I am the author of the "Do Men Take a Cheating Wife Harder than the Reverse?" That posting has raised new questions. The following was tagged on to the bottom of the above mentioned posting. However, I am not sure if people will see it there since the posting is becoming dated.<P>Here we go....<P>Wife cheated on me with a male friend of ours.<P>I find that working at things between my wife and I are moving at a snails pace, if not slower. I go to see a councellor on Monday, of next week, for the first time since the news broke on Tuesday of last week. It is only me who is going, by choice. Was this the right decision? I wanted to get my side of the story out, get my pain out and see what the councellor suggests. Then I would bring my wife to the next session. Is this smart? Or will the second session seem like a setup to my wife where she may feel cornered, forced to defend herself?<P>I am so confused!!!<P>The major part of a Plan A is for her to seize contact with the other man and she has not done that yet. She has moved back home with me and says she is willing to work things out with me. However, while I am at work I know she is chatting to him on MSN. Last night they spoke on the phone together and went for a brief walk. She wants us all to act like things were before all of this when we all were friends.<P>I hear the phone conversations they have. They argue about what is being said about them and how to fix their reputations. They also argue about the other guys, soon to be, ex-wife and how much of a b&#ch she is. His ex-wife let the news leak of the affair.<P>I have voiced my opinion about her contact with him and she thinks I am overreacting. She says I have nothing to worry about she is with me now. They just want to be friends. I haven't demanded that she iliminate all contact with him very strongly because in her state of mind she isn't really "hearing" me at this point. Would hearing the request, and the implecations of not iliminating contact with the other man, coming from a councellor open her eyes?<P>What to do, WHAT DO I DO?????????????<P>Any of you with similar stories got any suggestions?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

BRB - OK, let me take a stab at a few things.<P>First, I'm a guy whose wife's affair was also with a mutual friend. The other couple is in the midst of divorce proceedings. OM's wife in my case also was(is) very confrontational and spread the news.<P>If you're confused, you're normal. Rule 1: don't try to make sense out of what's happening. You are not dealing with rational people, so your normal thought processes won't work. This is exactly why you're confused.<P>Rule 2: don't be in a hurry. There is little, if anything, you can do to end contact between the affairees. They have to do this own their own.<P>It is a good decision to go to counseling by yourself. IF your W will go, good, but don't count on it and don't try to force her. Refer to Rule 2. Even if she does go, don't expect her to be an open minded participant. Refer to Rule 1.<P>If they are arguing on the phone, TERRIFIC!! Don't interfere. Don't let her find you listening.<P>Don't press the point about ending all contact. She is still "with you", although maybe only in a physical sense. Assume the affair is still in progress - don't buy the "just friends" explanation, but don't challenge it, either.<P>You are exactly correct about her "not hearing you." Whether a counselor can open her eyes is very speculative. Think of her as an addict. How many counselors can utter a few words and undo addictive behavior? Not many, if any. Rule 3: She has to decide to open her eyes.<P>Before you see the counselor on Monday, read everything you can on this site. This will give you topics for questions. Afterward, tell us what happened. In the meantime, give her space and don't make her mad about anything. Don't accuse her of mistakes and don't make judgements. Bite your lip and know that you can salvage this.<P>WAT

WAT<P>Your message has given me hope. You're suggesting just be the silent observer. I can handle that.<P>It hurts even more when I know she continues to be in contact with him. I can't understand how things will ever get any better between us if we both don't deviate from the status quo.<P>She still maintains contact with her lover, while I remain waiting for her to come back to me. Don't you think one of us should make a move? More likely me, obviously being the "addict" she won't.<P>Our situations seem to be similar. Did your wife maintain contact? How are things between you and her now? Who made the first move the begin the process of recovery between the two of you?<P>I have an idea! Please check out my new post entitled "Shall I take my cheating wife out on a date?"<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

BRB - I will check out your new post.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bluerodeoboy:<BR><B>Don't you think one of us should make a move? More likely me, obviously being the "addict" she won't. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Refer to rule 2 again. The only move you should make at the moment is to educate yourself on the physiology of the affair disease. Do your homework and don't make ANY moves regarding your wife.<P>A silent observer is one way to look at it. Here are some givens that you can pretty much be assured of:<P>1. The affair will end. To hasten it's end, do not interfere with it.<P>2. You are partly responsible for creating the environment which made the affair possible, and you need to examine yourself critically to see what changes you need to make, but you are NOT responsible for her decision to have an affair.<P>3. You are a prime candidate for depression - like most of the rest of us. See a doctor about this. You may need anti-depressants.<P>4. This will likely be the worst experience of your life. And it will not be resolved quickly. Hunker down for the long haul.<P>5. Your wife will act as if she has been abducted by aliens. Just watch and don't take any of this personally.<P>Yes, my wife has maintained contact and has never acknowledged that she is having/had an affair. We are still separated, but you're getting started on the right foot long before I did. I hope you don't have my experience.<P>WAT

