arts students. But, in my intuitive nature, I KNOW that that is what is going on!(I mean the guilty feelings about touching the spouse) It was so good to read about that here in this post, even though I am so sorry for everyone else's pain.<P>Ivan, listen to Lifeismessy. She is right! My H is still with me and we are behaving very nicely now and rebuilding our 'friendship' all over again. I know that down deep he still has feelings for me (trust me--I deliberately ran around nude, except for a thong, in front of him Sat. night and the proof of this 'arose', so to speak. Now, this is new bec. for the past 7 months, my body didn't impress him in the least)and that in time, the old spark will rekindle. If she at least admits she loves you as a friend, you are worlds ahead, Ivan. It's when that deep attachment or friendship goes that the real trouble starts. I call it loss of respect, too. With my first H, I lost all respect for him. He was lazy, whiny, and expected the world to owe him a living. Over time, I lost every sense of respect and friendship for him and actually grew to detest him. Believe me, when respect goes out the window, Divorce flies in! <P>And Life, your mom is so right! They DO know the road out, and if they are not taking it, they really do not want to. I'm just chalking all of this up to mid-life crisis with my H. It was coming, it is here and now it is on the way out. Thank God! Hang in there and be strong and have faith. Plan A really does work. <P>Hugs to you all,<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited June 04, 2001).]

Thanks a lot Orchid, Life, Win.<BR>Your views are very valuable to me.<BR>I understand that I am in a better position than a lot of people here and I really appreciate it. I've learnt to appreciate life the way it is at any moment - good or bad.<BR>The problem that I was having was that it seemed that we are in some sort of a "stable" state where she is happy with me but not in intimacy stage where she wants to kiss , hug etc. We are actually having sex sometimes (and again, I am thankfull for that) but she seems to compare it to her everyday sex drive to OM. That's why I get frustrated sometimes because I don't understand how she would get "in-love" feeling at this stage and how long it will take because it is just continuing good friendship that we have. <BR>Thanks to everyone again,<BR>Ivan.

Hey Ivan,<BR>The intimacy thing bugs me too.<P><B> The problem that I was having was that it seemed that we are in some sort of a "stable" state where she is happy with me but not in intimacy stage where she wants to kiss , hug etc. We are actually having sex sometimes (and again, I am thankfull for that) but she seems to compare it to her everyday sex drive to OM. That's why I get frustrated sometimes because I don't understand how she would get "in-love" feeling at this stage and how long it will take because it is just continuing good friendship that we have. <BR></B><P>My husband and I have actually been intimate more frequently since d-day. I'm with lifeismessy and Winnytoo in the waiting it out department. I don't take too much stock in the things WS's say. It is actions that count. So don't ask a lot of Q's, she's probably not capable of giving you the ones your want to hear yet.<P>Strengthen yourself. Do nice things for yourself. She will notice. (I've lost quite a bit and have bought new clothes, my H is noticing other people noticing me .)<P>Good luck!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Cali<P>"Humble yourselves, therefore,under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you." <P>1 Peter 5:6-7