I call this Diary of a Madman (WH) style. This is a vast majority of the posts I've made talking about my perspective in the (A). Hopefully it helps some of you out there.<P>=================================<BR>quote: <BR> <BR>Originally posted by Elad:<BR>Well am not sure what all this means but I am interested in your input. <BR>My W (WS) has been acting a little differently over the past couple of weeks. (For those who don't know my story PA d-day was 2 1/2 months ago. She has been living on her own for the past three months. Pretty much stopped contact w/OM after d-day although she does admit to a couple of e-mails and one phone call but claims no contact at all for the past month or longer) <BR>Anyway, she has changed a little in that she has been willing to spend a little more time at our house and with me. <BR>[H]-----<BR>This is good, spend time with her. The more time you are together, talking the better and more solid the communication. Also chatting on the phone helps too, it gives her a way to communicate with you. Without so much being right in your face, or having also to deal with maybe a disappointed look, or a unhappy face.<BR>----- <BR>Before the last couple of weeks all she could manage was about an hour at a time at the house. Yesterday she was there for the entire day (afetr we went to church together)including dinner we cooked together. She took naps in our bed Sat & Sun. Before she was adamant about not doing that. She showed up one night last week without calling, which she has never done before. Just dropped in and said she was "lonely & bored." <BR>[H]-----<BR>Lonely and bored, yes those feelings come in, but theres more to that then your looking at. Plenty of places to go if your lonely and bored. So I think what she meant was ("I missed you, and i'm afraid to say so")<BR>----- <BR>For the past couple of weeks she has said "give it time" & "please be patient" <BR>[H]-----<BR>Sounds very much like me, and my situation. I too said this, because I was having trouble breaking away from (OW) I tried to give a little reassurance to my wife. Tried even when hurting her.<BR>----- <BR>She did tell me this weekend that she feels as though she has a "broken heart" and said she hoped that even though she said that that I still wouldn't give up on us. She said maybe this "other thing" (A) was supposed to happen so she would know how important our marraiage was. But she seems so sad when talking about it. <BR>[H]-----<BR>I don't think any (A) happens because it was supposed too.<BR>However some good can and does come from situations like this, and like my own. I am talking with my wife more now then I have in a long long time. We are back to a core communications, sharing, and talking.<BR>----- <BR>She also seems to be very unsure of the path she is headed on. <BR>[H]-----<BR>I've said this as well, however my circumstances I said this under. I was still involved with (OW) So you better believe my path was very uncertain at the time. I'm not trying to imply your wife is still with (OM). Just lending to ("She's not alone with this thought") It's strange when I see things I've said before, come out of the mouths of other people, and I think back to when I said those things. I was unsure of a lot of things. Unsure if my wife and I could ever grow, unsure if things with her would remain the same, I wanted to go back to her because I still loved her, I was unsure who to turn to for help. I was unsure who was being more detrimental with thier help, then helping. helping me. ("Had friends and family, telling me what I should and shouldn't do, instead of ("We support your decisions")") I was also unsure at the time, wether or not I could leave someone who had been telling me everything I wanted to hear, someone who had ("Loved me") someone who was also manipulating me at every turn, and someone who basically said. I will always be here for you, then saying. Your wife was never there for you, and so on. Back to the good things. I hit this stage of uncertainty when I realized my (A) wasn't all it was cracked up to be, things fell apart with (OW) and I dramatically. As I started to realize what she was doing, what I was doing, and I was ("unsure of my path with her")<BR>----- <BR>She says she doesn't want me to feel like she is taking advantage of me or not being fair and doesn't want to feel like she is leading me on (when she comes to our house) because she feels lonely and sad and wants to be with someone who cares, but then making me feel bad when she leaves.<P>[H]----<BR>I really hate to say this Elad, but this sounds exactly what I said to my wife, and I was still involved with (OW)<BR>at the time I said that. I'll explain what was happening with me when I said those things. I said to my wife ("I dont want to lead you on") I was still with (OW) I felt guilty about being with my wife. It was a subconcious choice of words for me, I was really telling her. I am still involved with (OW) and I feel guilty about being here, and feel guilty that I may be leading you on, because I haven't ended all contact as I said I did. I was still lying about things then. I even told my wife at one point. That I had ended all contact with (OW) because we had a fight, and I was now ready to work on things with her. Which I partially intended, but I was secretly hoping (OW) would contact me. She did and consequently I told my wife I wanted to move out, and get a seperation afterwards. This time is diffrent with me for a lot of reasons she can't see. She can't see how sorry I am for everything, and she can't see how genuinely disgusting I feel about acting, doing, and saying the things I did to her. She doesn't see how much I regret doing all of those things. Doesn't feel how motivated I am now to work on our marriage, to rebuild what we had and more. How it's an exciting time for me to to see our future, hopes and dreams come back together. To see ("REALLY TALK") again. <BR>---- <BR>She also said it's not fair of her to ask me to have patience and hang tough and everything might be ok. But she said she thought if I did it might be. But then says she isn't sure. <BR>[H]----<BR>Very much similar to what I said to my wife again, at the time of still being in contact with (OW) These are all what I call ("Subconscious words") where you say one thing, it makes sense to you. Because you genuinely feel crappy about what your doing, and perhaps still doing, but for me it was so much more. I look back now, and it was my way of coming out with the truth of the situation. I secretly hoped my wife would examine my words, read between the lines.<BR>She's having trouble breaking free. We all do.<BR>---- <BR>She sounds a little confused and it adds to my confusion too....I am trying to be patient and understanding and I told her I was sorry she felt heartbroken and sad. And I am sorry about that. I want to make her happy again. <BR>[H]----<BR>Have patience and understanding Elad, you have thus far, and I see a good guy on the other side of this text. I see someone who's strong, caring, and loving. She needs that now.<BR>---- <BR>Anyway I just wondered if anyone had any thoughts... <BR> <BR>H.<BR>Yeah I am the (WS) so I can offer some ideas as to what she might be saying, thinking, feeling. From examples of my own history, and things I’ve said. It wont be exactly the same I’m sure, but anything I can do to help at this point I am more then willing to. This site has helped me tremendously. Reading, learning and growing. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 11, 2001).]<BR>Well... I'm not your husband. But I am a (WS) heres what I did. <BR>I had an (A) I came home, my wife knew about the affair. Didn't tell me she knew so I continued to hide it. I asked her for a divorce. I then admitted to the (A). She then told me she knew about it already. I panicked at the retribution and consequences of my actions. I avoided her a lot, but I wasn't ready to give up (OW) just yet. So I had an argument with (OW) which basically we cut our loses. Said our goodbyes, and I figured things were done and over with. So I ran home, and said I'll work on our marriage. ("But I hadn't really been committed to doing so yet.") So I just said these things. I didn't feel these things, or really want these things. I then made up with (OW) and the next day, I turned around and asked my wife that we be separated, as I wasn't sure of divorce just yet. I was always unsure as that’s a final resolution to a lot of people, and while I still loved my wife, I was being fed a lot of information from (OW) about how nasty and awful she was. So I started to almost believe these things myself, and only see these things. So the longer I stayed away from my wife the better off I was. <BR>Well with (OW's) constant manipulation, and her telling me, that I don't need to put up with the crap from my wife, and her telling me, that she's going to leave me too unless I leave. As she's afraid, i'll go back to my wife. I moved out. This from the same person who said ("I'll never leave you like your wife did, I'll be with you always, and I'll take care of you, and i'll love you forever.") <BR>So I panicked and felt I had no choice. I felt my wife was all ready upset with me, she must hate me by now. This is the best for everyone. Right? Because I see how much I’ve hurt her, its very hard for me to even look at her. I can't even look myself in the eye in a mirror anymore. I hate me, and she must as well. So the only person who's really saying I love you. ("Because I'm talking to her 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is the (OW) is now telling me, if I don't leave my wife, she's leaving me.") <BR>Well, I move out. I have no intention of going back at this point. No intention of even seeing my wife again. No intention of even really talking with her ever again, and I'll be filling for divorce soon. The sooner the better right? Because then the (OW) will know i'm serious about her and I wont ever be getting back with my wife. <BR>Weeks go by, I don't contact my wife, and (OW) and I talk all the time. Mean while she's bashing my wife any time and any chance she gets. I find my self saying some things that are nasty as well. This after all reaffirms the (OW's) feelings on us. She wont leave me that way. Since I all ready feel like my wife has left me. <BR>I talk to family and friends about our situation, and all the while saying, I’m getting a divorce. So they need to be prepared. Meanwhile the reality of (OW) and I have set in, we are constantly fighting. ("She's a real winner folks.")But I’m still freaked out, because she says I hate you, then turns and says. I love you, and I’m sorry. More manipulation. <BR>I finally get a chance to sit down with a family member, and we talk, and I say whatever it is that was on my mind, really let it out, and how I feel. The advice I was given was this ("It would be a mistake to continue a mistake") I stop, and I really think about this for a moment. A mistake to continue a mistake. I've been making so many mistakes lately, and I look at this latest and greatest mistake. I stop and think. I can change this. It's not to late. I can change this. I will change this, and stop the circle, stop the mistake from happening. Instead of running away from it. I have been running so long. It was time to stop. Time to look at the damage i've done, see what I can repair. See how I can now focus all this negative energy, turning it into positive energy towards solving these problems with my wife. <BR>So still a little weary about it all. I trudged slowly in that direction. Because at this time I figured my wife pretty much hated me. She stayed strong, stayed focused on solving her own problems, growing and learning as well. Learning about my needs, learning what she can do in our marriage to help make it work. Helping her self, and showing me that she's the woman I fell in love with. The strong, independent, fun, caring, woman I loved from the very beginning. <BR>Slowly I trudged down that path unsure that I was heading the right way. At least not yet. So I started examining all the things that i've seen from both sides of it. I looked objectively, and saw that my wife has been an inspiration to me, she's so strong, so positive, and never lost hope in me, even when I told her to leave me alone. It was for the best. She always loved me, never stopped loving me. Prayed for me. <BR>The (OW) has done nothing for me. She just was so negative towards my wife, so negative towards us in the end. So constantly manipulating me, it was hard to see that at first. She'd hold one hand out with love towards me, and the other she would silently place a dagger in my back, making sure I did this or that, because if I didn't she'd leave me. That scared me, no one likes to be abandoned. So I hoped around like a puppet. Made choices that didn't agree with me and from those negative choices rose this negativity in general. I couldn't place my finger on what I was upset about, so angry about. I couldn't see the manipulation at first. I didn't want to see it. <BR>Well I got sick of that constant tugging, when everything changes, no one is comfortable, and everyone reacts. I reacted all right. I just had not realized that I was only beginning to see that I was doing all of these things for her, and not myself. <BR>So I ended my relationship with (OW) and today? Well I am in recovery. Working towards the life I was working for in the beginning with my wife. Working towards our hopes, goals, and dreams. Working towards our family. <BR>She's an amazing woman. Amazing she didn't go insane, from all I put her through. Amazing she was so strong through all of it. She's a unique woman. I love her with all my heart, and I always will. I knew we can do anything together, and i'm very regretful for everything I did. Very disgusted with myself over everything I did. She has forgiven me, and I will too. It takes time. <BR>The moral of the story StrongerInCali, I had no intention of going back to my wife. It took me time to realize I was continuing a mistake ("No one likes to be wrong") It took me time to realize that I was a chess pawn in a game also, and I put myself there. It took me time to realize that I was hurting a very good woman who stood by me in all of this. It took me time to realize it wasn't her fault, and I needed to communicate with her in the beginning as I am now. What I am thinking, feeling, and dreaming, wondering. All those questions and more. <BR>Have hope. I was the last person in the world I thought would ever have an (A) and I was also the last person in the world that thought I would ever end up getting back together with my wife. It's okay to have hope. Even when people like me (WS) tells you differently. It's only because we feel guilty for putting you (BS's) into that position in the first place, and we are running away. <BR>My situation isn't exactly like your husbands, but perhaps the key is not all of us are the same in circumstances, however hopefully this will give you some hope and inspiration of your own. <BR>Good luck, stay strong. My wife did, and I'm coming home soon <BR>H.<BR>Well I am glad I could be of hope and inspiration. My wife and I are so excited, and so happy these days. We've just been taking small steps, and communicating a lot. Anything and everything on our minds. Putting it back out on the table where it should have been. So it's been a great and wonderful time for us again, as we see our plans, goals, and dreams show right back up. So familiar to us all ready. <BR>Keep up the hope StrongerInCali, no reason not to. Incidentally that’s one of the reasons I went back to my wife. I saw how she was again this strong woman. How she was so driven again. How she was so hopeful for us, even in the darkest of moments. Some of the qualities I loved about her in the beginning was she was (outgoing, strong, and driven) <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 11, 2001).]<BR>How are you doing today StrongerInCali? How are things going. I wish I could talk with your H, and tell him what it is that helped me get out of the fog myself. Wish I could help a lot of people here. <BR>------------------<BR>H. <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, discard the bad. Do what’s right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>It's tough. I really respect my friend. That was a big benefit to me to have someone I admired, trusted, and at the same time felt equal with. He's a good man. So that definitely helped me out, as I trust his opinions and his views. <BR>It's interesting your husband keeps asking "How do I fix this" I too said those same things, and I left to be with (OW) as well. We feel like we need to fix this, or repair the damage entirely. I felt that at times, like there’s no way I can repair the damage of this magnitude. So I need to get a divorce to start clean. <BR>It took me some time, to recognize I couldn't repair this damage alone. This isn't something I could fix all by myself, as it seems I created all by myself. That’s a common thing I believe. Many of us want to Erase the damage just as easily as it started. That definitely can't be done. <BR>We just have to start looking for the positives in the situation and say. Well I can't fix this, but I can't help myself with this knowledge now. I can learn from this mistake I made, and grow because of it. With my wife’s help of understanding me, and as we communicate, and my understanding of her. We can move past this, with time. <BR>So that’s the resolution to it for me, I can't fix it by myself, but with her understanding, love and communication with me. We can move past it, and repair the damage. <BR>Good luck on counseling. Hope everything goes well. Wish I could just give that glimpse of insight I have to every (WS) out there, and make things so much easier for everyone. I would do it in a heartbeat. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 12, 2001).]<BR>To all the (BS's) out there. Just a reminder from a man who told his wife. I don't want to be with you anymore. I am the (WS) and I so often told my wife. I wanted a divorce and or separation. She kept faith in me, in her, and in god. She kept hoping, and praying for the best nightly. Even when I wasn't praying anymore. Even in the darkest of times. She stayed strong, wide eyed and hopeful. <BR>There is hope for everyone, just have to keep working, and keep trying. If something fails, look at it from a different light and use that mistake to better the next attempt. If something isn't working have patience, give it time. Take small steps. I am by no means an expert, just offering [H]'s view point is all <BR>Above all I kept telling my wife, I don't know what you see in me anymore, I don't know why you still love me. Love is a choice. She doesn't have to love me because I do this or that. She chooses to love me. I can't make that choice for her. It's also my choice to love her, and that I do. I always have, and I always will. It's what I want, and it's my choice. Love is great that way. <BR>So have hope, have faith, and keep communicating. Keep talking, keep sharing. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 15, 2001).]<BR>Possibilities are endless Orchid. <BR>It's scary to think how much of us don't analyze the situation at hand. We look to the obvious answers in the (A) we look for the easy answers. Which are ("That our wives or husbands are evil, mean, vindictive people") Rather then truly see the parasite involved. Who is none other then the (OW), or (OM). I'm no perfect angel mind you, and I definitely take responsibility for my actions, and the consequences there after. It's so hard to even for cat's to find flea’s sucking them dry of life, and leaving them with bruised blood. The cat scratches, but the flea’s so often move, or change position. Only to reattach themselves. This is very much (OW) for me. I flinched, she moved. Changed her stance, pushed me just to the breaking point at times, then turned and told me. I'm sorry.. I love you. So I stayed. It was difficult for me to grasp that she was doing this to me, and it wasn't my wife. <BR>So often we look for answers, and sometimes in the wrong places. As (WS) we often look for the answers from (OP) instead of our wives our husbands. We don't want to believe we are being used, or manipulated. We also don't want to admit we are wrong, and we definitely don't want the fairy dust of the romance to wear off. Who would? Those magical feelings of being in love. It's like euphoria. Overwhelming at times. This person tells you everything you want to hear, and shows you everything you want to see. <BR>It's so tough to look at that objectively, and say.. Where the hell have I been? Sleeping, lost and blind.. At times it's easier to break free. After an argument with (OW) I found I fled to my wife. However this time, there was no argument. I knew what I was making was yet another mistake, I knew I had an opportunity to fix that mistake. I was tired of getting played. "You don't need to take that crap" Oh? Then why am I taking it from you (OW) Why are you suddenly allowed to tell me what I can and can't do? <BR>Guess I caught on to the game, and saw so much more then that then. