Wow, thanks to all for your support. I should not be surprised but I am still deeply touched. <P>Today, I am still numb. H came home late (after 1am)and we did not speak until 5:45am this morning for about 1/2 hour just before I had to leave for work. I resent having to go to H for info, I want him to volunteer to give me info. He does when asked but not of his own accord. He has always been this way, it is just such a sensitive point now. <P>According to him this morning, OW said she was preg. without taking the test. This afternoon, OW called to say she took the home preg test and it was positive and she is planning to move far away so that I (BS) won't stress her out and cause her to miscarry. Hmmmph.... we live about 4 cities away already. If H is the F, why would a 'loving mother' want to move far away from the baby's father? Hmm..... How would a greater distance stop me from causing her to miscarry? Think reaching out and touching someone via AT&T takes longer 1 state away? I don't know her logic. <P>I told H, if anyone is stressed enough to miscarry, it probably should be me. I am not the one causing this A thing. Stupid OW. I am the one having to check. I said to H that he and OW don't really know what stress is like, since they are the ones giving stress more than feeling it. <P>I was accused of stressing her out in Dec and causing her to miscarry then. Yet no proof of pregnancy was offered at that time. Now H says, he was on the phone with her when she miscarried and that she freak when she saw blood. This is the first time I am hearing this. My how the story changes when something new comes along. Funny no mention of freaking before. Hm..... All that bleeding and not go to the doctor? When I asked the doctor about it back in Dec, the GYN said 3 weeks after the miscarriage the hormones can still show a pregnancy. OW's miscarriage if any would be slight and probably not too noticeable, like a heavier menstural cycle. Oh.... now big bleeding episode. Hm..... Now H even says that she had hormonal changes related to the loss, yet throught that time she did not show any of that via the e-mails and H did not show any signs of that himself. I know, I lost a baby back in April 00 and I went through a lot. <P>Hmmm. Now how could it be that I caused her to miscarry? I did not find out until the last weekend in Nov, place on very short phone call I said hello may I please speak to OW and she cussed me out and hung up on me. I sent her a letter in good faith (thinking she was a reasonable person and tried to appeal to her sense of 'family values'). I was in the dark and in shock most of that month. Who was stressing who? What I do see is an another attempt to get pity and H's attention. <P>I told H that if she is preg now, H needs to get doctor's proof. I will not accept her word on anything and if he is interested in his family, he will utilize a 3rd party to get and send info to her. I volunteered and told him, OW will just need to trust me that I will give H the info. Of course I doubt she would but I needed H to know that I will not stop him from his obligations however I do not trust her for anything. H got defensive and I said, she has said things to manipulate in the past, there is no trust built yet. H says but if she has a new H or boyfriend, he will not want to have sex with her. I said I don't believe that since she was married when the A started and her H did not know about the A. <P>Not sure where this is going, my love for H is not at a strong point now. I know where my obligations reside and I need more than ever to protect my interests. A part of me wishes to could cut him off completely but that is morally wrong for our son and future child. <P>I totally resent OW using this as another ploy to keep H on the string. Arrrgh...... I could be reading more into this than there is but I just have the gut feeling OW uses these excuses (preg, etc.) as a ploy. She shows no maternal instinct. H is not parental enough to recognize this. Since he thinks he has been a parent to his son. Yes in name and on occasion but not on a regular basis. Day to day parent activities is not something he has regularly done. <P>I feel like I am babbling and wasting more of your precious time. I must stop and go pick up my son from day care. The late fee is $10.00 every 15 minutes. <P>L.<BR>

Orchid,<BR>I don't post very often here, but I read every day. The few times I have, you have responded. Thank you so much for your care and concern for others. I just want you to know that I care about you and I am praying for you. <BR>

(((((((((((((((Orchid))))))))))))))<P>I began reading this thread this morning and have now just gotten back to it. <P>I won't clutter this with more advice you have gotten so much great advice already, but I wanted you to know that I feel for you.<P>You are a truely wonderful person who deserves happiness. You always are there with an encouraging word for me when I need it.<P>Please take care of yourself and the baby Orchid.<P>Many many hugs.

