(I posted this in my need reassurance post, then thought I might as well start a new thread).<P>I hate counseling. I hate counseling. I hate counseling.<P>We started off by saying we're in same place. I want to work on marriage he wants to leave.<P>I started off and talked about changes I had made in myself (weight, adult voice, anger/control) and why. <P>Therapist asked if he still wanted to leave and he said yes.<BR>But then he talked about my plan b letter. He still made it seem as if I was telling him to leave. I made it clear that was not the case. I just was no longer desiring to be his excuse as to why 'he wasn't getting stuff done.' Nor did his children deserve to be the excuse. So then he launched into how we were 'distractions' for this big project he wants to do this summer. <P>Therapist redirected us to marriage. Told him that his leaving wasn't about 'a project.' That it had to do with marriage. We talked about control and voice and how he felt he didn't have a voice in marriage. We tried an exercise where he sat forward and I slouched (opposite of how we normally sit). I explained how I had been deliberately staying out of his 'decision-making' way. He told how he liked it.<P>Then, she brought up leaving again. I asked what was preventing him from leaving. He said me...my talk of finances and kids and family. He was especially upset about visitation of kids. His ideal is that kids are with me and he comes here to visit...he picks them up, he puts them to bed, he eats dinnner....waltzes in whenever he wants to. I said "why, if you leave, do you get to waltz into my life whenever you want to?" Why do I get left with the day-to-day details of kids and childrearing....Why does he want to just abdicate the role? Why can't he see that he will NOT be taking care of HIS responsibilities? <P>I DON'T WANT TO BE CHIEF, COOK AND BOTTLE WASHER. I DON'T WANT TO BE A SINGLE PARENT. I DON'T WANT TO BE BY MYSELF.<BR>BUT MOST OF ALL, I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO PUT MY LOVE FOR HIM IN A BOX AND JUST BE HIS FRIEND. That's what he said, we should just be friends. <P>I gotta go. I'm crying and I have to stop before he comes home.<P><<<<<I had to add this. As I was crying, my 2 yr old (just 2 in April), brought me paper towels and tried to wipe my eyes and was patting me on the back....just when you think there are only dark clouds on the horizon, God sends one with a silver lining)>>>><P>Cali<p>[This message has been edited by StrongerInCali (edited June 12, 2001).]

Cali,<P>The stuff he wants is pure fantasyland stuff. Eventually he'll realize that his ideal is not possible. Waiting for that to happen is painful, I know. It will have to be either leave or stay and work on the marriage. The limboland will not last forever.<P>And the concept of just being friends is another fantasyland statement. Of course they want that....it eases the guilt they feel.<P>Stay the course and Plan A in the short term. Hopefully something else will come out of counselling. Must be hard to sit there and hear all this stuff. Does the counsellor know everything (OW etc.)? It just seems to me that if it were Steve doing the counselling, it would be more focused on things, and Steve would handle it knowing that he is in fantasy world.<P>Sorry I can't be of more help, but I'm thinking about you.<P>

{{{{{{{{{hug}}}}}}}}}}<P>Sounds like the session was just more of him doing/saying exactly what he's been doing/saying.<P>I agree that his idea of life after leaving stinks.. for you. For him it's an easy life.<P>Has he ever explained why he thinks life should be like he wants? Why he thinks you should shoulder all of life's responsbilities and get nothing back? I'm sorry, I'm not being very much help here. It's just that I don't get people who think that they are above all it all. <P>I do not recall.. do you have a job outside of the house?<P>Wish I could do more the rant here with you.<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

<BR><B><BR>Has he ever explained why he thinks life should be like he wants? Why he thinks you should shoulder all of life's responsbilities and get nothing back? </B><P>It goes somewhere along the line of "oops,I made a mistake. I just went along with your idea that we'd make a good team and married you. I never really loved you like that." and, "Oops, I let you convince me to have children. Never wanted them either." (I didn't want what I have now.) Also said in counseling, "I never really participated in the marriage, anyway." (so I may as well leave.)<P><B>I do not recall.. do you have a job outside of the house? </B><P>More than a job...I have a career as a professional educator. Some would say teacher, but I also have duties as a mentor teacher and I present and consult in my school district.<P><BR>Thanks Z. I need to rant here, so I won't rant at him.<P>

I think you should try Steve H. or someone who is like him...a coach and not a "therapist". I'm having the same problem with our therapist. The MAIN question I have is do you have a PLAN from your therapist? Our therapist has been treating the symptioms (communication) rather than the problem (Love Busters). I told may wife 9 months ago that we never had a plan from our therapist and she disagreed with me. Then last week our therapist finally admitted that she could only "facilitate" a plan a could not provide one. Unless you have an actual PLAN for where you want to go I think there is much less chance of getting there. <P>PLAN is objectives...strategy...tactics...determine results...refine<P>NO PLAN may just be tactics alone which is like a ship without a rudder.<P>I expressed my discontent about our therapist to my wife again this week and am trying to get her to talk to Steve H. again. Her concern is cost. But what is more expensive, a good coach or divorce? (Money and emotional/mental trauma).<P>Ask your therapist directly...Where's the PLAN? Don't accept anything less than a real PLAN.<P>------------------<BR>

I actually have an appt. with Steve on Thursday A.M. I haven't told H yet. He hasn't read MB stuff and I don't think he'd be receptive.<P>I don't care about cost. I'd pay anything to be able to work on marriage. The human cost is going to be greater than any monetary cost if we eventually separate or divorce.<P>Cali

Cali, you and I are twins in another life - I just know it. <P>It's funny, your H talks about doing all that stuff, my H is living it. No responsibility, thought he could just waltz in and see the kids whenever, that it would all blow over and we would be friends. <P>I know I am truly ruining his fantasyland now that he's gone. It makes me happy in a way . My H really needs a reality check.<P>But, back to you. It's awesome your H is being so open about this. I'm hoping the C can somehow make it sink in to your H and burst his bubble.