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, and I'm not the dumbest either. Every situation is different, and every person is different. It takes others longer, and shorter times to break free from damaging cycles like I described above. You also have to be willing to break free from those things. So much of us don't want to do that. Because it's scary. What if I go back to my wife, and the same things happen all over again? What ifs come in to play. What if she's really just waiting to hurt me, waiting tell I come back, and then saying "Oh btw" just to hurt me. It can be a scary time. <BR>Scary time or not, it's better then being someone’s ("*****") Someone’s chess piece. Guess what (OW) checkmate, I figured the game out, and got out. You lose. Game over for you. Now you might want to work on your marriage (OW) Instead of helping me destroy mine. My accreditation goes to 3 people. In my family, My wife first and foremost. And two people in my family whom I will mention sometime, and what they said to me that really turned this (WS) back into a husband. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 11, 2001).]<BR>Well, it did take me a while to break free from her. It wasn't exactly next day. I believe it was 4 months or so. I honestly don't remember the amount of time involved. Only that it took me too long to do it, to long to see it, and that’s 4 months of working on my marriage I could have had, instead of wasted moments with (OW). <BR>So I’m a upset with my self to say the least about the whole thing. I am a smart guy, and it bothers me I let her play me. I let her tell me how to feel, act, and react. So yeah I’m bitter towards (OW) <BR>From the negatives come the positives. I am now taking all that energy and focusing on what’s important to me. That’s my marriage, and my place with God. So I'm learning what I can, growing, and changing by leaps and bounds. Taking baby steps as it were to fix the problems, and repair the damage. It's a long path and happy path. <BR>Like I said a very exciting time for us. As the communication grows and grows, there isn't uncertainty or doubt between us. There’s just love, compassion, and understanding. For me in particular I see my hopes, dreams, and goals materialize right before my eyes again. All those things we wanted are coming back to life, and I’m watching out marriage flower and bloom just as it started. <BR>H.<BR>Dancer <BR>I'm going to skip around a lot, when I write this. This is because I’m not a very good writer, and I think of things as I go. Be patient, and hopefully there's something in here you can use. <BR>The change is a gradual one. For me I was afraid at first that (OW) would find out I was talking with my wife. And I knew that if (OW) found out, then she would be very upset with me. Because you definitely know, you can't have both people. <BR>The first stage comes, if the (OW) finds out I'm talking with my wife, she'll leave. This I'm not really sure how to deal with. For me well I hid talking to my wife, and that seemed to help me. I wasn't burning my bridge with (OW) ("Yet") So I felt safe. I wasn't promising my wife the world ("Yet") and I was getting an opportunity to talk with her again. Thing is I think it's with most people as well. <BR>We leave the house in the first place, or move out. To show (OW) we are serious about leaving our wives. So that strengthens our love for them. Well most of us move back in, or come back. Now we like to blame "Money" and say it's easier to move back in, but I really don't believe that. I don't believe that because of money we move back in. If that was the case, then why aren't we getting a second job, or working extra hard, to get extra money to get ahead, and move on with our lives? If we really wanted a divorce, why aren't we doing it the next day? Why aren't we doing these things ASAP. It takes time to change, and time to realize. That it's not our wives who are pointing the finger of disgust. Saying, I can't believe this or that. It's me.. I'm the one pointing the finger, and putting words in her mouth. Saying all of these negative things. <BR>God was also brought up in my getting away from (OW) I had said to my friend. I've done a lot of things god isn't proud of I'm sure. Lying, and the Affair I know god isn't proud of. I turned away from god at the time of my (A) because I couldn't ask him for help, and then turn around and stay in the affair. I was afraid lightning would strike me down If I asked for gods help, and then did whatever I wanted. My friend said, god doesn't like any sin. It's all the same, he forgives one as easy as the next. He also said God doesn't give up his own. It's amazing that all these people are praying for me, and how god works. I happen to trust my friend whom I’m talking about here. I trust his opinions and his advice. I was reluctant at first to tell him what was going on. I assumed ("More finger pointing, and yelling") He never judged me, never told me what to do, he only asked questions. <BR>This is from a chat program. These are my actual logs of the chat, with names changed of course. I saved this chat I had with my friend. Sometime I might post the whole thing, so everyone here can see exactly how I changed even in this chat with my friend from wondering, to making that first step of contact with my wife again. For now here's a few pieces that really hit home for me. <BR>===================================<BR>(My friend)<BR>But over time you will figure out what is really important, and make that important to you.<BR>(Me)<BR>She's hurt me pretty bad in the past, and she's showing me so much love and compassion lately, and all I do is hurt her, and that worries me. She's changed a lot, and its from her reading, learning, and growing. it makes me second guess a lot of things.<BR>(Me)<BR>Like what the heck am I doing?<BR>(Friend)<BR>It's not to late to change direction.<BR>(Me)<BR>On some level, a small part of me, wonders if she's just trying to get back at me. Letting me believe some things, before she hurts me again. but I don’t think that’s the case here.. <BR>(Friend)<BR>A loving marriage is made of choices to love each other.<BR>(Me)<BR>I do still love her, I wont deny that, to anyone except (ow)<BR>(Friend)<BR>It would be another mistake to continue in a mistake.<BR>(Friend)<BR>If you have doubts, don't mute them.<BR>(Me)<BR>I just don't know what’s right. If I was unhappy before, will that happen again?<BR>(Me)<BR>Will I be almost forced to run a stray as I did?<BR>(Friend)<BR>Sure... You'll be unhappy again.<BR>(Me)<BR>But to what depths?<BR>(Friend)<BR>but things don't have to be the same.<BR>(Me)<BR>How does that resolution or agreement come about? <BR>(Friend)<BR>You could start just by working on the relationship.<BR>(Friend)<BR>Compromise.<BR>(Friend)<BR>Biblical principals.<BR>(Me)<BR>I did have a long conversation with her last night.<BR>(Friend)<BR>and love.<BR>(Friend)<BR>You have to change some of your views, and she has to change some of hers.<BR>(Me)<BR>I talked with her, as a friend mostly, I’ve done some nasty stuff to her, and I don’t know what she continues to love me in spite all of it.<BR>(Friend)<BR>love isn't based on things, it's a choice.<BR>(Friend)<BR>If it's based on things, then it's driven by feelings.<BR>(Friend)<BR>Feelings are liars.<BR>(Me)<BR>Hmm<BR>(Friend)<BR>Love is doing what is right, not what feels right.<BR>(Friend)<BR>It didn't feel good for Jesus to hang on the cross.<BR>(Me)<BR>I imagine not.<BR>(Friend)<BR>When I was saying that you'd both have to change your views,<BR>(Friend)<BR>I didn't mean to suit each other, but I meant according to scripture.<BR>(Friend)<BR>There are things that she would have to recognize about you as her husband,<BR>(Friend)<BR>and you'd have to learn to be a Christ like husband.<BR>(Me)<BR>Hmm<BR>(Me)<BR>Difficult for me to do... I don’t even know where to start with that, and I certainly don't feel like a Christian lately.<BR>(Me)<BR>in fact, i haven't prayed, or spoken to god, lately, I’m just shamed. <BR>(Friend)<BR>Again, the feelings are liars.<BR>(Friend)<BR>Those are things you should do, but they don't make you a Christian.<BR>(Friend)<BR>God doesn't disown His own.<BR>(Me)<BR>I hope not, I need his help, and I am so afraid to ask for it.<BR>(Me)<BR>Because when I ask for it, it seems I can't follow it.<BR>(Me)<BR>Or the signs aren't so clear, I know what I do is wrong, and when I ask for help, what kind of person am I to then turn and do what I feel?<BR>(Friend)<BR>He always helps us, <BR>(Friend)<BR>but not always the help we want.<BR>(Friend)<BR>It takes time to change what you do.<BR>(Friend)<BR>But that's a result of Him changing who you are.<BR>==================================== <BR>There that gets you into the mind of me for a short while, during my ("I want to talk to my wife, and I want to stop the affair, and I want to do the right thing phase.") At the time I spoke with my friend, the affair was still on going, and I wasn't talking to my wife, as my wife. Just had talked with her the night before as a ("Friend") <BR>I also had to understand that’s what I was doing. I was feeling guilty, remorse, and I was hurting too. It took me a while to say, it's okay. She will forgive you, and you can forgive yourself, and you can move on. You can get stronger because of this. You don't often read about people getting through this time. More people in this situation then it seems aren't. <BR>Another piece of it. I got so used to (OW) calling the shots, and telling me what to do, then saying if you don't I’ll leave as well. At first that scares you, but for me it was different. I began to realize. Wait a minute. (OW) is telling me, I don't need to take this crap from my wife, and I deserve better, and I deserve this and that. Then why is it okay for (OW) to push my buttons, call the shots, and tell me what I can and can't do? Why is it I can't talk to my wife if I want? Because (OW) will leave me? That's funny I don't see my wife leaving, and in fact she's just sitting at home right now, living her life, taking care of our finances, and taking care of herself. <BR>Those are all positive things. I'm not hearing from a wife who's saying, you can't do this or that. Instead I'm hearing this from (OW) and it grew on me slowly. I began to realize what I was doing was a mistake. I was continuing a mistake. Which is an even bigger mistake. <BR>Some of us are scared to make that first step. I was scared that If I choose my wife again, that things would return back to the same as they were. I hadn't realized there’s no way things can ever be the same. Things won't ever be the same now. This is a plus, I just didn't see it then. I didn't want to burn my bridge with (OW) So at first I was reluctant. Things can't and won't be the same because of the (A) I didn't see that at first. I do now. It's not a negative change over all. It's a positive one, which allows total communication between my wife and I. That communication allows much more then that. It's total un-judged honesty, love, and understanding. <BR>I spoke with my wife a little bit one day. I never said I don’t want a divorce or separation at that time. We just talked. As friends it seems. The friends that we started out as. I kept reminding her. "We're just two friends talking here" That made it much easier for both of us to say what we're thinking. <BR>Well it made it easier for me. As I was still thinking ("I don't want to lead you on, I don't want to hurt you anymore, I don't want to string you along, and I don't want things to go back to where they were") A time we didn't communicate. Lost all of dreams, hopes, and friendship it seemed. <BR>For me I was looking for my wife to say a lot of things. Like ("You had an (A)!!!!!, I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU") and so on. I looked for irrational statements out of her, I looked for the psycho behavior. I looked for vindictive things. Because these are all things (OW) was telling me to look for. <BR>I looked for judging behavior. Because I thought that’s what was coming. We've see our wives and husbands get upset before. We this is the ultimate upset.. So we expect ultimate retribution, not just a cold look from across the room, and not just a door slamming. We are expecting a major blow out. I looked for my wife to scream and yell at me, because I was expecting it. I was also being told by (OW) she's a psycho. <BR>It's when you don't see this behavior. I started to understand, my wife really never gave me an inch to fuel that belief and I still believed she was out to get me through it all. Because it made sense, I expected it. I didn't understand her. We weren't talking. I hadn't realized she wasn't pointing every finger at me. She wasn't looking to blame me. She was looking to talk to me, and figure out a way to solve our problems, a way to grow, and communicate. <BR>She was upset a few times with me, and I reminded her. Just two friends talking. So the initial first talk we had was good. It was very non-judgmental. Very innocent I guess. <BR>She did a lot of reassuring to me on her part. She reassured me, she's here for me as well. She knows that she wasn't innocent in all of this either, and no one is to blame for what happened. It just happened. We can and will grow stronger as whole. We can put this behind us. It's good we wont forget about it, but its even better we can use this to our advantage. <BR>I still feel nasty about myself, and I still feel disgusting at times, remorseful. I say things like ("Why did I do this, why am I such a terrible person, I willingly hurt my wife this way") Well I'm starting to say things like I'm human, I make mistakes, she's not pointing the finger at me, why am I pointing the finger at me. I will get stronger, I will fix these things, I will learn, I will grow, and this changes everything for the better. Before this moment, we were just two people not involved really, just people living two separate lives, on two separate wave lengths of communication. This (A) shattered our lives it seems, shattered our communication at first. It brought us down to the same level, and same wave length. <BR>Now I don't expect or assume things. If I want to know something I ask. It's so very simple now. She tells me whatever she wants. If she has questions she asks. I respond with my answers its very easy and simple. No one wants a complicated life, where they have to explain things. <BR>I don't have all the answers, I don't even want all the answers, but I can continue posting, and trying to help some of you in this most difficult time. I rather enjoy giving back, makes me feel great. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 12, 2001).]<BR>Wanted to post something else here as well. <BR>Friends with (OP) will not work after an (A) <BR>I can't and don't see how it could ever work. <BR>I see a lot of people on here saying, well my wife or my husband wants to remain friends with (OP) after the affair. This very simply put is never going to happen. There’s always going to be some detrimental effects from this. (OW) or (OM) will feel differently then you do. Beginning another (A) over time, or hindering your progress with your wife or husband. I don't know of anyone who's really broken the boundary of moving past friendship, and then going back to friendship. It's very difficult because both people have to agree on that. Both people have to see its for the best, and in an (A) type of situation. I don't think this can ever be the resolve. Perhaps the (OP) might say yeah we can be friends, but how good is it to be friends with someone that is hindering the progress of your marriage? Someone your wife or husband isn't going to want to be friends with, someone they can't be friends with. <BR>Over all its very selfish to want this. At a time when your being so selfish all ready. With I wants and I need's. It's the least I can do to help my wife, in not contacting (OP) the very least I can do to help us. It's easy for me I guess, because I see things so clearly now. There isn't some cloudy veil over my eyes, isn't someone telling me this or that anymore. <BR>Just me, really talking with my wife again. As we did in the beginning. With wide eyes, and hopefulness. <BR>H.<BR>The in laws. <BR>This is a tough one I think. For me I was worried about what I had done perhaps forever changed the look they would have towards me. I was afraid that they lost the love for me. After all look what I did to their daughter. <BR>You hear stories about people hating you, for doing this or that to their sons and daughters, people being overly defensive. Especially dads and their daughters. This is something I will and am dealing with slowly. It takes time to rebuild their trust as well. It helps when you have understanding in laws, people whom you love and trust to begin with, but its still a scary thing. <BR>("How many people know? Will they judge me as well? Will they say things at dinner, or will the silence be uncomfortable? What about other friends and family? Will my dad or mom be upset with me? Will my brothers or sisters be upset when they find out?") <BR>These are all things I think of. I am reluctant to share the story with everyone, but a lot of people know, and a lot of people are trying to understand what we are going through right now. The more people you have on your side, pulling for you. Praying for you. I think the better. There are some people you don't need to run out and tell. There are distant cousins who don't need to know, but immediate family will always know I'm sure. My plan? I don't plan to hide anything, if someone wants to know, and I feel they should know about it. I'll tell them. My wife’s spoken to people already and that’s great. It's been a good support mechanism for her. So I'm not going to dodge around the issue. If I can use what I've learned now, to perhaps save someone else the pain of an (A). Then that’s what I will do <BR>H.<BR>Awe <BR>However, My wife is the one who kept the faith in us. She kept the inspiration of our marriage going. She kept the love for us going. She is the one who kept hoping for the best, at every turn of what seemed to be despair in our marriage. She's the one who got back up after I dragged her through the mud time and time again. She struggled through many bad times, many bad things and I put her through. She's the one who kept praying for me, kept praying for our marriage. She's the one that waited for me with open arms, and a smile on the other side of the fog. Saying ("Come home baby, it'll be okay.. We can do this together. Come home... We can do anything together.") She was my light, and my inspiration. I don't think I could have made it out, with out a light shining as brightly as she was. She helped hold a steady light for me, and with that I was able to find my way out. <BR>I thank god for the many people that helped me find my way back in life. I thank them from the bottom of my heart. My friends and my family, who supported me through everything, who helped me in so many ways. I can never repay that debt. <BR>I thank the lord every minute of the day, I thank him for giving me such a patient, tolerant, loving, and understanding wife. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 12, 2001).]<BR>I to dislike counselors, but it's because I would much rather deal with Christian counselors, such as my friend, or Marriage coaches. We will be going very soon. We are talking, and we are doing our own counseling right now, which is communication, something we haven't had in a long while, but fact is I will do anything for her, and anything she wants to do as far as counseling I am more then happy to try, even with my bad experiences with them in the past. <BR>So as of this very second we haven't had our sessions yet, we will soon. I'm looking forward to learning what I can, looking forward to understanding how I can meet her needs better, and looking forward to ways of communicating with her in the future. So this is a great feeling, we get to watch our marriage flower, and start growing again. <BR>I'm not sure why I dislike counselors, I've had bad experiences with them as a whole, when I was young. Nothing but bad came from it. So I'm definitely more apt for Christian counselors or marriage coaches. Much easier to deal with. I really don't want to dredge up a lot of issues of childhood, or anything. I know I have issues with my childhood, and my wife knows as well. I want to learn how to better understand her. I want to learn how to grow from all of this, and I want to learn how we can use this to our advantage. So we can get back to working towards our dreams, and hopes. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 12, 2001).]<BR>I'll respond to Bell. <BR>I'm dead set on a lot of things right now that help me with my own marriage. Such as no contact with (OW). Fact is I have been placing a lot of blame on her for manipulation. <BR>A point I thought about making last night. I wanted to say, it's not fair of me to blame this or that person. I need to stop blaming all together. If there is fault in the situation its my own, and my own mistakes I am unhappy about. I realized that. My (W) realized that, and (OW) realizes that. I'm sure (OWH) realizes that also. Everyone made mistakes, everyone continued making mistakes. <BR>In the beginning it helped me to have (OW) to blame for manipulation. However I too did some manipulation, as I too thought it was the right thing to do at the time. This was and as I said "FOG" is a very difficult thing to get out of. <BR>Now I need to work on my marriage. There is hope, and there is life after an (A). <BR>I will continue to share what I believe to be my side of things. I am committed to no contact, and yes it did bother me (OW) showed up here in my thread, and posted some things. Because I asked simply (Don't contact me) I understand there’s two sides to every coin. I understand that no one person (OW) or (OM) was to blame, no one was more evil in the situation. It does help some people out there to break away from things by hating (OW) or (OM). As time goes on, and things settle. I don't hate anyone, I just wish I hadn't continued the mistake as long as I did. I hadn't wished I kept making mistakes. I wished I had those 4 months back of working on my own marriage, and I wished I could have been honest with my wife and communicated better. <BR>I encourage everyone to share their stories, even if it means me avoiding a thread, or not posting to a thread because it's "Someone’s else's story". I don't want to believe marriage builders is a first come first serve site. Meaning I was here first, so now (OW) has to find a new site to get help from in her own marriage. If she's truly wants to work things out with her husband, then by all means she should be given the same opportunity that I am. I am in her case the (OM) as she in my case is the (OW) I will respect her own needs of no contact. I.e. Avoiding threads, not posting directly to her, and so on. So in answer to your question Bell. I say, let her get the help she needs for her own marriage through MB, this is the same help I am getting, and everyone deserves a chance. I just hope she will in the future avoid posting in my threads. As this brings unneeded and unwanted contact between us. <BR>------------------<BR>H. <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, discard the bad. Do what’s right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Bell, Thank you. <BR>I too have thought about those same things. Which I will address in this latest post.<BR>=========================================== <BR>I also knew this day was coming as well, as I knew (OW) would be reading this site, or post a few things. I however wasn't prepared for a post in my own thread. So this leaves me a bit bitter as it shows a lack of respect for my no contact email. However that aside, I'd like to say I understand, and I can be an adult about it. In the future I just hope I don't have to deal with this again is all. Which includes responses directly to my threads, or directly to me. <BR>I first found out during my affair that my wife had been posting on this site. She was very careful and it took me some time of digging, and took me some time of logging outgoing connections on my router, to figure out exactly what site she was visiting, and who she was posting as. This was in the beginning of my (A). <BR>At first I didn’t really think much of it. I however noticed after reading and searching some very large posts about our marriage. Some very detailed things. This was my chance to know what she knew, and to see what she was thinking, or wondering. <BR>I personally never posted on this site before, because I was afraid. I am the one who had the (A) and its very scary to post on a site with what seems to be 95% (BS) and 5% (WS) it can be a little intimidating. As you expect to be food for the angry, upset, and hurt people. So originally I posted some things as (Aeon Blue) some of you responded to me. Some of you caught my original post, of how upset I was with my wife, and over time of thinking and being in the situation I would post very cryptic messages. My posts that seemed to convey the sadness of my situation. This was my intention. <BR>(OW) found out I was posting these things, and assumed I was just trying to get people to feel sorry for me. I wasn’t trying to get anyone to feel sorry for me, I was asking for help in my own way. I was saying, I am depressed about my marriage. I am depressed about a lot of hurtful things I’ve said. So (OW) snaps at me, and we have an argument or two, in which I erase all my posts as (Aeon Blue). I erase all the things I said, and spoke about. To make her feel better that I wasn’t trying to manipulate a whole crowd of people. I posted a message saying my intentions were less then admirable. <BR>My intentions on this site we’re, are, and always have been admirable. I came here in the beginning to understand my wife, to know what she was thinking, and to get some help for some of the feelings I was dealing with. My alter ego so to speak (Aeon Blue) came out, which is a much (darker) writer in me, a much more cryptic person. <BR>So I ended up posting things that seemed to be suicidal at times. I was genuinely depressed about a lot of things, I had thought about ending it all, I had thought about visiting god much earlier then he intended. I didn’t know what to do. So I wrote. My outlet for some feelings I was dealing with was this site. It helped to know some many people cared about me. It helped to know there were good things to look forward to.<BR>I thank everyone who reached out to me as Aeon Blue. Your posts and your words meant a lot to me. I got passed those rough times of depression.<P>As much as I tried to respect my wife’s privacy here. As much as I tried to avoid diving in to her personal thoughts on here. I wanted so much to know what she was thinking. I would come here and look at things she wrote. <BR>So I knew this thread, or posting would catch the attention of (OW) and given how she's not respected my (no contact) in the past, I also knew she'd post her side of things. <BR>I'm not looking to pick a fight, and I'm not looking to argue about this or that, but I keep seeing her not respect my (No Contact) request. With tons of emails from her, phone calls, and recently all of that has stopped. <BR>The emails stopped because I blocked (OW) at my providers end from sending me emails. The phone calls stopped because I kept hanging up on her, or dodging her calls with my answering machine. <BR>I just hope this isn't another attempt at getting to me. That (OW) is really here to get help with her own marriage. So I am a little worried that (OW's) intentions here are dishonorable. I guess we will see. None the less, I will continue posting here. I have nothing to hide from anyone. <BR>------------------<BR>H. / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do what's right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]<BR>I*miss*her*much <BR>I have no clue how my wife was able to have that much strength through it all. I have no idea how hard it must have been for her to sit and wait it out. She has a lot of patience, understand, and love for me. I just had not realized how much she had for me. Good things, can and do often come from waiting, and being patient. I certainly don't have all the answers, and I never will have all the answers to say. Well try this "It's guaranteed to work" everyone is different and every circumstance differs. <BR>However much of our situations and circumstances are very much the same. Subtle differences here and there, but as I read there’s a lot in common. As I read other peoples stories on this site, I find that I am saying. Oh I did that to my wife, I said that to my wife, I did this and that as well, and I want so much to say. Things will work out great, because I was there, and I did that as well. <BR>Keep optimistic, be patient, loving, understanding. Everyone has equal chances of getting back to a love they once started, getting back to a solid marriage and foundation of trust, communication, and love. <BR>I know many of you have helped my wife in her time of need. Many of you had said be strong, be patient, be supportive. You just have to believe in yourself I guess, and believe in your marriage. Both sides have to want this. <BR>For me at times I saw how my wife carried on, how she was taking care of herself, and our finances, our home, our cats, and our lives as best as she could. I also saw a very strong, supportive, and loving individual whom I was hurting at every turn. At times I didn't know how she could keep going, how she carried on the way she did. I asked myself, where is all this strength coming from. Why can she be so damned optimistic for us, when I’ve given her no reason to be. I've told her time and time again, stop caring for me, stop caring for our marriage. I told her we marriage to early, or to young. I told her to sell her ring. I told her a lot of things. Through it all, she continued to believe in us, continued to believe I would return to her. Continued to pray for me "First" mind you. In every prayer of hers, I was the first person she prayed for. Talk about humble, loving, and caring. <BR>I noticed a lot of things at the time of my (A) I didn't want to notice. These things have a way of seeping in. So I started to recognize and think about all of these things. I then started second guessing everyone. Not just my wife. Second-guessing myself as well. Maybe what I am doing isn't right. Started saying things like "I don’t know what I want, I don't know who I want, I don't know where I will be in 3 months, and I don't know what I am doing". <BR>Very few times do I remember her coming unglued at me. Very few times do I remember her not just loving me, in spite of what I was doing to her. In spite of my continued (A) these little things do add up. They added up for me. I noticed she was always willing to talk with me. I noticed she didn't get upset when she was asking me questions, or I was telling her things I didn't think she would want to know. <BR>It's tough, but I figure if I can get through it, anyone can. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, discard the bad. Do what’s right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Morriggs, <BR>Hmm I don't know about your situation really. All I can say is that one of the reasons I finally came home was because my wife showed an overwhelming desire to make things work with us. She was very optimistic, and loving through everything. That helped me tremendously to know, that I hadn't burned my bridge with her. In spite of every harmful thing I had said to her, and everything I did. It was a warm, welcome, and inviting feeling. <BR>It wasn't an "In my face" type of pressure. It was more so, I am here for you, here for us. I am still your friend, I am still the person you can share every thought with. I think if it had been constant pressure that would have pushed me away. She let me come to her to talk. She other wise made very few attempts to contact me. But when I did contact her, she was loving and supportive. So all of these things meant the difference to me. Every time I spoke with her, she was loving and supportive of me. She wanted what was best for me. When I would hang up on the phone with her. Those things would sit on my mind. Every time I spoke with her, it seemed to be positive, good, and she was loving. <BR>Just some thoughts.. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, discard the bad. Do what’s right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Well I'll go ahead and respond to Orchid's post. <BR>Yes this is Undertow. She did originally post on the d/d board. At around the same time I was posting as Aeon Blue. She did lie in the post as well, and lied to (OWH) telling him no (PA) happened. <BR>I also lied to my wife, on (OW's) behalf as well, in helping protect (OW). This was after (OW) told me. "This is the story I am telling my husband that we never had a (PA), and that we've only met a few times, and so on." So in order for the story to stick I had to lie. So I called my wife and tried to reverse some things, she thought she was crazy at first. She's smarter then that. Realized it was yet another lie. <BR>So I’m not proud of protecting (OW), and I’m disgusted with how many lies I told my wife during the (A). I will not however lie about anything for anyone anymore. I wont be lying to protect anyone. <BR>The only person I am protecting in any of this is possible retribution from (OW) against my wife. Having said that. I'm not going to contact (OWH) or tell him the full story. This is because of two reasons. I am not out to hinder (OWH) and (OW's) own marriage progress. Also this is a personal promise I made to (OW) I told her, no matter what happens. I promise to myself, and to you I won’t be contacting your husband with the full story. I stand on my integrity. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, discard the bad. Do what’s right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Endeaver, <BR>This is an interesting post. I almost want to say right off the bat that this is (OW) or (OWH) <BR>I find this interesting, because you have some deep seeded angst towards me. You specifically attack me with "Poor baby [H]" <BR>You specifically make reference to the lying above. Like you know exactly what was said, and this is your way of telling me as (OW) that you've come clean with your husband. <BR>So you’re defending, and that’s fine. Either your (OW) and defending your self. Or a complete stranger defending her. Look at what I've written, there’s a lot of negativity towards (OW) on my end. <BR>Yes it's there because at first I did look for someone to blame. However the person at blame is I. There was manipulation on both ends. However I personally don't believe I manipulated her the way she did me. <BR>But there’s some positive ness as well. I said, let her get the help she needs. Marriage builders isn't a first come first serve site with me. I was her first, so what. Doesn't mean (OW) shouldn't be given the help I am getting. However if she does and continues to be bothersome to me. Then it does destroy the integrity of a site here, and I would appreciate her leaving. <BR>I never told her to get a divorce. I never told her I was going to leave her, unless she left her husband. She is and was always in contact with him. This is not what she was doing to me. She was telling me. Leave your wife, or I am leaving you. I will play second to no one. I wont be your second choice [H] <BR>Now if you're (OW) stand before god and tell me you didn't say those things. And if you’re (OW) again, you've disrespected my wishes of staying away, and leaving me alone, I don't want contact with you, ever, not now, not later, not ever. It's simple. <BR>If you are not (OW) then I apologize but you really don't know all the details here, you don't know that there was some serious manipulation on her end. I was not innocent, and I am taking my blame, owning my part as best as I can. It's difficult, but in the end, I will get past all of this, and my marriage will grow as a result. <BR>I'm not looking for a pat on the back here. The credit goes to my wife. I spoke of that last night. She's the one that had undying love for me, she's the one that was always there for me with support, love and understanding. Credit also goes to my friends and family. I am one blessed person to have such great people around me.<P>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, discard the bad. Do what’s right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]<BR>I have done some truly hurtful things to my wife. Things I can't possibly describe words of sorrow for. Things I can't possibly express how sorry I am for. These things I did alone. These are choices and mistakes I made. These are choices and mistakes I made alone. <BR>Other people also influence these things, but in the end I made the choices. I have to deal with my mistakes, and that is what I am doing. I can truly never express how sorry I am to my wife for the (A) <BR>All I can say is I am here now, I will do what I can to reassure you, and myself, that things will get better. I can make and take steps to strengthen our communication. I can take steps in her mind that help rebuild that trust I destroyed between us. I am taking this these steps, and I am making these new choices to help grow, learn, and communicate. <BR>She asks me questions, I gave her answers. She asks for reassurance on my part, I reassure her of us. Anything I can do for her, to help ease her mind is a blessing to me. Anything I can say, any questions I can answer. Any questioners I can fill out, any people I can talk with. These are all positive things. I do these willingly I do these with hopes and desires that we will get past this. I do these things for me, because its my choice, its my desire to do so. I want our marriage to work. I want my wife and I to be happy again. I want that friendship we had in the beginning. I want to be closer then we ever have in the past. I want a lot of things. <BR>I am at fault for the (A) I know and understand that. I take responsibility for my (A) It happened. I can learn from this. The (A) was the biggest mistake in my life, I ever made. It's not something I can change or erase. It's not something we will ever forget. <BR>This is positive. As much as I would like to say, lets for get about it. That's only because I hurt her, only because its pain. Pain and hurt will heal. Now that we see what we should and shouldn't have done in our marriage. It’s so easy to see what we can, and will do. <BR>You can turn a mistake around and use it to your advantage, you can learn and grow as a result. So you don't do things the same, so you don't continue to hurt your loved ones in the future. So you can and will achieve anything you want together. It's so simple, and I get that now. I wished I knew everything I do right now. <BR>But some of life’s important lessons are often the hardest to learn. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, discard the bad. Do what’s right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Ishmael, <BR>I left many logs, emails, and such on my computer as well. That’s primarily how my wife discovered my (A). The start of my (A) wasn't manipulation or anything, it was very innocent. I was friends with (OW) to start with. So we didn't do any manipulation until we were already in the affair. I lived and dreamed everything she said to me. Every kind word I hung on. Everything loving phrase was my whole world. When I did things she didn't care for, she grabbed my puppet strings, and made me dance. With a few well placed words like "I will play second to no one." That statement really made the difference for me at times, she knew that. As I tried to defend it to her, saying, you aren't second, your first. I started to believe that. <BR>She bashed my wife, and I too started bashing my wife. I really didn't have any merit to bash her husband. I just said I would have done things differently. <BR>Added<BR>---<BR>I did find some opportunities to bash on him though, and I did some negative things. I just didn't know him well enough to say. Wow this guy is this or that. I didn't hear about him much, so its tough to say, he's a bad guy, or he's this or that. She didn't talk about him all that much.<BR>---- <BR>So I can relate partially. The manipulation came later in the game, not at the start because we had been friends for 2 years prior to this. She never had reason to manipulate me, until during the affair, when I went home and I told my wife I was going to work things out with her the first time. She was very angry with me, very upset that I was even sleeping in the same bed with my wife, that I was talking to her. So I promptly moved to the couch, and then I moved out soon after that. I'm not sure which one of us initiated