Orchid<P>How are you today?<P>What have you decided to do? Any new developments?<P>

Hi, <P>I thought today would be better but it is not. Buffy, I tried to give myself that <<hug>> you described and it worked. I actually broke down and cried. Guess I needed to do that. Wow, I can give myself a hug and make myself cry. Does that seem like a person desparate for affection or what?!??!!?<P>Now the emotions are in high gear and I am frustrated, confused and upset. I needed that hug, desparately. H is not around. H left for word yesterday morning and has not been home since. (H did his limo runs that took him until his last 7:15am run this morning and stayed at the office to rest inbetween runs). H called to say he was coming home this morning but he is very tired, so I don't know when we can talk. <P>Right now, I want out. Out of all of it. I don't even feel any love for H. I need to tell him that. Let OW take care of him like I did. H said he loved me but is still not in love with me. I don't know what that means and right now I don't really care. If OW loves him sooo much she should be able to do it for nothing monetary in return. Financially he owes me so much that I had to remind him all his checks went to his bills not the family's. Yes, he is working but his down time was not spent trying to better his family, but on this computer, e-bay shopping and obviously with OW. I can't take this anymore. <P>I am wrestling with myself about keeping my word, it is such a strongly entrenched part of me. H has not asked for forgiveness, he just stays here and assumes he can stay. I have been letting him know (we only talk when he is very tired - don't see him any other time) that this is not acceptable. If he doesn't fight for his family, we can't be there for him if he is there for us. All this is just tearing me up. <P>I am home from work today, because it is the last day of my son's school. I had plans to visit a friend but I don't think I am very good company for anyone right now. That also bothers me. I want to be a good wife and mother. I want so much to have a husband that is good to his family. <P>I have never put my wants ahead of my family, but now not even that can save us from this situation. I don't know what I am writing anymore. <P>I need to go and pay some bills. H's truck payment, car registration, etc. What a day. <P>Thanks for letting me vent. H says we can talk when he gets back. I honestly don't know what good that will do. I am so drained right now. Please don't worry, I won't do anything stupid. And I promise not to take his clothes to her house, today. ha ha. Tomorrow I have to go to work to oversee my crew that have been putting in some mega overtime. I have to be there for them. So I need to get my stuff done today. <P>L.

Orchid,<P>I just wanted to pop in really quick and give you a BIG (((((((((((((((((((((ORCHID))))))))))))))))))))!!!!!!!!!!<P>Really really, take care of yourself hon. I mean really, really, REALLY! <P>K/LostNco/DSN<BR>[H]'s wife

Hi Orchid:<P>That thing about your not taking his clothes to OWs reminded me of something. During our first separation, I packed up all WS clothes and took them to the office and put them in his car....and you know what!!! That's where they stayed for 9 months....he never unpack them at OWs (I've often wondered what she thought about that).<P>I think this is indicative of how even though they are in the "fog" there is always something binding us to them...something that keeps them from commiting to OW entirely....and that something is usually what brings them back.<P>Have you read [H] thread. There are things in there that really struck a cord with me...it is so hard to see the other side because we've never been there (and I hope never have to be there)...all we know is we're hurting...and the one we love the most is the cause of it. [H] describes in one of his posts:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Originally posted by [H]<BR>Well.. I told all my friends my wife was a fool to hope we'd ever get back together. I was dead set on making anything and everything work with (OW) and myself.<BR>Confusion is the first sign of the fog lifting. You start to doubt your choices with (OP) You start doubting a lot of things. Wondering what the hell your doing at times.<P>At times I thought I was dead set on things. This is what I was going to do, and no one was going to stop me. No one had to stop me. The confusion set in, you begin to wonder what the hell your doing. I often said, ("I'm so confused, I dont know what I want anymore, who I want, what I want to do, where I will be, who I will be with") This was strange for me. This is normal, its the first sign of doubt. The choices aren't so clear anymore.<P>Your not delusional, for remaining hopeful. I had to have something to come back to. If my wife was a complete pychopath, was nasty the entire time, wasn't supporting of me, wasn't caring, wasn't understanding, wasn't loving. Theres no way I would have come back. It only reenforces what I was allready thinking. She showed me the opposite. </B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I once had WS say to me that coming back to me was like a "cool drink" of water after OW. Why do they continue to stay or to remain involved with them? Because they still have unfilled needs? Maybe. But I think it's more a matter of it being hard to get out once you've got in...even if you want to. By being in the background, quieting loving and supporting them, we continue to be a reason to come out...although we can't force them to choose...we can give them a reason to choose...without you in the picture there is none.<P>I know the picture looks bleak right now...but I think he is still worth the effort to keep trying...no matter how much you want to just quit. Sometimes I look it as if he were an errant child....you don't like what they are doing...but you keep loving them and hoping that together you can solve their problem. If only it didn't hurt so bad, huh.... <P>Faye<p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 15, 2001).]

