I would like to tell my whole story to former WS's, but I don't want to do it on this site because my W may stumble across it. <P>Any former WS's who are willing to correspond with me via email, please let me know and I will post my address.<P>sad dad

I'm sorry but as a former WS I don't feel that individual e-mail with someone else is appropriate, I won't do it!! I think you need to talk here openly, and question your reason's for secrecy. JMHO

I agree with this. I'm a (xWS) myself. So my correspondence is limited off the boards to very few people. This is a joint "Email" box we have. So I feel secure as she feels secure in knowing any help off the boards is just that. <P>I'm all to aware of my past actions, and as a result the problems that followed. So... Sorry to say. I will stick to just the few people I am comfortable with. Knowing or talking to off the boards. I wish and want to help everyone here as best as I can without opening a door of trouble. For anyone. As I realize my help is just that off the boards, someone else may become "Attached" to me, and thats not something I want either.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 22, 2001).]

sad dad - I'm not a WS, so I can't provide that perspective except by regurgitating what I've learned from communicating openly on this site.<P>I sympathize with your initial caution about revealing your story for your wife to detect, but I encourage you to take advantage of that to your benefit. I'd give anything for my wife to browse around here. If you're honest, what have you to lose?<P>WAT

It isn't that hard to change the relevant details that would reveal, there are only so many variations (and not that many), I am sure your "story" has been told often, so just go for it. Plus you will be better served by a wide range of responses here.

To all who responded,<P>I understand and appreciate your concerns. I didn't look <BR>at it from that point of view. <P>I have my story on a MSword file. Is there any way to attach it or download it here, or do I have to re-type it (it's quite long)? I'm a novice at this stuff.<P>sad dad

Sad Dad,<P>Just copy your story from your document and paste it in a post.<P>K/LostNco/DSN<BR>[H]'s wife

stilldreamin,<P>My reason for secrecy is that there are some things I just can't let my W know that I know yet. Once I post my story here, I think you'll understand. I didn't mean to offend anyone.<P>sad dad

knewjie, <P>How do you do that? <P>sad dad

Open up post window<BR>Key in username and password<BR>Open up word document<BR>highlight text<BR> go to start of text<BR> hold down left mouse button<BR> go to end of text while holding down button<BR>hit "c" key while holding down cntl key<BR>go to MB window <BR> either click in window with left mouse button<BR> or hold down alt key and hit tab until MB window is displayed<BR>point in text window - click with left mouse button<BR>hold down cntl key and hit "v"<P>pasting is done - send message

