Orchid:<P>Sorry, I missed responding to your reply on my post:<BR>[H]......and others.......SO CONFUSED - HOPELESS <P>I wanted to thank you for your input:<BR> <BR><B>Dear HW,<BR>Even though the know they are being lied to or suspect lies, the WS still clings to the OP. My WS has always said that if he can prove that OW lied to him that would be it. Well, in the few dealings with OW I had, I caught 3 lies. Not good enough to H. So I became convinced that this is just a statement, H is not really interested in catching OW in a lie, it is just an excuse he is saying. <P>The reason for the breakup between the WS and OP is because the WS wants the breakup not because of someone else's fault. That is also the same reason why the WS can't really<BR>leave the BS. I told my H, he can go 'anytime'. That would mean he abaondoned his family, responsible for evicting his family from their home and will be know by all who know him as just that type of person. I will not sugar coat his true condition. Ooohhh.... H did not like that picture. It was not pretty. He would have much rather left and be viewed<BR>as a good man who left his family to be with the adulteress OW. <P>Go figure. See any sense in that last statement? Hmm......yet that is what they want. Ok, so I gave that scenario to H, he didn't even buy it. So the WS continues in their own confusing vicious cycle. They know it doesn't make sense but they won't see or do the right thing. Can't help stupid.<P>L.</B><P>The lies are running rapid. I think with WH it's denial?<BR>WH is living on lies now and continues to do so.<P> RE: The reason for the breakup between the WS and OP is because the WS wants the breakup not because of someone else's fault. <P>I'm not sure what you meant by this "not because of someone else's fault"? <P>My WH didn't and doesn't care about appearances. He is very opened about what he is doing. H has been living with OW for 11 months now and isn't even trying to hide it<BR>whatsoever. In this state you are to be separated 1-2 years. Even during separation, infidelity is considered adultery, unless there is a legal separation and it's agreeable to both parties and stated that both can "date".<P>Don't know if you had read my recent posts, but H even brought her into court with him. So he is displaying openly his adultery in court. I'm sure this was vastly viewed detestable in court, to say the least. Now how does that look? Bringing his adulteress OW and his children into court with his W? This should have been something between just him and I. I'm sure the Judge saw this clearly, and most likely perceived this as negatively on his behalf. Nothing like flaunting the adulteress in court, right in front of the Judge, W and everyone. Much less dragging his own children into this mess, totally not called for and in<BR>extremely bad taste. <P>I would say this did reflect poorly on his character, or should I say lack of any. The Judge really let him have it, shot him right down before he even got a chance to open his mouth. She is a sharp lady. <P>Nothing WS do make sense, if you ask me.<BR>You are right....can't help STUPID. <P>Thanks...take care.

Hi HW, <P>I am sorry you are in this mess. Boy if we only knew what state our spouses would be in ahead of time. <P>In response to your my statement and your question: <P>"RE: The reason for the breakup between the WS and OP is because the WS wants the breakup not because of someone else's fault. <P>I'm not sure what you meant by this "not because of someone else's fault"? <P><BR>Your h should come back to you because he 'WANTS' to come back to his family for the right reasons. Using the OW, anyone else or anything as an excuse will not last. The return home will be short lived at best and you will be miserable in the interim. No, recovery is because the WS wants to recover not have it easy. <P>WS's like to blame others. Oh, my H said, if I was nicer at the beginning he would have been back sooner. Go figure! I told him, when I was nice (while being in shock or not even knowing of the A) he got worse. So he better come up with another excuse. <P>Let them blame whoever they want. You can't reason with fogheads. Don't hurt yourself trying. Sounds like your H is going to really make a fool of himself to HIS entire world before he wakes up. Honey, you gotta let him go and do that one by himself. It will hurt to watch but you gotta. <P>Just strengthen yourself to be ready when he turns to you, if you still want to be there for him. You can't give him any guarantees. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<P>

Orchid:<P>It is a real mess, no doubt in my mind. <P>I have NO idea what H is thinking, I actually don't think he is....a real foghead. I think he is stuck on self-destruct.<P>He already has made a REAL fool of himself and continues to do so. You can only LIE to some people and get away with it, to others it so obvious. When he is lying to law enforcement....oops. <P>I well know there is NO reasoning with him. I am letting him go, not much else I can do. I know he is hanging himself and doing a grand job of it.<P>I don't think he would even attempt to return and at this point. I think it's over and beyond the point of NO return. Not that I wanted it this way, but apparently he does.<P>Thanks much for your reply....best to you. <BR>

Dear HW, <P>There's a song that goes something like: You may be right, I may be crazy.....about a lunatic that you're looking for. <P>I don't know why that is running through my head right now. Guess our H's act that way. <P>One thing I learned, never say never. There is always tomorrow and that is something you control. If you are ready to move on, then you will. Your H can choose to change. We hear of so many who end up leading lonely lives due to bad choices in their younger days. I used to listen to those stories when I was younger and always hoped I was not as foolish. Well, I did meet some who were and they could grow up to be sad and lonely men & women. <P>I envision OW to be that way and H could be also if he keeps up his current direction of confusion. I tell H this and it kind of scares him. Good it should, it sure does scare me. <P>Have you read the 5 stages of grieving thread? I can post it to you if you'd like. That really helped me cope and move on. See even though H is home, I am still moving forward. H is slow and falling behind, he is still strugglng to catch up but keeps running into obstacles of his own making. Now he is seeing that. He needs to build the confidence and right attitude that he can overcome his handicap. I can help but not do it for him. His feet are his own and he must learn to stand on them by himself. <P>HW, please take care of yourself and your family. <P>L.<BR>