confusedpuppy, I'm getting in on this thread late, but just wanted to let you know that I also understand how you feel. I love the man I thought I married but not the man he has become. In my H's case there are alcohol and drugs involved.<P>My H never said he didn't find me attractive (and OW is unattractive by just about anybody's standards in both mind and body) but he's told me I disgust him, he hates me, he never loved me (but has also told me that he will always love me, etc.). We've been together for 19 years. <P>He left with OW right after Thanksgiving last year. Stayed with her for 4 months - bought all new stuff rather than take stuff from here, kept his own paychecks as well as using the company acct. for rent and furnishings and food, etc. Then he came home for 1.5 months, sent a no contact letter but continued contact anyway. He kicked me and the kids out and moved OW in for 2 weeks until I got a restraining order to get back in the house.<P>I am divorcing him because we own a business together and his alcohol and drug abuse could destroy it. I still hope that during the 6 month waiting period he will choose to get clean and sober, he did it before for almost 10 years. <P>Unfortunately the OW uses right along with him so he has little reason to quit. Also, his parents are letting him stay for free in a trailer they own at the beach for and have given him $10,000 for a lawyer while I'm paying him $1200 every two weeks in spousal support. He's 48 years old and OW is 22 and both act like they're about 16.<P>Becasue of the restraining order, I have no contact. I'm hoping, like you, that with no contact the pain will subside and I'll be ready to move on since the chances of reconciliation in my case are slim to none.<P>I wish my H said some of the things yours has said to you. I agree with everyone here that a good Plan B is necessary because he does seem to be in the stage where he wants to have his cake and eat it too. My H came home after only about a month of Plan B. Not a very good recommendation as things turned out, but no contact with OW at that point is key to recovery.

<B><BR>actions speak louder than words.<BR></B><P>Do they? I'm not so sure when it comes to a painful expierence in life. Sometimes it's hard and so difficult to help yourself with (Action) You say, this is what you want, this is how its going to happen. But it's difficult and hard none the less right? You need help, your asking for help, and it's difficult to realize you've got little help really. Take for example:<P>An old lady is in dreadful, terrible pain. Her doctor decides when she suffers from a cardiac arrest she shouldn’t be resuscitated. However she hangs on in relentless pain. Her doctor tries everything to relieve the pain to no avail. She begs him to end her life. Eventually he gives her an injection of potassium chloride which stops her heart: she dies.<P>So is it her actions that are convincing here? Or the words...<P>Also take into consideration (Depression) of the circumstances. He is also thinking of how much damage he has done to you. He may not show this, but it's there. We all know how difficult it is to help yourself out of depression. Some times you can't help yourself out of depression. You say you need help, but you can't bring yourself to get the help. Begging for help, you can't do it on your own.<P>So what speaks louder? Words or action here.<P>Praying to god for help. Praying: "Lord, I am not strong enough to do this on my own."<P>Action or Words?<P><B><BR>how did you get to that point? and how did you know you would be coming home but still continue with the affair? my stbx recently told me that in his heart he knows we'll be together again. huh? maybe i'm just so mixed up in all of this i can't see straight anymore and anything he says goes into one ear and out the other.<P>so i'll open up a can of worms, in your opinion do you think my h is telling the truth? what is it he's trying to work through that he just can't leave the ow? he knows our marriage is in it's final days. your insight would be much appreciated.<BR></B><P>I think he may be helpless to help himself. Hopelessly, and Helplessly looking (Forward) to divorce. It's difficult he needs someone strong to help guide him back. I needed someone strong too. I needed someone to tell me, things are going to be fine. I still have a home, I still have a wife to go home to, I can and will make the best of things. So I think he's reaching out for help here, and he has no one to really help him out of it. <P>I think he needs someone strong to guide him back, show him the way. Tell him it's going to be okay, but make sure you tell him. You have requirements as well. You can and will help him break free, but he needs to understand that you require no contact, and you'll help him with that, the he needs to do this and that, and you'll help him with those things. Don't make the mistake of trying to wait tell he comes to his own conclusions on how to get out and back. You're divorce will be long over by then. Help him leave. Gental persuasion, gental pushes, don't demand or judge.. Just help...