Cali,<BR> The counselor will not be able to make him "see" anything. It's exactly the same thing as you trying to educate him while he's still in fantasyland. He will not be in the mode to be educated until the bubble bursts.If left to his own devises, that could last for only God knows how long!<P> To the "let's be friends" statement......I heard the same thing,like many,many here have. I told my H, "I don't have friends who lie, cheat and betray me and if I find out I do have a 'so called' friend who engages in that behavior then I get rid of them, they are not friends worth having." With friends like that, who needs enemies!? There is no arguing with that.This, from someone who promised to be more than your friend.<P> Cali, you don't realize the power you have to change your situation. You do not have to wait for him to make up is mind and stay in limboland until he gets darned good and ready to decide he wants to be married,unless, of course, that is what you want to do. You can decide that you can't live with him flying an affair in your face, it's simply too painful. It is the epitome of emotional abuse to taunt a spouse with ....."I will stay, I will go", in words or actions, fog or no fog. <BR> There is a downside to having him home carrying on this way. You are an emotional wreck, your kids are seeing this, he's not learning anything, he gets to carry on as he pleases and has no timeline that leads the situation to a resolution one way or the other. You can change all that. You can let him linger indefinitely or you can tell him you've had enough and you won't settle for being second. It's really all up to you. He won't see what it's like to be without you until he is without you. For me it was better to be separated by my own choice and have H go off by himself and learn what it was like without me and the kids, and to have him "feel" exactly what divorce would be like than to have him live at home with me in anguish and end up deciding to go sometime down the road. He had a hard life lesson to learn and wasn't moving towards learning it himself and I couldn't emotionally handle waiting for him to decide if and when he was going to take the course.I felt that with my H, there would always be a risk of this kind of situation happening again (he's that creative type, wanted to be in a band, had "things" he felt he had to do, got married too young, yada, yada, yada)if he didn't experience first hand what he was about to lose. He says now, that being away from us was the most painful experience of his life. <BR> I am one who advocates for short plan A's. Unless you have been some hideous spouse, and have an inordinate amount of changing to do, then you can demonstrate your ability and willingness to change in a short amount of time. Most of the time, WS in the fog doesn't see the changes anyway, or if they do, they minimize them because the affair has so much more excitement and appeal. You have a big bonus on your side,he sees your changes and likes them, however it isn't enough to persuade him to make up his mind, and that is because this is not about you, it is about something deep down in his soul that he has to solve and maybe he does need time away and could sort it out quicker if he had some time away. That is what worked for my H.<BR> I simply refused to compete with the fantasy world. I couldn't compete, I had three kids I had to parent and I was so emotionally looped of his announcement that I couldn't live in limboland for very long without feeling I was going to lose it and LB all over the place,build up more resentment, lose more self esteem.<BR> Bottom line,by refusing to be a part of the mess and removing myself from it all, he was forced to decide. I did give an ultimatum, "make up your mind soon or I am going on with my life,I will not be hurt like this" It wasn't that he was choosing OW or me. He had already said goodbye to her but he still couldn't decide about the staying married part. Their lingering behavior shows you exactly where their heart really is. It's at home with you and the kids or he wouldn't still be there. However, he is torturing you by being undecided. What if you decide you don't want to be tortured and refuse to be a part of his undecisiveness?! If he's actually got something to lose then he will be swayed to decide one way or the other.You can already see he doesn't want to lose his family,he just doesn't have any powerful motivators to make him choose at the moment. That is something you have the power to change.<BR> So, lastly, I have seen in your posts that you are a believer in the Lord. Put this in His hands daily, hourly, minute by minute if you have to. Listen carefully for Him to speak to you. He guided my every step and gave me the courage to do what I did, lovingly,but firmly. He will guide you too,if you let Him. In that, you will not go wrong. I'd like to guide you to a post on the recovery board called " Two years of plan A and he still won't agree to no contact", something like that. There are some other posters their who share my view on short term plan A and have had success with the "tough love" appraoch when the WS refuses to get off the fence. Prayers for you and your family and all the best to you! <BR>

<B><BR> The counselor will not be able to make him "see" anything. It's exactly the same thing as you trying to educate him while he's still in fantasyland. He will not be in the mode to be educated until the bubble bursts.If left to his own devises, that could last for only God knows how long!</B> <P><I> I have the beginning of the next school year as my 'end of my rope' date....he will be less able to see her and I will be more able to demonstrate changes...'we' actually have a lot planned for summer. </I><P> <B> With friends like that, who needs enemies!? There is no arguing with that.This, from someone who promised to be more than your friend.</B> <P><I> I really have no argument here, that's how I feel too. But I guess, I hope against hope that it is just his way of not being able to really 'let' go of me. That deep down he recognizes he still wants me in his life. </I><P> <B> Cali, you don't realize the power you have to change your situation. You do not have to wait for him to make up is mind and stay in limboland until he gets darned good and ready to decide he wants to be married,unless, of course, that is what you want to do. You can decide that you can't live with him flying an affair in your face, it's simply too painful. It is the epitome of emotional abuse to taunt a spouse with ....."I will stay, I will go", in words or actions, fog or no fog. </B><P><I> There is just too much fear right now. Fear that he will see me as the villain who made him leave his kids. He has not taken ownership of decisions in the past. Looks to me for approval...part of what came out in counseling today...at this point I feel HE has to make the decision to leave </I><P><B> He won't see what it's like to be without you until he is without you. For me it was better to be separated by my own choice and have H go off by himself and learn what it was like without me and the kids, and to have him "feel" exactly what divorce would be like than to have him live at home with me in anguish and end up deciding to go sometime down the road.....I felt that with my H, there would always be a risk of this kind of situation happening again (he's that creative type, wanted to be in a band, had "things" he felt he had to do, got married too young, yada, yada, yada)if he didn't experience first hand what he was about to lose. </B><P><I> That is sure what I am facing. If I hear one more time how many 'gifts' I have and how I have been able to feel successful and how he is nothing...he hasn't done anything...how he should never had married...I WILL SCREAM!!! </I><P> <B> I am one who advocates for short plan A's. </B><P><I> How short? # of months? I'm about 4 wks into a 'real' plan A. </I><P> <B> So, lastly, I have seen in your posts that you are a believer in the Lord. Put this in His hands daily, hourly, minute by minute if you have to. Listen carefully for Him to speak to you. </B><P><I> I am and do. It is the only thing that is getting me through this (well, Him and these boards) </I><P><B> I'd like to guide you to a post on the recovery board called " Two years of plan A and he still won't agree to no contact", something like that. </B><P><I> Yes, I read that one. 2 wks ago I couldn't imagine doing this for one month. Now I can't fathom how I am going to last the summer...I am just taking it one day at a time. I have an appt. to call Steve on Thursday...I guess I'll go from there. </I><P>mthrr, you have posted to me before and I really appreciate your words and thoughts. <P>Thank you.<P>Cali<P>

