I was reading an article and ran across soemthing that blew my mind. the article was about an affair, and when the OP was asked how they felt about the affair, her response was it was not an affair, it was too long in duration for that. It was a relationship without a ring.<BR>IT BLEW MY MIND, WHEN DOES AN AFFAIR BECOME A RELATIONSHIP?? I am still picking up the pieces of the now ripped up article. I know that my H affair was and a because he stepped outof the marriage not because of the time frame ( which was about 5 weeks). WHat are your opinions on it???<BR>Maine<P>------------------<BR>In even the darkest of places there is a capacity to love

My opinion is that it doesn't matter what you call it - it's still wrong, it's still probably doomed to failure, it's still based on hurt and deceit.<P>The OP is often as much in the 'fog' as the WS...<P>Best wishes, Paint.

The lies told to each other, told to everyone else to hide the affair, told to themselves and to their spouses will eat up any hope of anything good.<P>In a true relationship do you have to hide?

mainemade,<P>while I was involved in an A, i didn't want to think of it as an A. I wanted to think of it as a relationship. And for both people involved, both are in the fog especially if both are married to other people. Once I actually believed and called it an A, I had to take a good look at what I was doing and who I was hurting. While an A is a relationship, it is a harmful relationship for all involved. At least that is how I see it now.<P>dlm

ditto. An A is not and never can be a relationship. Stop the one your on and take care of those issues before you go and pursue a REAL relationship.

There was an earlier post where I actually quoted the OW as saying that her and H were like they were 'married', then she said 'they were better than married'. Go figure that one. <P>Can't put to much thought when a foghead speaks. Too much babbling. It will stress you out and they still go on their merry way. <P>Chalk it up and consider the source. Then toss it aside and go on about your business. Normally we would not give a stupid comment another thought, but these OPs and WSs sure know how to get under our skin. <P>L.<BR>

Typical rationalizing. Anything to help their denial that what they're doing is wrong.<P>Remember the word origin of "wayward."<P>way - the route or path to somewhere<BR>ward - loonie bin<P>WAT

OMG!!!!! WAT .. that was priceless! Loonie bin .... LMAO!!!!!<P>Thank you for making my day!!! <P>Best,<BR>Jo

I believe that particular script comes from page 162 in the book <I> Affairs for Dummies </I>*** <P><BR>***No, not a real book, but I'm considering submitting a chapter 1 and a cover letter for it....any interested publishers out there??<P>Cali<P><p>[This message has been edited by StrongerInCali (edited June 22, 2001).]

I think that the term, "Affair," is somewhat still of a "taboo" word. People who try to justify their affair will find any other word possible to avoid the truth. An affair is an affair, whether a person accepts that term or not.

My W was not having an "affair" or a "relationship". She was having a "friendship". Maybe it won't bother her so much if I call it an EF instead of an EA.<BR> -- Jeff<p>[This message has been edited by jeffers (edited June 22, 2001).]