D' OH!! I hate posting sometimes. I had a nice long reply and screwed it up.<P>Here is the abbreviated version.<P>No contact is a must. Absolutely positively no contact. Sorry WTD, but that is how it has to be.<P>Mine and Cat's situation was very similar, her A with a very good friend of ours nearly killed me as I'm sure my horrible marriage skills drove her to it. Regardless, no contact was an absolute must for me, especially after coming to this site and reading up on affairs. Needless to say, it was difficult and didn't work completely. Led to a couple of separations, divorce preparations, etc. But since our D-day 10/31/99, Cat and I are still together very much in love.<P>I won't say we didn't have our challenges, hurts, problems, etc, but we are here. <P>I'll keep in touch, but I've gotta run.<P>Allen

Blue,<BR>I had lost some of my perspective, that you do see the problem of continued contact, your question is more of what is the best way to handle this. My situation was a little different in that I busted my W on a PA 20 years ago & with the idea she was carrying on with two guys, it was not hard for her to understand that I wanted her to leave, at least for a while -- I had strong feelings that she should feel some consequences to her actions.<BR>I strongly suggest you RUN, NOT WALK TO CLOSEST CHRISTIAN BOOKSTORE & GET DOBSON'S BOOK "LOVE MUST BE TOUGH" You may not agree with all the principles, but I believe it is imperative to gain an important insight as to a way to manage this. <BR>Peace be with you,<BR>HH