Again for what it is worth, quit trying to fix him, he already knows this stuff. Everytime anyone argues with him about leaveing he will feel threatened, it is his safe place, you must understand that. I hate it when anyone including jennifer harley (who I have argued with for 3 appointments now) suggests reasons I should not leave. Intellectually I understand, but emotionally I rebel, the better the argument the more I rebel. I cannot emphasise too much cali, you are not in an intellectual battle, you are in an emotional one, and the rules are completely different. All these "reasons" feel like manipulation, we (ws like your husband and I perhaps) care nothing about reasons, we are trying to survive, and we feel our marriages are killing us psychologically. Some call that fog, but I felt this way before becoming attached to another, so did your husband. It is real it is not a fog, IMO the strategy is to act such that your husband feels safe first, and secondly to act such that you are as irresistable as possible. This is completely contrary to how you feel, or want to act, and that is part of the importance, you must gain his trust that you will never manipulate him again, and that is part of how you do it. <P>My w also has a difficult time with this, it is natural for the BS to think the ws is the one who needs to become trustworthy, and many times that is true, but not always, sometimes it is the BS who needs to be trusted. There are those here who will chastise me for saying that, call it fog, but that may be how your husband feels also. So fog or not, it is in your best interests to consider this, and act on it as you will. Personally I think it is justified, my w never took care of me emotionally (an admission she readily makes), she just thinks acknowledgeing it now, and saying trust me is all it takes....she is sooooooo wrong. I need to see a long sustained effort of fudamental change in her choices of emotional interaction with me, before I will even consider whether I actually want to continue to be married for any other reasons (the recovery of passionate love the harley's say is posssible). <P>It is important I would say, to keep you husband in the home, but not you as a doormat, he will probably think anything reasonable is fair (like his being civil, pulling his weight with basic duties... like working and stuff). But as much as you can, let him do what he wants. The kids are a tricky issue, you should not allow him to abdicate all of the childrearing duties. But I would suggest being as flexible as possible, and not aruge his "duties", but simply tell him you cannot possibly do all the work, and the kids will suffer, and you appreciate his help. Ask him for ideas on how he thinks he can help. You have to empower him cali as much as humanly possible. Let him make any decisions no matter how small that aren't um........ completely crazy or dangerous, by complying he will begin to trust you. <P>I am assuming you really do love him, and that he still can love you...at some point whether he will choose to love you will have to be answered, and he will, in his own time. How long you wait, that is your choice. But if you (and C) keep showing him the errors of his ways he will leave, and may or may not come back. Make home as attractive as possible, and make it clear you want him there on his terms, not just yours (and make sure yours are minimal), don't even talk about leaveing. Whenever it comes up, say you don't want him to leave but will respect whatever he decides and is there anything you can do (when that happens)to make it easier to stay. As for the MB books, just leave em about to be read, tell him the books are not about fixing him, they are about fixing you. That the process is very supportive in dealing with the more powerful member of a marriage (you by far, but don't say powerful) cause it protects both parties emotionally, if possible get him to read the love busters first. <P>Your husband is probably holding on to the emotional distance he has achieved like a drowning man to a lifering, you are asking him to take your hand and get in the lifeboat because it is a better idea, he sees that but is afraid you will just let him go (unless he does as you say) when he gives up the lifering (hence all the stuff about never loving, being friends, etc. etc.)...... let him float about with the ring (feeling safe and in control of his destiny), and just make life in the boat look really good. He may float away, he may not (the consequences of the choices you both made in the past), he might like the better food and water in the boat...but it must be his choice.<P>As for the friends statement and the predictable BS responses when that happens....shoot yourself in the foot if you want, take the moral high ground if it makes you feel superior. But if folks insist on demonizing the ws instead of analyzing the oft times complicated reasons for the A, and the marital dynamics that contriuted to it, then you may very well validate some of the reasons that ws wandered. Sometimes the ws is only so cause they did not divorce you first, I have no respect for those who want both a spouse and another, but I do understand those who feel the marriage is over and leave in that manner. It may be wrong in a societal sense (breaking rules), but makes good psychological sense. One may choose to look down their noses at us, and say we are not worthy of being your friend, but if so we then wonder why would you want to be our spouse? So you see cali, when one says I won't be your friend, but I will be your spouse it can feel like major manipulation. The better response to our saying (and I have said it a few times myself), that I would still care about you and be your special friend (as only an ex-spouse can be)....is that you appreciate this, and are happy not to be disliked, you are not sure you could handle acting like a friend, that the emotions would be tough, but that for now you prefer to be married friends and want to focus on that, being his best friend if possible. For the record my wife responds predictably, I will never be friends with you, you go and we are done.....just makes me look for the door *sigh*.

<<"Looks to me for approval">><P>Cali, he looks to you for approval on leaving maybe, but on continuing the affair, are you giving him approval there too? I kinda doubt it, but maybe he sees your not standing up for yourself as approval of what he is doing somehow? That's just messed up. And sad-n-lonely, I'm sorry, call me bitter or whatever you want, but if you were my H I'd show you the door, you wouldn't need to look.<P>I don't know what to tell you Cali, but I think that if you feel you can continue like this then that is a very strong choice, be proud. But, watch your self esteem and keep looking at yourself in the mirror to see what all this is doing to you. If it gets to the point where you are losing yourself there has to come a time when you say, enough, I'm not going to kill myself so you can have your cake and eat it too, make up your mind or get out, you know? Hang in there, and watch that mirror! Happy Birthday (((Cali}}} <P><BR>

<P>Having another round of that B'day wine- I don't know about you but I need it after reading sad's post. Think I better go get a case of it actually, and it's only 10:30 am here. <P>Let's let this slide for today, since it's your birthday, what do you say? As Scarlet O'Hara would say "I'll think about that tomorrow". In fact, let's pop in Gone With The Wind, (my favorite movie, what's yours?) and make some pop corn, that'll get your mind off this. <P>