WAT.........That was pretty funny, and I would say has a um.... useful warning to all in the def.<P>Maine.....the op is correct. Humans form all sorts of relationships under all sorts of circumstances. The problem with the word affair, is it has two meanings. First it is a simple placeholder for identifying the actual marital circumstances of one or both parties emotionally attaching to someone other than their spouse. That is useful cause the label alerts us to a whole series of profound consequences, that should be considered. That in itself makes it no more or less a relationship, since the affair can be quickly ended by divorce, at which point the label no longer applies, but the relationship still continues on. <P>The second implication (and said outright over and over) is that the affair is intrinsically wrong somehow, evil, immoral, blah blah blah...... well, some are and some are not...but the same can be said for any human relationship, including marital ones. In many cases (and apparently the majority) affairs are not honorable (that is marriage is not the real intent of the parties), to one degree or another one or both parties are using the other. Sometime it is as crass as just liking the thrill of a new sex partner, other times it arises out of serious personality disorders preventing one (or both) from acting responsibly in their marriage/lives. The focus then of our culture is to condemn...stop....and fix those individuals (and rightly so) cause they are a threat to the cultural stability paradigm we have evolved.....the monogamous marriage.<P>However in some cases affairs lead to stable long-term 2nd marriages, such marriages would not occur if the affair had not occurred..hence the notion of exit affairs. This is why IMO you see resistance to using the word affair, if the parties are mentally/emotionally competent, and intent is marriage.... it is indeed a relationship....., even though the factual circumstances correctly identify it as an affair.... in other words, the label fails to completely identify the nature of the behaviour, sometimes it is both. There is nothing inherently wrong with falling in love outside of a marriage, our emotions and psychology evolved long before the societal practice of marriage appeared. It is these drives that govern us, not a piece of paper. Affairs are inevitable, an essential check and balance on emotional survival/bondage (which is the point the harley's are making when they say anyone is capable of an affair). If (as the BS lament) marriage were an absolute (you cannot leave ever, and cannot have EA/PA...maybe like old days they execute you), and one should just recognize when problems occur and FIX them, then we would would approach marriage in a much different fashion. Far fewer people would proabably marry, and those who do would do a much much better job of mate selection. Because marriage is absurdly easy to enter into, and cause we do so with very little psychological profiling of ourselves and our mates, affairs are inevitable. 1st marriages have become essentially the training ground for marital education. I doubt we (as a species) would ever make marriage an absolute, the psychological stakes are too high, so affairs will always be a part of marriage, and will many times indeed be a realationship, every bit as valid and important as a marital relationship. IMO one of the difficulties BS may have sometimes in their effort to understand and or reconcille, is that they underestimate the seriousness of the affair in a relationship sense. In some cases you are not trying to clear the fog, or fix someone, you are in direct compeitition just like you were dating. This requires a different mindset and approach, something it is interesting to see the harley's clearly understand, and is why they are so adamant about plan A, and no LB's.<P>But let me ask the question in reverse. What makes a marriage a relationship...... a piece of paper? Put on the mask, your best clothes, behave yourself, and get someone to the alter......and voila, a marital relationship? I don't think so. All relationships depend on intent, and behaviour. There are millions of marriages out there that are not relationships either. IMO rather than be obsessed with labels (oh look.....there goes that dirty rotten affair person....... oh look, that couple is so wonderful, been married for 40 years, gee I wonder why they have so little to do with each other, and hardly ever smile at their spouse)...... we would be better served by keeping us all accountable for our relationship behaviour, and when it is unacceptable, be compelled (somehow, maybe the relationship police) to deal with it. Hey, I got an idea, either party in a marriage can invoke mandatory counselling with the harley's, the reward is marital harmony, the risk is your spouse can freely divorce (after appropriate time) no hassle. If one won't participate, you ummmm...... have seperation (if requester wants), the recalcitrant spouse has ankle bracelet, is monitored 24 hrs a day (no other relationships allowed), and after appropriate time can be divorced, and they still have to wear bracelet for say ummm...... 5 years. <P>As for this ws, I accept the label as representative of the circumstances. I do not accept it as very useful re my psychological state. I wish I had perfect knowledge re human behaviour (and mine), and could have seen this as a place I would be. I fully agree with the notion that marriages should be dealt with first, but I also understand that is an impossible ideal re humans, we just don't function that way. As Dr. Phil, and the psychological community in general acknowledge, many of us are married, but living emotionally/psychologically and often physically detached from our spouses, but are still married due to inertia, misguided notions of vows, or simple expediency, but certainly not as a intimate life-partner. Such circumstances will and do lead to emotional attachments outside the marriage, it is simply what people do, most of us want to have "someone" to love and be loved back by....ie a relationship. <P>Knowing now much more now about marriage, and relationships, I would have proceeded differently in my life, that is what growth is about.......but growth comes from experience, and neither I or my wife (or many of you) would have an opportunity to achieve a true marital bonding without growth experiences. That is why folks say affairs are useful....... it is not that they should be sought, or are worthy as a choice, they are simply an inevitable part of the human experience and as such can be used productively, as can anything we experience, the choice is ours. So in that sense I have no regrets......I am distressed over my wife's unhappiness, not to thrilled with my own depressed feelings in this train wreck, and very miserable about all the turmoil the ow is also dealing with... but I cannot project how I should have acted in the past, based on knowledge I have now (that is nonsensical and useless). My intentions for the ow were honorable, my emotional estrangement from my wife was legitimate, and I did ask her for a divorce as soon as my emotions crossed the line, I was not going to try and maintain 2 relationships, I made a choice. Was I mistaken? Well, we ws (and bs and every other human) don't think so of course, but I acknowledge this is a very confusing place for even we analytical types, so I willingly (more or less) subject myself to scrutiny (and counselling with harley's), and take no precipitious actions (since my wife declined the offer of divorce).<P>As to when does an affair become a relationship? Well if we define male/female relationships as leading to marriage (and not just a fun and games lark), then it becomes a relationship when one is willing to consider marriage with the op, just like any other "relationship". If one will not marry the op, and continues the affair (secretly I presume), then I would say that is the despicable behaviour we like to assign to the label. Unfortuneately there is no "test" for this, so for the intial period of people forming emotional attachments it can be either an affair or a relationship, which is why I presume the Harleys's promote the concepts of affair proofing. By blocking the discovery period, a relationship will never develop. Now if they would just make all this training, and testimonial stuff mandatory, before dating, and periodic refreshers while dating, we probably could darn near eliminate affairs that are relationships.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 22, 2001).]

double post, I deleted it.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 22, 2001).]

I am the wife of Sad_n_lonely. You think he is snl, what about the BS, I am sooo lonely. H does not tell everything right. H started connections with OW in June of 2000. So their affair has lasted this long. H became intimately involved with OW back in December of 2000 or before. Yes, he said divorce as he was taking me to the airport in another state where we were visiting his dad. It came about I knew he was intimately involved with her back in December. He got his own cell phone, got a p.o.box for bills to be sent and their own personal gifts & cards being sent. Got his own safedeposit box for personal items from OW and the intimate e-mail copies to be stored. Needless to say, while visiting his dad he was so cold to me and basically ignored me. So I asked him on the way to the airport if he wanted a divorce. Yes H and OW talked about dating and marriage. The OW is committed to her husband and is staying in her marriage and working on her marriage. But you know, she is still talking to my H. I don't understand H statement above, "nothing inherently wrong with falling in love outside of marriage". Boy you want to talk about hurt. This hurts so bad H! Maybe you will see H that this hurts me so bad! I married you and have never ever strayed from you. Even if the marriage was not good. I have always been committed to you, I still love you with all my heart. I would never of had an affair, I have morals. I am a christian, and I thought you were a christian too! As far as H getting counseling with the Harleys, he is not to this day. He was suppose to make the big commitment and give up the OW. But he broke the promise within 4 hours. So Jennifer told him she doesn't want to talk to him until he has made the committment to not talk to OW. I know he talks to her (voice mail and verbally). What hurts also, is the lies. He said he wasn't verbally talking to her just voice mail. I am not stupid. I can't even leave him a voice mail on the cell. But she can - sure! Why do the WS have to lie so much. Like tonight, he didn't get home till around 9pm. Sure he was working late, I didn't ask, just got ready for bed. He comes home and first thing he does is go to the computer to check the posts. His first love is OW, the computer is his 2nd love. It would be nice to be one of the top 2 in his love lines. Yes H, I am hurting today! From your wife.