Trying to learn what Plan A is all about. Where is the line when Plan A becomes appeasment. Tough Love says we should not let WS continue A if still living in the marriage. Where is tough love in Plan A? <P>I feel like someone stole my life and I want to get it back. With or without the WS. I am starting to run on empty and see so little hope.<P>

Have you read Plan A through completely? It is not about tough love at ALL. Plan B is about tough love. How much do you know about the Plans??<P>I can post a link, if you need more info.

tossed,<P>sorry, no tough love in plan A, in fact tought love won't work at all, and that's what she is expecting. Plan a is about you working on you, so you can see how you contributed to the A. Also, you must treat her like a queen, and be her friend. This will seem like you are inabling her, it is grossly unfair ,and you will feel like a doormat. All of this is counterintutive. But it works! Read all you can on plan A and make you paln and stick to it. Schedule a call with Steve H if you can afford it. Get Surviving an affair, His needs/Her needs/ and love busting, all by Willard Harley.<P>Good luck and hang in ther.<P>JK<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tossedwave:<BR><B>Trying to learn what Plan A is all about. Where is the line when Plan A becomes appeasment. Tough Love says we should not let WS continue A if still living in the marriage. Where is tough love in Plan A? <P>I feel like someone stole my life and I want to get it back. With or without the WS. I am starting to run on empty and see so little hope.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

tossedwave, I understand your feelings. ALl of us do.<BR>There are so many different approaches and each one of them will work - or not - depending on the people involved, the problem itself and how reactions affect the problem.<P>THough love can certainly work. ANd yes that's what plan b is about. However it does not work in all cases, like the softer approach of plan a will not work in all cases.<P>Knwoing our spouses like we do, it's usually easier to instinctively have an idea of what might or not work.<P>I tend ot think that in a big percentage of the cases - but not generalizing - though love works if : <BR>1.the affair has been going on for a while, spouse has gone trough quite a few of the stages and reality is starting to set, althouhg leaving dreamland is difficutl so there's still the tendency to hold onto the dream.<BR>2. There is a part of our spouse that is already regreting the affair, but on the other hand it's still something pleasant so things are just on hold until action is taken ( plan b will be the action)<P>On the other hand, though love might make things worse. I can tell you one thing. Had I used tough love, I would have given my h the excuse he was looking for at that time to just go ahead and cut all ties. Knowing him, I also knew that if he did that and regreted it later on ( or right away ) he would never acknowledge to the mistake or regret and we would not be having the great time we are having now. <P>I learned that it is really important to think carefull before choosing which approach to use, and also that there are no right or wrong way to do it. Each of the people I met here that were able to recover fully has used a mix of different approaches, and that's what it's all about. Know yourself, your spouse, what each action might bring as a result and avoid acting impulsively.<P>AS for plan A it is not about doing nothing just to appease our spouse. It includes a loot of work and It's about following a course that we feel might help and that uses very important factors:<P>The fact that often before the affair a deterioration of the relationship is present, usually with symptoms that vary from obvious to so subtle that are difficult to find.<BR>The fulfillment of needs, the flexiblility, the apparent calm and pleasant feelings might correct the problems or part of them, enough to help spouse to "wake up".<P>Another factor is surprise.THe spouse is certainly waiting for a big scene as the whole thing is discovere. Might even be prepared for it.The though love approach is certainly expected.<BR>Well the element of surprise can create incredible response. Just enough to get him/her thinking a bit, which is one of the most important steps in recovery.<P>SO as I said any approach that you feel might work is worth to try. But only you know your spouse well enough to get the idea of how he/she will react to each choice.<BR>Hugs<P>Kat<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

I guess I have a question ... how come so many of us on this board had to resort to Plan B to save our marriages? <P>Unfortunately, what I found in Plan A is that it made my H not only treat me like a doormat, but he was very smug about it - as though I were "lucky" that he even came back (even though he was still dating the OW at the time). Whenever I Plan A'd, it was never good enough. Apparently, I should have been kissing his lily-white a** and begging him to stay on bended knee. I dunno, wearing a hairshirt. <P>I have conflicting emotions about Plan A. If you have a person who isn't out to point the Great Finger of Blame, i think it can work; but so many times the WS just wants a whipping boy/girl. "Yes, master. No, master." That kind of thing. <P>Where DO they get off?????<P>belld