NY:<BR>"I can't think about this today. I'll think about this tomorrow." or something like that. I think is often misqoted as "Tomorrow is another day." <P>I will have a drink or two later. Think I'll invite some coworkers out after school. <P>H is taking me to House of Blues for dinner.<P>sad_n_lonely--<BR>what I wrote in my post about how I feel, I did not say. except part about putting my feelings in a box and being his friend. When he said he still wanted to be friends with OW, I said "I understand that." Think C was going to fall off her chair. I made it very clear that I did not want him to leave. He had to decide. I said I could not be his excuse. I will not make decision for him...<P>I took time to be by myself and vent here. I dried my tears (with baby son's help) and ordered KFC for dinner. He went to graduation ceremony, came home and I said not a word. I went up to bed and cried myself to sleep (under covers so he wouldn't hear.) <P>I don't know when, but he came to bed and as has been his 'habit' of late, he reached for me in the morning. I don't know how long I will be able to handle the intimacy part. SEX if you will. I have never been with anyone else. He has been everything to me.<P>You talk of being safe and protected. Who protects me? Who protects your wife? That is what I get from reading the Harley's stuff. It is both spouses' jobs to protect each other. <P>He can talk of leaving in one breath, then in next tell his friends that 'we're' buying a house. He can say he doesn't like being around me, yet call me several times when he is out. He can say I don't want to be with you that way, then be all over me in the morning. <P>sad_n_lonely you and my H need to dig deep within yourselves. (Yes me trying to fix things...telling YOU what to do. Cause I can do it here if I want to... . You want 'us' to be irresistable to you. How about you being irresistable to 'us.' That's what His Needs, Her Needs is all about. It is NOT about YOU. It is NOT about HER. It is about YOU TWO. Not the same old 'crap.' New patterns, new dynamics, growing and learning together using new tools abandoning the old habits. BOTH PEOPLE. <P>It took two people to get married. It takes two people to stay married. No matter what is said, how history is revised, I doubt shotguns were involved or arms were twisted.<P>And, as [H] has said in another post, "it's a mistake to continue a mistake." I believe that two wrongs don't make a right. You want us to see you with new eyes...and you should see us with new eyes as well.<P>What you think is true. Whether you can or can't...it is your decision. <P>Okay, I feel better...off my soapbox. Sure appreciate you standing in .<P>Cali<P><p>[This message has been edited by StrongerInCali (edited June 13, 2001).]

Cali:<P>Actually Scarlette says:<P>"I can't think about that right now. If I do, I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tommorrow. After all ... tomorrow is another day." <P>I've read some of your posts but haven't responded much but let me say this:<P>I don't think it's counseling you hate but the results that you hate...that is hearing what you don't want to hear. For us BSs, we are so focused on what we are doing and expect that will change our WSs, but really that change has to come from them.<P>I am learning...nearly three months from d-day...that I can't change her, I can't make her love me and I for sure can't make her want to be with me if that's not what she wants. She has to find that's the best thing for HER. In my caseI hope she does, 'cause I know it's the best thing for me. <P><BR>S&L said it best (although i don't agree with his entire post) but we are trying to intellectually reason with someone who is only seeing things emotionally. That's hard for us to fathom but it seems our best "reasons" fall on deaf ears and it frutrstaes the hell out of us.<P>I am learning to TRY to be patient, to not push too hard and to do stuff for myself. <P>It's hard to do and I don't know if it will help but all the other stuff didn't work well so what the heck.<P>Anyway---breathe---treat yourself on your b-day to some time worrying about Cali...It's hard but I'll bet you are worth it. We all are.<P>Good luck <P><P>------------------<BR>Lord give me patience, and give it to me NOW!

