I have been out of the house for about a month now( Because she askd me to leave). I have been to counseling on 2 sessions. Wife will not join me. I have bought SAA and His needs Her Needs. I am wanting to work on our marriage but I am not for sure if she does. How long should I wait to ask her if she is willing to work on our Marriage? I am thinking another 2 weeks.. AM I just wasting my time if she wont go to counseling?<P>Other post here <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/001562.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/001562.html</A> <p>[This message has been edited by MarkC (edited June 22, 2001).]

No you are not wasting your time. Have you read all the information on this site about Plan A, ENs, LBs, etc? If not, go to Just Found Out, and find the link by NSR welcoming new members.<P>You have to expect your wife's lack of interest in working it out right now. She is hurting bad, and I know you are too. But this will take time. All you can do is be your best, let her know that you love her and that you will wait for her to give you the chance to show her your love and to help her find happiness. Do a really good Plan A. It isn't easy if you aren't living there, but you can still do it.<P>I would not set a time, such as 2 weeks. This can take a long time, and it will be very hard. You've just got to hang in there and continue going to counselling if that is helping you. Let her see changes in you over time, and continue to try and show her your love, in whatever ways you can.<P>Again, don't try to force this too quick, because that won't work. It is patience, time, and consistency that you have to practise, and Plan A.<P>Ask more questions or vent to us here. We know what you are going through. Take care.<P>Oh, one other thing. If you can do it, a session with Steve Harley is highly recommended. He can help you get a good plan going.<p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited June 22, 2001).]

Thanks rick37. It is just driving me crazy not being with her and our children everyday. she has been Wonderful in letting me see them and spend time with them. I have asked her to join me in counseling but refuses. says that she is not ready. Yes it is helping me cope with the situation but I feel if we aint doing it together than we wont be able reconcile and work on plan A. She is a SAHM and I am still paying all the bills. Even though that is not a big issue, it is I just can't afford to live somewhere else right now.

I think that you should move back into your home immediately. Although you are still paying the bills legally it can be argued that you have abandoned your children and wife by moving out. I would contact a lawyer immediately to be aware of your rights. If your wife wishes to separate then she should be the one to leave. You are on dangerous grounds leaving your home. An opposing lawyer will attack you for this. Good Luck.

Can she really do that?? Even though I have been going out to the house 2/3 times a week to see them and to do stuff around the house? She is the one that asked If I would leave. I agreed so that she could have some time for herself. <BR>

MarkC<BR>I repeat please contact a lawyer immediately just to find out the ramifications of moving out of your home. I am not a lawyer but yes she could claim abandonment even if she requested it. The courts take a very dim view of a man who leaves him home and children even if it at the request of your wife. If she needs time to think then let her move.<BR>Again please contact a lawyer and find out what this means in your state. If this should ever head toward divorce everything will be thrown back in your face.

MarkC,<P>Yes she can do that. I've known people it has happened to. See a lawyer and move back into your home. <P>It almost happened to me in 1993 when I tried to file for divorce against my physically abusive husband. I left with our son. The Judge saw it as me abonding my husband. Sh made me return our son to the family home. His father is abusive so there was no way I was going to leave a 3 year old with an abusive man. I moved back in and withdrew the divorce papers. It's a long story from there but I finally got the divorce in 1997 and have my son and my home.<P>My suggestion is that you do not warn her ahead of time that you are moving back in because she can use the time to get an order keeping you out because you have already abandoned them. You say that you are over there a lot visiting. Well next time just stay. And then over the next few days move your stuff back in.<P>Be prepared because she will probably be angry when you move back. Just tell her it's your home and you don't have anywhere else to live. And you want to work on our marriage.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Thanks for your responce Zorweb. I don't think that she would do that. and I don't want to get anything stired up. But I do wnat us to work on our marriage. I know that I have been very wrong for doing what I did. It just hurts so much when I leave after being their. I want to hold her so bad and tell her that WE can recover and that I will do everything possible to make her and the children happy. I know that she needs time, but being without them is killing me. I don't know what else to do. I didn't take much stuff so packing back up aint much. can she get a restraining order to keep me out of the house? I will be going over there again tomorrow to take care of the yard. should I just stay???? We get along great when we are together, but like last saturday she spent all day at her mothers and called me about fathers day and was very very hatefull.<BR>When she is alone with the kids it seems that she is in a better mood to talk to me. <P>Thanks<P>[This message has been edited by MarkC (edited June 23, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by MarkC (edited June 23, 2001).]