OK, guys, my take on it... Plan B basically <B>is</B> Tough Love... But Harley's concept is that there is usually a <B>reason</B> why the affair happened... The reason being that the BS somehow failed to meet the WS's needs, and that's why WS went looking elsewhere.<P>If we accept that philosophy (and many do not, so let's not get into that here), then Harley's approach is that you (the BS) need to demonstrate to the WS that you <B>can</B> meet their needs. That is Plan A, when you work on <B>yourself</B> to show the WS that you can be the perfect spouse. Yup, it often feels like being a doormat, but the point is that when you go into Plan B (and BTW, Harley believes that most cases <B>do</B> require going to Plan B) the WS will see what they're missing. <P>If you jump into Plan B right at d-day, the WS may not feel much of a loss, because obviously they didn't think very highly of you to begin with...<P>Hope this helps!<P>AGG

Hi Belldandy actually a lot of us didn't even got to plan B.<BR>ANd no, I can tell you that I didn't feel like a doormat. MY self confidence took a dive but not that much.<BR>Plan A allowed both of us to reassess what we wanted to do without the pressure of an ultimatum or drastic measures.<BR>Plan A works from yourself out, not as a complete zombie ready to do whatever the spouse wants but rather looking at what might have been wrong before and correcting what we feel can be corrected. <BR>It avoids the power struggle of do what I ask or else, which for some people is the best incentive for the "or else" <P>ANd even when it doesn't work leaves you with the self confidence and knowledge that you did your part. If the other side did not respond it certainly is not your fault, or responsability.<P>AS for plan b it does work at times, but it also backfires at times.<BR>I know of some people for which it worked. And I"m glad it did.<BR>I also know some people for which it didn' work at all.<BR>Case#1 SPouse felt pressured into ending an affair that wasn't ready to end. TO avoid conflict decided to say that the affair was over.<BR>FOr the next few months, wife worked on the assumption that things were going the right way, untill it finally came to light that the affair was as strong as ever.<BR>It would have worked better if there were no wrong assumptions. Preferible to know what we are up against than not.<BR>Case#2 Affair was just starting. ON being confronted and given an ultimatum, husband felt like wining the lotery. What he wanted was being given to him on a platter. SHe was actually telling him that he could either choose to stay with her - which at that point he didn't, really - or would be invited to leave. His choice? leave of course.<BR>After the affair run its course he finally figured out it really wasn't all that was cracked to be, but never got back to his wife either.<P>Does it always work like that? Not really, but in my experience and from a lot I've learned here, case #1 is high on the list. <P>Good guy, I actually see plan A in a different light. I did not work under the assumption that the affair happened because of some needs that I left unmet, neither do I actually accept the blame for what happened.<BR>When I started plan A - actually plan A didn't really exist in this board, not in these terms or with this name. What I looked for was any weakness in our marriage, even if they seemed minimal. Well there were many things from lack of work due to a few lay offs in a row, to deaths in the family and friends, to serious illness, to family problems. ALl causes of stress. The lack of confidence created by the difficulty to provide for his family the way he felt he should, was frustrating. The need for many extra jobs made our life resemble more two strangers than a couple.If and when we had a chance to be at home at the same time,we tended to take the time to either rest - there was no energy for anythign else - or be there for the kids. COuple time hardly existed.<BR>We were spending more time with coworkers than together.<BR>Was that my fault? Not in a millin years. I never assumed responsabilty for that one. I just took the time to look back and notice that for quite some time, even thought on the surface things looked fine, on a deeper level we were becoming strangers.<BR>Now why did I decide to work on it, instead of waiting for him to do so? Because, my friend at that stage of the ball game he wasn't able to think above the waist. Someone had to start , I decided that I was comfortable that that person be me.<BR>I did not work on myself to show I could be the perfect wife, there is no perfect. And I know that it certainly wasn't the best idea to try and be someone else. I am who I am , even if I can change some things, I can't become another person.<BR>What I kept in mind was that who I am was actually the person he chose to marry. SO that was not what needed changing. Our schedules needed changing. Again I was the only person able to do so at the moment. And that's what I did.<BR>I didn't need to work on plan A to show h what he would be missing. He knew that part well.<BR>I worked on plan A to remind h how we could be if we stoped being strangers and become a couple again.<P>ANd that's how it worked.<BR>Sorry, no feeling of doormat, no feeling that he was having his cake and eating it too, and no feeling that I was allowing him to disrespect me.<BR>I acutally felt very calm. I decided early on the process that it was important for me to decide if I still wanted my marriage or not. SOme people don't.<BR>After making my decision I went about achieving my goal letting each of us have the choice of what to do but giving a certain amount of time for the choice to be made. No pressure. WHen he "woke up " from fantasy land, he woke up by himself. He made the decision of staying, I did't make it for him. <BR>Later on, if something ever happens, he knows as well as I do, that I didn't pressure him into leaving ow - although I might have felt I wanted to - he was the one who decided he wanted to stay and leave her.Actually, just for the record, I did stay back and allowed the ow to... mess up herself. As she thought she was "wining" she was actually starting to act like a "wife" questioning his time away from her, making ultimatums herseld, doing all those real life things he thought only I did. I have to confess she worked quite well towards our recovery, sometimes I wonder if I should thank her LOLShe really did a good job of bother him enough for him to go through all the stages faster.<P>As for me, I learned a lot about myself in the process , regardless of the outcome. I became stronger and although I'm not here saying that it was a good thing that the affair happened, I am saying that all the things that were addresses at that time, really needed to be discussed.<P>Hugs<BR>Kat<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