<P>I got to this point where I am, because I spoke to a friend whom I respected, and trusted. He helped me when my time came. When I started to question and wonder what the hell I was doing, started to say things like "I dont want a divorce", ETC...<P>Just some thoughts...<P>*(Forward) I used this word above, I am not meaning he is looking "Forward" to it happening, just feels powerless to help himself out of the situation. So he'll ride it to the end, unless someone helps him.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by [H]<BR>*(Forward) I used this word above, I am not meaning he is looking "Forward" to it happening, just feels powerless to help himself out of the situation. So he'll ride it to the end, unless someone helps him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>EXACTLY!!!!!!<P>My WH told me many times that he was living from day to day and that his choices were not up to him but lay in the hands of OW and me. In other words it was like a battle and he was the prize for the victor. And in OW's case she was ill equiped in the long run to compete with me....except in a very few areas. And when it looked like I was beginning to move away from him, he suddenly wanted to come home.<P>So you can get your divorce and he will ride it to the end...or you can give it this one last try and give him an opportunity to really see what he's losing....giving him the incentive he may need to pull himself out of the muck.<P>Why did I take him back...I think because I could see that this A had little to do with me...it was just a desperate attempt on my WH's part to get back some element of his youth and to escape responsibility for a while (MLC stuff). And after 25 years you can let your marriage get a little stale...and that's both of our faults...and something we needed to work on. Stress, emotional problems and health had left him a lot more vunerable then I was and unfortunately, the wrong woman came into his life about that time. And like a brain worm she has been very difficult to remove.<P>Faye <P> <BR> <P><BR> <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:<BR><B>Hey, are we rubbing off on you? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i don't know yet. my head is reeling from all of this so i need some time to digest. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:<BR><B>You should tell him, because then he will know you are not contacting him ON PURPOSE. WAY DIFFERENT than just not contacting him. Think about it. If you know somebody doesn't want to talk to you, what's the normal response? To go talk to them - but he can't with plan B, so he'll brood over it. With a true plan B you won't have to deal with him until he chooses to not be with OW and to re-commit to the marriage, which is really want you want. Win/Win.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>actually, he's the one who suggested that we don't talk for a week because we were getting on each other's nerves. he just didn't know that i wasn't planning on talking to him for the rest of my life. okay, at least for the summer was my original plan.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:<BR><B>HA! No, my H never said I was unattractive, he is actually still very much attracted to me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>well that's the primary reason/excuse my h has been telling me. in the beginning he said that he doesn't feel passionate about me and doesn't find me attractive. now he says that passion was just a bunch of bs and fades (duh) and that he does find me attractive. but he says that he's really attracted to the ow and doesn't know if he'll ever feel that much attraction towards me. he really likes the ow's mid-section. um, well she's never had kids so what do you expect? i've had 2 kids (both delivered by c-section), stretch marks and loose skin to show for it. <P>i think the whole need he was looking for was an attractive spouse. i admit, i did let myself go a bit and gained about 14 pounds after our second child was born. plus i wasn't dressing up as nicely as i do now. anyway, i made the physical changes to myself for me and lost the weight, got the new wardrobe and hairstyle. i just can't do anything about the stretch marks and loose skin but my tummy's gotten flatter. for a woman with 2 kids, i'm in damn good shape! i told him before his whole affair became physical to just be patient. well he didn't wait and now we're in this mess.<P>when i look at myself in the mirror, i see an attractive lady. and when i walk into a room or when i'm out on the street, i do have men noticing me. hell i just had two guys the other day turn their heads when i passed by them, so i know that i don't look like quasimoto's sister. maybe i'm just not my h's type physically and the ow is. if that's such a big need for him that she fills it, so be it. i think it's extremely superficial.<BR>