I can understand why your wife asked you to move out. I know that I have told my husband (the new one) that if he has another affair we are through. So I understand her. She forgave and once. Yet you do seem very sincere in your wanting to work on your marriage and in your love for your wife. And I do believe very strongly in redemption. <P>By the way, my husband posts on this forum too. His name here is SeenTheLight. Link to my short story <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000730.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000730.html</A> <P>I still think that if you want to work on your marriage you need to move back into your home. As long as you are away this will be very hard to do and there is the problem of your looking like you abandoned your family. In your circumstances you will have to be very careful though because you have already violated your wife’s trust. It would be very hard for her to get a restraining order to keep you out of the house as long as you do not resort to any violence and/or threats. It is legally still your home so you can move back in when you want to … legally. <P>I did not tell anyone about my husband’s affairs because I know that my family and friends would not have given me good counsel. They would have told me to leave him, period. I wanted to make my decision without biased input. My bet is that your wife is getting the same kind of counsel from her mother. Have you asked your wife to read the SAA book yet? I think that might be a starting point. You say that you are in counseling right now. It might be useful for you to also have some appointments with the MB staff. They do phone counseling. Actually they call it coaching. If you can convince your wife to do this with you, the MB staff will be able to suggest the things you need to do to prove to your wife that you will never do this again.<P>Your going to counseling is not a waste of time even if your wife will not go right now. If my husband did what you did, went to two sessions and quit I’d take that as proof that he was just playing a game with me. The old, I’ll do anything and apologize until she forgives me. Then go back to my old ways. You need to be in counseling to work on yourself even if your wife will never take you back.<P>MB talks about a policy of radical honesty. With this concept a spouse has no privacy from the other. My husband and I have adapted that policy. It’s allowed me to feel safe. It is also a deterrent to continued affairs because there is no possibility for any secrets. For example, we have installed a monitoring program (www.iopus.com) on all of our computers. We are software/web developers so we have 6 of them and it’s on all computers. My husband has promised to never use chat again except with me when he travels and his mother (she’s deaf), sisters and best male friend. If he ever breaks the promise I’ll know immediately. He has to be accountable to me at all times. I need to be able to reach him by cell when he is not home. He shows me his hotel and phone bills from his travel. He has provided me with the passwords for all of him computers and email accounts. By doing these and other things he is showing me over time that he is willing to make the commitment to our marriage.<P>So think of the things that allowed you to get into your affair and keep it going. Those parts of your life must be made open to your wife. Actually all parts of your life must be.<P>I have a question for you relating to my own situation. I feel that my husband and I understand the combination of circumstances that led to him having the affairs. He tells me that he loved me through the entire time. That he really felt nothing more then casual friendship for the women. In some cases he almost seems to have contempt for them. From your experience, what is it in a person that would make them risk everything they love and want for such an affair? Even when their actions make them hate themselves afterwards they still do it again? Can you answer that? I’m trying to put that one piece into place. How does one cross the line in what looks like such a casual and easy manner?<P><BR>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<BR>That is a Hard question. In my situation I think what made me do it twice is that we did fix the problem the first time and just continue "living". Mostly because I was ashamed of myself and didn't want to discuss the situation. I know now that I was wrong. Now I want to discuss it with her and get it out so that we can fix our problems and not just ignore them. I have already gave her all my passwords to my email accounts. I do network security so I can't give her those passwords to the firewalls and such. I have asked her to read SAA and His needs Her Needs but she refuses. <P>Is their such a thing as pushing her to hard to fast. She told me the other day that if we ever get back together that it wont be anytime soon. Is this just a test to see If I really love her? I sometimes feel that she is just testing me, she will start asking me where I am and what have I been doing. <BR>before when I would leave the house she wouldn't let me hug her or give her a kiss. atleast now I she will let me hug her but she won't hug me back.<BR>she has asked me not to call as much but I can't stand not talking to her and our girls. I called her lastnight and told her goodnight and that I love her and her responce is uh huh.<BR>Thanks <BR>MarkC