Belldandy--does your H have any substance abuse problems? I too have conflicting emotions about Plan A. I have read it over and over but still see it as appeasement maybe because my circumstances with H having a alcohol problem is a detrimental element. I have made major changes over the years to be a better person all around and always have been aware of the need to work on our marriage but never could I get H to "look" my way and see working on things as an option. His drinking always played a major part in the lack of relationship between us. So I detached and affection died but friendship continued. We are surprisingly very compatiable except when it comes to addressing the drinking or anything related to his wayward tendencies.<P>Thank you all for clarifying there is no tough love in Plan A....helps to put more understanding on it.<P>TO ALL---how do you know if Plan A is having an effect? It has been 6 weeks since D-Day and my H is rarely here. If he isn't with her (I never know), he is with other buddies (which could be men or women). I want to do some things and not feel like I am sitting around waiting but never know when he will be home. don't want to be absent from the home alot cause I fear it will be another excuse by H to say I am not meeting his needs. I feel like I can't correct anything about my relationship with him cause he is totally unavailable to me. <P>Katb----what do you mean that H was forced to end an affair that was not ready to end?<P>Thanks for all being here and letting each of us sort through this GARBAGE!!!!<P>

Well, I keep trying not to post, but then I see my sis Kat and I have to chime in here... (Hi, Honey! I know, owe you an e-mail - it's coming!!)<P>I'm sorry, I don't believe that Plan A has a think in the world to do with being a doormat.<P>I agree with Kat. I think the impression on Plan A on the boards now is much different than when we were here wayyyyy back when! I has absolutely nothing to do with being a doormat or losing self-respect or treating anyone like royalty. It's doable, LIFETIME SUSTAINABLE behavior and that means personal growth for YOU!! It affects not only your relationship with your spouse, but with your children, friends, coworkers, other family and most of all, yourself. I actually wrote on another thread that my confidence GREW while he was gone....no matter what he said or did. In fact, I continued Plan A after D-day, after Robert left me and moved in with PT, after he asked for a divorce, the entire time. I didn't think I had a snowball's chance in hell for him to come home, but this Plan A stuff was for ME! I pretty much looked at it like Kat said. There were boundaries before he left and afterward. I treated him as a human being that I loved and believed in, but certainly not a king. I also treated myself with more respect as well. I never stopped loving him, I never stopped believing that somewhere in there there was the wonderful man I had known all these years. I never stopped believing that, if given the chance, we could have a wonderful marriage and I could show him how (not TELL him how, mind you, show him.) I had enough of that danged "personal growth" to last a lifetime (I thought, but it's kinda fun, so I think I'll keep it up)!!<P>If you're only 6 weeks into this, you haven't even BEGUN Plan A. That's not long enough for you to believe in yourself, much less for him to see changes! <P>As to how long it takes for it to have an effect - it depends. But I tell you what, you won't know for a while, even though it IS having an effect. Look at it this way. A lovebuster's like a hurricane. It rolls through and damages everything and causes him to batten down the hatches and prepare all his resistance. Plan A is more like one tiny drop of water after another......looks like it's not having an effect at all, til one day you look and the mountain's worn away and the river's running the way it was meant to. In the long run, it has a much greater effect. <P>I know a lot of folks who continued in Plan A and succeeded in regaining their marriages adn some who didn't as well. There are just as many stories of those who went to Plan B and succeeded or never saw their spouse again. Remember, Plan B is NOT to win your spouse back. It is to protect you and to prepare you for the eventuality of divorce if that should happen. Though it saves your love for your spouse for a while, the lack of contact eventually works like "no contact" does for the wayward...love fades, the pain fades and you're ready if you divorce. You don't make this decision lightly and you don't go back and forth...otherwise you lose credibility....with YOURSELF more than anyone. And remember, the Harley's recommend implementing Plan B only after a highly successful Plan A for a fair period of time (no lb's, consistant, strong behavior in your opinion). <P>You know, Robert and I didn't talk at all about us those months he was living with PT. I was growing and learning for me, being nice to him 'cause I actually felt like it! He maintained the entire time that he wanted a divorce, we never should have married, yadda, yadda yadda. As late as 1/1 he said that he was never coming home, would never look back. I only knew that he had noticed something 'cause he told his mom "There's something about Lori now, Mom, I really LIKE her. She's still Lori, just more somehow." But within two weeks after that conversation on New Years, he, out of the blue, asked to talk about coming home. I wasn't sure whether to scream, cry or run naked in the street. Plan A DOES work, you just can't always see it. B works for some as well, but I thought then adn I know now, it wouldn't have worked for us. I now know that it stayed in his head that I always loved and believed in him and that he was AMAZED by that strength! See what I mean? I think it's all in the implementation and THAT depends on how you feel about yourself as to whether you're a doormat or STRONG...in your eyes and the eyes of your spouse. I found out that my MIL and other in-laws felt the same way..couldn't believe how strong I was. My stubborn brother who divorced 10 years or more ago (and advised me to give up many times) told me later that he wondered what might have happened in HIS life if his ex had been so sure and strong. Hmmmmmmm....<P>Give yourself some more time. At six weeks, you're still raw and things will start to even out a bit for you.<P>And btw, you have TWO success stories here,now. Kat and me and Robert. He's been home almost a year and 1/2 after being gone a few months and we're doing great! We truly ARE building that marriage that I still believe in and I rarely think of the affair or PT at all! This stuff can work and you have what it takes to do it!<P>Hang in there.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited June 07, 2001).]