Blue -<P>Okay, a woman's perspective - uhhhmmm - a former wayward wife opinion here.<P>Unlike many WS here, I was not "caught in the act." I confessed everything to my H. I was out of my mind during the affair - shortly after - and still to some degree. For me, I had read several books on surviving infidelity and rebuilding a marriage, but the concept of absolute no contact - well, I thought I was different, I thought my situation was unique, I thought that I was a strong person - that maybe no other WSs could handle being "just friends" with the OP, but I could, my marriage could survive that.<P>Unfortunately, I was terribly wrong. My A started out as a "Friendship" that went to an EA and then to a PA. All a long I knew that what I was doing was wrong, but I kept rationalizing my behavior - even thought that I didn't have an A until the PA happened. But whent he affair turned into a PA - there were no justifications, not rationalizations, I was in trouble, because I KNEW I had committed adultery. I knew it was wrong from the very beginning - but just couldn't say no to the relationship.<P>I don't want to ramble on that topic, but getting back to your situation. When I confessed everything to my H, I was sincerely and genuinely remorseful. I cried over how much pain and hurt I had caused my H, I couldn't figure out how I could have done something that I NEVER thought I could do. I went to confession (I'm Catholic) - I really wanted to try and work things out with my H, but I really didn't know how. I told the OM that I confessed everything to my H and that I wanted to try and work things out with him. The OM "laid low" for a couple of weeks, but still kept in contact with me.<P>This was long before I found this site or did any reading on how to survive infidelity. At any rate, contact with the OM continued. I knew in my heart I wanted to try and work things out with my H, I regretted the affair - everything, but the pull to the OM was still there, contact was still there. And, the vicious cycle started all over again. What started out, again, as "friendship," turned into an EA which eventually led to yet another PA.<P>Here, I had confessed everything to my H, wanted - sincerely to try and work things out - wanted nothing to do with the OM - and here I was making this huge mistake once again. Something I thought I would never do - suddenly I had done it TWICE!<P>Luckily for me, after this second incident with the same OM - I really needed to figure out what happened - how could I have done something that I was so against - something that I never thought I was even capable of doing. So, I got every book I could find on infidelity, I searched the Internet and found this site (Thank God). And, what I tried to do - or what started out as trying to figure out how this could have happened to me and my marriage - I ended up figuring out was was vital to saving my marriage.<P>AT first, I will be very honest, I had a lot of trouble with no contact - even when I read it in books and came on this site for advice - I really thought I was different - really thought I could "handle" things with the OM and keep it on a friends level only. My H was reading some of the same books - and he even thought "well, maybe this stuff works for other people, but if you can promise to keep it "just as friends," he kind of went along with my plan of action. The moment I knew I couldn't be friends with the OM? After the second PA, the OM knew I was trying to work things out with my H, knew that things weren't going great at that time, and he half jokingly invited me to "see his hotel room." Whether he was joking or not, I knew then that I could never be friends with someone that I committed adultery with.<P>For one, that "pull" or attraction would always be there, and I already knew that I have given in - not just once but twice - what would keep me from giving in a third time? It's kind of like alcohol or drug addiction - you know it's bad for you, but you just cannot stop. I really lacked self-control. Maybe your wife is different - or at least thinks she is different - but being in contact with the OM was like playing with matches - someone was going to get burned.<P>And, what I finally realized is that it just wasn't my H who was going to get "burned," it was me, too - and the OM. I had crossed the lines of friendship a long time ago, and I knew that I could never go back - pretend that nothing happened.<P>That doesn't mean I didn't have any setbacks. I was in full-fledged no contact for two months - OM calls - contact for a week - couldn't tell him I couldn't talk to him ever again - just avoided him, and sucessfully for another 4 months. OM didn't call me, I didn't call him - thought he got the hint - that I moved on and so should he - then bam out of the blue OM calls. This time, my H and I had been really working to imporve our marriage and his call made me really uncomfortable. At this point I was being completely honest with my H about EVERYTHING, and knew I had to tell him that the OM called - didn't want to anger or upset him - so it was almost like I hated that the OM called - that he would NEVER just leave me alone. So, for me and my sanity more than anything, I sent a second no contat letter - and haven't heard from the OM since - and that's a very good thing for my H, for me and for my marriage.<P>The reason I told you all of this, is because, even now, after about 14 months into recovery, I still get urges to contact the OM. IT's not that I'm going to leave my H, it's not that I want to start up the affair, but the hardest part fore me was not ending the sexual relationship - but ending the inappropriate emotional bond I had with the OM. IT's really hard to do that - but in order to save my marriage I knew it had to be severed - swiftly and thoroughly.<P>So, while your wife may not realize or want to realize the importance of no contact, I hope - eventually - that she learns that keeping in contact with the OM is not only "playing with fire," but it's also being very disrespectful to you and your marriage. She did not take a vow with this person to be "friends" forever before God - she took (I'm assuming here) a vow before you and God and other people to have, to love, no others beside you. So, out of love and respect for you and her/your marriage , no contact is not only the best thing for your marriage, but its the best shot she has of escaping the "addictive-like" emotional attachment she has to the OM.<P>Right now, I think she really is in the fog - where other people's perceptions of her are more important than her relationship with you. The only thing I can say, is that time away from the OM is necessary in order to break that bond. Right now, she only wants to do what is comfortable. She says she is with you and you can trust her to be only friends with the OM, but out of respect for your feelings and your marriage - she should break all contact with the OM. Really, until that happens, I don't know that you can truly rebuild your marriage, make things any better than before the A.<P>And, for me, too, I was hesitant to break contact with the OM, because I really had doubts that I loved my H or that we should evn be married at all. Those doubts faded - but only after contact had ended.<P>If you can, counseling - for your wife and you - would probably help. My H and I never got formal counseling, but we have read some of the books on this site - and others - that have helped. The very first book I read was "Infidelity: Your complete Survivor's Guide." That's where I started, that's where "no contact" was first introduced to me as a concept and has been reinforced by coming on this site and posting.<P>I don't want to alarm you or anything like that. And, I certainly don't think you can make demands on your wife right now - because, really, I still think she is somewhat in the fog. The physical part of the affair may have ended but the emotional attachment is still very present (especially if she is taking long walks with him). In order for you to recover your marriage, from my perspective (and I've been where your wife is now), contact has to end.<P>You need to get your wife to the point where she sees for herself that her marriage is more important than maintaining contact with the OM. Right now, she may not feel that way, and making demands on her will only push her further away. But, that's where you need to do the Plan A thing - attract her back to you, have her read stuff on infidelity - the importance of no contact - get some of the books recommended - ask her to read them. And, maybe, in time, she WILL figure it out for herself, just like I did.<P>The thing is, really, even though the physical part of the affair may be over, I really don't think the emotional part has ended, and for me that was the toughest to get through, but it can be done.<P>I hope I didn't discourage you at all. There are several things that are VERY positive about your situation - first of all your wife still wants to try to work things out. That's a very very good thing. I was somewhat naive when I started in recovery - thinking I could be married and still be friends with the OM, and what I learned was that I was being very selfish - thinking only of myself, what I wanted, what I could tolerate, never wanting anyone to tell me what to do, what not to do - and what I finally put into perspective is that the most important relationship that I can have with another human being is the relationship between me and my H - that comes first over every other relationship. That's not to say I don't have any friends, but now, I won't do anything that jeopardizes that relationship. But it takes time to get to this point. Heck, it took me over a year. . . Don't be discourage, but you need to stand up for what you believe in, do everything you possibly can to save your marriage, and hope that you wife comes to realize the importance of no contact.<P><BR>