MarkC,<P>RE: “Mostly because I was ashamed of myself and didn't want to discuss the situation. I know now that I was wrong.”<P>What I found in with my husband is that talking about it was THE most important thing. I think I drove the poor man nuts by talking till I was blue in the face every day for about 8 weeks. Between the MB material I read and my counselor I realized the importance of this. My counselor told me that part of the price one pays for having an affair is having to answer their spouses questions over and over until there is healing. She also told me that I had to tell him how angry I was at him and exactly how he hurt me. And I had to tell it to him as often as I needed to. I was always careful not to lovebust in the way I said these things, but I did them. Eventually my husband opened up to me and told me what I wanted to know. I did tell him that I do not want the ugly details.. things like how many times, what kind of sex they had, whose better in bed or not better in bed then I am, etc etc. I wanted to keep the mental images to a minimum. (I had a very wise person advise me early on to be very careful what type of info I asked for.) During those days my husband was both the source of my pain and my comfort. This wonder full man I am married to was finally able to transcend his own hurt, guilt, etc. to nurture me through this difficult time. I can say that I love him more today then I did the day before our d-day (March 22). We have grown very close because of this healing process we went through. We are now each other’s confidants in a way we never were before d-day. There is nothing we cannot talk about now, as we’ve talked about the most intimate and personal things imaginable. I am telling you this to reinforce your belief that you do need to talk about this.<P>“Mostly because I was ashamed of myself and didn't want to discuss the situation.” I presume you have told your wife about your feeling of shame and guilt. If you have not please do, she needs to hear how deep it is. Once I realized that about my husband I started to see him in a different light. I realized that he would be afraid to trust me because I might retaliate by turning the things he told me against him. I was struggling with building my trust in him. But I realized that he had to learn that he could trust me in this situation. <P>At this point your marital recovery is going to have to be totally up to you. My H took the lead with MB. He told me that he was the one who messed up our marriage so it is his responsibility to lead us in recovery. You know, if she will not read the SAA and His Needs/Her Needs books right now, then perhaps you could start plan A’ing her. You were right in giving her your passwords. I understand about the network security issues. It’s reality. But do the things you know you need to do to become totally open and honest with her. I am sure that you can guess most of her Ens. Start meeting them to the degree she will let you. Spend as much time with her right now as she will allow. A 5-minute increase daily will add up over time. It is good that she is letting you hug her.<P>RE: “Is their such a thing as pushing her to hard to fast.”<BR>Yes I believe there is. But since she is starting to let you hug her it sounds like she is softening. Go slowly and carefully. I may very well be a test to see if you really love her.. But if it were, I would bet that she is not testing you consciously. I can tell you that when I found out about my H’s affairs I felt that our entire relationship had been a fraud. I thought that he did not love me. I could not figure out why he had married me. What was he really after? Why would he marry me if he did not love me?<BR>RE: “I called her last night and told her goodnight and that I love her and her response is uh huh.”<BR>I remember that response. Yep.. I felt that way and said the same thing to my husband. For the first few weeks after d-day I did not believe he loved me. His words were empty to me. It was only after he had said them over and over. Only after he cried with me for the pain he’d caused that I started to realize that he was sincere. <BR>Mark, I don’t know if I’m helping you any here. You have a lot to make up to your wife. It is going to be very slow going.<BR>Have you written a love letter to your wife telling her how you feel, what you want, how remorseful you are, what you are willing to do to save your marriage, etc. etc? Love letters are one of the best ways to communicate the difficult things to our spouses. Many people on this web site post letters for input before giving them to their spouse. You might want to consider that.<P><BR>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<P>So are you suggesting that I wait till I move back in and give her more time or just move back in. I feel that if I move back in then I will be pushing her to fast.