Hello tossedwave. <BR>WHat I mean by that is that his affair had not gone through all the stages yet. <BR>I know that when we look at it, any affair should be ready to end. But if there is one thing I learned is that usually affairs go through different stages. <BR>It can end at any of them, and work, I've seen many cases here, but generaly there seems to be more of a tendency of not ending completely when it's in the begining - the total and complete fantasy: op is not even completely real, no faults, nothing. Everything is way too perfect to let go. EVen when there is a try to end it, there's really more tendency to go back, because the what would it be with this person is quite strong at that time.<BR>As the affair progresses the op starts to become a more real. SOme faults are finally discovered, anoying habits are revealed stuff like that.SOmetimes after this stage it's easier for the affair to end.<BR>HOw about long term affairs? There can be many reasons for that, but one that I found often is that although all the stages passed, a kind of routine was set.AFfair becomes kind of an habit, something the person is used to. ANd as with any habit, it's difficult to break.<P>Hope this was what you wanted to know, and do keep in mind that every situation is different, and no everythign works with everyone.<P>Now in your case there is another factor that needs to be considered.The alchool problem is certainly something that needs to be worked out. But that is something that you have little control over. It blends with the whole thing, but it is a problem that is his, and needs to be worked out by him.<BR>From what I read however he has trouble addressing that , talking about it.<BR>I don't really know what to tell you other that heneeds to work on it. I don't have that experience so I can't tell you of ways to approach it or help solving it.<BR>Maybe someone in this board can help you better on this subject, because it's an important issue.<P>As to know when plan A is working... well you would start seing some small differences. A better communication, small signs here and there that he is ready or willing to work with you on your marriage, little by little more time spent with you, in some cases even distancing himself from some of the "friends" that where there through the affair. He would start showing a bit more consideration for you - something that many times seems to disapear during the affair or when a relationship is not at its best, listening more to you, being more talkative and open, talking more about things that are on his mind.. things like that.<P>As for plan A, it's very important to understand that it's not done to say "yes master" to everything spouse wants. How could it be? SOme might even manipulate a spouse using plan A using the approach " see... you're not meeting my needs , that's why I'm doing what I'm doing". That's a no-no .Nothing could be more wrong than that, and this would not help rebuilding. There is nothing that the BS do that can justify an affair, because there is no justification for an affair.<P>Things that are important in plan A are:<BR>. working on yourself for yourself. Do wahtever helps you to keep you level of confidence as high as it can be under the circumstamces.<BR>Take time to yourself so you can be calm and feel confident with what you do.<P>. Create a pleasant environment at home. Make it something that is nice to come to.- Yes, it's important to discuss the issues, but if every time spouse is home things become a battlefield or the only thing discussed is the affair, it is not helping . There are times for everything. Pleasant conversation, neutral if possible. All the stuff that used to be done before.<P>. Pay attention to needs, but don't go overboard.FUlfil what you think you can without ressenting the all situation. Think back when your relationship started. WHEn things were working well. SOmetimes with all the pressures in life we do have a tendency to forget the small things.<BR>( warning here: sometimes spouse has a problem to accept things from us , don't force them, but don't withdraw them either. Look for signs of readiness)<P>. When discussing the situation or the affair, try to be calm and concentrate on the problem, not the people involved. NO matter how much if feels to start bashing the op it's not how the conversation should go.It is about you and your spouse and your relationship.<BR>ALso blame is not the issue either. what is happening to your relationship is, regardless of whose fault it is or who did what or started what.<P>. Be firm but flexible at the same time( I know it's a contradiction ). Plan A is not about alowing the situation to continue indefinetely. It's about working on issues that need to be worked and see if your relationship can mend but with the understanding that the affair needs to end of course.<P>. NO matter how unfair it seems , leave your spouse the power of making the decision by himself.( although you can certainly "help") Making him feel powerless in the decision making sometimes backfires. Noboday likes to have someone else making decisions for us.<P>There are many more things, but I'm running late for work <BR>HOpe this helped.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P><P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

