stilldreamin,<P>I appreciate your candor and my best wishes to both of you.<P>You are right, she should know how I feel. Whether or not she cares is up to her. Thanks!<P>sad dad

How long have you been married, and do you have children? I am a ws(H), and have posted quite a bit about stuff from my viewpoint, you don't know me, so let me say I view A as simply another facet of human relationships (and an inherent, inevitable consequence of our cultural marriage paradigm), it is not that they happen that is important, but why they do, and then what to do about it. I think you understand that from the post you made later on. IMO the immediate focus on let's fix the ws, and or the bs (as needed) and that the marriage must survive at all costs is backwards. The people are what are important, not the picture (marriage). So the first thing that needs to be done is assess whether the marital relationship between those 2 people should exist at all.<P><BR>1. could she really think I believe they are just friends?<P>Yes, she could, and she may mean it. Just cause we think the marriage is not working for both does not mean we hate or desire our spouse to be hurt or disappear. But we do recognize the nature of strong emotions and that it is hard for the BS to deal with that sentiment. It all depends on the people. There are marriages IMO where the parties don't like each other even though married, it is unlikely they would be friends (for example). My advice is not to tell her how much you would hate/despise her etc. for leaveing you, unless you want to help her leave of course. My feeling when being told that is that I was right, I am not particularly valued, so I should leave. Be careful what you say to a ws, we may be in a fog, but we are listening. On the other hand, if you really would not like your W as an x, you should be honest about it, and contemplate why you want to be married to her. IMO if you love somebody, you do so whether they leave you or not, otherwise you only love them for what they do for you (possess them in other words...yuck).<P>2. could she really think I believe she knew I was taping her?<P>No idea, but probably not if it was really revealing. She may have "thought" about the possibility though. But as others say, ws do lie, mostly to avoid conflict, not cause they are liars.<P>3. did you rip your spouse apart to friends and family to justify what you were doing?<P>absolutely not. But I think it is common. Myself, I simply am looking for the truth about whether my marriage is healthy for us BOTH, or not.<P>4. is there any use telling her all that I know, that I don't believe her and how hurt and betrayed I feel, or will it not matter to her at this point?<P>I think it is ok to tell her the truth about your feelings (assuming you know the truth about you, oftentimes IMO BS are in a fog themselves). But don't do it in a guilty way, no fair saying what she did to you, that is manipulative, and you will not like the violent reaction you will proably get. <P>5. did you tell your spouses you weren't in love with them anymore?<P>yes, we all do, cause it is true (well... for the ethical ws, you do have sex addicts too, who knows what they are thinking).<P>6. why do you think she hasn't filed?<P>She isn't sure yet about a lot of things.<P>7. does she know what she's doing is wrong?<P>Yes and no. The feelings are not wrong, she may not love you, and acted on it, that is normal human behaviour, and really is not a right/wrong issue, it is what you do with it that counts. But if she has any ethics at all, she knows she cannot maintain 2 relationships indefinitely that that is wrong, also for any ethical person IMO, there is an expectation of fairplay. When the BS finds out they inevitably lament they didn't know how bad it was (talk about fog), and that they want another chance (know that the 2x4 to the head has got their attention, and motivated them). Personally I don't think any human being "owes" another anything, for any reason, people are not property or business contracts, I prefer all behaviour be willing. But I do think most ethical people have a sense of fairplay, and a good case can be made for giving a BS a last chance, especially given how confusing these kinds of emotions are, for both BS and WS. SO IMO, the best approach to a ws is to validate their feelings (don't belittle them), but ask based on history of marriage and or kids, that they agree to a good faith effort to sort things out, and if they feel the same will not object to divorce. That is essentially what MB is all about, gaing an opportunity to see if the marriage is salvageable, not all are, or should be.<P>.,....I'm thinking of asking her to leave. She may need the chance to pursue this relationship, and hopefully it will fall flat on it's face, before she gets out of the "fog".<P>snl...That would be a mistake. It just tells her she is right. Are you really sure you want the marriage to continue? Have you been honest with yourself? IMO sometimes BS just won't face the reality and react predictably when losing something, an instinctive holding on, whether the marriage is nurturing or not to both. This is not just about you, it is about her too, you owned up to some pretty bad behaviour, that is to your credit, but making a few changes over a short period of time does not mean you have changed, and she may not believe you have. Nor may you be able to sustain it. WS that are trying to leave controllers are very determined, you have a lot of work ahead of you to regain her trust. I suggest you start by not doing anything controlling now........ like spying on her, confronting her, telling her she can leave......personally from your posts (and I could be wrong, so plz forgive me) I still see a controller. Plan A was tailor made for controllers, it is so foreign to your behaviour that if you do it, and sustain it for a long time, you may regain her trust. Read this site, and think long and hard about you, the ws is watching, focus on (fixing) her, and you are done, kiss her goodbye.<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 23, 2001).]

how true sad_n_lonely...if you focus on fixing your WS you will just run her off. I guess that is why I question staying, my husband has attacked me and everyone I love in an attempt to figure out what is wrong with me, so I can be **fixed**. It gets old, and I know that many people would have left a long time ago. <P>Communication is such a fragile thing, sad dad. So be very careful how you present your feelings to your wife. Use "I feel_______, when you do______". Not, "You always_______". You statements tend to put anyone on the defensive, especially someone who feels they have something to defend.<P>let us know how things go......

snl & stilldreamin,<P>We have been married 5 years and have a daughter. I have been a "controller" over the years, and I realize how that has contributed to our problems. I have done alot of soul searching over the last 7 months and discovered alot of things about myself I didn't like and have done what I can to change them. I know that I have changed by the way I have reacted to this whole situation. I was a person who's emotions dictated my behavior. I now sit back and reflect on things before I take action. I have a patience that I never had before. This situation, as painful as it has been, has allowed me to grow as a person, and I have my W to thank for that, regardless of what happens.<P>I recently wrote my W a letter, basically just looking back on the things I've said and done over the years that have contributed to our problems. I tried to imagine how I must have made her feel and I apologized for the pain I've caused her. I made no mention of the OM, because he had nothing to do with the problems. I did not blame her for anything (not that she isn't to blame for some things) and I did not talk about things I'll do differently if we have another chance. It was just about me taking responsibility for what I've done. I did not talk about now or the future.<P>A few days ago, we talked about the letter. I asked her about things that I said and did and wanted to know how they made her feel. She was candid about her feelings and it helped me gain a better understanding of what happened. <P>The reason I addressed this thread "help needed from former WS's" is because I want to understand things better from your perspective. I already know the BS's perspective.<P>I realize my W is not my "project" to fix. I just want to understand what she's going through.<P>I'm not sure how I will handle it when I tell her how I feel. I think she should know because not talking about our feelings has been one of our problems. Maybe I won't ask her to leave. I'll have to think about it for a while before I do anything.<P>sad dad<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited June 23, 2001).]

just bumping up

-