Dear SKM,<P>(tears in my eyes)<P>The words you wrote are very inspirational. I sincerely appreciate your openness with your answer. What also touched me was that your opinion comes from the WS point of view.<P>I found out about the affair over a week ago. I was going crazy mentally. I had so many questions, theories, images, feelings, etc. All of which were making me ill. I never in my live ever kept a diary or a journal until this occured. Over the weekend I purchased a writing journal for which I have been able to fill about 30 double sided pages of writing.<P>From time to time I have quoted parts of some of the responses I have received because they were worth noting. It would be a honor if you would let me place a full printed version in my journal for my own inspiration.<P>Slowly I have been learning that my wife's affair was emotional and physical. The physical is over, but the emotional is not. Funny thing is that earlier this week I thought about how much our present situation reminded me of how things were between them only six months ago. Right now, with all that has happened, they want to continue "just being friends". Going for walks occationally, tonight they are going to a movie, and talking on the phone. Only six months ago that is where their relationship was at as well and then they got closer and closer and the physical affair began.<P>I see that this can be a vicious circle. If the physical affair began a second time I don't know how I would cope.<P>It has raised new questions for me in which I will address them in a new post entitled "How do I present WS with "no contact consequences" without coming across as "controlling"?<P>Again, thank-you for your honesty SKM. You and I will share a written bond.<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

All the answers here have great merit and you'll need to decide which is best for you.<P>I'm with WAT, though. Robert lived with PT for months and when he moved back home THEY had decided they should be friends, "really close friends". After all they had shared a life and anything else is juvenile, right?<P>AAUUUGGGHHHH, ok, fine, but just tell me when the two of you talk, ok? I'm not stupid. I know from my MIL that she planned to win him back and she pulled out all the stops. She Plan A'd her little patooty off while they were being "friends". I do not believe in ultimatums. I would never be comfortable if I thought I had forced their separation. Since they worked together it would give him an excuse to lie (WS's aren't very strong or healthy at first during recovery) and I'd always wonder and SO WOULD HE! So, I let it be.<P>Know, what, it was tough. And she was good. But I was Plan Aing my little butt off! And, eventually, he just plain ole got over it. She started getting on his nerves! He didn't take her calls adn didn't call her back. Didn't stop when he'd run in to her and she tried to flag him down. He had her transferred and forgot to tell me. That's how long it had been since I had even thought to ASK if he'd seen or talked to her. It lost it's sting.<P>So.....I don't worry if she stops by the site and he sees or speaks to her - he's seen her for what she is. He WOULDN"T have if they had ceased contact...he'd have remembered her as the sweet little thing who he hurt like everyone else did. He doesn't worry what to do if he sees her, she just doesn't affect him - no fond memories, they've been erased. And he doesn't have to worry about how I'll react when he tells me (which he does when it infrequently happens now - every couple of months down from 10-12 times per DAY!) 'cause I really don't care.<P>Be ever vigilant.....it's a difficult time. But the fact of the matter is, you can't force anything they don't really want inside. I never pretended to him it didn't bother me, told him it would but that it had to be his decision. For some reason, giving him that power had a lot more impact that making demands.<P>But that's just our experience.<P>Lori