Each of us wants to do the right things in life. We want to do the right thing. None of us wants to live in a life of lies, and misery. Which affairs bring to us. It's lying to a lot of people, to friends, to family, to our wives, our husbands. We like simple lives, not complex things. Affairs are complex and difficult to deal with on all sides. <BR>You do end up lying to both people your wife and (OW) in my situation. I heard things like ("I expect you to be totally honest with me") from (OW) How can you totally be honest with this person? You can't. ("Doomed to fail in that relationship/affair") <BR>------------------------<BR>Lupolady, <BR>My family was hiding a lot from my wife as well. My dad specifically. He tried to play both sides of the fence. Lied to me as well doing so. Then added to some negative things about my wife. <BR>His wife as well, as I talked about some of the things she did to me during the affair "Like taking the money from our accounts" and how I felt I was treated before the affair. <BR>She added a lot of unneeded comments, she added to my hate of my wife also. You tend to believe things after awhile of people telling you this and that. And agreeing with you. Not all of my friends and family said negative things. My mom in fact said "Well she's always going to be my daughter in law, so don't ask me to cut her out of my life". <BR>You'll hear many diffrent things from family. They aren't sure what to say, or do. They also don't want to be shut out. They don't want to be cut off from you, as you've just cut off your wife. So they agree, and respond according to how you think and what you're saying as well. Parents often agree with thier children on issues they disagree with, just so they don't "Get in the way" It's not the right thing to do. My dad should have been honest with me as well, and said "I'm not going to cut your wife out of my life as you have". My mom said these things to me, why didn't he? As for his wife? Well I think she reacted with trying to understand, and went about it the wrong way. Added fuel to the fire. <BR>Family often doesn't support the way you want. Just have to remind them, "Why are you taking sides?" My mom never took sides, I respected that. I don't respect anyone who does. No one is right or wrong. My relationship with my father has been messed up a long time. Thats something I am working on as well. My mom and I get along great. Just wish my dad would stop lying about things himself, and be honest.<BR>I'm not 7 anymore, he can't keep lying, and expecting me to swallow it. <BR>Point I am making is. When people attack someone you love, what do you do? Even if your telling yourself you hate this person, even if your telling everyone around you. You hate this person. You defend him / her. It's your gut reaction and instinct. You may not say anything, but inside I was thinking. <BR>I could clearly see family and friends choosing sides, this in turn bothered me. Because she'd never done anything to them. Why are they attacking her? Why are they taking my side? Why are they agreeing with me? In a round about way, I was defending the woman, who I thought I wanted to be divorced from.<BR>------------------ <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Let's see here. <BR>My affair was started about a month before my wife found out. I continued my affair for probably 3 months after she allready knew. <BR>These dates and times, i'm sure are messed up. It's very difficult for me to recount all the lost time, of what I did and when I did it. So don't quote me here, and well get to that at the bottom, which is something I noticed was interesting in your post "Seems like eternity" <BR>I moved out about a week after she knew, during those 3 months I hardly ever spoke with her. I want to say about 2 months passed before I contacted her. She would know better then I would, time is a blur for me during this phase of not talking with my wife. <BR>The fog is very much real. I saw fog myself. It's very difficult to get out of the affair, it seems it's easy to create, and more difficult to leave. You get fog from both sides. I always wondered what my wife was up to. Wondering what evil she was planning. I also had some fog of my own in regards to (OW) and I. I wouldn't tell anyone where I was or what I was doing. I would try to be as vague as possible when answering questions to friends, or giving them details about where I was hiding out, and what I had been up to. <BR>I thought at one time I was truely in love with (OW) I thought, wow I'm so lucky to have met her, and she's everything I wanted in a woman, she's everything I saw. Everything I had to say about her was postive. I found I even said these things directly to my wife. That I believed (OW) was the perfect person for me. <BR>I was definately in the fog myself, it's so damn hard to leave. Once you get there, your so happy and in love with the idea of finding this perfect person, you believe everything is true about her, and you can't understand what you ever saw in your wife. Because this (OP) is so perfect, never doesn't anything wrong, and just loves you. While on the other hand, in my case my wife had hurt me in the past, and I was very unhappy with our marriage. <BR>So the fog grows, you re-write history of your own. I re-wrote so many things its scary. I look at them now, and i'm asking what the hell was I thinking? But its just that, more lies you tell yourself, to make things happy. To make yourself happy, and to make (OP) happy. <BR>You cannot build on a foundation of lies. So you can't lie to make yourself happy. You after all know the truth, and if you change a story here and there. You still know the truth. So you can lie all you like, but the memories don't change. Even if you picture the memories diffrent, they have a tendancy to resurface correctly. <BR>I will say, walking around in the fog myself, is very confusing. You have no idea whats going on, who's doing what, and you don't want to believe that (OP) could possibly just be manipulating you. You spend so much effort convincing yourself that your relationship with (OP) is the best thing that ever happened. You don't have time and effort to look at it objectively. <BR>I did that a lot. I spent a lot of time convincing myself, what I was doing, was the right thing. Because I loved this (OW) and she had shown me nothing but love in return. So I continued wandering around in the fog, continued convincing myself that things with her and I would work out, and I would be getting a divorce soon. <BR>Out of site and out of mind. If I don't have to look at my wife, and I don't have to see her, I don't have to talk to her, and I spend my days talking to (OW) then the fog grows. For me getting out of that fog, was a lot of question asking of myself. I had to ask what I wanted. I had to listen to what I wanted. <BR>Often I said, I don't know what I want. Or I said I wanted (OW). Just more fog again, because I had spent all that time convincing myself I wanted (OW) and not my wife. I dont like to be wrong. That old saying goes, if you believe a lie, it becomes truth. Well that has its merits in the fog. You start to believe things the longer you convince yourself of things. <BR>You mentioned it seems like eternity, not talking or seeing the person i talked to every day for nine years. Thats very much how I feel right now, like its been decades since I talked with my wife. It's very interesting, how I've lost track of months, days, weeks, in all of this. I wasn't aware of that at the time of my affair either. So many things happening so fast. Now, I have an opportunity to stop and catch my breath. I stopped running finally. And let myself catch up. <BR>Ask any questions you'd like. I'll try and stay as on the subject as I can. I'm more then happy to tell my story. <BR>------------------<BR>H. <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Two years is a long time to live a lie. However I don't believe anyone enjoys a complicated life of lying and making things much more difficult. He might be deep in the fog, but it's just that Fog. Fog moves slowly, and it takes time to get out of it. Even I struggled at first getting out. When I left (OW) it was because I finally saw something she didn't want me to see. I finally saw the truth and reality of the situation, not the fairy tale we were building. <BR>So I came to these realizations even on an up cycle with (OW) and myself. We had been talking, having a good time, and living life, and I still came out of the fog. So you don't nessicarily have to wait for her to drive you away, just have to be strong, and look through the fog. Which is something I didn't want to do, I didn't want to doubt what we had. I did so anyway. I doubt i'm one in a million. I'm not the most intelligent person, not the dumbest. We all walk, run, and live in the fog during those times. We just have to have a want to see something else. <BR>My want to see out of the fog was this deep down feeling, that I knew even if I didn't stay with my wife. That I needed to get out of the situation with everyone. I knew that I couldn't start another relationship on the foundation of an affair. It's when I started taking that time for me, that time to really think, it started to click for me. It was a lot of things, but I still wanted to believe that (OW) and I would live happily ever after. <BR>It's a tough place to be, it can be so confusing, and I had no idea I was even there in the first place. Many of us don't even see how clouded our judgement is, how confused we are. We just end up saying. I dont know anything anymore. Or I don't know what I want. <BR>------------------<BR>H. <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>We give away a lot of things, giving up (OP) we give up our friendship we started out with originally. So it's not an easy thing to say. Well I've gotta give something up to again be with my husband or wife. I realized I was giving up very little in the big picture. I was giving up one person for a life of happiness, growth, and love. <BR>When we give up our wives, or husbands for the other person it's because they are meeting our needs, emotional, and physically. I see that. I hung on ever word of (OW) I believed everything she told me, I believed we'd eventually even get married. I believed a lot of things then. That was just more fairy tale bs. <BR>No one likes to be alone. So we give it all away just to have somewhere to go to. Give a lot of things up to have someone to come home to. I never felt like I was giving up a lot when it came to my wife in the beginning. Since I was getting (OW) this perfect person for me it seemed. I just took me a while to realize I was giving up way more then I wanted to. I was giving up a lot of things for a lie, and an affair which was a mistake. <BR>So I had to stop continuing to make the mistake. Ego kicks in. Well i'm [H]! I don't make Farking mistakes. I'm never wrong, and this and that. <BR>Yeah... well I am definately [H] I made some huge mistakes, I made a lot of mistakes. I'm human, and I'm weak, and I make mistakes, and I'm happy to say, this is one I didn't continue to make untill it was to late. <BR>And if my wife happens to read this. Thank you for your support my love, thank you for everything you gave to us. Thank you for being a wonderful inspiration to me. Thank you so much for everything. Thank you for being patient. Thank you for being understanding. Thank you for continuing to believe in me. Thank you for all the times you still had hope in us ("Even when I told you not to have hope in us. That I wanted a divorce.") I love you. <BR>I have problems with punctuation, and getting out what I mean. I apologize if anyone interpreted my lines wrong above. So I edit my stuff a lot. :P <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 12, 2001).]<BR>Glad to help SF. <BR>Glad to do what I can to help give back support. Support both my wife and myself got from this forum here. Also showing things can and do get better as a result of hopes, wants, and desires. "Keep the faith" no reason not to. Even if your H tells you. How many times do I have to tell you this or that. I too said those things. I too used the standard (WS) scripts. I'm glad to help give some hope back to the people here. These people were there when my wife needed them, and they too gave her hope when it seemed there shouldn't be any. <BR>Thank you for your praises and good wishes on my marriage. I appreciate it, and I know my wife does as well. I wish you well on your own marriage, I hope he catches a glimpse of what it was I saw that allowed me to get out of that fog and into that intital stage of wondering what I was doing. <BR>Keep praying, keep the faith, keep hoping. Theres plenty of people who will help you in the time of need. I'm more then happy to give my time back to a community of good people who helped my wife, my marriage, and myself. Who will also continue to do so in this recovery stage. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]<BR>Never say die!, also Hubby for her. Hope this helps both of you. <BR>Well.. I told all my friends my wife was a fool to hope we'd ever get back together. I was dead set on making anything and everything work with (OW) and myself.<BR>Confusion is the first sign of the fog lifting. You start to doubt your choices with (OP) You start doubting a lot of things. Wondering what the hell your doing at times. <BR>At times I thought I was dead set on things. This is what I was going to do, and no one was going to stop me. No one had to stop me. The confusion set in, you begin to wonder what the hell your doing. I often said, ("I'm so confused, I dont know what I want anymore, who I want, what I want to do, where I will be, who I will be with") This was strange for me. This is normal, its the first sign of doubt. The choices aren't so clear anymore. <BR>Your not delusional, for remaining hopeful. I had to have something to come back to. If my wife was a complete pychopath, was nasty the entire time, wasn't supporting of me, wasn't caring, wasn't understanding, wasn't loving. Theres no way I would have come back. It only reenforces what I was allready thinking. She showed me the opposite. <BR>She too remained hopeful, and I have said many times in many posts. I never gave her a reason to be that hopeful. I kept telling her. Don't have hope for us, and give up. She remained hopeful, caring, loving, supportive. She was being the friend I could talk with at times. <BR>Market is tough right now, Economy is hard. It's that way for all of us. That will change. Be strong there too Take care of the things you need to take care of. Be strong and independant as well. I was happy in the fog, living the life I thought I wanted. The fog is a happy place at times because it hides the truth. It hides a lot of things. Your perception of things is distorted. <BR>She will move too? Then move my friend First thing that popped in my head when I saw your sentence ("that she will move too and not break-up our family") Help... <BR>Sounds to me she wants some help, she's confused. Not sure what to do. Perhaps asking you to make the choice for her. To make the choice of leaving (OP) easier. <BR>I too wanted something similar. I wanted my wife to help make it easier for me at times. I wanted her to say, look this is what your going to do. Like it or not. I was confused after all. I wasn't sure what I wanted. So I looked to other people for help. I never saw clear answers, those came from talking with my friend one day. Everything I had been saying, and writing to him added up. Less confusion. <BR>She needs help, and support. She's asking for it. Thats my take on that. Not sure what you should do, your situation may change, it also may change by the minute. I had my own cries for help as well. We all do. <BR>The (OM) Doesn't have your wife. He only thinks he does. She doesn't belong to him. She isn't property. It's her choice. It's her choice to be with him. This choice is influenced, and can be greatly influenced. <BR>She's reaching out for help, she's wondering if she's doing the right thing. (OM) is telling her yes, and things will be okay. She's second-guessing that. Good. Confusion rocks.. It works in your advantage. It allows for uncertainty, then you start doubting, when you start doubting things, you look at all sides of it. Not just what one person (OP) is telling you. I did. <BR>Show love, show understanding, show caring. These are things we need. (OP) can't show that. They can only say these things. They can only say negative things about our wives or husbands to make themselves look better. They can't and don't know that things will be okay. They too are in the fog. Wanting to believe this is the best thing. Wanting to believe a lot of things. You on the other hand. Aren't in the fog. This is an advantage. You see with clarity the reality of the situation. <BR>I said this to my friend:<BR>(Me)<BR>She's hurt me pretty bad in the past, and she's showing me so much love and compassion lately, and all I do is hurt her, and that worries me. She's changed a lot, it makes me second guess a lot of things..<BR>(Me)<BR>Like what the hell am I doing? <BR>I saw the changes in her. I saw these things, even if I didn't want to see them. I saw that she was this caring, loving woman. Strong, Independant, Taking care of things, Doing things for herself, and the good of our family. <BR>Theres a lot you can do. You'll wonder how? I feel so powerless because I can't directly step in the way, and change things. <BR>Well the change doesn't have to be direct. It can be indirect like my wife showed me. I checked up on her. As many of us (WS's) do. We check up for fear of "Whats coming next" Paranoid, we also check up on this person. Because we still love her / him. <BR>It's when I was checking up on my wife, I noticed changes. Serious changes. I asked what the hell happened to the woman who said I was her rock. Who couldn't seem to function without me. I've shown her nothing but hate. She continues to love me. I've been nasty. She's been nice. I've done everything to litterally crush her for eternity. She still loves me and cares for me. <BR>These changes are noticed. I was deep in the fog, running away from everything. I still saw these things. No way I couldn't see them. It may take time to see them, but I don't see how you couldn't. <BR>Hope this helps. This was from my perspective here. Trying to jump back in the frame of mind, stop and recall all the things that happened, and now put them into words. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 14, 2001).]