I had a question I wanted to ask you before and forgot to ask. Do you have any clue as to why you even brought that videotape into your house? What I think is that anything less then throwing it out before you got home means that on some level you wanted your wife to see it. You must have been very angry with her to want to hurt her that badly. It's one thing for her to know that you had an affair. It's another to make her witness it. How did she find out about your first "fling" with the OW?<P>In retrospect it is very obvious to me that my H wanted to get "caught". I trusted him so implicitly that he had to just about rub my face in it before I started seeing all the clues. <P>RE: "I feel that if I move back in then I will be pushing her to fast."<P>You may be right on this one. I do not know your wife so I do not know how strongly she would react to your moving back in right now. I do believe that if you want to work on your marriage you do need to move back in as soon as you can. I'm brain storming here so I'm throwing out some ideas for you. In the end you will need to do what you feel will work best for you.<P>If you do not feel that it is good to move back in today. Then start increasing your time at the house. Start doing more there to help her with taking care of the house and your children. Take care of the yard, go grocery shopping for her, take care of the children so she can have a break. You could slowly move back in this way.<P>Another way to move back in but not look too pushy would be if your welcome were to ware out at your friend's. How long will your friend let you stay? Maybe your welcome should be over now.<P>Or if you feel like she wants you to prove your love to her. Then make a bold statement of moving back in. Tell her that she is the love of your life. That you did a terrible thing to her and want to spend the rest of your life making it up to her. Tell her that secondly you want your daughters to have the intact family they deserve. Tell her that you cannot in good conscience dump all of the responsibility of running a home and raising children on her. (But then you’d better bust your butt helping her around the house like you have never done before.) With this approach you could go back sleeping in a separate room from your wife to give her the distance she needs. <P>RE: "So are you suggesting that I wait till I move back in and give her more time or just move back in.”?<P>No I am not suggesting that you wait until you move back in. My suggestion is that you write that love letter ASAP. That you start doing as much as you can right now. If she will not let you near her, then start doing things to help her. I talk about that above. Start filling her love bank in every way she will let you. <P>How would she react if you were to ask her for one hour of her time? After you give her the love letter (I know I’m assuming a lot here by assuming you are going to take my advice on that but … ) then ask her to set aside just one hour to talk. Then tell her the rules are that this is her hour. She can yell, scream, cry, ask you questions, what ever she needs. And then you have to be man enough to handle whatever she throws at you. Do show emotion. If she moves you to tears cry. If she gets you angry, it’s ok to quietly state our angry but don’t act on it. Answer every question she has truthfully. OK if she asks you the most awful question… who was better in bed… she or the OW. Tell her that she was, that he love and depth of your relationship with her overpowers anything that is purely sexual in nature. Never Never ever tell her that the OW was. Hopefully she will never ask you that question.<P>Remember that you must always tell the truth. The validity of your word will be in question for the rest of your life. Even if you tell a lie to protect your wife’s feeling it is still a lie. In the end she will care more about that fact that you lied then she will about whatever the answer is to the question. A lie is just a lie. And liar cannot be trusted. <P>You are in a tough spot. I’m sure that you know now that you should have never moved out. But now that you have you need to find a way back that will not make your wife feel violated one more time. In the mean time do everything you can to work on yourself and your marriage. You wife is going to need to know what you are going to do to ensure her that this will never, ever happen again. Something has to change in you. Your marriage will never be perfect. If you do get back together with her you are in for a very rough 2 years or more. If you say that the reason you did it again as because you did not improve our marriage, then why will you not do it again when things are not perfect? Both you and your wife share responsibility for the state of your marriage leading up to your affair. But you alone bear the responsibility for your affair. Until you make a big change in yourself you will do this again. That is what your wife is afraid of. She does not feel safe with you for good reason.<P>I can only advise you based on my own experience. I know that when I’ve written you it’s been in the form of basically telling you what to do. That is not really my intent…. It is my style I guess and I don’t have the time to go back and rewrite. So please realize that I am telling you of my own experiences and how I see them playing into yours. In the end you will need to act according to your own heart and knowledge of your situation. <P>I would suggest that if at all possible you call the MB office for counseling on how to proceed here. They have years on experience and have seen it all. They have a very high success rate in saving marriages no matter whom terrible the transgressions. The phone number is under counseling on this web site. It is telephone counseling so it does not matter where you are located. When I called them I was told that they can usually get an appointment setup in 24 hours. At this point, as I’ve learned more about you and your situation I think you need their input.<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<BR>Thanks for you thoughts. well I spent most of the day with my Family (WAHOO) it really felt great being with them. we were able to talk a little this morning about the situation she said that she wasn't for sure if she wanted to work on the marriage, but then she said if we do we have to go to counseling. I strongly agreed with her. amd she asked me some stuff and I told her the truth about it. I told her that I didn't want to lie to her no more and the way I felt at times. But she got upset and told me to go outside with the girls. I did what she asked. they rode around on their four wheeler and I mowed the yard. Yes VERY big yard. 2.5 acres. then me and the girls took a long ride on mine. Then when we were done riding she suggested that WE ALL go out to eat and swimming, and that is what we did. we all had a great time. I gave her a card telling her how I want to work on the situation and that their is nothing that I can do about the past but I can change the future but I would need her help. It was time to go and I gave our girls a kiss and told them that I love them and to be good for mommy and my youngest said give mommy a kiss. I reached over to give her a kiss and she stuck out her check.. I gave her a big kiss on it and told her that I love her. Man that made my day. aint much but I think it is a start.<BR>I decided not to move in just yet. I beleive that a couple more weeks or so... I have changed and I am going to stay this way to. she knows that I have change and likes the way that I have changed but she is afraid that as soon as I get back in the house that I will be my old self again. But that is not going to happen. I have put my faith in God and he is going to guide me to be a Husband and Father.<P>MarkC