Fair enuf cali, guess you can stand in for w for a moment. First, btw on the sex part, this is a confusing place, all sorts of outcomes seem to happen for the same circumstances. Some seem to be able to seperate sex from love, and sort of meet each other's sf need despite serious marital difficulties. Personally I can't, I have to be seriously emotionally connected to do so, consequently have not been intimate much with wife for years (as the estrangement developed until we stopped alltogether, neither of us said a word as this happened, nor did she ever protest my increasingly diminishing inititation until D and then she protested quite a bit, I have been sleeping in another bedroom for 5 years, an arrangement she agreed with). As for your husband, I have no insight there, he could be using you (in an emotional sense), thinks maybe he is being nice to you for your sake, maybe hates himself for being weak to physical needs, I havn't any idea, but might be worthwhile to ask him. Interestingly many seem to think a physical relationship is useful during marital difficulties cause it is a connection....I suppose it is (and was my rationale as we came apart), but it leaves me feeling used, and that is unfair to my w as well as me. When I told her my feelings she was distressed (and argued some) but essentially does not want me too if my heart is not in it. IMO for those of us who need to be emotionally/psychologically connected (sounds like maybe you too) to have a sexual relationship (for me was never about the sex anyways, was the intimacy I need), I think it is ok, and healthy to stop, tell our spouses why, and accept whatever consequences ensue, I don't believe in empty sex, might as well be a prostitute. All the justification about setting aside "issues" and just meeting a physical need is a bunch of malarkey IMO. So far the counseling with harley agrees, they do not promote meeting that need unless you want to, you don't just do it.<P>cali...You talk of being safe and protected. Who protects me? Who protects your wife? That is what I get from reading the Harley's stuff. It is both spouses' jobs to protect each other.<P>snl...Ideally both do basic protections, I was more speaking to your husbands possible state of mind and so forth. The basic protection is to not be abusive to each other and do no LB, which means you should try to refrain from "fixing" him as we have talked. But he should be asked not to say mean things to you and such too. Most of the difficulty with my w has arisen out of "relationship" talks, and her being unhappy (hey, we ws are usually pretty unhappy too, but somehow ours does not count....well it does, but usually takes a firm hand of the harleys to make that stick with the bs). But you cannot be protected from your feelings, or expect encouragement, hope, etc. that is the consequence you (and H) reap from your marital habits. As for me, I talk too much with w about what is marriage, and why should people be married just cause they made a mistake in marital choice years ago, and why do you love me (I still don't understand that one). I really do mean this as a philosophic discussion, I need to understand so I can figure out my feelings, but as you can imagine this is very hard for my w to hear, much less discuss rationally, so to protect her I must be considerate about this stuff...hard to do, cause answers are vital to my choices.<P>cali...He can talk of leaving in one breath, then in next tell his friends that 'we're' buying a house. He can say he doesn't like being around me, yet call me several times when he is out. He can say I don't want to be with you that way, then be all over me in the morning. <P>snl....This is not me, we are apart all the way down the line, and it is consistent. Only thing that comes to mind is just look at him as neutral (ignore it), and unless he does something that requires action (like actually buying a house) just do your stuff and look for behavioural changes in you, H, and marriage before deciding anything is different.<P>cali...sad_n_lonely you and my H need to dig deep within yourselves. (Yes me trying to fix things...telling YOU what to do. Cause I can do it here if I want to... . You want 'us' to be irresistable to you. How about you being irresistable to 'us.' That's what His Needs, Her Needs is all about. It is NOT about YOU. It is NOT about HER. It is about YOU TWO. Not the same old 'crap.' <P>snl...Here is where it gets painful, usually in any marital disharmony, one member has decided to leave (for whatever reason, right or wrong) and the other says NO, (for whatever reason, including the so human not wanting to lose). Therefore the one wanting to stay has to work harder, just some kind of universal law I guess. When BOTH parties decide they want the marriage to continue then HNHN etc must come into play, or will not work. But that is what is addressed first, if the one leaveing will stay, (out of sense of fairplay, or whatever), and you can gain LB cooperation, the harleys suggest motivation to try harder may arise, and oft times they are right. However, if one truly understands themself, and wants to go, nothing will make any difference, and that will be partly evidenced by their unwillingness to meet the other persons needs. Some will call that failure (those who think makes no difference who you are married too, love is only a decision to do stuff like the harley's say.....but they are wrong, love is also about fitting someone rightly too). The reason I said irresistable, is that your husband thinks he does not fit you (or you fit him), if that is true (his thinking) then telling him he is wrong is useless (and proves he is right in the first place), but changing significantly does sort of make one a "new" person, and maybe he will think that one fits. You may very well decide the same re him, this is the bs fog that I wonder about so much here. I see bs claiming undying love for husbands that are clearly not worth their effort, and they put up with it for years, I have no idea why. Guess it goes back to what is love, and this whole notion it is a decision. I suspect many of these people if they have grown through this process, and don't hang on past a reasonable timeframe, will in fact find much better mates for them and their kids. They deny themselves this change in an unreasonable pursuit of an ideal that does not work. If (as the harley's say) love is a decision, then why not decide to unlove your spouse and find another, do the stuff with them, and you will have the loving relationship folks need, with someone who is not addictive, abusive, withdrawn, self-centered, or a dozen other personality disorders. Anyways I digress into marital philosophy.<P>cali...New patterns, new dynamics, growing and learning together using new tools abandoning the old habits. BOTH PEOPLE. It took two people to get married. It takes two people to stay married. No matter what is said, how history is revised, I doubt shotguns were involved or arms were twisted.<P>snl...Yep, if one can find the motivation. Telling one they should be motivated makes no sense to me at all. Personally I don't think marriage should be work, it should be fun and rewarding, and it is when people fit right (even then the "work" is not work, it is relationship building and is fun). The work people refer to IMO is trying to make a marriage out of two people who do not fit each other. But all this is semantics, you are right, it does take two, which is why I don't believe in sacrificial marriage. If both do not passionately love their spouse, then the marriage should end (except with kids, more tolerance is in order, if one can reach an accomodation that is psychologically healthy for kids). One of the things that has fascinated me throughout this, and had really never thought about (though I would say I had sort of agreed), is this almost fanatic notion that marriage must be saved at all cost. It seems much more mentally healthy to me that marriage be about two people choosing to live together in a completely voluntart intimate relationship, and that if one no longer feels they want that it end. This notion of owing someone your life, just cause you hoped for that at one time flies in the face of human psychology. I for one, cannot imagine wanting someone to stay with me a second longer than they so desire.<P>cali...And, as [H] has said in another post, "it's a mistake to continue a mistake." I believe that two wrongs don't make a right. You want us to see you with new eyes...and you should see us with new eyes as well.<P>snl...Maybe he does, and does not want to continue, that is probably the hardest truth to bear cali. Rejection is the most hurtful thing humans can experiece. But being messy humans the bigger the stakes the more effort should be expended to validate one wants to leave (or stay) a marriage. Let me ask you a question, you are a bright articulate person, and have (I would imagine) given all this stuff a bit of philosophical thought. Given the randomness of mating, our poor training in mate selection, and the few people you probably tried out, do you think your husband is the man who fit you best, would make you the happiest, you could make him the happiest? In other words if fitting doesn't count, he could be anybody, or if it does count does he fit you best? Or, is a lot of the motivation to fix a marriage about conserving the resources you have vested in this one (and the kids). If your husband never changes, stays but never changes, would you pick him again (factor out the kids etc, just talking about you and he). It amazes me how often (here) people essentially say they had no idea what kind of person they were married too. And blame their difficulties on fog, insanity, etc. This is foolish of course, we all do what we do because of who we are, marital disharmony (Affairs or otherwise) is not a disease, it is the inevitable outcome of the psychologies of the individuals in that coupling. Some of the disharmony arises solely cause of a poor fit, as well as the individual issues, a sort of negative synergy, instead of the positive synergy a marriage should be. And of course many people should never marry, they do so because of procreation drives, and marriage is generally required in our culture to do so and be thought well of. Unfortuneately this is a shock to the people they marry (when the mask starts slipping) who carry their half of a rewarding relationship. Anyways, you may not be up to such questions understandable. Unfortuneately (or not), the answers (for my marriage) are absolutely vital. I need to know why my wife loves me (if she does, I don't think so, I think she needs me...that is enuf for many, does not work for me, I don't why, just who I am). I need to know why I don't love her (the passionate love, not the caring kind), and whether that makes no difference (as many say), I just have a duty to do so cause of vows etc. I need to know why she (if true and that is not clear) would accept me staying if is only about caring and duty, and not passion. These things are important to who I am, my wife says one of the reasons she married me is cause I am like that (analytical), but throughout our marriage has regularly rejected me any time I become analytical....what does that say about me? It says I am ok as long as I give her what she needs (understandable), but she does not really care much about who I am. So what happens when another values that in you, hears you, needs it too?....and so forth and so on.<BR>