Buffy,<P>Thanks for your words of support. Need all I can get today. Sorry for being so selfish. I usually like to be out there helping. Today I feel like I am sucking up all the positive flow out on the board. <P>I will remember your words. I am a bit calmer now, H has not come home yet it is 12:31pm PST. I saw him on the road near his office while I was running errands. He looked a bit puzzled seeing me there but our bank is in that vincity. I was not checking up on him. I thought about it but didn't have to. If he was fooling around it will come out sooner or later. <P>I just want this settled to be able to make plans and move forward. I have always been a planning person and this is driving me nuts. My life, our lives have been on hold since d/d. Almost nothing else has been allowed to happen. There are other events in our lives that we have not been able to participate in due to this crummy A. While we have not totally stopped living, we have sure slowed to a crawl. That is not for me. I want to live and enjoy our life. There needs to be happeiness in it. For all of us, not just me. <P>A part of me wants to kick him out, another wants me to give him another chance. The whole of me wants to see this man fight to regain his family. If he is not man enough to do that, then what are we worth and how long will he last with us? Those are my primary concerns. <P>H makes statements like if he met OW under other circumstances, they might hit it off and he could learn to live with her. Ok, go ahead. I sure would not want to know that while he is here. Yet he also said he wished he never met her. Go figure, which one am I suppose to work with? This is going in two different directions. I hate it. I need one forward direction. I can forgive but not over and over and over again. <P>We will see. <P>Thanks again, <BR>L.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>H makes statements like if he met OW under other circumstances, they might hit it off and he could learn to live with her. Ok, go ahead. I sure would not want to know that while he is here. Yet he also said he wished he never met her. Go figure, which one am I suppose to work with? This is going in two different directions. I hate it. I need one forward direction. I can forgive but not over and over and over again. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't you think this is similar to what [H] is saying he felt...it's uncertainty...the beginning of doubt...struggling to clear his head...as long as that is there I don't think I would have a choice. Now you might do it through Plan B...at least this removes you from the everyday interactions of his struggle...and allows you to begin to move on with your life and it might be the push he needs. This might be the fastest way to get your life back to some kind of normality. <P>But for me I don't want to force him to decide...I want it to be his decision because it's right. But that's just what I need for me to be able to go on. You might be different and my struggle has been longer and crazier...and you probably don't think that is possible do you? <P>Faye <BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 15, 2001).]

Buffy,<P>Ok, you are trying to get me to think and be reasonable?!?! That stimulates gray cells and keeps me from going into the fog of despair? Now I am using my own words against me. I want so much to move on yet your words and reasons keep playing in my mind. <P>That is why I love you all so much. Knock some sense into the ol' gal whenever she is trying to be stubborn. <P>In reality, I don't want to force him to decide. I would much rather prefer he make his own decisions, let me know so I can move on with or without him. I just don't like this middle ground. The problem is this man is not a motivator and being in his depressed state of mind, he is even slower. Double whammy. <P>Now let's give you all some new info. OW is going to the doctor on Monday. OW claims not to have any insurance. Mind you this woman may not be divorced yet (checking into that status), so her H should be covering her insurance. All of a sudden she is saying she has to move to the east coast because her 'family' here will shun her. <P>Her are the new revelations I just learned today. <P>1. She doesn't have medical insurance. (she previously told<BR> H, that she was making about 80k a year, that salary<BR> you can buy your own if you are self employed)<P>2. OW's H believed in an open marriage and was fooling <BR> around on OW. (she previously told H in a e-mail I read <BR> last year that OW's H would be 'hurt' if he found out<BR> and that she needed to break it to him gently and once<BR> OW's H found out, he wanted to work on reconciliation). <P>3. OW's family will shun her for being involved with a M/m<BR> and now with an illegit child. (she previously told <BR> that her family would accept him with open arms and that<BR> they would love H & any children they had together, that <BR> her family was not unloving like H's family)<P>4. Here is the clincher: OW is asking H for $100.00 per <BR> month. Starting when and for what? I don't know. <P>Smell a rat? I do and it stinks...... <P>L.<BR>