MarkC,<P>I am so happy for you and your wife. She is coming around because you are starting to be the husband she needs. <P>You know your situation better then anyone else. If you feel that it is better to not move back for a week or two more then it probably is. You can of course evaluate the situtation daily to see when it feels right.<P>I admit that when I first suggested that you move back in right now, I had not read your entire story. I still think that moving back as soon as you can is important but taking your wife's feelings into consideration and showing her respect is of upmost importance. There are still the legal considerations but they seem secondary right now to your winning her trust.<P>Please keep us posted. You know that I and the other people on MB are more then willing to be of support to you. <P>My prayers are with you and your family.<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Well I can do it hope for the best. It will be tough on her, and I want to be their for her to hold when she needs me. But all I can do now is wait and see what happens. <BR>

Today was a bad day for us. I was hoping and praying that yesterday I made some love points but I guess not. I went and seen her today and she said that it could 8 months, a year she don't know. I meet her at the store so she could bring me some stuff and we were departing I went to give her a kiss she went off. Said that I was causing LB by doing this. I told her that I can't keep living like this and she said that I should have though about this before, I told her I know and that I am sorry and to please forgive me. she said That I will just have to go out and get another job so I can afford to live, or we can just go to court and she'll get a job. I told her that I wanted to support her and the girls and I wanted her to stay at home if she wanted to. So I have been out looking for a PT job so she can stay at home right now. I know that it is my house to but I can't just kick the woman that I love and my children out. I feel that would just make things worse. I feel as if I am going to have to tell her that she is got two more weeks to decide if she wants this to work or we will just have to go to court. But then again I don't want to lose her. I am so confused.<P>She was suppose to call about counseling today. But I have a feeling that she didn't. The only counseling that she is getting right now is from her mother,which is all negatitive about me and men in general. This is what I was told be her uncle. Her mother also said that the only reason that I have been going for help and going to church was so that it would look good in the courts. I told my wife that I don't want to go to court I want us to work on our relationship and fix all of this.<P>what to do?????? I guess just keep living and hope for the best.<P>Is she going thru depression? Is this the signs? I hope that she seeks counseling and sees that we can make this work.<P>MarkC<BR>