Superficial? You bet - that's the fog baby. <P>You are beautiful, it's his own fault for his head being filled with moose worms. Honestly, don't worry about your looks that much. It's just an excuse. Maybe it's what he tells himself when he's trying to look in the mirror and that's the best he can come up with.<P>Does it really matter? I know it's the thing you focus on because it's the one thing that probably hits home the most (for me it's falling in love with OW - that's what my H used to make me feel like sh*t). <P>You could have plenty of men with your looks, I'm sure of it, but the point is just that your H is being a di*k, don't listen to ANYTHING he says. <P>Oh, and as for him wanting time apart. All I have to say is it's one thing to ask to be apart for a week. It's another to have your wife refuse to communicate with you in any way for the rest of your life (potentially)... <ouch>

Confused -<BR>About this passion thing the WH starts getting into ... Games played ... for some reason (the fog) the WS thinks they have this "passion" for the OP. If they come back to the marriage, they would feel passion for their spouse. It takes some time for them to turn around, but they can. We all have to take a look at where we fit in all this. I know you have had a day of it here, but the MB posters are right - we thought you came here for help. You have been giving all the answers to the questions - but, where is your responsibility in the A? The roles you played in your relationship, ones that prevented communication, closeness, intimacy. Express for your marriage accepting responsibility for neglecting your partner's needs. Rarely does an A happen - its from unmet needs - pure and simple. And you have to accept that the OW is meeting some need of your H's. You say you've read all the books - you put up alot of good arguments - I know you could outargue me - fact still remains - yes, you posted here instead of in divorce/divorcing. <P>You mention that you plan to never talk to your H after the divorce - (ouch is an appropriate response) - but how in the h*ll do you think you will be able to accomplish that with children between the both of you.<P>I don't advocate DIVORCE with children. I asked earlier if you had read any such books on the affects that divorce create (emotional, academic, etc.) it is complicated. Haven't heard the answer. I haven't gotten into those yet (in great depth) because I don't plan to have to use them.<P>I still do not advocate divorce for you. We would like to see you save your marriage. We know about getting to the end of your rope - and you sound about there - but could you climb back up for just a bit? I know you have to work on yourself as you said earlier, and sometimes that is done alot easier alone than being in a marriage.<P>You have been bashing your H all day in this - several posts have told you where they were - it just sounds as your H is confused, because he is having needs met by OW, but probably wants them met by you. Spouses have a way of saying things that hurt and are not true because they are hurting. Have you truly been empathetic to his feelings? I know - go ahead and blast my feelings apart - I still feel like all the other MB posters here - there is more.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>You have been giving all the answers to the questions - but, where is your responsibility in the A? The roles you played in your relationship, ones that prevented communication, closeness, intimacy. Express for your marriage accepting responsibility for neglecting your partner's needs. Rarely does an A happen - its from unmet needs - pure and simple. And you have to accept that the OW is meeting some need of your H's.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>hi after shock,<P>of course i take responsibility in the deterioration of my marriage but i don't take any for his affair. that was his choice, and his alone. i'm not believer that one spouse drives another into the arms of another person. that's just bs because it releases all resposibility from the ws. becoming involved in an affair is a choice and there's no justification for it. i think if someone's so unhappy in a relationship, they should leave first before becoming involved with someone else. with that said, let me back track to take ownership of my half of the marriage.<P>as i wrote to hurtbyhubby, one need my h had was for an attractive spouse. and you can read my post above regarding that need. another was for a recreational partner. those i believe were two of his biggest needs i failed to meet where the ow has been able to fill in. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>You say you've read all the books - you put up alot of good arguments - I know you could outargue me - fact still remains - yes, you posted here instead of in divorce/divorcing.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>the reason i posted here was to get opinions on the thought process my h had regarding his comments. so, yes i was looking for help in that area. maybe subconsiously i'm also reaching out for support to give me some strength for a last ditch effort, i don't know. i need to think about that also. but i will post my message in the divorce/divorcing area as well. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>You mention that you plan to never talk to your H after the divorce - (ouch is an appropriate response) - but how in the h*ll do you think you will be able to accomplish that with children between the both of you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>what i'm hoping to do in the future is request a transfer to another part of the country. i've been wanting to move out of my current residence for almost 10 years. the only reason i've stayed this long is because my h didn't want to move. his job and friends were here and he didn't want to go anywhere else. <P>talking to me implies either seeing the person or having a conversation over the phone. logistically, being in another state would make in-person meetings difficult. as for phone conversations, there's really nothing to talk about anymore that couldn't be written in an e-mail. if he calls to speak with the kids, that's fine. he doesn't need to talk to me. my view is that he manages his relationship with the kids, i'm not going to do that for him. if there's something he'd like to discuss with me regarding our children, he can write me. if it's urgent then fine, i'll take his call. there's no need for either one of us to divulge to each other any information regarding our private lives. maybe i'm wrong on this so if you have any insight, please share it with me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>I don't advocate DIVORCE with children. I asked earlier if you had read any such books on the affects that divorce create (emotional, academic, etc.) it is complicated. Haven't heard the answer.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yes, i've read books and visited websites on divorce - the affects on children, spouses, step parenting, all the stats, etc. i don't believe in divorce except for three instances: abuse, addiction and adultery. the first two are obvious to me and fortunately, there's never been any abuse or drug/alcohol addiction involved. it's the last a that's the clincher. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>I still do not advocate divorce for you. We would like to see you save your marriage. We know about getting to the end of your rope - and you sound about there - but could you climb back up for just a bit?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>after shock, don't get me wrong, i do believe in forgiveness and working on a marriage but there's a point people reach where they say "enough is enough". i want nothing more than to keep my family together but i just don't have anything left. give me something to grasp and i'll do my best to think about holding on for little while longer but right now, i can't see any pieces of string.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>it just sounds as your H is confused, because he is having needs met by OW, but probably wants them met by you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i talked to him about his needs and i'm more than willing to do it, but it's impossible to meet his needs if he's still with her. how can i get around this obstacle?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>Have you truly been empathetic to his feelings? I know - go ahead and blast my feelings apart - I still feel like all the other MB posters here - there is more.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>i'm not going to blast your feelings. i really appreciate your help and your caring ear. thank you.<P>i've tried to be empathetic to his feelings, talking to him and trying to understand his point of view. i can intellectualize what's going on but i can't say i know the feelings because i've never been on his side. and i will admit, sometimes my emotions get the better of me and i love bust left and right. not a good thing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by [H]:<BR><B>Also take into consideration (Depression) of the circumstances. He is also thinking of how much damage he has done to you. He may not show this, but it's there. We all know how difficult it is to help yourself out of depression. Some times you can't help yourself out of depression. You say you need help, but you can't bring yourself to get the help. Begging for help, you can't do it on your own.<P>So what speaks louder? Words or action here.</B><P>really, it's both. usually the words are first, then the actions follow. that's the missing piece for me, the action.<P><B>I think he may be helpless to help himself. Hopelessly, and Helplessly looking (Forward) to divorce. It's difficult he needs someone strong to help guide him back. I needed someone strong too. I needed someone to tell me, things are going to be fine. I still have a home, I still have a wife to go home to, I can and will make the best of things. So I think he's reaching out for help here, and he has no one to really help him out of it. <P>I think he needs someone strong to guide him back, show him the way. Tell him it's going to be okay, but make sure you tell him. You have requirements as well. You can and will help him break free, but he needs to understand that you require no contact, and you'll help him with that, the he needs to do this and that, and you'll help him with those things. Don't make the mistake of trying to wait tell he comes to his own conclusions on how to get out and back. You're divorce will be long over by then. Help him leave. Gental persuasion, gental pushes, don't demand or judge.. Just help...