Brief history,<P>Long term on/off A was ended in Oct '00. H is still at home although sleeping in another room. We have 2 children (12 yrs and 10 yrs). Since A was over, H has continued to withdraw and since March has been determined to move out....waiting on the right time. <P>I found this site in April and started Plan A in full force at that time. ( I had been on my own plan A, but not as strong as the Harley's suggest and still had LB's mixed in)<P>I started counseling with Steve Harley about 3 weeks ago and he wanted me to have my H call, which he did willingly. Since that time, Steve has asked him to complete the questionnaires, and H seems very willing to do it. <P>My confusion and question is about his moving out. He seems unwavering on the idea that he has to get out. This is against the plan that Steve Harley wants us to work on (although we have not talked to him yet as a couple)<P>[H] (or anyone) <P>-do you have any insight into why the desperation to get out and why he would be so desperate to leave and still be willing to do the questionnaires and counseling? He still says that he is not committing to working on the marriage. Seems to me that he wants to see the results before he puts forth the effort. Is this the definition of Plan A? How will this work if he moves out? <P><BR>Thanks for your input<BR>

Hmm, Are you postive the affair has ended? <P>This sounds like what I tried to tell my wife. Told her things were over with me and (OW) then said.. "Oh I'll be moving out, it has nothing to do with you, I just don't want to work on the marriage." Something to that effect.<P>However also adding to that. Was the shame involved on my end. I found it difficult at times to even look at my wife, to see how much I've hurt her from everything, but my driving force for leaving was the affair itself. <P>Not the pain I was causing her, because as much as I didn't want to see that look in her eyes. Like I just put out her fire of life, love, and passion for the world. I wanted to comfort her as well. Wanted to tell her things would be okay.<P>Well my wife was in plan a still when I moved out. I kinda forced us into plan b later. But plan A as I understand it, is learning about yourself, taking care of yourself, while you let the affair die out. Let it crumble by its own weight. Meanwhile you take care of yourself, and your familys needs. I cannot even fathom how anyone does plan A. I guess I would have to be in the (BS) shoes, and I pray to god I am never there myself. I'm not sure if I am as strong as my wife is. Thank god I have her by my side again.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 18, 2001).]

I agree w/[H]. It could be that H is still seeing OW and is just going through the motions of the Harley counseling to say <BR>"See, the marriage still won't work even w/counseling". So he can say that YES HE TRIED BUT IT STILL DIDN"T WORK. Problem is he is going into it with no intention of trying. Hopefully i am wrong.<p>[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited June 18, 2001).]

[H] and T2F<P>Thanks so much for your quick replys. I read your posts often and really admire and appreciate your input. I really do believe that the A is over now, but I have been fooled before. I think that it may be more of what T2F wrote..<BR>"See, the marriage still won't work even w/counseling". So he can say that YES HE TRIED BUT IT STILL DIDN"T WORK. Problem is he is going into it with no intention of trying.<P><BR>We have been through the conseling thing before and it was just like this, he never really tried, but can say that he went through counseling. I am just hoping that the Harley's way of really having a plan and following it specifically can really help. <P>I really don't want him to be part of my life unless it is where he wants to be. I just wish that he could open up his mind and heart a bit to really consider what we have together. I know it sounds strange to say at a time like this, but we really have very much to hang on to and to build on. <P>Thanks again for your input.

Let me just say in answer to your topic.<P>I did leave home. I left for quite a while actually. I'm still not home as much as I would love to be right now, but Knewjie's going to head out here "CA" and drive back with me Excited about that for sure. Been a lot of places on my own lately. Lots of dark paths, good to have some light with me again.<P>So I left... I saw a post by her. That pretty much shook me up.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Today I join you all in the ranks on the D/D board. I filed yesterday and I'm quite fried by all of this. <BR>I don't have much to say right now. You all have been inspirations to me as you go though your trials.<P>I wish you all the best!<P>K<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That post right there started the downfall of things for me, enough to reach out for some help. Then along came a friend of mine, I trusted and respected a great deal. We had a long chat which is located in "As promised - My chat logs" topic. So here I am in recovery.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie

bmw - Your story sounds much like mine. My wife, on a call with S. Harley, insisted that she would not work on the marriage unless we separated. She had many resentments, anger, and I did too. The difference was that I let go of my resentments, but she didn't. She felt that she must separate in order to "heal". Steve H. did not want us to do this, because it would take longer to follow a plan. But she was firm in not working on our marriage unless we separated first. So Seve H. suggested that it was better to do that, than risk that she would only become more resentful and completely not separate, if I did not show her "respect" as she termed it, and separate.<P>I suspect that, as I subsequently found out, that your H is still having an affair (go to page 44 in MB book "Surving and Affair". The first day my wife left after separating about one and a half weeks ago I found her coming out of OMs apartment. She said she tried to stay away from OM, but after after a few weeks she called him again. This is just like a DRUG ADDICTION. My wife has been a recovering alchoholic for over 15 year. Drugs, alchohol, soul mate affairs...whatever, are not the problem. I believe it's a symptom.<P>So I'm 3 month's in plan A, and we have a call with Steve H. next week. My wife completed the LB and EN questionnaires for the call, says she is willing to work on the marriage, but will not stop seeing OM at this time. It makes no sense at all, she is in a state of confusion - and now I am - and you can only take it one day at a time.<P>I would let him move out. Don't you do it. But you have to decide whether there is a better chance of your H working on the marriage if you separate, or if he will just dig his "heels" further if you don't. I know it makes no sense, and this is where a counter-intuitive strategy somtimes has to be used, but for a WS in this state of mind I think their emotions just take over and all reasoning and logic goes out the door.

we had a short talk just now and I asked him to please consider Steve's request, but that I would honor any decision that he makes about moving out. He said that he just feels like he is going to explode if he does not get out and have some time on his own. <P>Call me crazy, but I really do not believe that the A is going on at this time. I don't have any of those 'sick' intuition feelings that I always get when something is amiss. <P>He did say again that he cannot be 'forced' into working on the relationship while he is still here, but that he does believe that the questionnaires will be helpful to him too and that he plans to do them. He is willing to talk to Steve with me next week, but Steve indicated that this joint counseling might just be if H is still in the house.<P>Another note, we decided a couple of weeks ago that we cannot afford for him to sign a lease on an apt and we do not have the furniture to fill it, so he has agreed to a more temporary situation in one of those long term suite hotels on a week to week basis. <P>I guess we will be telling the kids tomorrow night. Think of us and if it is not too much to ask, keep us in your prayers. I almost cannot stand to think about the heartbreak that our kids will suffer when we tell them that he is moving out.

BMW--<P>I think I am close to facing what you are facing right now.<P>If you can, get a hold of Love must be Tough by Dr. James Hobson. <P>It is a slightly different approach from the Harley's that might give you a slightly different slant.<P>Others on this board have recommended it to me and I finally bought it today and began reading it.<P>If nothing else, it gave me the opportunity to grow to understand infidelity in another way. That's what plan A is all about changing yourself and growing stronger.<P>It is a scary prospect, the WS leaving. I am terrified. I hope you have a network of people around you to support you. I am lucky. I have 15 years worth of friends and his family who will be here to support me.<P>I pray that both our spouses discover that they are in a 'cage' of their own making and running away from home is not going to provide the 'freedom' they think they want.<P>------------------<BR>Cali<P><I> Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. </I><BR>1 Peter 5:6-7

bmw<P>Check my reply to Cali's "Help me be stronger" post.<P>If you truly believe that the A is over and, what you are doing now isn't working, perhaps this will work.<P>It is hard. The hardest thing I ever did was watch my W walk out the door knowing she wasn't coming back home for the night...but you can and will survive...<P>E