Thanks engineer_bob, that was easy.<P>My story (very long):<P>Back in November, my W told me she wasn't happy. Mostly because of my temper (angry outburst), my criticism of her and my need to always be right. All of these things were true. After realizing how much I had hurt my W, I was able to change my behavior, and the issues have not been a problem since.<P>Things between us got progressively worse after that. W became completely detached emotionally and told me she was no longer in love with me. In January, nothing had improved and I had a feeling in my gut that I was missing something. I began looking through my W's purse and found a guy's # on her cellphone. She caught me looking and I asked her who he was. She said a friend from work that she talks to about us. A few days later, her cellphone bill came and I found a couple of dozen calls to him (at times when she would be alone) and to her voicemail at work. She found out I was looking over her bill and got pissed off. I was so overwhelmed with guilt that I let it go. <P>In March, things were even worse, and she asked for a separation. I agreed to leave for a month. The Thursday before I left, she began acting suspiciously. She and I were supposed to go to bowling on Saturday night. I had arranged for my nephew to watch our daughter at our house. She called me at work and suggested he watch her at my sister's (where I would be staying). I told her I didn't think that was a good idea. I thought the situation would be difficult enough on our daughter and she may be more comfortable in her own house. She suggested it again that night and I told her the same thing. The next day (Friday) she called me at work and said she needed my nephew to watch her at my sister's because she had plans early Sunday morning. I said OK, but I knew something was up.<P>That Saturday night after bowling my W said she was going home. I waited a few minutes and drove past the house to see if her car was in the garage. It wasn't. She didn't get home until 3 hours later. A couple days later, I stopped home to pick something up and checked the caller ID on a phone we don't use very often. There were 3 calls from OM on Sunday. <P>I obviously knew something was going on, so I bought a telephone recorder and started monitoring her calls. To do this, I had to change the billing address of one of our credit cards to my work. She got a notice in the mail about this several days later and called me about it. I told her that I did it in case I needed to buy something while I was at my sister's. She had the checkbook and access to cash.<P>Over a 3 week period of listening, I heard the following:<P>she wanted a divorce, was seeking full custody of our daughter<P>she was going to Florida on business, planned to go down early for the weekend and asked OM to join her<BR>(a mutual friend of ours named Gina was meeting her down there too, but this was after she asked OM)<P>he spent the Saturday in her hotel room when she was in Florida (Ginawas in the room too); she woke up Sunday morning at 6:00 and went back to OM's hotel, didn't get back until after 10:00; I called her room while she was gone and Gina said she went downstairs for coffee<P>she told a friend that she would have worked harder on our marriage if she wasn't so attracted to OM, she hasn't had feelings for me like she has for OM in over a year, the last 6 months we were trying to have a baby she had to be drunk to sleep with me<P>she told OM she was in love with him<P>During this month away, I read a several books about affairs and spent hours on websites like MB, divorcebusting.com and infidelity.com . I met some online named Greg who went through a similar situation a year ago with his W. He has been coaching/counseling me ever since.<P>Here are some other things I know. My W discontinued the itemized portion of her cellphone bill in February (W knows I know this). I have itemized home phone records from March/April that show 99 calls to W's voicemail (W doesn't know this).<P>I returned home at end of April and confronted W on a Saturday night. I was very calm and composed. I told her I knew about her relationship with OM, I knew he was in Florida with her and I knew she was at his hotel when I called. She denied he was there. I repeated that I knew he was. Eventually she admitted he was there, but said he was there on business. She kept asking how I knew, but I wouldn't tell her. I said it doesn't matter and that if she wasn't going to be honest with me we had nothing to talk about. She kept telling me they were just friends, so I said I don't want to talk about it and left. The next few days were much of the same. I told her that I knew she didn't go home the night of bowling. She said she was upset about us and needed someone to talk to, so she called OM, all spur of the moment. It was bull****. She wanted our daughter out of the house so she could meet him. She kept lying, so I wouldn't talk about it. She apologized for not telling me that he would be in Florida. She told me that OM wanted to apologize to me for any misunderstanding and that he wouldn't talk to her outside of work anymore (like that made a difference to me). <P>About a week later she asked me for a divorce. I said that I would like to work on our marriage, but understood that she had to do what she had to do. A couple of days later she asked me how to get online. I gave her my work screen name and password. I knew she might find some emails to Greg, and I was right. There were 2 emails that I didn't delete mentioning the recorder and that I might go talk to her parents. The following day she went and talked to her parents, and told them about her "friend". She didn't mention anything to me for three days. She needed time to come up with a story. She said she knew about the recorder ever since she got the letter from the credit card company and the things I heard were just part of her plan to set me up for spying on her. What a load of crap. I started using the recorder several days before she got the letter. She was pissed off and again asked for a divorce. Again I said that's not what I want to do. She said if I think she's having an affair why would I want to stay married to her. I said because I love you.<P>That was 6 weeks ago. She hasn't taken any action regarding the divorce. A few days ago we talked some more and she reiterated that she wants a divorce, and wants me to help her get started. I won't contest a divorce or make it more difficult on either of us than it has to be, but I think she expects me to go with her to a lawyers office, sit down and start drawing up the papers. I won't do that. It goes against what I believe and isn't what I want. If she wants it, she'll have to do it herself.<P>The questions I have for you former WS's are:<P>1. could she really think I believe they are just friends?<P>2. could she really think I believe she knew I was taping her?<P>3. did you rip your spouse apart to friends and family to justify what you were doing?<P>4. is there any use telling her all that I know, that I don't believe her and how hurt and betrayed I feel, or will it not matter to her at this point?<P>5. did you tell your spouses you weren't in love with them anymore?<P>6. why do you think she hasn't filed?<BR>7. does she know what she's doing is wrong?<P>I'm thinking of asking her to leave. She may need the chance to pursue this relationship, and hopefully it will fall flat on it's face, before she gets out of the "fog".<P>Please let me know your thoughts or opinions.<BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR>sad dad<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited June 28, 2001).]