A big rat.<P>Well until she can produce a positive pregnancy test mailed directly to you H from a doctor's office I'm not sure I'd believe that she is pregnant. She sounds like a pathalogical lier.<P>If she is pregnant there is the paternity issue. With this one a test would be a very good idea.<P>I have mixed feelings about this because I believe that a man has responsibilities to any children he fathers. But if she is married who knows who the father is. I believe that legally a child is assumed to be the product of the legal marriage. So that may mean that her H will legally be assmed to be the father until the child is born and paternity can be proven. <P>She is not a victum in this. Her husband needs to take care of her and if he cannot/will not then she needs to take care of herself and her baby. Women have been having babies all by themselves for a few eons now. It's nice when the father sticks around to help but when a woman sleeps with a married man she is stating loud and clear that she does not care if he is around to help or not. <P>Why on earth should your H give her $100 a month? That's not even enough to help with much of anything. It sounds like the start of blackmail. The problem I see here is that if your H starts supporting her and the baby in anyway, then the courts can force him to continue that payment even if the child turns out to be someone else's. I've hear of cases like this.<P>Your H's first responsibility is to you and your children. He has not responsibility to the OW. He may have some to her child if he is the parent. But don't assume that until it can be proven. <P>I know I'm not saying anything here that you don't know. I'm ranting here because I am so angry for you!! What a low life. No she was not the only one involved. But as a woman she has the responsibility for her own birth control. If she is preg it is very likely that she planned this. Especially since she's claimed preg before. <P>If you H wants to work on your marriage and is willing to break all contact with her. Your best bet would be to tell her that all future communications about the supposed child must be in writing and mailed to you. Then if she get's out of hand just let an attorney handle it. She will not be able to afford one anyway.<P>Geez....<P>Hope you are taking care of yourself<P>Z<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buffy:<BR><B> Don't you think this is similar to what [H] is saying he felt...it's uncertainty...the beginning of doubt...struggling to clear his head...as long as that is there I don't think I would have a choice. Now you might do it through Plan B...at least this removes you from the everyday interactions of his struggle...and allows you to begin to move on with your life and it might be the push he needs. This might be the fastest way to get your life back to some kind of normality. <P>But for me I don't want to force him to decide...I want it to be his decision because it's right. But that's just what I need for me to be able to go on. You might be different and my struggle has been longer and crazier...and you probably don't think that is possible do you? <P>Faye <P><BR>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 15, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh <BR>--------------------<BR>(ME):<BR>Theres fundamental things I disagree with, and agree with.. I think over all (OW) is a kind person, and if i had met her on another day, in a diffrent life, I think things might have worked out..<BR>---------------------<P>Thats from my chat log with my friend I so need to clean that log up of "swearing" and mispellings here and there, remove / change some names and get it posted. It's a huge document so it takes some time. Some 150k worth of text. As I said I spoke with my friend about 4 hours.

Hi Zorweb,<P>You are right. I believe OW will use all the tools at her disposal to keep in touch with H. H does not see that as a threat to our recovery and this disappoints me. I feel like I have to fight for my right as a wife. Hmmph...I don't want to fight, I need it given to me.<P>According to H, OW's H moved out 2 months ago. H may be overseas or he may be in town. Not sure. OW and OW's H relationship was off and on. He moved back to their home about 4 times last year. The house is only in his name. Whether the divorce has been finalized or even started, I am not sure. So can OW have her cake and eat it too? Hope not. At a certain point she did have the best of both worlds(if you could call it that), a man with money (her H) and a handy man to do projects around her house (WS) and more? Don't know.<P>Again the fog like thinking sets in. Preg is not positive and he is talking about child support, carrying for the child, etc. Instead of spending time with his child that is already here. Go figure. <P>Where is his worry about me? Some but not much and not everyday. H knows I can take care of myself but that is not the point. An H needs to pay attention to his W not some OW. H seems to be worried about hurting OW's feelings yet does not defend us when she directs her dagger attacks against his family (esp. me). <P>I know Ow wanted to be preg. She knew it would give her more control over H. Her sordid e-mails talked about this option before, so I am not surprised just majorly disappointed. <P>I will inform H about the money issue. It may scare some sense into him. Hope so.<P>L.<P>

Hey [H]. Think something went right over my head and I must have missed it...did I?????????<P>Faye

Buffy,<P>Heh oops quoted the wrong person :P My mistake.. Here's what I meant to quote.<P>From Orchid,<BR>---------------<BR>H makes statements like if he met OW under other circumstances, they might hit it off and he could learn to live with her. Ok, go ahead. I sure would not want to know that while he is here. Yet he also said he wished he never met her.<BR>---------------<P>Then I meant to post my piece of my chat log to my friend, which is the post above. There.. That make sense now? <P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie

You know Orchid this sounds like a "White Knight/Poor Little Me" scenerio. For some reason men are very easily influenced by a woman who needs them desperately...like for taking care of a baby (when her family is going to shun her)...like taking care of her health (no insurance)...finding herself financial in trouble. Now these women usually are like barracudas to the rest of the world...but the WS sees them as helpless little things...it's crazy...that they can't see them for what they are. Yeah, they're helpless like a black widow spider...and WS the next victim to be eaten.<P>I figure there will turn out to be no baby or she will move and lose the baby (after she has drained a little money from WS)...with a long drawn out emotional scene involved.<BR>Where do these OW come from...right out of the psycho wards?<P>I think OW however is playing her last cards and this thing will be over soon...all these seem like desperation measures. Try to hold on for a little bit longer...the more exposure he can have to her insanity the better...maybe one exposure will be enough to innoculate him from her forever. Oh, I forgot to mention...my WS's OW has had cancer, heart problems, an abusive husband, liver problems, female problems, one right after another since she met WS...and she claims she only has a year to live. I personally think if she should die she won't need to be preserved since she's been pickled the whole time she known him. Anyway she's always used the "poor little me" thing....and it works.<P>I in turn have been accused of being too strong...too capable...too independent...**** I just don't need WS...and maybe he needs someone to need him...maybe your WS does too. Never dreamed I'd ever see being confident as a limitation or a less than admirable thing...and it isn't...except in the eye of the WS. Foggy glasses perhaps.<P>Faye<BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 16, 2001).]

[H] Yeah. I thought that was what it was about. The answer seemed so responsive to her question. Just had me alittle confused.<P>Faye

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>You know Orchid this sounds like a "White Knight/Poor Little Me" scenerio. For some reason men are very easily influenced by a woman who needs them desperately...like for taking care of a baby (when her family is going to shun her)...like taking care of her health (no insurance)...finding herself financial in trouble. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>(Friend)<BR>She wanted a Prince valliant, and you wanted to be one.<BR>(Me)<BR>Yeah.. well<BR>(Friend)<BR>She didn't want you in the first place,<BR>(Me)<BR>After I tredged through the castle of vines and traps, cleared the way.. I stood in the tower of the castle, and realized.. I saved the wrong girl<BR>(Friend)<BR>Yep<BR>(Friend)<BR>She's at home, and still loves you.<BR>(Me)<BR>Now, i'm hanging on to some broken memories, and BS fairy dust from the past..<BR>(Friend):<BR>Be vunerable, and tell your wife how you feel.<BR>(Friend)<BR>And that can only be painful the longer it lasts.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 16, 2001).]

Hi Buffy and [H], <P>Ok, I finally caught up to the real response. <P>You know Buffy, you are right. I have always thought it was important to be as self sufficient as possible & not be a burden on my H. His 1st fiancee was not capable and expected H to wait on her. This OW (same name by the way) is demanding and controlling yet expects him to wait on her also. <P>I am so confused. H really is not fully capable or has he been fooling me all these years? We had a brief discussion this afternoon about our son. H said if he had to H could take full care of our son. I said had to? Why wouldn't he have to now? H said because I am doing that. Blow #1. So I said, maybe I should leave the 2 of you and I go off and do what you did. H said why? My response, so you can learn what it is really like to take care of a child. <P>Let me tell you, even leaving our son (6 years) with H for an afternoon is hard for me. H often leaves our son to fend for himself, while H is either on the computer or puttering around in the garage. I come home to find our son feeding himself or doing things unsupervised that could get him into trouble. Where is his dad? on the couch taking a nap. No attempt to interact. I asked H, if he thought a 'good father' is one who feeds their child once a week. H said no. I said so if our son had to live on the attention you give him, would he still be alive? H could not or would not answer. H's parents sorely neglected him and he thinks if he does just a little better than they did that it is sufficient. NO WAY!!! I will NOT let our son grow up dysfunctional like H did. <P>There has been a small break through. I noticed that H is trying to spend more time with our son but he really has a long way to go. I mean even throwing the ball with the little guy is a chore. Hmmph...... <P>L.<P>

Orchid honey,<P>I just have time to read your 1st post, you are in my prayers. I can't give advice right now as I want to stick to all WS. <P>The LB fairie thinks that all WS/OP should be burned at the stake, except for the WS who are on here who want their marriage & are willing to do so, same for OP who are here that are trying to break off with their ML.<P>Okay, LB fairie going back into hiding or no computer time