<BR><B>Most of the difficulty with my w has arisen out of "relationship" talks, and her being unhappy (hey, we ws are usually pretty unhappy too, but somehow ours does not count....well it does, but usually takes a firm hand of the harleys to make that stick with the bs). [B]<P><I> I am getting this part. I am beginning to understand that "I" cannot "fix" him. I am understanding that his feelings are 'real' to him and they should be validated. </I><P>[B] Some will call that failure (those who think makes no difference who you are married too, love is only a decision to do stuff like the harley's say.....but they are wrong, love is also about fitting someone rightly too). The reason I said irresistable, is that your husband thinks he does not fit you (or you fit him), if that is true (his thinking) then telling him he is wrong is useless (and proves he is right in the first place), but changing significantly does sort of make one a "new" person, and maybe he will think that one fits. </B><P><I> No matter what he says, he thought I fit him once. He even used that terminology. "I picked you because we fit." Although he doesn't remember that now. </I><P><B> You may very well decide the same re him, this is the bs fog that I wonder about so much here. I see bs claiming undying love for husbands that are clearly not worth their effort, and they put up with it for years, I have no idea why. Guess it goes back to what is love, and this whole notion it is a decision. I suspect many of these people if they have grown through this process, and don't hang on past a reasonable timeframe, will in fact find much better mates for them and their kids. They deny themselves this change in an unreasonable pursuit of an ideal that does not work. If (as the harley's say) love is a decision, then why not decide to unlove your spouse and find another, do the stuff with them, and you will have the loving relationship folks need, with someone who is not addictive, abusive, withdrawn, self-centered, or a dozen other personality disorders. Anyways I digress into marital philosophy. </B><P><I> You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing the imperfect person perfectly.”--Sam Keen. In a previous post you differentiated between love of mothers, sisters, etc. and husbands and wives. When I married I took my vows serious...better, worse, perfect, imperfect...till death. In my head he transformed from significant other to FAMILY. He is my family. My heart was transformed. The very things that 'bug' me about him are what I fell in love with. His creativity, his gentleness, his smile...his snoring, everything....He is my heart, my lover, my husband...my heart still beats faster when his truck pulls in the driveway. Just touching him still sends shivers up my spine...</I><P><B> Personally I don't think marriage should be work, it should be fun and rewarding, and it is when people fit right (even then the "work" is not work, it is relationship building and is fun). The work people refer to IMO is trying to make a marriage out of two people who do not fit each other. But all this is semantics, you are right, it does take two, which is why I don't believe in sacrificial marriage. If both do not passionately love their spouse, then the marriage should end (except with kids, more tolerance is in order, if one can reach an accomodation that is psychologically healthy for kids). </B><P><I> Your right that two people should 'fit.' But if you lack the proper tools for the 'work.' Even work that should be fun, becomes difficult. You start out all idealistic and you are meeting each others needs and it is fun. My H and I had a great first 4-6 yrs. But he lacks the ability to make decisions, to tell people what he's really thinking...he gives in...I make decisions, I control...If we had known then, what I am learning now we could have reversed this 'pattern.' We would have been better partners. Our marriage would have stayed fun and we would still 'fit.' Which I think we still do, because we still have a lot of fun when we are together. It is only when he starts thinking of her and that he shouldn't be feeling this way with me, that he starts to get angry and push me away...I can almost 'see' this happening... </I><P><B> One of the things that has fascinated me throughout this, and had really never thought about (though I would say I had sort of agreed), is this almost fanatic notion that marriage must be saved at all cost. It seems much more mentally healthy to me that marriage be about two people choosing to live together in a completely voluntart intimate relationship, and that if one no longer feels they want that it end. This notion of owing someone your life, just cause you hoped for that at one time flies in the face of human psychology. I for one, cannot imagine wanting someone to stay with me a second longer than they so desire. </B><P><I> Then why do so many people regret divorcing? Why do they realize that they are no better off? Starting over with someone new does NOT change your patterns. More often than not, you choose someone very like you current spouse. But because you are meeting each others needs and are still in the ideal phase of the relationship...you don't see it. You don't OWE someone your life. You OWE it to yourself to look at where and when you changed...you did once voluntarily choose someone...WHY? And don't give me your revisionist historical perspective...my H has tried that...and I can take out cards and letters he wrote me that dispute what he says. It is the same stuff he now writes her....She writes him the same stuff I wrote him. I think its more about selfishness and a desire for 'romance' all the time. </I><P><B> Let me ask you a question, you are a bright articulate person, and have (I would imagine) given all this stuff a bit of philosophical thought. Given the randomness of mating, our poor training in mate selection, and the few people you probably tried out, do you think your husband is the man who fit you best, would make you the happiest, you could make him the happiest? In other words if fitting doesn't count, he could be anybody, or if it does count does he fit you best? Or, is a lot of the motivation to fix a marriage about conserving the resources you have vested in this one (and the kids). If your husband never changes, stays but never changes, would you pick him again (factor out the kids etc, just talking about you and he). It amazes me how often (here) people essentially say they had no idea what kind of person they were married too. And blame their difficulties on fog, insanity, etc. </B><P><I> I repeat: "You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing the imperfect person perfectly.” --Sam Keen. I believe this. No one is perfect. And yes, I would choose him enthusiastically--even knowing what I know now...but I would want to also know about the MB principals and put them into practice from the beginning of our marriage....that way the two 'imperfect persons' are able to protect their relationship and communicate. </I><P><B> This is foolish of course, we all do what we do because of who we are, marital disharmony (Affairs or otherwise) is not a disease, it is the inevitable outcome of the psychologies of the individuals in that coupling. Some of the disharmony arises solely cause of a poor fit, as well as the individual issues, a sort of negative synergy, instead of the positive synergy a marriage should be. And of course many people should never marry, they do so because of procreation drives, and marriage is generally required in our culture to do so and be thought well of. Unfortuneately this is a shock to the people they marry (when the mask starts slipping) who carry their half of a rewarding relationship. </B><P><I> And some people should not be parents when they first start out...we have children for the wrong reasons too...but we do not advocate abandoning our parenting responsibilities unless there is abuse or neglect...and even then SOME can be retaught and can be reunited with their children....unless we learn how to be married the things you say happen can happen...but we can be retaught...</I><P><B>I need to know why my wife loves me (if she does, I don't think so, I think she needs me...that is enuf for many, does not work for me, I don't why, just who I am). I need to know why I don't love her (the passionate love, not the caring kind), and whether that makes no difference (as many say), I just have a duty to do so cause of vows etc. I need to know why she (if true and that is not clear) would accept me staying if is only about caring and duty, and not passion. These things are important to who I am, my wife says one of the reasons she married me is cause I am like that (analytical), but throughout our marriage has regularly rejected me any time I become analytical....what does that say about me? It says I am ok as long as I give her what she needs (understandable), but she does not really care much about who I am. So what happens when another values that in you, hears you, needs it too?....and so forth and so on.</B><P><I> I am passionate about my husband. What I love most about him also frustrates the h*** out of me...but that's where I am changing. He lets life happen. I act. He lets others make decisions. I make decisions. I WANT HIM TO ACT. I WANT HIM TO MAKE DECISIONS. I am learning to say. I don't know. What do you want. and I am taking a back seat. I'm sure I could find another. But what would be the point? I saw mom repeat her marriage 3 times. I've seen others repeat their marriages over and over and over. </I><P>Perhaps snl, you should stop analyzing and do the work. Sit down with your wife and do the questionairres. Quit talking about what ifs and whys. Quit talking and thinking about it and just do it. What's the worst thing that could happen? <BR><P>------------------<BR>Cali<P><I> Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. </I><BR>1 Peter 5:6-7