Thanks Engineer_Bob <P>K/LostNco/DSN<BR>[H]'s wife

1. could she really think I believe they are just friends?<BR>~~Probably not, but she will do everything to protect that illusion and have to admit to you what she did<P>2. could she really think I believe she knew I was taping her?<BR>~~No, but she's caught, what else can she do but deny it or admit she knew it.<P>3. did you rip your spouse apart to friends and family to justify what you were doing?<BR>~~No not really, but I did lay "groundwork" of how things were not good, problems we had etc. Then again...very few people knew about it til it was almost over.<P>4. is there any use telling her all that I know, that I don't believe her and how hurt and betrayed I feel, or will it not matter to her at this point?<BR>~~It may matter to her, but you will more then likely not get the reaction you desire (remorse/sadness). I would hold your cards close, she doesn't need to know all you know.<P>5. did you tell your spouses you weren't in love with them anymore?<BR>~~More times then I care to remember, then it was the "I love you but I'm not in love with you"<P>6. why do you think she hasn't filed?<BR>~~She's not sure of what she wants, she's not sure of OM, she doesn't want to lose you, your family, or face the truth of throwing her marriage away for an affair.<P>7. does she know what she's doing is wrong?<BR>~~Oh yes, 1000 yes, but will it stop her? Not until she wants to.<P>Cat<P>

sad dad - I'm glad you told your story. I'm not a WS, but I could have answered your questions - she's following the WS script perfectly. Cat's answers to the specific questions were good.<P>Your story is so similar to everyone else's that she'll not recognize it if you go back and edit out the names, unless you made them up which is OK. On the other hand, she may accuse you of writing someone else's post for the same reason - they're all pretty much the same, right down to the dialog.<P>Anyway, this is salvagable. Get smart on the MB principles and keep asking questions.<P>WAT

<B><BR>1. could she really think I believe they are just friends?<BR></B><P>Yes... When in doubt lie. Thats rule number one of (WS) on the run. "Thats my story and I'm sticking to it"<P><B><BR>2. could she really think I believe she knew I was taping her?<BR></B><P>Yes... Give you a sense of doubt. <BR>Fog reality: "One step ahead of the enemy." Reality: "Two steps behind"<BR>See first responce...<P><B><BR>3. did you rip your spouse apart to friends and family to justify what you were doing?<BR></B><P>Yes, sadly I did some of those things. They helped some. <BR>(Sorry Love you ((((Knewjie)))), Always have.. Always will) I was aweful <P><B><BR>4. is there any use telling her all that I know, that I don't believe her and how hurt and betrayed I feel, or will it not matter to her at this point?<BR></B><P>Expressing your pain, I believe helps in clearing the fog. As she may start to realize and understand the damage.<P><B><BR>5. did you tell your spouses you weren't in love with them anymore?<BR></B><P>Yep.. Used that very line often.<P><B><BR>6. why do you think she hasn't filed?<BR></B><P>Because we are unsure that we are making the right choices. I suspect that she won't file. I too told my wife to expect papers, and that I was going to file for divorce a lot. I never got off my [censored] to do it, because I just couldn't I knew it was a mistake. So I prevented myself from reaching that level.<P><B><BR>7. does she know what she's doing is wrong?<BR></B><P>Yes and no. She's feeling guilt I'm sure. It may be overridden at times with her telling herself over and over that she's right. You were a horrible person in the past, and so on. Self-justification... However theres that sign of doubt, or uncertainty and guilt that always slaps you around a bit. Comes often at times.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 22, 2001).]

Ditto on what the others said.<P>Incidently, don't feel too bad about the snooping you did. I think we all are guilty of it to some extent. I believe Dr. Harley has even stated somewhere in one of his articles that he is in favor of it. I actually figured out my wife's online password (she was blatant enough to inform me of her and the OP's "anniversary date") and have made several copies of some pretty sickening e-mail. I'm not sure if they ever would be admissable in any court proceedings. But that's not really what I want them for. They would make it pretty hard for family to back her if she opted for divorce. I would only use them as a last resort.