OK, maybe I should clarify my point. I completely agree that Plan A is all about working on yourself and making yourself into who you want to be. That's the easy part . The reason so many people in Plan A feel the doormat syndrome is that Plan A specifically says that <B>you need to meet all the EN's that the WS allows you to meet</B> (sorry, Kat, you <B>do</B> have to try to meet WS's needs per Harley's philosophy). And believe me, trying to meet the EN's of someone who is continuing their affair in front of your face <B>does</B> take a tremendous toll on the self-esteem. You guys can tell me all you want that it shouldn't get to you, but it does.<P>Now, Lori, I gotta tell you something that I wanted to tell you ever since you posted to me a number of months ago, telling me that you don't believe in Plan B, and that Plan A is the way to go (I'm paraphrasing). I've been thinking about you story qute a bit, and I'm gonna go out on the limb here, so easy with the chainsaw . I am hereby claiming that <B>you were not in Plan A at all, but rather in Plan B!</B>. Robert was out of the house, and I believe you said that you two talked a total of about 2-3 times in the eight months apart. Right? You say that you were working on yourself, and preserving your love for Robert. That's still Plan B.<P>What I'm saying, Lori, and I am not saying this in any way to diminish your success, is that you were not forced to deal on a daily basis with an in-your-face WS, with their daily antics and indecision. You had the freedom to detach from Robert, continue to love him, but to be able to go on with your life. That is Plan B. This is exactly what I am doing right now, and I can tell you that after living with my WS for the prior 8 months and doing my Plan A, that this (Plan B) is a much better and easier place to be.<P>Anyway, you know you have always been my idol here, so don't take this wrong. But I do feel very strongly that living with a WS and doing a Plan A (per Harley directions) does have a very strong doormat element to it. Only in Plan B, which is much closer to what you (Lori) actually did, can you achieve the sense of peace that is referred to here.<P>All IMO, of course. Add $.98 and you get a dollar .<P>AGG

Hi Lori didnt see ya there when I was posting this morning. Maybe because I was a bit in a hurry.<BR>Nice to see ya and I'll wait for that e-mail LOL<P>Good guy, do you ever follow everything exactly as its said and without room for some input of your own?<BR>Plan A is not that rigid. You adapt . You use what you see working and discard what is not.<BR>Plan A didn't even really existed until just recently. MB forum was here, but there was never mention of plan A or B. Just guidelines, suggestions of things that had helped with other people. ANd the emotional needs concept.<BR>Each one of us, picked up whatever we felt might be useful, you weren't following plan A, we were creating our own.<BR>HAs good and interesting as I find Dr. Harley's philosophy, there is not one only way of working things out. I agree with most of the concepts as long as I am free to adapt what works for me and what doesn't. <BR>Yes you have to try and fulfill needs, but what if some make you ressent the situation more than others? WIll the benefit of fulfilling a need become null if by fulfilling that need you are ressenting what you're doing, feeling used or just plain angry? Wouldn't that then become another problem because feeling like that you would not be able to plan a the way you should?<P>There is nothing in the world that will work perfectly and in 100% cases. And things that are not flexible have a tendency to fail more than not.<BR>SO I guess I can do plan a, withouth fulfilling every single need, if I try to meet the ones I'm able to do without resentment and wait to work on the other ones when the timing is right.<P>Is this more difficult than plan B? I guess it depends on how you see it. I didn't think in terms of difficulty level but rather in terms of what were my goals and what would be the best way to reach them.<BR>Is it hard to plan a, while we know that our spouse is still in the affair? Sure, but personally it is easier to me to deal with the situation if spouse is close and in touch, than if he's away and out of touch, and I just have my imagination to fill in the gaps.<P>In any case I am not here to say that one solution is better than the other. As I always point out, every single situation is different and will respond to different "strategies". Each person has to find the one that works, mostly by trial and error.<P>Kat<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