</B> <P>[H], i already tried that route many times. that's how we've usually come close to reconciling. i give him my hand to hold onto so that i can pull him out if he's too entrenched and weak to get out of it on his own. i know if he leaves the ow, he'll be in a total state of withdrawal and depression. this is when i need to support him through this stage and give him the love, comfort and security that things can will get better. the thing is, he doesn't grab a hold of my hand. this is what i mean by actions speak louder than words. if he's really reaching for help, then why doesn't he take it when it's offered?<P><B>*(Forward) I used this word above, I am not meaning he is looking "Forward" to it happening, just feels powerless to help himself out of the situation. So he'll ride it to the end, unless someone helps him.</B><P>so what you're saying is that he'll go through with the divorce because nobody's helping him?<P><BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by buffy:<BR><B> My WH told me many times that he was living from day to day and that his choices were not up to him but lay in the hands of OW and me. In other words it was like a battle and he was the prize for the victor. And in OW's case she was ill equiped in the long run to compete with me....except in a very few areas. And when it looked like I was beginning to move away from him, he suddenly wanted to come home. </B><P>my h thinking he's a prize makes me want to run the other way. i think anyone who gets into an affair and thinks he/she is some prize to be won is really the loser. sorry i just had to vent about that. <P><B>So you can get your divorce and he will ride it to the end...or you can give it this one last try and give him an opportunity to really see what he's losing....giving him the incentive he may need to pull himself out of the muck.</B><P>so you think the full blown plan b is the last opportunity? and hold off on giving him the papers? how long would you suggest?<P><B>Why did I take him back...I think because I could see that this A had little to do with me...it was just a desperate attempt on my WH's part to get back some element of his youth and to escape responsibility for a while (MLC stuff). And after 25 years you can let your marriage get a little stale...and that's both of our faults...and something we needed to work on. Stress, emotional problems and health had left him a lot more vunerable then I was and unfortunately, the wrong woman came into his life about that time. And like a brain worm she has been very difficult to remove.</B><P>are you happy in your marriage now? has your h changed for the better and are you going to counseling together?<P> <BR> <P><BR> <P><BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:<BR><B>Superficial? You bet - that's the fog baby. </B><P>that's some thick a$$ fog to want to get out of a marriage. <P><B>Does it really matter? I know it's the thing you focus on because it's the one thing that probably hits home the most (for me it's falling in love with OW - that's what my H used to make me feel like sh*t).</B><P>it blew my self-esteem out of the water. the one man in the world i wanted to so much to find me attractive, doesn't. oh i could tell you all the stupid lines he gave me to bring me down. just to give you an example of his cruelty, we were shopping for cars last year and i asked him if i were a car, which model would i be. he said i'd be a camry. then goes on to tell me a "joke". he said, you'd be a camry. everybody wants you but me. let's take a knife and pierce it through my heart. <P>oh yeah, he's told me that he loves the ow, then he back tracks and says he doesn't but still tells her he does. and then goes back again and says he loves me more than he loves her and that there are different types of love. yes, he's confused but at the same time he also lies. okay i'm starting to feel the rage again so i'll stop. <P>