more later, but as to last, I am doing the work, I just analyze 24 hrs a day, awake, asleep, driving (leave radio off), I do it all the time...worries me a bit, wonder if something wrong with me . We are counselling with harley's, I am not imminently leaveing, have read all the stuff, doing the questionaires, and struggling hard inside me to be fair about all this to my w. We started out hard, not like you (and others say sometimes), so have a lot to deal with. But won't elaborate, will be accused of revisionism just the way it goes as ws, credibility is not high.

Cali,<BR> I must say you really do have a good handle on all of this! You need to reward yourself and relax! It is hard to listen to SNL's posts but it he is giving you an inside look as to how WS feels. It's a tough pill to swallow and URGHHHHH the indecision, can be enough to drive a person mad!!!!!!! That is exactly what I couldn't handle.<P> You know, hindsight is 20/20. I look back at that awful time now and feel so very good about the way I handled things. You need to do whatever you have to, to end up feeling that way too. My H stayed home for 1 month after d-day and just couldn't bring himself to leave but wouldn't commit. We talked and talked, rationally and lovingly, I told him I understood how he felt and wanted him to be happy ultimately with me or without me. I actually did become afraid that if he didn't leave for awhile we would be back in the same place some day. We had been having a difficult marriage for 3-4 years,he was in constant "taker" mode,very self centered and selfish. I just tolerated it, asked and asked for us to try to make it better and it fell on deaf ears. Like SNL says, those feelings of detatchment can come before the A. Shoot, I was detatched and could have easily been the one to fall into an affair,but I was too busy to even to get myself in such a mess. I am glad now that my H was able to experience the pain of being without his family. I am sorry he had to go through that, but it gives me much, much security to know he felt it and hated it and chose to come home.<P>Since your H isn't going anywhere anytime soon use this time to have fun with him when he will let you. Don't talk about "it" and go about making yourself stronger. Go out and do things yourself( even though you might feel like you have to drag yourself), let him see how strong you are and that you can survive this no matter what he decides. That gives them so much more to contemplate than seeing us in tears all the time. It will make him wonder more if you are going on with your life in the most normal way possible. If he wants to go out, have FUN, be the woman he fell in love with,even if you go home and cry in the bathroom afterward because it hurts. <BR> Like I said before, I was unable to ride the rollercoaster. After a month I told H I thought it would be a good idea if we separated for awhile until he could decide. I didn't make him go but told him I thought it would be best. He thought so too after much discussion. The kids and I helped him move! When we had contact it was calm and loving, we dated and the time away gave him the time he needed to think it all through and to feel the pain of losing his family. As for the length of time that "I" was willing to plan A in the separated mode........I told him I would wait until my birthday which was 2 1/2 months from the time he moved out for him to make up his mind. After that I had every intention of acting "as if" we were divorced and doing Plan B. I think that having a concrete timeline helped him to be motivated to do the internal work he needed to do. He moved home almost exactly two months after he left and even during that short time, he couldn't stay away from the house for more than 2-3 days at a time. I knew he wanted us, I knew it before he left(even though I had no guarantee and was scared out of my mind)he was just incredibly confused and just had to figure it out for himself.<P>You know too that your H has to figure it out for himself. So take a deep breathe and step back and surrender it all to God and pray, pray, pray and let him do what he needs to do and do what you have to to keep yourself strong!!! The book Power of a Praying Wife by Stormie O'Martian was a godsend to me. Check it out, I think you will find it will give you much strength. Hang in there, you are doing great!!