<BR>Well I dont know what to suggest really. In my case I had seen my wife was busy. She was out doing things, fun things, and I to wanted to go do fun things. <BR>So at first it was difficult to contact her. It seemed she was so busy. Out a ball games with friends, or out to dinner, or out with her family, just doing things. I however did get a chance to contact her. She did leave me ways to get in touch with her. So that made me feel "Safe" that she wasn't totally avoiding me, and that I did have an opportunity to talk with her. <BR>So I would say. Go about your buisness as usual. Take care of the things that you need to do. Don't sit around waiting for a phone call you may or may not get. However leave an open way of communication. <BR>Reason I say this is like so. <BR>When I got done talking with my friend one night. I wanted so much to talk with her, I wanted so much to talk with her. It seemed eternity was passing before she got off work. I was happy (OW) did not call or try and contact me during this time period. I think my plan was to dodge the phone call. I never opened my email box during this time either. I was scared to talk with (OW) fearing, that I just stumbled upon fixing my marriage, and that things were gonna fall right back the way they were. So I needed to talk to my wife, I needed her to tell me things would be okay between us. That I hadn't hurt her beyond repair. Beyond her love for me. <BR>So it was a very frightening time for me. As i also knew the last time (OW) and I had a huge fight we fell right back into that quicksand after we talked. So I was afraid that I was going to hurt my wife again. I was scared so much I didn't even want to answer the phone. Or open my email. I didn't want to contact or think about (OW) I was on my way out of the fog, and it was getting clearer by the minute. <BR>Point i'm trying to make is this "She was unavailable at times, but available when I needed her the most" <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Buffy, <BR>This is a difficult question. I will see if I can give my perspective again on this. <BR>Most important thing. I had to have a want to leave the fog. I had to have reason to see things diffrently. <BR>So while I was in the fog, and my wife remained caring, loving, and supportive. I never really spoke to her during that time period I moved out. During what I consider the height of the (A) I still saw those things, and I still told her to move on without me. It seemed as I was moving on without her after all. <BR>It's was very important to me and my situation that she remained loving towards me. This very much influenced my decision. Not directly at first, but indirectly. I reached a point where I said I was tired of hurting "Everyone". I was mainly upset with myself, for hurting a woman who loved me so much. I started to see things diffrently as well. I didn't want to hurt her anymore. She had learned so much, grown so much, changed a lot. <BR>This below again is from my chat logs, prior to recovery, and prior to talking with my wife about fixing our marriage. <BR>(Me)<BR>Knewjie hurt me pretty bad in the past friend, and she's showing me so much love and compassion lately, and all I do is hurt her, and that bothere me. She's changed a lot friend, and its from her reading, learning, and growing.. it makes me second guess a lot of things..<BR>(Me)<BR>Like what the hell am I doing?<BR>(Friend)<BR>It's not to late to change direction. <BR>This is an important piece for me. I didn't want to continue to hurt her. I recognized that. I started second guessing myself, and my choices during my (A) <BR>Now as for the second piece of your question. "Did I realize I had no reason to ask for support?" <BR>Yep.. Very much so, in fact I thought I wanted the opposite. I couldn't understand why this woman still loved me. In fact I didn't contact her much, but when I did. She was always so wonderful to me. It left lasting impressions. She didn't blow up at me for everything I was doing. She didn't freak out even when I was being irrational. She talked with me as a friend, was very calm, very caring of me. Asking me how I was doing, if I was eating. <BR>She let me do the talking, she listened. Was non-confrontational about everything. Even when I was attacking her one night. I told her how our marriage was screwed up because of her. I was blaming her. She owned the blame, and said yes. Well I have been working on myself, I have been learning, and I see things diffrently now. I see all these things I did to you, and I am sorry. She then listed off things that she had done in our marriage that hurt me. She apologized to me a lot that day. <BR>Me looking back on that now. I cannot believe what an "A-hole" I was blaming her for all these things, and the downfall of our marriage. I made mistakes too, and I was the one who had the (A). None the less, she took responcibily for the things I said she had done. For the things she know's she did. I guess those parts of me came out rational. I don't think I blamed her for things that weren't true, or just made up things to blame on her. <BR>There is a thin line of support and being taken advantage of. I think, you know when your being taken advantage of. I'm sure my situation isn't much diffrent from many out there. Where your husbands or wives don't contact you much during the affair. It's when they do, you can be supportive, can be loving, give them a reason to see you've changed and things will be diffrent. <BR>Don't give us a reason to justify our actions. By saying "Your having an (A)!!!!" That only add's to it. <BR>So I think by my wife not blaming me at the time helped me to see things diffrently, it helped me to defend her in the long run and tell myself. "She's not the only one who's at fault here. Look what I am doing to her." Which is demonstrated above in my chat with my friend. <BR>I never expected support from my wife. In fact I was expecting the opposite. I was expecting her to flip out and do as much damage to me as she could. Taking our money, hiring lawyers to jerk me around, calling friends and family telling them what I was doing. Giving me every reason to hate her that much more. Don't add fuel to the fire... <BR>At times I did stop and do what I thought was good for both of us. There are some negatives and postives associated with that. <BR>I left my wife with most of our property, I wanted to be fair in our bills. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to put us both into debt. I also said I didn't want to get to a point where we had lawyers involved and fighting for us. I thought we could be friends after all of this was done. So I did try and do things I thought were for the good of both of us. <BR>Hope this helps some. <BR>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself. <BR>[H] and Knewjie <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 15, 2001).]<BR>Hubby for her, <BR>("I tell her that I love her and she replies "I know you do."") <BR>Said that exact same thing many times Word for word. Standard script acknowledgment of love. We do see it. We know its there. We may not say it ourselves. Check out my post above this one (Specifically for) how I blamed my wife, and put her down as well. <BR>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself. <BR>[H] and Knewjie<BR>Buffy, <BR>Thanks Not sure why more (Ws's) aren't out there posting, or sharing. This is my way of giving back, and my way of dealing with it as well. Also helps my wife to know, as strange as that may sound. She's glad to get some perspective on it as well. <BR>Yeah I'm blessed to have such a wonderful wife. Blessed to have such a great friends and family. Including those new friends and family here at MB <BR>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself. <BR>[H] and Knewjie<BR>Well she's still in contact with him I imagine, since you said she emailed the other day. While that communication exists I believe it's detrimental to your progress. <BR>Sounds like the fog is clearing on her end, but she's not ready to leave just yet. As she's still emailing him. It's tough to say if she's coming back or not, to give you a solid yes or no answer. My feeling is was I was in a similar place, and I managed to fully get out of the fog. <BR>Be patient, your seeing improvements, thats always good. The emails should have you uneasy, as any communication is communication. It hinders progress. <BR>One of my wifes requests to me, was that I not contact (OW) in any way. Via phone, Emails, Chat, Letters, ect. It was a difficult at first request to fulfill, but It got easier over time. Instead of emailing, or calling, or chatting with the (OW) I started emailing, calling, and talking with my wife anytime I felt the need to contact (OW) So as a result my wife got a lot of emails, phone calls, ect <BR>------------------<BR>H. <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>I am a (WS) and while i'm not looking forward to having conversations with people. I don't owe anyone an explanation for my actions, and I certainly don't want to be judged for anything I've done. My wife has told both of her parents. Thats fine they are good people, with solid foundations in god, and in thier marriage. If they choose to judge me, and look down on me for the (A) so be it. If my own parents choose to look down on me, or my brothers and sisters. So be it. It's thier choice. <BR>My advice isn't to run out and tell everyone, but you do need people to talk with as well as (BS) and (WS) everyone needs support. So often our parents, or friends take sides. Thinking, I'll never forgive him or her for that. It takes time heal, but i'm glad I don't have to hide away my (A) like a dark secret, let it hang over my marriage, and pray that no one finds out. Praying that someone i've told doesn't slip one day and mention it to my parents, her parents, her family, my family, my friends, her friends, and so on. <BR>I'm not worried about who knows what. I'm honest, and open. Saying yes I had (A) I am learning, growing, and communicating because of it. So if your going to judge me. Be prepared for your own judgement. <BR>("Who am I to judge or strike you down") No one has the right to judge anyone. We all make mistakes, some mistakes we feel are larger then otheres. In the end a mistake is a mistake. <BR>So, I'm not hiding it from anyone. If someone knows, they know. If someone doesn't know, and is close family. They will find out eventually. Getting things out in the open, has helped me a lot. I'm not lying to anyone these days. I'm not hiding some secret. <BR>H.<BR>Whats stopping you from telling these things directly to your husband? Instead of here. You can do it in a calm and rational voice. Can let him see how your feeling without it blowing up I hope. Or is he not that willing to listen to you? Jobs and markets are very tough for everyone, remind him of that. We all are a little worried about the market, and jobs. This economy scares most of us, as we see gas prices skyrocket, and then stocks plummit. It's normal <BR>It'll get better. He can look other places, perhaps not at something he wants to do, but something to help in a short time. It's amazing when your out of work, how much you'd you love to be working again, and making it. He may not find the job of his dreams, but something to tide him over tell he locates something he wants. Just has to try. <BR>What i'm saying, is a gental reminder. Help him look for work, help him be involved in your family. Often we need the strength and inspiration of others, and we don't get that. Or we don't see that. Or we take it the wrong way. Like ("My wife is nagging me to do this or that, or get a job") I'm not saying he'll find his dream job, but help him perhaps locate a job, that would help everyone out. Just have to do it in such a way, that he doesn't make it look like your motivation is him working. Maybe when he's busy looking through the paper, sit down with him, and look through it with him. <BR>Remind him, he can do this and that. Or look specifically for things that suite him in a job, and say well. You have this expierence, and they are looking for this. <BR>A lot of it depends on the guy as well, some of us take that type of help wrong. <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 12, 2001).]<BR>Hmm that is difficult. I'm not really sure what to say. Some people have expressed emails is a very good, none confrontational way to deal with some of these things. <BR>I'm not sure if this would help you or not, perhaps email your concerns? Or write them out long hand? I'm not sure, if you have a history of he being defensive right away, and then luring you in where you both just spiral out of control. Might want to see if theres a diffrent way you can communicate. Always more then one way to solve a problem. <BR>I don't know... <BR>------------------<BR>H. <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Hmmm <BR>("OW:<BR>Oh, baby. I'm sorry about today. I just HATE the thought of you with someone else. It just breaks my heart. I sorry. I'm just so sorry. I'll handle it better, I promise") <BR>Interesting. It's a lot rolled into one statement. Guilt him with "I just hate the thought of you with someone else. It breaks my heart." Then make him feel like he's in control with "I'm sorry, i'll handle it better, I promise" Can't promise something you can't give. <BR>This has sucker written on it. I fell for something like that easily in the fog. Twisty turning guilt, manipulation all rolled into one. <BR>We all get tired of demands, tired of do this or that, it's hard to let go of things also. <BR>Happy birthday Cali Hope your out having some fun for a change. Hope all is going well. Wishing you a happy birthday from your own state <BR>Hang in there. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]<BR>Before I get flames when I use "We" down below. I can't possibly speak for every guy out there. I can make generalized statements about what I felt at the time of my (A). So I'll use "We" a lot down below, doesn't mean that this means the entire population of guys thinks this way, but I certainly did. <BR>I posted in one of my messages, about how I expected ultimate retribution for the ultimate of hurts. an (A) I expected my wife to flip out, take all of our money, do this and that. I expected it all. I even had some justifications, because she did take the money out of our account. She left about a $0.36 in the account, and everything else was transfered as well. <BR>So I think he's jumping to conclusions here, as I did. He may be expecting you to lash out at him, doing anything you can to hurt him, as he's caused you so much pain. He maybe figuring as I was figuring that my wife was out to get to me. She's gonna do anything she can to hurt me, and I got a little mad myself. I said she can't do that!!! it's illegal, and I even made a few calls, and talked with her myself, saying this is illegal what your doing. <BR>I calmed down after she explained what was going on. I was still pissed off I didn't have much money. I said whats next? My car? My Laptop? My credit cards? What else are you going to steal, or mess with. <BR>He's using your children as an excuse to hurt you more. He's taking a small thing, and taking it to the extreme, much like I did in my situation. I think the situation gets more explosive and volitile if you have children, but it's similar in such a way, that I expected a lot of things from my wife as far as lashing out towards me. <BR>--- Added <BR>Actually started forming my responce to your question and posted before I actualy read the entire post. Your right, he is expecting these things. We all do, we expect our wives to come whack us with frying pans, or lash out at us in such extreme ways. Because we so often hear "If you ever cheated on me, I would kill you" things of that nature are what we are used to. We expect punishment. We expect woman to come unglued. <BR>Let me also add I did threaten lawyers, and lawsuites, and I did resent my wife, I was growing more hateful of her at times. She drained our accounts. :P <BR>H. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]<BR>Actually I started plan b for my wife and us. I told her to move on with her life so many times. She had written the letter, but there was no need for me to see it. I hadn't contacted her, and when I did. I said "Move on with your life". So she hadn't personally hit the formal plan B. I kinda forced us both into that. She was in plan A for awhile, that was a very strange time for me as well. <BR>I moved out, and I said. I'm done and gone. Expect papers, and I was off to live my life without her. I had her pretty much convinced to give up on me at that point. So while it wasn't formal plan B on her end. I was doing plan (WS) <BR>As a WS we basically have our own plans. We want what we want, and no one can tell us diffrent. No one can say "Well I think what your doing is wrong". Because we are in plan WS. I thought I had such clarity of what I was doing was right. I thought everything I was doing, I was finally making the right choices in life, and finally getting rid of all the mistakes I made in the past. I wanted the clean start. After all I did so much damage to her, and us how could we ever recover from this. How could she ever forgive me? <BR>Just didn't see it another way, until much later down the road. After some genuine help from a good friend. I finally started seeing the path I was on, was wrong. However it wasn't to late to switch tracks and go another way. So thats what I ended up doing. I switched tracks and headed back. <BR>I stopped running, and started heading back. <BR>Hope this helps. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Bell, <BR>You've been a great hope and inspiration for us all here. You've been a great friend to a lot of people here. Including myself. You sought to protect me on here, in my own thread. You give advice thats sound in sight and sound in paragraph, heart, and mind. Theres no question in my mind who to believe bell. It's understood he's going to lash out at you. <BR>When I first got on this site, and saw all these things my wife had posted about me. My first thought was "Create" an account and get on here, denounce her status with everyone, tell everyone she was lying, tell everyone theres two sides to the arguement, and make it look like she was a liar. <BR>I choose not to do that, I had some integrity. Why is he trying to force you to get rid of your support Bell? Why does he despritely want you not to talk with anyone? Is it because we are making sense, and he's afraid? I too thought everyone on marriage builders was clearly co-dependant, and clearly insane for sharing thier problems so openly here. <BR>Well as I understood what this site was all about, the fear left. You fear things you don't understand. Like why would a complete stranger give you two cents of decent advice, and why would they say "Hang in there, Hugs! Be patient! Your a great person!" and so on. Fear. I feared this site too in the beginning, thinking that all these people were out to get me, because my wife painted this not so pretty picture of me too. <BR>I failed to pick up, that this isn't a husband bashing site. This isn't a wife bashing site. You all aren't ganging up on me. Just telling my wife, that things will be okay in the long run. That it's okay to be angry, its okay to be upset, it's okay to be hurt. She needed support, and everyone here gave it to her. Including you Bell. I appreciate everything you've said. I appreciate having this forum available to my wife. I appreciate everyone here. The knowledge we all have, the sharing, its a huge benefit. <BR>I've seen and read some damaging things of my own in the beginning and I freaked out, and said holy crap, this is so one sided. These people are going to hate me. If i even post here once i am a dead man, I will have this huge mafia of wives knocking on my doorstep for all the rotten, hurful things I did to my wife. <BR>This place isn't like that. It's a place of healing. So while I may see your genuinely upset with your husbands words, actions, and reactions to things. I'm not out there thinking he's insane, and I would love to clean his clock. It's not about that at all. I don't care about the bad things he's doing. I just wish he'd stop doing it to a good woman who's trying so hard to say. I love you H. I wish you'd come home, I wish we could talk we used to. I wish you wanted to work on our marriage. I wish you'd come out of the fog. I am trying everything in my power to help, and thats just it. Its a powerless feeling im sure. <BR>Seriously, why is he so afraid of help? Why is he so scared he's now threatening you with divorce if you don't stop getting help here. Because he thinks your lying to us? Why get rid of all your books? <BR>He needs to stop running away, and be a man. Face the facts, face the music, stand up, put the ego aside. Say. Yes I screwed up, I made some huge mistakes. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Now how can we repair this? How can we grow from this? What can we learn from this? What can I do to help? <BR>Bell, I'm praying for you. Praying for your H as well, praying he has the courage to admit he's making and continuing mistakes. <BR>Again, thank you Melissa. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I too will remember you. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]<BR>Bell, <BR>Find a way to get back to us please. I'm concerned, and feeling kinda bad myself. I'm sure everyone here is going to say it wasn't my fault. However you shared my words with your husband, and as a result. You are no longer here. So I'm feeling badly about that. I'm not sure why he became that angry. Not sure why he does the things he does. <BR>Please let us know your okay Melissa. <BR>My prayers, hugs, and strength with you. Thank you for everything you've done for my wife, and myself. You are apppreciated beyond words. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Melissa, AKA "Bell" <BR>Thanks for the update. I was worried and got a phone call from a friend telling me that you had been found, and you were okay for the moment. I was very relieved. <BR>My point of view was this. I posted a lot of things, and while I don't control your husband. You shared my words with him. So I feel paritialy responcible for that. They are after all my words. I would love to have hoped that good would have come from it. Perhaps something sunk in? I don't know. Instead he chose to react diffrently. <BR>Not sure why your husband isn't picking up on this. <BR>You do get stronger admitting your mistakes. You learn from it. You grow from it as a result. You're so much stronger knowing where you went wrong, then choosing to say. I was never wrong. I don't understand that logic myself. I don't understand why people cannot grasp that concept. It makes sense. Use your mistakes to make you stronger. Knowledge is power. <BR>Simply saying "I was wrong" changes nothing. It's when you understand how you went wrong, and where, it changes everything. <BR>Thank you for the update Bell, you are in my prayers. <BR>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself. <BR>[H] and Knewjie<BR>I too am awake at this late hour, lots surfing through my mind. <BR>Worried about you Orchid, and Belldandy. Oh and miffed (OW) decided to respect my no contact wish by posting in my thread. Very hmm "Noble" of her. <BR>It rains it pours. Take things slow, take a breather, watch the weather change. <BR>Above all, take some time for yourself. Lots happened recently takes time to react to everything. <BR>Glad he's finally seeing some light. I am one to believe it's never to late to do the right thing, the honorable thing. Lots of negative things happening around there. So gotta do something postive to balance it out somewhere. Least I think thats how it works. Gotta have some pluses with your minues. <BR>Above all, you can change your mind. You can switch gears. My friend told me this. Because I thought I was headed down a path that I had to continue heading down. The choice is yours. If you still want to try and make it work, and he finally is getting out of the fog, he's finally seeing exactly what it is he is doing. The mistakes he's making, and continuing to make. If he finally says I get that, and I understand. I wan't to work on things. Then the choice is up to you, and he what you do. You don't have to follow through with divorce just because you threatened it. <BR>My wife too said, well this is it. It's final if you choose this path. I took the path with (OW) she was patient. I expected a divorce and things did turn around for us, just when it seemed it was all down hill. <BR>He has to believe, and he has to want as well. Is this the only and first time he's said I will break things off with (OW)? I too tried many times to break things of with the (OW) in my (A) was so difficult at first. <BR>Why is it he doesn't see her negativity. Why doesn't he see that for face value. It's vicious. Doesn't matter if she's sweet him now, but I see some serious underlying evil and vileness about her. Even from here. I can see that. <BR>It's brutal, who'd want a (OW) like that? So it took his fairytale dust a lot longer to wear off then it took mine. It wears off, and its difficult to believe its gone. So you hang on to it more. You ignore some things like "Wow this woman is out of control" Look at the vicious circle we're in. Look at how she's treating me. <BR>This woman who said "I love you" is now getting upset with me, because I'm trying to be happy, i'm trying to stop lying, and i'm trying to do the right thing. I'll address your husband if thats okay.. If not i'll edit the post tomorrow and erase it. <BR>(Orchid's H)<BR>-------------------------------------<BR>I know its hard to break free. I've been there myself. I found it so difficult to say (Please don't contact me anymore) I found it more difficult also when she then responded with Hon!!! whats going on, and other emails that ensued. Phone calls that followed. I am here alone right now, and I didn't have someone else to watch over me and help me in that tough time really. So I relied on myself to do the right thing. I flooded my wifes email box with emails everytime I felt I wanted to respond to (OW) <BR>It's hard. The OW in my situation was a good friend of mine who I knew for 2 years prior. It was also sad that I was going to loose my dear friend in all of this. That choice I made because I knew it was the right thing. This is one of those times where the right choice is the one of the hardest things you will do. With time it gets easy. You start to see all of the negativity in the relationship. You start to notice little things like "Wow I can't believe I let her sucker me in with that" I used to think I could spot someone slinging BS a mile a way. I'd sit around with my friends or co-workers and say. Look at the story that guy or girl just spewed out. I can't believe anyone would buy that BS. <BR>Same thing here my friend, only we are the unfortunate people who are swallowing up the BS. Taking it in and saying, yeah he or she is right. When we know deep down, it isn't right. We know its total crap. We just don't recognize that quickly. <BR>It was also hard for me to admit I made a mistake. I don't like to be wrong. I am always right, this and that. Well I was wrong, and I made a mistake. The ego tends to add to this. Well the mistake your making and contining to make is appearent. The tears your feel are real. I to cried when I hit the bottom. I to said, why do I feel so lousey. Well thats because I was continuing to believe the lie. Contining to swallow the bait like a fish. <BR>Seriously, look at the amount of patience and understanding your wife has for you. You think OW is seriously gonna put up with that amount of crap? Hell no. Why does your wife? Because she loves you, genuinely loves you. Your son also loves you, he just wants his father back. Someone to take him to ball games, and someone to pass on grand advice when he runs in to trouble later in life. Where will you be? Make a stand my friend. Listen to your heart, and stop hurting a woman who cares for you so deeply. Do the right thing. <BR>You and your wife have history together. Ow will be nothing but pain in the future. <BR>I told my friend that I started to see things were "Good" but not "Great" with (OW) yeah well guess what? That's coming out of the fog. Put two and two together, its down hill from there. You know that all ready. <BR>(Me)<BR>I want to let go of (OW), she's sweet, kind, and loving at times... But our past is damaged goods, there’s no future with her right now. <BR>Thats from my chat with my friend. She's damaged goods, as is your relationship. Stop hiding, stop lying, come clean.. You will feel so much better when your not trying to keep track of what lie you told who. You will feel so much better when your not trying to justify your actions to everyone. When your not thinking of excuses to say. When your not spending all this time and energy hiding, or putting out fires with either side. <BR>(Me)<BR>My wife knows me, we've got history, she really is trying, has shown me worlds of love, and compassion through all of this, but I’m scared things will sit exactly as they have in the past...<BR>(Me)<BR>Which brought me to being unhappy and then I had an affair... <BR>Things wont be the same. Thats a plus. Rest assured my friend, the damage is done. No more need to hurt people, no more need to worry about nothing changing. We've all ready made sure of that with the (A) in the first place. Now time to work on rebuilding. Time to use this mistake to your advantage, time to say. <BR>You love this woman right? You wanted all these grand things in the beginning, you had all these hopes and dreams. Whats stopping you from achieving them? To have a perfect marriage? Aint nothing standing in your way but (OW) my friend. Cast her aside and get back to basic communication, be understanding, be loving, be caring. It's simple. You remember all those times you looked at your wife in the beginning and said. "I can't possibly be more in love with you" Oh it's possible It does happen. Just have to try. Just have to want. It's easy really. Learn how. <BR>Take me for example. I don't know a ton about women and thier wants thier needs. My wife is telling me what will make her happy. She's learned a lot from books, and this site. I'm happy to learn right along side of her. It's great to stop and say, oh hell I understand now, and I can't believe I was doing that, wow okay.. I'll stop and do this instead. <BR>(Me)<BR>I feel so horrible when I talk to her, because she's been a good wife, she's done some things in the past, that have truly hurt me, and I lashed out in such a way... I’m at this point now I guess.<BR>(Me)<BR>But I can't blame her entirely for these things...<BR>(Friend)<BR>Part of this has been escalated.<BR>(Friend) says:<BR>And it happened fast, and fast is bad.<BR>(Me)<BR>I should have been more open and honest about how i felt during those times...<BR>(Friend)<BR>Sure.<BR>(Friend)<BR>And you could be now. <BR>And you could be now... I said I should have been more open and honest about how I felt during those times I was unhappy in my marriage. My friend chimes in with.. And you could be now. Oh right! I'm still married, I'm still married to her. I thought I had burned my last bridge, but he's right.. I am still married, she still wants to work on the marriage. "I am being now" I am more open and honest with my wife now, then I ever was. Then I ever had been, and she's the same way with me. It's like falling deeper in love, or all over again. This is the good part, this fairy tale doesn't end, doesn't have to end. <BR>(Me)<BR>I'm letting (OW), manipulate me too, based on her feelings for me, and my feelings for her, and it continues... it's harsh... I’ve felt I could never meet anyone as caring as her, and lately, I’ve seen some really negative and cynical crap from her.<BR>(Friend)<BR>When everything changes quickly, no body is comfortable, and everyone reacts.<BR>(Me)<BR>And i'm just f-ing sick of being judged by everyone... <BR>Whats the verdict on this one folks? Well simply put It's coming out of the fog. It's realizing i'm tired of seeing this negative and bitter attitude from her as well. I thought it was just my wife. Oh it's never one person. It's everyone. Because its a vicious circle. <BR>Want to stop being judged? <BR>Own up for your actions, and end the (A). <BR>Want to stop justifying where you were, who you were with? End the (A) <BR>Want to stop lying?<BR>End the (A) <BR>Want to stop fighting with everyone?<BR>End the (A) <BR>Want to stop hurting everyone?<BR>End the (A) <BR>Focus.. <BR>Friend) says:<BR>You should focus on one thing at a time.... always moving toward a goal.<BR>(Friend) says:<BR>If you look at all of it, it can be overwhelming. <BR>Focus on one thing at a time my friend. First things first. Stop the (A) Send the no contact letter, send the no contact phone call, get some help. Talk to people who've been in your shoes. <BR>There is no future with (OW) there never was. You never had time to plan a future, you never had time to do anything.<BR>So why are you holding on to the past?<BR>Everything has happened so fast, and so quick. You ran. You escaped. Stop running. <BR>Hope this post helps him see some of the light.<BR>Sorry for mispellings, gramatical errors, puncutation and other stuff.. It's late.<BR>------------- <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<BR>Oh.. <BR>and Orchid's H. <BR>Stop being (Ow's) doormat friend. Don't let her do your thinking for you. This is your life not (Ow's). You're a person not property. She doesn't own you, and doesn't pull your strings. You're not a puppet. Your a man. <BR>Your wife is one great lady, she's helped all of us out here at MB. I can't say enough good things about this great woman here. She cares for you deeply, loves you genuinely, and is commited to helping you. She's an amazing person really. Finds the time to help all those on this site with thier problems, while she's dealing with her own. She's got kids to take care of, a job to go to, and a husband who she still loves. She just wants you to come home. Really home. She just wants things to be better. Want's things to be great again, to be happy. Who wouldn't want that? <BR>Orchid, <BR>I hope I haven't stepped on your toes with this post at all. Hope it's full meaning and value is presented in this post. I'll just go ahead and apologize now, if this is stepping over the boundries here. <BR>(Hugs) Thank you for being there for my wife, an myself. As I am now trying to return the favor. <BR>-- <BR>Added, and now I can get some sleep <BR>I knew I was awake for a reason.<BR>-- <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 14, 2001).]<BR>During my (A)<BR>(---------------<BR>I tried so hard, to get so far with (OW) I too had to fall a long way to get back to reality. In spite of all the times I fought with her, in spite of the way she controlled me at times. I kept a lot inside. It all fell apart in the end. It all unravelled with us. I had to fall to lose it all. <BR>I put my trust in (OW) I pushed as far as I could go too. I fell a long way, and I tried not to... I got this far, and I tried so hard to get there.<BR>-----------------) <BR>After the (A) <BR>Things aren't the way they were before, she didn't even know me. It doesn't even matter how hard you try keep that in mind. <BR>In the end? It doesn't even matter. It's gone, a thing of the past. Time to work on my marriage. Time to rebuild the love, and trust I once had. Time to see things from a new perspective. <BR>-----------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 14, 2001).]<BR>quote: <BR> <BR>Originally posted by buffy:<BR>Don't you think this is similar to what [H] is saying he felt...it's uncertainty...the beginning of doubt...struggling to clear his head...as long as that is there I don't think I would have a choice. Now you might do it through Plan B...at least this removes you from the everyday interactions of his struggle...and allows you to begin to move on with your life and it might be the push he needs. This might be the fastest way to get your life back to some kind of normality. <BR>But for me I don't want to force him to decide...I want it to be his decision because it's right. But that's just what I need for me to be able to go on. You might be different and my struggle has been longer and crazier...and you probably don't think that is possible do you? <BR>Faye <P>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 15, 2001).] <BR> <BR>Heh <BR>--------------------<BR>(ME):<BR>Theres fundamental things I disagree with, and agree with.. I think over all (OW) is a kind person, and if i had met her on another day, in a diffrent life, I think things might have worked out..<BR>--------------------- <BR>Thats from my chat log with my friend I so need to clean that log up of "swearing" and mispellings here and there, remove / change some names and get it posted. It's a huge document so it takes some time. Some 150k worth of text. As I said I spoke with my friend about 4 hours.<BR>Buffy, <BR>Heh oops quoted the wrong person :P My mistake.. Here's what I meant to quote. <BR>From Orchid,<BR>---------------<BR>H makes statements like if he met OW under other circumstances, they might hit it off and he could learn to live with her. Ok, go ahead. I sure would not want to know that while he is here. Yet he also said he wished he never met her.<BR>--------------- <BR>Then I meant to post my piece of my chat log to my friend, which is the post above. There.. That make sense now? <BR>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself. <BR>[H] and Knewjie<BR>quote: <BR> <P>You know Orchid this sounds like a "White Knight/Poor Little Me" scenerio. For some reason men are very easily influenced by a woman who needs them desperately...like for taking care of a baby (when her family is going to shun her)...like taking care of her health (no insurance)...finding herself financial in trouble. <BR> <BR>(Friend)<BR>She wanted a Prince valliant, and you wanted to be one.<BR>(Me)<BR>Yeah.. well<BR>(Friend)<BR>She didn't want you in the first place,<BR>(Me)<BR>After I tredged through the castle of vines and traps, cleared the way.. I stood in the tower of the castle, and realized.. I saved the wrong girl<BR>(Friend)<BR>Yep<BR>(Friend)<BR>She's at home, and still loves you.<BR>(Me)<BR>Now, i'm hanging on to some broken memories, and BS fairy dust from the past..<BR>(Friend):<BR>Be vunerable, and tell your wife how you feel.<BR>(Friend)<BR>And that can only be painful the longer it lasts. <BR>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself. <BR>[H] and Knewjie <BR>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 16, 2001).]<BR>Not sure if this was directed to me specifically or not. Caught my attention none the less. <BR>He said, he was going to try to come home for good. Have to wonder whats going on. Did he have a fight with OW? Is he coming back to you just because of that reason. As I turned to my wife too, when I fought with (OW) as we said, well this is it. I don't know. <BR>It's interesting though, I'm sure you're wondering the same thing. Even my wife wondered in the beginning if I was really serious about coming back. If I was really serious about working on my marriage. Since I had told her. Yeah i'll work on things, and we can have a future again. <BR>Thing is. I said those things, I didn't feel them yet. Your husband is on the same path I was on. Baby steps. Take it calmly and easily. Let him show you what he wants. I had to show my wife what I wanted. Not just respond to her questions. This time she see's a definate change with me. She knows i'm coming home, she knows I wont be going back. <BR>Because I am showing her these things with my intentions, my words, and my actions. She can see clearly, what it is I am doing. <BR>She's not worried it's just more BS and crap out of my mouth, and I am just agree'ing because i've had a fight with (OW) she knows because I am showing her. In my words and actions. <BR>Theres a piece of information you left out. Did you call him? Did he call you? How did he sound? Was he very "Reluctant?" <BR>I believe when I called my wife and told her things like "I'm coming home" I said it. I never showed it. My wife asked me specifically, about (OW) if I would send a letter of (No contact) I did so. I was just going to avoid (OW) at first, and just stop communication. Rather then give an explanation of why I was going to contact her anymore. <BR>I did send her a no contact letter. This was action, this reaffirmed things. That helped us. My actions were in sync now with what I was saying. Instead of just saying something, and doing the opposite. I stuck to my decision. I stuck to my choice. I did so with action. It was "My choice" I wanted that. I didn't want it, because my wife wanted it. I wanted it for me. <BR>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue <BR>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me. <BR>[This message has been edited by [H]