Yea, Yea, Yea - what Always Hopeful said. All snooping is good and necessary. You have no choice when you know they're not being honest.<P>Repeat after me: snooping is not pooping, it's scooping<P>WAT

(((sad dad))) no offense taken.....I saw that you were a new poster.....I don't post often....<P>to answer your questions......<P>1. are they just friends?? no, but deep in her mind she may want to believe that. Needs to feel special. Right now, it still seems that no matter what my husband does, it does not make me **feel special**. I now no longer try to live my life based on emotions, cuz I found out that just gets you into trouble. For a while the OM made me **feel special**, that was back when I was living for emotions.<P>2. she knows you are getting your information from somewhere. Whether or not she thinks you are taping her, I don't know. But she is probably nervous now when she talks or sees the OM, cuz somehow you're gonna find out what's going on.<P>3. Not rip apart per se. But there are friends and family that don't like him, but some of them didn't like him before my affair. I really didn't start telling them of things he has done until after my affair. He has scared me in the past, and I have told just a couple of friends, and they worry about me. But I have not told everyone, just a few very close friends and my sister, and my sister doesn't know everything.<P>4. can't answer that one for you, I am not your wife. I do know that after a while I became very numb to my husband's pain. (gosh that sounds awful, but it is the truth)<P>5. As Caterpillar said, "I love you but am not in love with you."<P>6. I did file. Filed a restraining order and everything. I chose to completely cut off all contact with OM. It was six months before I dropped the proceedings and that was because of some deception on my husbands part. In my mind tho when I dropped the proceedings I felt that I would re-file at some time. There are still times when I don't think we will make it. Other times I have hope.<P>7. Yes, I knew what I was doing was wrong. It was the most selfish act I have ever done. It was done all for me. I did not think of anyone else, or the ripple effect it would have of everyone I know, and my future, and how everything in my future would in some way be affected by what I did. If I could go back in time I would not do it again. <P>

Thanks to all of you for your honesty and support. For the most part, I already knew the answers to my questions, but I wanted reassurance for those who have been there.<P>In my case, my W's friends and family think the world of me.<BR>I guess that's why she needed to rip my apart to them. Her family is angry that she is even considering divorcing me.<P>To "stilldreamin", I have a couple of questions for you that I'll understand if you choose not answer. You said at times you're not sure if you'll make it. Is that because you and your H haven't been able to make the changes necessary (i.e. meeting EN's, changing behaviors, etc.) or is it due to lingering resentment on his part?<P>I'm still not sure if I should tell her how hurt and betrayed I feel. Like I said earlier, ever since I confronted her, I've maintained a calm, composed demeanor, almost stoic. Maybe she needs to see how much pain I'm in.<BR>Will it give her a "dose" of reality or is she too numb for it too matter? I don't know the answer to that question.<P>I really do understand how and why this happened, and I know it could have happened to any of us. People who have affairs are no less moral or lacking in character than those of us who haven't. My W is a good person making bad and selfish decisions. As far as divorce goes, I won't help her with that. She'll have to take those steps on her own and deal with the guilt that goes with it on her own. Helping her would be giving up on her and my daughter, and I won't do that. I love them both too much.<P>sad dad

Ask away, I will try and answer as honestly as possible. <P>About us making it. I am trying. My husband and I both want this marriage to work. There are times though when he brings up the past, not just the affair(which ended 3 years ago), but many things even from 20 years ago!! Things that I can't even remember!!! <P>He also doesn't like me to have contact with female friends that I have known before they were even married, and have eventually divorced. At times it seems as though he does not want me to have any friends. He does not like it when I talk to my sister. I lost my mother in Sep of 2000, and my sister talk about her estate, and he gets upset. He has never liked her, and it is worse now. So it gets hard for me to want to stay in a situation like this.<P>He will see something on TV or hear something on the radio, stew about it all day, and I get **lectured** that evening. I may not **smile** in the right way, or listen as attentively as he thinks I should, so he says that I **have an attitude**. He is always condemning women, they are responsible for all sin in the world you know (according to him), and so on and so on. <P>It gets hard to watch a TV show with him, because I may get a **lecture**. Heaven forbid if I giggle at something he deems wrong!! I could go on. Things are good right at the moment, but aside from online games, this message board and one other, I don't have much contact with the outside world. And that is the way he likes it, so things are good.<P>I appreciate and understand your not wanting to help with the divorce. You might want to go ahead and tell her how you feel though. How she responds will be her responsibility. Telling her how you feel is yours. It would be awful if things progressed and sometime later you heard her say, "But I never realized how upset you were. If I had only known........" That truly would make you a sad dad.<P>You may not be able to change things by telling her, but at least you will not wonder, would things have been different if I had told her?? <P>