tossedwave,<P>Yes, my H has substance abuse problems for which he was in therapy. He also has a personality disorder for which he takes medication and sees a psychiatrist. If anything, Plan A made him treat me even worse than before - as in, MUCH worse. He had the most profound disrespect for me. I think that he disrespected me because he intuitively knew that *I* knew the EMR was still going on and I wasn't kicking him out, as most people would do. So to his mind, I had low self-esteem. I was just begging to be treated pathetically. <P>Once I went to Plan B, that's when the begging and the courting began. He was totally destroyed. I hung up when he called, refused to answer emails or have anything to do with him. Once I showed him that I had enough respect for myself to not tolerate him in my life while he was still seeing the XOW, she was history. The "tough love" approach was what I apparently should have done to begin with. It would have saved me nine months of trying to "prove" to my H that I was, to his mind, a complete and utter wimp with no self-respect.<P>belld<BR>

Hi, back, Kat!<P>Hi, to you AGG! If I've left the wrong impression, I need to clarify. I do not NOT believe in Plan B. It wasn't right for ME, but I've actually recommended it before to friends here and still would under the right circumstances. I have difficulty believing that Plan B is the best thing for children and even K couldn't convince me otherwise and he can, a lot of times, bring me around! My views on parenting and kids are emotional and fixed in stone generally, so I never can understand where a parent's feelings take precedence. Now for all you out there, this is not yet again, another opportunity to change Lori's mind or blast her and I don't need any more emails telling me to butt out (your Plan B thread brought forth a number of those, AGG! It was interesting in the old mailbox for a while!). We don't need to debate it, in three years, there's not one single argument I've not heard, considered and dismissed. But, like I said, I have recommended it in the past and might again under the right circumstances. But Hey, I'm just a person here, not a trained professional (before anyone else feels the need to point that out to me) and I follow K in recommending that the professionals are better qualified. I will never recommend Plan B if there has been no effective Plan A. This post is simply to clarify my position.<P>Now, you're right in a sense, Robert DID try to Plan B me! I did live with the affair in my face up until he left and I chose to Plan A then, though not as long as you did. He even called home one night from her house and said the movie had run late and asked, since it was more than an hour home, if he could spend the night with her! (Uh, no, go stay with your mom). It's not easy. Not at all. And, since recovery began, I also lived with PT contact, friendship, a wealth of other stuff that would have sent many into Plan B! Not me. And it's all over now. I have said I CALLED him only 3-4 times while he was gone, but he called and stopped by here as well. So, we sorta talked or saw each other much more often, even more later on. In between, I wrote letters to him every single week, about stuff going on here, Kristin, etc. Great letters - I used to call them my long-distance Plan A. I continued to only tell him I loved him and believed in him every time I saw him, I did NOT speak of us or the affair. I never refused to see him as long as he was carrying on with PT or issue an ultimatum (which, in essence, is Plan B). The last month or two, he actually called or came by fairly often and I was wonderful each time!! I constantly wore my rings and when he asked, maintained that I was married, no matter what he did. A year and 1/2 down the road from getting back together, we have talked about virtually everything. He had come to a point while he was gone that this was his life, he'd better make it good. That's the day he called here and asked for all sorts of stuff to change addresses, titles, etc. He was moving on. He said he had decided to never return, no matter what happened with PT. He's gotten a bit familiar with the terms plan A and B and he told me he was HOPING for plan B (although then he didn't call it that) and that it would have made it easier for him. No matter what I said about always loving him, had I broken contact and refused to talk to him, he could have more easily put me out of his head and moved on, proceeded with divorce and said, well, she's done. Now, a disclaimer, this was OUR situation, not everyone's. But he's not the first WS to take that view.. If I remember right, Steve advised Jim (NSR) to continue Plan A LONG after his WS was living with OP. He and Jennifer tailor the plans as well and, as professionals, have the insight to do so. You're right in one respect, separation does give you the time to work on yourself that living together during this mess doesn't. And you're never wondering if he's "with her", 'cause, of course, he always is! But marital separation and Plan B are very different. There are people here doing both.<P>No offense taken, Darlin', you know that. And when you were torn, I advised you to do what was best for YOU, remember? Just relayed my experience and told you to follow your own heart. But you haven't read enough of my few little posts out there to make the statement that I was in Plan B. LOL Honey, she came to my HOUSE, my doctor and rattled on in the background when he would call me. Her wee one would run up to Robert and call him "Daddy" when I was on the phone with him (gotta admit, THAT one always got to me, but I got over it). <P>Kat and I both (her longer than me) have dealt with the meeting needs part while the affair is in your face and I'll never say it doesn't bother you. Meeting needs and kissing uhhhhhhh, butt are two completely different things, my friend. Meeting needs is easier and doesn't really require doormattedness (like that word????? ) Meeting needs is subtle and doesn't give the WS the impression that they are royalty, just respected, that we are falling all over ourselves to PROVE we're worthy of their love, just that we value them as individuals and we value ourselves as well. There's a HUGE difference. Many don't get this and I believe that's why it takes such a toll. Besides, a foggy spouse is in selfish mode and can easily take advantage of the royal treatment. It took me quite a while to "get it", but it was sure great once I did. All of a sudden, Plan A was not much effort at all. You went above and beyond the call of duty and I have amazing respect for you for that - you know that, right?