Cali and ELAD<P>Thanks for your support. I know that you can appreciate the empty and anxious feelings that I have about this change. I have been praying so hard and I actually believe that I have left this in God's hands. <P>Based on the few feelings that my H shares with me, I know that he does love me and hope that he can recogize how blessed we both are with the life that we have been given. He will probably never realize this as long as he feels 'trapped' by our marriage, so I feel that I have to be supportive in his need for some time away. Pray for me, as I will for your that our WS will recognize the good instead of dwelling on the bad, and will take the first step toward a future built on honesty, trust and love.<P>Cali,<P>I have seen the posts on the Love must be Tough book and thanks...I will pick it up. ( I feel like I could open my own used book store with all of the relationship books that I have)<P>E,<P>I did read your post to Cali and I feel every minute of your pain. It sounds like you have a clear direction and that your love for your wife is very strong. Hang in there, the breakthrough may be just around the corner. <P>I read a very postive motivator this morning that we could probably all use, I'll post it on a new thread.

I would say (as a ws myself) that if your intuition is correct and A has stopped, that his issues are not solely about being attracted to another. BS and this board often (and probably correctly) assume A are about unmet needs and just need to be fixed. Sometimes it is far more serious than that (at least the ws thinks so), and they truly want to "escape", not cause they hate anyone, but cause they feel they are literally dieing (emotionally). For various reasons they are unable to just..."leave", and along the way an A happens. Whether the affair works out or not (and may not obviously like any relationship), it has the effect of opening the door, and giving the ws the strength of will to actually leave. That is why even if the A is ended, the ws will still hang on to the notion of leaveing, trying to gain distance from what they feel is a submissive, controlling relationship. IMO the best approach is never to challenge this kind of ws directly, it only makes us more sure we are right. Indeed we may be right (we think for a variety of psychologically legitimate reasons), and will leave, and will divorce, but that takes time, and mostly this kind of ws is generally a caring, ethical sort of person. If we are to be persuaded we are somehow confused and mistaken, it is best done by not doing the very things that make us want to leave....trying to control our emotions, and/or our behaviour. You can only make yourself as desireable as possible (within reason) and let the ws do whatever they think best....but then again, maybe I don't know anything...but I can tell you everytime I am told I am wrong, confused, unfair, and so forth, I dig my heels in and push away.

BMW - I think ther is some truth in my situation as decribed in the quote from sad-n-lonely. I think my wife was looking to escape her emotional pain. I never comprehended that she was in such pain. She completed the LB and EN questionnaires for me and for the first time she was able to communicate what her needs were and what love busters from me she was feeling. Before that her discontent with me was conveyed through "acting out" her own love busters, and putting up "walls that concealed her real emotional needs, which do change over time as we pass through different chapters of life. I think she could have had an affair with the butcher, baker, or candle stick maker, so long as she found some relief. I just pray that now that I understand things better, that I can turn things around. I believe the best way do do this is by contolling yourself and making your own positive changes. Then demonstrating this repeatedly and consistently to your spouse. In the end, no matter what, you will be a better person for it.

SNL - <P>Thanks for the insight. I appreciate your honesty on these boards. I have acutally printed some of your posts for my H because I hear many of the same things from him. I do believe that the A was symptomatic of much deeper problems in our relationship and in H himself. I have agreed to his being out of the house and am trying to be as supportive as possible without LB's. My attitude is that I will try to make home as appealing as possible so that he will want to come back. (I really only want his happiness and the only way for that to happen is for him to WANT to be home with his family....not do it out of a sense of guilt)<P>Never Say Die - <P>I too have found some relief in the communication that I have had from H about how he has felt over the past few years. I only wish that he could have shared it and I could have been more open to receiving it a long time ago. I have made many deep changes in myself, I am a better person for me and I hope for all of my family. I just hope and pray that it is not too late in the game to save my marriage. <P>I married a kind, thoughtful and loving man 17 years ago. He is still those things, just masked by an overwhelming sadness and sense of entrapment. I am letting go to let God. It is the most difficult thing that I have ever done, but if I honestly want his highest good, I must allow him the space to make the decision for himself. My decision is made, I'm in this for the long haul.<P>