saw this thread mentioned in another, looked it up, then bumped it up so I could find it again and let other newbies see it too.

Wow. This was so long, but looked so interesting, I thought I would print it and read it later tonight... hehe... 58 pages.... hehe <P>Thanks for bumping it up. I'm looking forward to curling up with a cup of coffee tonight and reading.... .

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[B]Wow. This was so long, but looked so interesting, [B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This was one of the first people and posts who gave me hope that there really WAS a ray of "normalcy" after an A.<P>I took EVERY word [H] said (most of it reiterated here) and MEMORIZED it, I think!! It was less than a month from the time my WH left and [H] started posting, and recovering, so it was very healing and uplifting to me.<P>I will forever be grateful to this TOTAL STRANGER who somehow managed to explain on a computer screen what was happening and how I COULD have hope of a future after the events that had devastated me.<P>Thanks forever, [H] and wife Knewjie. Prayer helped, I know.<BR>I wish you always and forever GOOD fortune, LONG AND HAPPY marriage, and nothing except good times and God's blessings.<P>Lupo<BR>

So are they still around? I have not seen any postings from them for some time. I have wondered if things were still going good for the two of them in recovery?<P> I was one of those who posted to Aeon Blue, which as he mentioned was the first name he used. When I read his first posts I was very worried that he would commit suicide. I was at the same point in my life at that time, so felt I could relate. I too hung on every word he wrote as [H], he had much wisdom. <P> Is this couple still around?<P> jd