Confused puppy<P>You're situation and frame of mind sound so much like mine - down to the 2 kids and C-sections. I can relate to you wanting to throw in the towel - I wrestle with that thought every waking moment. My WH left to be with OW the day after D-day, which was last Easter. Haven't seen him since, but we still have joint accounts etc etc. He took a job transfer to another town so that he could be with her - and have a "proper relationship." She is Catholic and a doctor's wife - and people might recognize her !!!! We've only lived here 2 years so not too many people know us. He only took his clothes and a few compact discs (he even showed them to me - to make sure they weren't any of my favorites!!) <P>He does keep in touch with us thru email and the occasional phone call - and then he is just polite - nothing more. The reason I haven't filed for divorce yet is that I am not completely sure he is out of the fog yet - so I should just try to hang in there a bit longer. On a day to day basis I don't see what difference it would make - at this point. We can limbo a while longer and then divorce - but we can't divorce and then limbo.<P>So - CP - I fully understand it when you talk about having pieces of string to grasp on to , or holding out your hand to help - and receiving nothing - Nada - no effort from WH. Mine says that he knows our marriage isn't that bad - but he's too bored to work on it - much easier to find someone new and start fresh. He says he has no more passion for me - and he has found the same kind of passion that we used to have with OW. All his comments seem to fit in with this new person he has become - except for when it comes to the kids. His indifference towards them has completely baffled me - and that's when I think - maybe , just maybe ……<P>Hang in there<BR>Shakti<P>

Just my opinion, but if he says "everyone wants you but me", he knows your attractive and is just trying to convince himself that he is not attracted to you.<P>My H does that ALL the time. Says stuff outloud to me to try and MAKE it be true and convince himself. Trying to justify it - it doesn't work.<P>You have to learn to ignore it even though it hurts. Believe me, my self-esteem is shot to hell as well, I think many of us here feel the same way. You have to realize WS's say stupid things they don't necessarily mean when in the fog. Period. Knowing that, don't dwell on what he says.<P>Just go into plan B and let nature run its course. I think it is your last ditch effort. Go for it, what do you have to lose? Nothing. What do you have to gain? Everything.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shakti:<BR><B>You're situation and frame of mind sound so much like mine -down to the 2 kids and C-sections. <P>He took a job transfer to another town so that he could be with her - and have a "proper relationship." She is Catholic and a doctor's wife - and people might recognize her !!!! </B><P>hi shakti,<P>hey we're twins, LOL. "proper relationship"???????? okay he's in fantasyland just like mine was. my h was in so much denial that he believed he wasn't cheating on me since we separated 3 days before the relationship was consummated. it took him a few months to finally admit he was committing adultery.<P>and as far as this catholic thing, she obviously missed her catecism class when they reviewed the 10 commandments. i am catholic and i think that's been my h's saving grace. <P><B>On a day to day basis I don't see what difference it would make - at this point. We can limbo a while longer and then divorce - but we can't divorce and then limbo. </B><P>could you please explain the whole we can't divorce then limbo bit? i would just like your point of view.<P><B>All his comments seem to fit in with this new person he has become - except for when it comes to the kids. His indifference towards them has completely baffled me - and that's when I think - maybe , just maybe ……</B><P>when it comes to the kids, again my h takes the cake. i understand the indifference as well and maybe that's what pushed me over in the beginning. but that's another ball of wax. <P>shatki, i admire you for hanging in there. how long has the affair been going on? how long are you planning to wait for your h? has he told you that he doesn't want a divorce?

Hi Cp<P>I'm not quite sure how to cut and paste quotes and all that - but I will answer your questions:<P>No - he does not want a divorce (I asked him if he wanted one - on Dday - which was April 2001 - hadn't heard of MB yet). His reason was that he had no intention of marrying again - if he wanted a family - he already had the best one a man could want…???<P>What I mean by I can't divorce and then limbo is that once I divorce the man - then there isn't any going back ( in my books - although people have been known to divorce and remarry). I would rather limbo as long as I can - depends on how long my sanity lasts. And if I then feel that I have given all that I can - including waiting/limbo time - well then so be it. <P>How long have we been separated - well WH has a job where we move every 2 - 3 years - so he took a transfer in February 2001 - and asked me to wait behind for the kids to finish their school year - not uncommon in his line of work. I didn't want to, but he insisted - I didn't know about the A then - but suspected it. Came over to see us at Easter and made his confession. The PA has been on since September 2000 - she is a coworker and I feel the EA has been on for 2 years - but he doesn't believe in EA - "just friends" - says I don't know anything about real friendship.<P>I have to admit that on a day to day basis - having him out of the house is easier than the period where we were still living under the same roof and he was having the A (and lying about it). I never knew what to expect - his mood swings, he was always depressed, angry - shouted at the kids all the time etc etc. I do worry about the long term aspects of bringing the kids up alone - but, mind you, I seem to be doing that anyway. I feel okay about myself - and I really have been working on myself - lost weight - look good - went back to work - new hobbies etc etc. I really enjoy my kids and we have a great relationship<P>However I do love and miss the man that I married - so if the old guy chooses to return he will be welcome. Just hope he doesn't take too long.<P>Hang in there<BR>Shakti<BR>