MarkC:<P>It does sound like today was a bad day. All I can think of right now is to take it one day at a time. Expect to take two steps forward and then one back. Progress is often slow.<P>Your wife is probably on a horrible roller coaster. The pain a BS goes through is terrible. For the first few weeks after d-day I was so upset that it actually made my stomach hurt. I even threw up a few times from the physical reaction. I've never done this before.. not when my father died, not when I gave birth to stillborn twin girls, never before. So can your wife's obvious roller coaster emotions be a sign of depression. You bet. Perhaps needs to seek help for it. <P>I wish you all the luck. Keep us posted.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

How long does this rollor coster last???<P><BR>I haven't posted in awhile I thought things were getting better with us. No LB on my part. She has been trying to but I figured that was her trying to get back at me.<BR>I wrote her a little Plan A letter and she read it but thru it away along with all the I LOVE YOU cards that I have gave her. <P>We spent last saturday together, cleaning the outside the house things were good. I cooked steaks on the grill and we all ate super together. Then we all watched a movie together. I left around 9:30 as she asked me to. then Sunday after I got out of church went back to OUR house and we spent that afternoon together. Things seemed to be going good. I Talked to her on Monday and everything seemed fine. Tuesday Something told me to go out to the house. I went out there and we had a Great conversation for about 3 hours. Talked about what went wrong my bad doings and her bad doings and talked about her and I going to counseling. She said that she was still confused and doesn't know what she wants to do just yet. She told me that she was affraid of what everyone( Mother and My Sister in law) would say. ( I can't beleive that you took him back) But we were able to talk and I thought that we were seeing some light on reconciling. She asked me to leave after our conversation, said that she was real emotional and wanted me to go for now. I agreed and left.<P>4 July<BR>Got to the house around 7am to work on the yard and see the kids before they went over to their grandmothers for the 4th. She woke up around 9 and I told her that I was there she seemed happy to see me. We talked a little and drank coffee on the pourch for a little bit. I helped her get the girls ready to go. It was time for them to leave so I helped her get them in the van and she came back inside to answer the phone (mother-inlaw). Before she left I asked her for a hug and a kiss. She gave me a hug and a let me give her a kiss on her cheek. I cleaned the entire house for her. But I think that might have been a LB. <BR>Later that evening I tried to call her on her cell and she wouldn't answer. So I called over to her mothers house around 9 pm to tell her goodnight and to tell my girls good night. Her mother answered and the phone and said that they were outside watching the fireworks. But I could her them in the background. So I told her to tell my wife that I called and to give my girls a kiss from me and tell them goodnight.<P>Thursday I tried to call her on her cell and at home. She wouldn't answer her cell phone all day. I was getting worried about them. she finially answer her cell around 8 pm after she had left her mothers house and we were able to talk alittle. I past her on the road as she was heading home and I waved at her and she waved back. after about 10 min. She called me back to tell me that I had a headlight out. She told me that she hasn't answered her phone because she didn't konw if she wanted to talk to me or not. Everytime that she goes over to her mothers I can tell. She just has this hate for me then.<P>I love her so much and us being apart is really killing me.<BR>MarkC <p>[This message has been edited by MarkC (edited July 06, 2001).]

Why would cleaning the entire house be a LB?<P>If you don't mind me butting in here, I just wanted to say that it doesn't sound like your wife hates you to me. It sounds like she is afraid and yes, she could be allowing her family to influence her decisions. Not to mention, that tape replaying in her mind with images she will never ever be able to erase.<P>I just think that she is confused right now and she'll come around but she needs some time to gather her own thoughts apart from her family's influence and your smothering.<P>Hindsight is 20/20...