Hey bud, I feel for you. I don't have a 'success' story, but I'll tell you what happened with me, in brief.<P>My WS had an EA that turned into a PA that lasted about 2 and a half months before I discovered it. All the red flags were there, but I just kept ignoring them, giving her the benefit of the doubt. It still played on me though because I knew in my heart what was happening and it drove me into a depression. When I was hitting the bottom, I found out about the PA. The OM was a coworker of hers.<P>I tried to Plan A for about a month. She had decided not to live with me during that time, so it made it very hard. She also continued to work with him and probably saw him more than me. She had ended the PA in an attempt to work on us, but she was stuck heavily in the 'fog'. I really liked the comment WAT made about her acting like she was adbucted by aliens (LOL!), but it's so true. It's like a whole different person is walking around impersonating my WS. After that month, I could see she was making no progress and couldn't make more than a half hearted effort at reconcilliation. It was then that I ended the relationship.<P>She's gone back to the OM (no surprise), and I'm trying to go on with my life. I doubt that I would ever take her back, at least I tell myself that in order to sever the ties between us. Letting go hurts, but I also feel much better today than I did trying to work things out. Some things to consider:<P>1) Right out of Harley's book there is a quote that reads something like, "Most affairs end 6 months after seeing the light of day"<P>2) "Affairs are based on fantasy, not reality"<P>3) There is almost a role reversal at work here, my WS contacts me about once a week, even just for trivial things or to discuss moving out. I also see her at work on occassion. Suddenly, I am the 'OM' and the contact she has with me will play on her relationship with the OM. Harley talks about reconcilliation being almost impossible with the OM 'waiting in the wings'.... well I believe that both the OM and her feel that I am in the background, even if in reality I have decided not to be, or whatever the case may be. And this will make their success difficult if not impossible.<P>4) If and when she ever comes out of that 'fog', I believe that she will try to come back to me. Like I said before I doubt that I would allow it, but I'll have to cross that bridge when I come to it. And if I happen to find someone else that makes me happy in the meantime.... what a mistake she will have made. I know, I'm not exactly Harley material, but I just wanted to show you the road that's been shown to me.<P>Best of luck to you and know that in the end, you _will_ get through this and you _will_ be a better person for it. Take care,

Blue -<P>In reading over my post to your question, I really didn't like my answer too much. I mean it was honest, but it really left out something I need to say to you and to all BSs, and I used to do this all the time in my earlier posts, but anyway, here it is.<P>I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you are going through this horrible experience. I'm sorry that you have been hurt, that you feel betrayed, that you have been betrayed. You never deserved to have this happen to you. Nobody deserves to be treated the way I treated my H for the 6 months during the EA/PA, nor should they have to endure what my H has endured for over a year.<P>But, I can only tell you to stand tall, don't doubt yourself or question your capabilities and limitations. Fix your goal on the long-term. I asked my H about a hundred times a day how he could get through this - after all I put him through - and he always answers "because I love you, and I want to live the rest of my life with you as my wife." My H is an amazingly caring, compassionate and loving man. And, I deeply regret that I took him for granted, that I never really appreciated him for the man that he was, or the values he represents. He loves me for who I am and not what I did. He did not like the situation I put him in, but he never stopped loving me.<P>And, to me, that is absolutely amazing. Your wife may not appreciate how much you love her and want her in your life now, but I hope and pray that she does. For me, I know that I love my H more today than I did yesterday, and I know that I will love him even more tomorrow. It's not the fairy tale ending that I would like, but it the reality is that God put my H in my life for a reason, and I am very very thankful that he is in my life.<P>So, don't be discouraged. Anything in life worth having takes time and effort. I really, and truly think that my H and I have a better marriage now - not because of the affair, but inspite of it. My H always focused on his long-term goals, and when I was being irritable, moody, selfish, he always tried to look past that - to see what he really wanted to do. There will always be ups and downs in our marriage, but now I know we can weather them together.

I love you SKM. I don't mean that literally, but your words always make me cry. Part of me wishes you were my wife, or maybe it is that I wish my wife were more like you. Out of the fog, and realizing what she did to me and how much I have stood by her through all she has done to me.<P>That is love, whatever this man is providing her emotionally right now is nothing.<P>Today is a down day for me. If your interested I posted my thoughts under that same title.<P>Thanks for your words.<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

Blue - <P>You have to remember that I was right where your wife is now - just over a year ago. I had doubts that I EVER loved my H to begin with, I had doubts that we were compatible. <P>So, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if I can change, so can your wife. Just try to hang on to that. I was really a mess. I know you don't know my full story, but my H also had to suffer through two of my suicide attempts, in addition to the infidelity. Sometimes, and at least for me, things got a lot worse before they got better, but they did get better. Hang in there. <P>You're 100% correct, what the OM is "giving her" is nothing compared to the true love you are showing - right now - at this moment. Do you ever watch Baseball? I don't know what country you are from, but if you watch American Baseball you'll know what I mean. . .You are having one bad inning here, but just because you are having a bad inning doesn't mean you've lost the game. Bring in a fresh pitcher (encouragement), put in your heavy hitters (love, affection, kindness, compassion), and then wait for the homerun. The game isn't over yet. . .you haven't lost but have everything to gain.<P>FYI, I was interested in your other post and posted a response. I know you're having a really bad time of it, but just because things really stink right now - doesn't mean they're always gonna stink.

BRB - excuse me for just a second;<P>SKM - please continue your baseball analogy to state we DON'T need a "designated hitter." This is the root of many of our problems in this country - including the energy shortage out west because American League games take so long to complete, requiring more electricity for the lights.<P>WAT