Confused -<BR>We feel for you and your dilema. You certainly have done your research, and you deserve more in this life. You've asked how much more time. It's been said before everyone is different. You want to serve and get it over - by the way - I do understand exactly where you are coming from about not talking to him - I told my H last year during our battles that I would never talk to him again either. What really would be the point? What really hurt was when he said he would remember all the great times - yea, right, where are good times when you divorce? I know where you are coming from about appearance and your H not wanting you - my H says he does not find me attractive either (and that was within the last 60 days or so) . I consider our OW very attractive - but how really does that fit into the total equation - Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder - all I wanted was my own man with a heart that cared for me. Didn't matter what he looked like as long as he was nice. I always treasured this - - - - - until he blew that apart last year - then someone else fell in love with him.<P>I don't feel it is anybodies right to fall in love with someone else's husband. We could debate this all day, and still not arrive at the answer we want. Now, I know the vultures are out there - everyone of them, so you have to safeguard your marriage everyday.<P>You asked if I have any suggestions. Everyone yesterday was trying to see the whole picture. We are just trying to help - also as we are trying to help our relationships too. My suggestion is to call the expert: Dr. Harley. You know your facts well, you are not uneducated, you want to do the right thing. We probably would advise for you to send the Plan B letter, and have no further contact, until Plan B blew up their relationship. You can't do a Plan B with a twist. I know you have gotten alot of good advice here, but I really think a call to Dr. Harley would be in order. I just feel that you could spend a little more time, without serving the divorce papers. Yes, it is really bad that he is with her at the moment, and she is building his love bank - and he is not giving you the opportunity to deposit any units. Because the rule of time is very important, and he has taken that away from you. <P>The really sad thing in all of this - is that someday - the passion feeling the WS has right now will fade, and they will look back - and say, "I made a mistake". The relationship will be no greater than the one they had with you, but they blew it.<P>I know where your self-esteem is right now. Exactly in the same place mine is (and my d-day was June 9-14 last year). I still don't have my self-esteem back. I feel like I am in the gutter. I can't believe this ever happened to my marriage and me and him. I don't know how many years it is going to take to put this back together. It was an EA for my H, very short, first time he'd seen her in a long time was in Feb 2000, then March (because she was out of state), e-mails started back and forth, then he got aol im installed and she talked with him and another friend (male). Then she came and stayed with us w/her d - that's where the June dates for d-day come. They were family friends, and I knew no different - did not even expect a thing - but I put 2 and 2 together really fast on June 10, I could not wait for them to get out of my house - I was up early with coffee on to push them out the door Monday morning. I will despise that family for the rest of my life - I do not want to have anything to do with them. We went through hell. I don't care if it hurts the Mom & dad's feelings, or the kids that cared for my husband - she did it, and as I am concerned they can all know why. Alot of LBing - if I'd only known back then - I would not have done the LB's.<P>I know exactly what you mean about getting all worked up over the entire thing. I just think that some time would be in order for that relationship to start having problems. The uncanny thing is at the beginning - the spouse sees the OP as perfect because they meet their needs - but pretty soon that starts disinegrating. Yes, you are right - if the spouse was unhappy - then they needed to go on their own, and after it is over - then find someone new. But unfortunately, people are insecure so they find someone else to boost them up, at the expense of their spouse.<P>Confused, talk to Dr. Harley, and make your decisions from there. aftershock