cali...No matter what he says, he thought I fit him once. He even used that terminology. "I picked you because we fit." Although he doesn't remember that now. <P>snl...IMO the past is well......past. My w does the same, tells me how it was, I don't remember it the same way, perhaps fog is present on both sides, be that as it may, the past means little to us (ws) it is the future we are focused on.<P>cali..You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing the imperfect person perfectly.”--Sam Keen. In a previous post you differentiated between love of mothers, sisters, etc. and husbands and wives. When I married I took my vows serious...better, worse, perfect, imperfect...till death. In my head he transformed from significant other to FAMILY. He is my family. My heart was transformed. <P>snl...this is very beautiful cali.<P>cali...The very things that 'bug' me about him are what I fell in love with. His creativity, his gentleness, his smile...his snoring, everything....He is my heart, my lover, my husband...my heart still beats faster when his truck pulls in the driveway. Just touching him still sends shivers up my spine...<P>snl...hmmmmmm, w says similar things, we find it hard to believe. An actions speak louder than words thingy I guess.<P>cali...Your right that two people should 'fit.' But if you lack the proper tools for the 'work.' Even work that should be fun, becomes difficult. You start out all idealistic and you are meeting each others needs and it is fun. My H and I had a great first 4-6 yrs. But he lacks the ability to make decisions, to tell people what he's really thinking...he gives in...I make decisions, I control...If we had known then, what I am learning now we could have reversed this 'pattern.' We would have been better partners. Our marriage would have stayed fun and we would still 'fit.'<P>snl....no way I can know if you are right, but be careful with your assumptions. What you think is bothering him may not be it at all.....and if at all possible, get him to tell you everything he can about why he loves the ow, say nothing just listen.<P>cali...Which I think we still do, because we still have a lot of fun when we are together. It is only when he starts thinking of her and that he shouldn't be feeling this way with me, that he starts to get angry and push me away...I can almost 'see' this happening... <P>snl...you are absolutely correct. My suggestion is not to comment at all, just go with it, let him lead, I know how hard it is, but let him be, say nothing. Don't allow abuse, but if gets really unreasonable just excuse yourself from his presence as calmly as possible.<P>snl...One of the things that has fascinated me throughout this, and had really never thought about (though I would say I had sort of agreed), is this almost fanatic notion that marriage must be saved at all cost. It seems much more mentally healthy to me that marriage be about two people choosing to live together in a completely voluntart intimate relationship, and that if one no longer feels they want that it end. This notion of owing someone your life, just cause you hoped for that at one time flies in the face of human psychology. I for one, cannot imagine wanting someone to stay with me a second longer than they so desire. <P>cali...Then why do so many people regret divorcing? Why do they realize that they are no better off? <P>snl...cause they didn't do their homework. There are some who in fact do have more successful subsequent relationships.<P>cali...Starting over with someone new does NOT change your patterns. More often than not, you choose someone very like you current spouse. But because you are meeting each others needs and are still in the ideal phase of the relationship...you don't see it. <P>snl...this is self-serving cali, and is not how ws think. While we recognize the risk as you point out, we are focused also on our assessment current relationship is not working. Not to try another simply cause we might be making a mistake means we shouldn't have married in the first place either, it is all a risk, each time, we are willing to take that risk.....however, we (to one degree or another, some more..some less )) do want to make sure we are thinking straight <P>cali..You don't OWE someone your life. You OWE it to yourself to look at where and when you changed...you did once voluntarily choose someone...WHY? And don't give me your revisionist historical perspective...my H has tried that...and I can take out cards and letters he wrote me that dispute what he says. It is the same stuff he now writes her....She writes him the same stuff I wrote him. I think its more about selfishness and a desire for 'romance' all the time. <P>snl....This is where it gets tricky, bs have their own fog and revision. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between sometimes....but anyways, if you trivialize it as just a juvenile desire for selfish romance you belitttle your husband and he will react predictably. If this is just your position with me on this topic...let me say this. I agree to some extent, all romances have phases and are similar, that yours did in the past is moot, what counts is how he feels now (emotionally) about you...he left for a reason, it is vital you understand that reason, don't judge it, don't try to fix it, first just try to understand it.. intellectually and EMOTIONALLY, therein lies your some of your ability to become more irresistable to him....and more irresistable than the ow. As for owing ones life, that is what it feels like when vows are thrown in your face...and who decides when one has looked at themself enuf? (but I agree using the promise of vows to request a fair hearing/chance is ok). My only issue with vows is when folks use them as the sole reason to justify marriage, it is an impossible standard, and contrary to human psychology. It is not possible for humans in any meaningful sense to vow their love to another for a lifetime, emotions are not subject to cognitive control, that is why we call em emotions. And IMO a marriage based on vows only (no emotions allowed) is tantamount to a business contract and truly horrifying as the basis of a marriage.<P>cali...I repeat: "You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing the imperfect person perfectly.” --Sam Keen. I believe this. No one is perfect. And yes, I would choose him enthusiastically--even knowing what I know now...but I would want to also know about the MB principals and put them into practice from the beginning of our marriage....that way the two 'imperfect persons' are able to protect their relationship and communicate. <P>snl...No offense, but platitudes such as Mr. Keens are of little value in the rough and tumble of human relationships. The desires of the heart are generally irresistable, maybe for a reason, I don't know. When a relationship works it is a beautiful thing (as the keens of the world point out), when it does not, it can range from a lifetime of unhappiness to depression to hell on earth, platitudes notwithstanding. Due to the messy nature of human beings, some effort should be expended in assessing why one is in a relationship and why one wants to end it, before just acting on the feeling. I think folks often do, and the MB is a major tool in that effort, true enuf, oft times the efforts made are inadequate and the choices made later regretted. Commonly someone trots out the nothing is perfect argument, personally I find it tiresome and annoying, anyone with half a brain (and I realize some think the ws have no brains temporarily) knows this..it is an ineffectual argument. It is well you would still choose your husband, folks often say this, I find it curious due to the likelihood folks dated very little and selected from a small pool...and proabably had poor mate selection skills to boot.<P>cali...And some people should not be parents when they first start out...we have children for the wrong reasons too...but we do not advocate abandoning our parenting responsibilities unless there is abuse or neglect...and even then SOME can be retaught and can be reunited with their children....unless we learn how to be married the things you say happen can happen...but we can be retaught...<P>snl...another common argument, and IMO not relevant. First children are our offspring and we have genetic predispositions to care for them, this is absolutely not true of our spouses. Our feelings about spouses are very pragmatic, and we will replace them in a heartbeat if the cost of the relationship exceeds our personal line of acceptance. But I agree, one should not abandon a spouse due to ones own deficiencies in relationship skills. Do the work first, if the relationship still does not "work" then end it (for the emotional health of all concerned).<P>cali...I am passionate about my husband. What I love most about him also frustrates the h*** out of me...but that's where I am changing. He lets life happen. I act. He lets others make decisions. I make decisions. I WANT HIM TO ACT. I WANT HIM TO MAKE DECISIONS. I am learning to say. I don't know. What do you want. and I am taking a back seat. I'm sure I could find another. But what would be the point? I saw mom repeat her marriage 3 times. I've seen others repeat their marriages over and over and over.<P>snl....the point is if you and your husband cannot find mutually passionate love, then with the skills of MB and the introspective knowledge you have gained, you should be able to do a much better job of mate selection in the future and live a better life. Your mom apparently had poor skills in mate selection, no doubt you are already much more aware than she was.<P>Thx for the conversation, as you may have surmised I am very intersted in human marital behaviour. The things I have read here on the forums have been diverse and remarkable in the range of choice and rationale people make, and as well my own circumstances have been interesting. Had someone told me I would be at this place in my life, I would have believed it impossible. At one time, I thought emotion was subject to cognitive control, I was mistaken. As for marriage, after much thought I have decided love is not a decision, it first starts with the heart and fitting, then it is a decision to act on that. This means many marriages should be in trouble (and indeed they are), cause too often we let only the heart decide. That is just as bad as marrying according to a checklist. You need both.<P>

SnL--<P>and others...<P>I am going to participate in a women's bible study. They are reading the book "The Way of Agape." I skimmed the first two chapters today. Very powerful stuff.<P>Sorry, I don't know the author, but you should be able to find the book at your local Christian bookstore.<P>Cali