<P>Oh, well, shutting up again. Sorry to bop in your thread, tossed, but you can learn this way too. <P>OK, gotta got, flowers need watering. <P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Katb:<BR><B>Good guy, do you ever follow everything exactly as its said and without room for some input of your own?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Never! I'm an engineer; I tend to analyze all inputs before reaching a decision. So it happens that I understand Harley's logic behind both Plan A and Plan B. And in my mind, they are <B>fundamentally</B> different. You can't do a hybrid Plan A/B. You can have variations within each Plan, but you can't combine them. So for instance you can limit how many needs of your WS you choose to meet in Plan A, or you can choose to have limited contact in a Plan B, but you can't give your WS a reality check (the basic goal of Plan B) if you are still there meeting their needs (goal of Plan A).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostva:<BR><B> Robert DID try to Plan B me! I did live with the affair in my face up until he left and I chose to Plan A then, though not as long as you did. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lori, you are right, you chose to Plan A him, but like you said, he Plan B'd you, so I don't know what you call that . Here's the key, for me at least: Plan B is all about giving the WS a reality check, a vision of what life would be like with the OP. In your situation, that is exactly what Robert got: he moved in with the PT, you started working on yourself, he realized PT generates waste byproducts like the rest of us do, and suddenly he realized what he was missing (the new and improved Lori!). Classic Plan B, IMO .<P>Perhaps we are getting too caught up in the terminology. Let's forget "A" and "B". The basic point, and I think they are consistent among almost all therapists, is that you can improve your behavior to make yourself appear more attractive to your mate (Plan A per Harley, 180 per Weiner-Davis), <B>or</B> you can let the WS go and get a reality check (Plan B per Harley, LRT per Weiner-Davis, Tough Love per Dobson).<P>I've done both, and there is no question in my mind that a good Plan A (or whatever you want to call it) is imperative before you go into a Plan B. Kat is right, no one should try to become perfect, but we <B>all</B> can use a tune up as a spouse, and that's what Plan A is all about. If a BS jumps into Plan B after a week of Plan A, the WS will not have a very good image of the BS (or else the affair would have never started up to begin with).<P>Lori, all I'm saying is that you were, in a way, lucky, because Robert chose to move into a situation where the PT was forced to meet all his needs, and she fell on her butt... So many of us here were/are stuck with fence-sitting WS's, where they feel stuck with us, and all they think about is how wonderful life with the OP would be... These are the situations where I believe that a Plan A should be undertaken to "fix" yourself, and then it's time for Plan B.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>You went above and beyond the call of duty and I have amazing respect for you for that - you know that, right?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you Lori, and yes, I do know that, and it does mean a lot to me, coming from you!!<P>AGG<p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited June 07, 2001).]

Goodguy, you are right. Maybe I expressed myself badly before.<BR>( MY brain is not working at 100% right now. I have two concerts at school, my daughter is sick and I this close to miss deadlines on both attendence registers and report cards, so I have a bit of an excuse LOL)<P>I never meant to say that we could use a mix of plan a and b together. I meant that we can use a flexible plan A or a flexible plan B as you say.<BR>I was just trying to point out that even in plan A you don't really have to follow every single thing if you see it's not working in your case.<P>As for the reality check, I can see your point and now it'a a valid one, however, once again you have to know your spouse and see if that will work or not. I can tell you in my case reality check would mean power struggle and I'd rather break then bend on my husband's part. SO I can tell you something the element of surprise worked more than reality check on my case. He actually was never certain of what ( or who) he was going to meet once he got home, because( me of curse, but me how? playful,serious, nice, at home, not at home, understanding... I was actually being myself just more so than usual, it had been a long time I had a chance to be me with all the things happening in our lives before the affair). ANd after a while was so curious to see what that he even forgot a few "dates" with her to come and check.<P>ALso a few times you mention the part of making ourselves look more attractive to our spouse . It might be so but reversed, the improvement is for us, for our self confidence which does go low on an affair. If it benefits the relationship in some way or appears more attractive to spouse its a bonus <P>I have reading some of you posts and I agree with most of it. You seem to be able to think and follow logic. That is quite important , it is sometimes dangerous to let emotions rule in emergency situations. And that's what I treated the affair as.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>P.S> lori start working on that e-mail LOL<BR>Hugs