Hello [H],<P>I don't know if you know me, I am a BS and have been on this site for 1+ years. I read a good portion of your "Diary" and I am in tears. I can't even catch my breathe, this post has touched me so deeply, so profoundly. <P>Your friend is a very wise person, and God shown down on you when He gave you that friend in your time of need. <P>I will read on, thank you for this post, [H].<P>Blessings,<BR>Jo

[H] also posted many times to me when I was InShockInCali and StrongerInCali...he also gave me hope when I felt there was none...<P>Actually many WS's have helped me feel hope...Trueheart, Chazbutler, Venezio...even SadNLonely...<P>That's why we need to remember that TIME is on our side...and never make decisions in haste or strong emotion...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

I printed off this thread - it is a hefty 1/4 stack of paper - read it this afternoon and think maybe I can get through my WH's fog - for a while longer anyway. I don't know if you are still here H, but thank you for leaving us this legacy.

For the last couple of days i have been feeling despondant about the future. Whether my H and I would ever sort this out. I felt not, that nothing is progressing...it's not getting worse. Just nothing is happening one way or the other.<P>After reading most of this post, I have to say that my hope has been restored. It brought tears to my eyes many times.<P>I often wonder what goes through my h's head regarding my Plan A efforts...I would like to think it was similar to what [H] was thinking, about how strong his wife was, and ultimately he was able to see again the great love she had for him. I am hoping today...yesterday I really believed he couldn't care less.<P>I wish these guys were still around, they would be of great help to us all. Guess they're off somewhere being busy in a happy marriage. Good!<P>There is hope!<P>There is hope!<P>There is hope!<P>And probably more than I have read on any other thread, though a lot of the success stories have been encouraging.

The the Man who wrote this original post about your affair and reconciliation with your wife. I'd like to know more about what your wife did or said that help you see her as being there for you. i'm tyring to win my husband back. he already divorced me in July but i desparately want him back, miss him, love him, want to go on for the rest of my life with him and rebuild, rejuvenate and nourish our marriage. We have 4 children too and i want them to see a happyily married mom and dad. we never fought, no affairs. just that he thinks he's been living a lie these 9 years of marriage because he claims he never loved me and made a mistake to marry me in the first place. he somehow thinks that life not under the same roof with me will be better. he seems to enjoy his little apartment and has even enjoyed the flirtations of women at work who've found out he's available now. i don't want him to think i'm going on with life with out him and i'm doing just fine but everyone says it'll just make him not want me if he sees that i do still want him and am pinning away for him. please tell me what your wife did or didn't do that helped. it would be great if she came on here and told it to me as well. i need to believe that the hope i'm holding out that we will remarry one day is not unfounded.<P>thanks, <BR>lafrance

Greetings all! In case you don't know, I'm am [H]'s wife. My dear friend Orchid told me this thread was resurrected so I thought I'd come looking for it.<P>Since I'm on my lunch hour I don't have much time to respond but I wanted to let all of you know that I'll let [H] know tonight that there are responses to this thread. I doubt we'll be able to respond tonight.<P>A little update for you all. We are doing absoutly WONDERFUL! We've been off having a wonderful time. Today is the first time that I've actually been to the board in almost 2 months.<P>Hang in there ladies and gentlemen. Remember that ugly word, TIME! Time, patience, love and lots of prayer. Take care of YOU!!<P>My thoughts and prayers are with you all. *HUGS* to all.<P>K/DSN/LostNco<BR>[H]'s wife

[bump]

Knewjie and [H] your story saved me and gave me hope when I thought I had none...<P>[H] gave me shreds of hope that are now growing . . .<P>TIME is on the side of marriage...make no decisions in haste or strong emotion!<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

^<BR>^<BR>^

Bringing this up for new comers...<p>K/DSN/LostNco
[H]'s wife [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Wow, how you guys doin'?<p>WAT

WAT,<p>We're doing wonderful!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for asking.<p>I've been lurking and looking in on a few people seeing how they are doing. This place was my life line for such a long time so I thought I come in and bump this up for all the new comers. It gives them some insight that they might not have otherwise.<p>I'm not here that often for many reasons. Crisis is over and we have progressed so far that I don't need these boards anymore. Also it's really hard to come back and see all the pain. It never seems to end.<p>I'm sorry to hear about your wife. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] But you are a survivor and will be just fine. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hugs, love and prayers to all.<p>K/DSN/LostNco
[H]'s wife [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Bump ^^^

Resilient, <p>I am so glad you bumped this up. I read through this the other day, and it just made me CRY!! I'm going to keep this at the top for a while.<p>
CJ