I always have to giggle when someone here tells me how lucky I was that Robert left me to live with the woman of his dreams! You're not the first, AGG!! I always thought that folks like Kat were the lucky ones!!! <P>Great thread. Are you learning, tossed? Flexibility within the plans seems to be agreed on and a good length of time in a great Plan A before Plan B seems to be another. Hey, I agreed this time!!! <P>See you guys later.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori<P>Hey, Kat, I'm doing it..if I'd get off this thread. With two proms, a dance recital, final exams and a horny boyfriend (all for my daughter), I've just had my hands full!

Belld---are you back together with H? Is the substance abuse something he is working on? It seems my H is waiting for someone to rescue him and take a stand cause he can't. He resists the right things for him but seems to be so incapable of taking action----any action to improve his life. I have been leaving the decision up to my husband as to whether he wants to be married or not but sometimes it feels like he is pushing me and dragging his feet so that I make THE decision. I think this is the addict/codependency magnet at work. I have been posting with Bramble Rose who is an experienced WS/addict survivor. I first need to find out if my h is an alcoholic cause his patterns are not real overt.<P>Lostva---I think I am learning. Somethings are penetrating but I have a lot of sorting to do cause some applies and some doesn't. I woke up this morning wondering about the comittment level of my H and if he is capable of committment in marriage cause of the alcohol abuse. I keep running into the roadblock that nothing will work until he addresses his issues with alcohol and his issues with alcohol are not painful for him and don't seem to a problem that he see any need to address. I feel I am getting direction-----I can feel some rays of light shining through and all the POSTS are so helpful in sorting out feelings and perceptions. This site is a Godsend. I asked my counselor if there were any support groups for infidelity sufferers and she sadly said that there is so much acceptance of affairs today that working things out is not where people are at so this is a valuable tool. A place to come to understand yourself. I have come to understand more about Plan A with ALL your help I have to just figure out if Plan A is what I need to do in light of what Belld and Bramble Rose are saying. <P>Thank you all for being there and listening and advising. It helps so much to have this site and it is one thing that is helping to keep me sane.

tw,<P>Yes, H and I are back together. It was a tragic story, but his substance abuse, coupled with his relationship with the XOW, was largely part and parcel of what led him to be arrested and sent to jail. He was ordered to go to substance abuse counseling and anger management for a very long time. During this time, he was out of the house and I was in Plan B mode. I think that those of us with spouses who have substance abuse issues are in a different boat than those with spouses who don't. When there is substance abuse involved, tough love is the only way to go. I actually spoke to Steve Harley, and he told me to go directly to Plan B in my case. The counselor I was seeing at the time told me the same thing as well.<P>He occasionally "lapses," but he's getting a lot more conscientious about his behavior. It helps that he's employed now and has responsibility. Going to jail was a big wake-up call.<P>belld

Belld--Everything I read and the counsel I am getting is that when substance abuse is involved that tough love is the only way to go cause of the manipulative patterns of the addict. For example, my h came home Tues morning at 2 a.m. and said he was with OW cause I wanted to know the truth so that is why he told me he was with her....he did not want to talk then but we would talk Tues night after work. Tues night came and we talked...not about his "visit" with her but that he was gonna call my counselor and spend the night looking at Harley info on ending an affair. Well he never did any of that and I do think he just diverted my pressing him with his "visit"....now he is missing in action tonight and I have no idea when he will be home. Does Plan A suggest that you just ignore this behavior????<P>Anyone out there-----what do you do when WS starts to blantantly see the OW....I told him the truth hurts less which it does cause you know what you are up against but I meant that if I know the truth than we will progress to Plan B, in my book. I guess I need to clarify that. This is so sick----why do we BS's need to put up with an affair? I don't hear alot on the posts that show that putting up with betrayal is healthy for anyone and I seem to see alot of BS go to Plan B.