my H and i got in a huge fight tonite after he read my last thread and replies. <BR>i want everyone to know that i do not believe my H went out looking for an A. i know i was not the best W in the world.<BR>i did have a major prob. with trust due to past with family.<BR>i also know that this was not his fault and should have been reconciled before we got married. i did try to get help with counceling, but it got too expensive after a while so i had to quit going.<BR>i am trying to understand everyone's point of view here. i know our marriage probs are not all his nor mine.<BR>i have my share of downfalls too.<BR>when we were first married five years ago, i was 21 then, i did some things financially that were very bad for us. i see the error of my ways now, and will never do it again. i also jumped from job to job, staying at them for only a few months at a time. did this for about a year and 1/2.<BR>yes, he supported me, but i was going through some troubles with my family. i had to drop out of college and take care of my younger sis and bro because my mom went to prison.<BR>(this is where my lack of trust started.) i felt useless and horrible, much like i do now.<P>i guess my question is to WS, what was the final turning point for you to go and finally have the A? I do not want to seem the only victim here, because i am not. i hurt my H also, the person i vowed to love and take care of for life. i am ashamed of myself for doing this. i never meant to hurt him. i just did not know how to help myself or us. he felt very lonely like he had lost me, and so he turned to someone who cared. it should have been me, but it wasn't. can't change the past. i'm not saying this gave him the right, but i don't think he would have had the A if things had been different. he was a good H for four years before he gave up. i wish i could have seen the light sooner. maybe the A wouldn't have happened.<BR>hindsight truly is 20/20.<P>so to everyone, i want you to all know the truth. i really need some input from other WS who are now in healing with their BS. i would like to hear your story so i could share it with my H. <BR>thanks for your time. bluegirl

BG:<P>Well, Zorweb has been yakking your ear off, so I guess it is my turn (especially since you are seeking input from a WS).<P>It all starts innocently enough. After all, what harm is there in just chatting on IM? Well, it's like boiling the frog: if you do it slowly, they won't notice at all. The nature of IM and then email seems innocent enough at first (or at least it is easy to justify it that way).<P>Valuable lesson here: chat is full of lonely people (men and women alike), and what may seem like a simple chat friendship at first, often means much more to the other person. So joking at first, becomes habit ... and a little tease here, etc. leads one down a not-so-good path.<P>Each case is different, of course, but it basically boils down to making poor choices due to some set of circumstances. And rather than admit that we have made an error of judgment, we alibi our behavior and find it easier to continue the bad behavior. This wreaks havoc on the marriage, as guilt and deceit dance a particularly vicious tango.<P>As time goes on, the WS finds themself in a befuddled state (most often referred to here as "the fog") ... and while deep down they can feel the wrongness of what they are doing; it is so easy to deceive oneself that it is, after all, harmless.<P>Unfortunately, that is not the case: it is harmful to the marriage and it is definitely harmful to your spouse. Even if the chatting/email/phonecalls were totally innocent, just the amount of energy devoted to those pursuits is time stolen from enriching the marriage.<P>I was wrestling with inner moral dilemmas prior to D-Day and was actively (insofar as the fog permitted me to) trying to distance myself from that behavior. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Zorweb and I have found our road to recovery easier than it otherwise could have been: because for me, the fog was already beginning to dissipate.<P>It has been a painful process, but in the end, the road we are now on shows all the promise of a much richer, rewarding marriage, partnership and friendship. Though I would be the first to say that it is not a road whose toll I would recommend to anyone.<P>Thank God we found Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair and this site, in addition to Dr. Harley's other books; and some books by others have been helpful too.<P>If there is one thing that I could impart to a WS: be honest, but do so in a carrying, non-hurtful way. Work diligently to earn back the trust you have shattered. Meeting your spouse's emotional needs should be your paramount goal. And if you are both following Dr. Harley's methods, you can rest assured that meeting your emotional needs is your spouse's priority as well.<P>Time, caring and commitment can get you beyond this. But if it is not a 100-percent effort by both spouses, the odds of failure are pretty high.<P>So, BG, I hope your H reads this as well. And I would point out that hindsight is not always 20/20 if you are still in the fog (got that BG's H?).<P>The key for you both is not what you may have done in the past to damage your marriage: it is what you are going to do now to repair it. Dr. Harley's works, and the advice you will find on this site are invaluable aids to getting you off on the road to recovery.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

Bluegirl, your H's A was not your fault entirely..it's not really a time for blame right now. Sweetie, as a WS, I can so relate to STL's reply to you. Yes, the shame for us WS is incredible once we see the light and step or start to step out of the fog. IT's been over 4mos since d-day for me and this weekend I am dying --feeling like a heart attack nearly--with grief and remorse.<P>My reason? I got so sick and tired of giving and looking after others. I got really selfish. To be honest, I was curious what an A would feel like. I am a Christian but I will tell you it feels like ****. Sorry for my language.<P>My case is weird since OM I think had an elaborate plan for me to fall but I walked into it. Now I wish so hard I could erase the past. I wonder if your H feels similar feelings but it's different for everyone of us here.<P>Don't beat yourself up, hon. Work on your issues if H is willing and if he is not, work on you..not blaming yourself but keeping yourself strong. Loving you. <P>Big hopes for a wonderful recovery for you both, <P>------------------<BR>Fresh Start

I hope that sentence didn't come across wrong..I don't mean you are at fault for your H's A...just that things go wrong two ways in relationships.<P>Editor, thank you for editing that bad word..I felt bad as I soon as I sent it. God forgive me..sometimes I feel I can't do anything right but other times --score...<P>Hope you read this post too so I won't have hurt or offended you by misunderstanding of that first comment.

i dont post here because i know i am viewed as the evil "H" who had the horrible "A." i do read however and i think people tend to give advice through a sense of common ground instead of being grounded on common sense. what i am about to say is NOT an excuse because there is none. i am ashamed that i turned my back on my family by having an affair. both bluegirl and our boys deserved much better.<BR> I tried so hard for years to show bluegirl that i was a good man and would stand by her no matter what. In return my integrity was constantly questioned. I was told by her that she believed that i would leave her or i would have an affair or that other women were always trying to get close to me etc etc. The thought of having an affair could never have been farther from my mind. I love bluegirl more than anything or anyone i have ever had in my life. Our marriage is the basis of any type of happiness in my life. I believe that if done long enough..telling someone they arent good enough to trust or respect..then that person will start doing things that are not trustful or respectful.<BR> Not an excuse, just the way it is. I started a job that i thought was going to turn into a wonderful career. It required me to work very late nights, so when i came home i was so wired from work i couldnt sleep. So i would stay up and chat with (dont misconstrue this) friends. Bluegirl became upset that i was not coming to bed at the same time she did. She just couldnt understand that i didnt want to lay in bed wide awake while she slept. After some time she became very resentful and started pushing me away sexually.<BR> Intimacy became something of the past. Already i was feeling untrusted for absolutely no reason and now i had a wife who for some reason decided she didnt want me physically. Was i getting to fat? (yes..men worry about that too}. Was i unattractive to her now? Was i not satisfying her? <BR> Turns out that after asking several times why this was happening, that she was doing this to "Punish me for not coming to bed when she did". I was being punished for not being tired and for talking to friends on the internet.<BR> I know that she has very strong esteem problems and problems with trusting. I tried everything i knew to reassure her over the years. I finally came to the point that i felt i had failed and she no longer really loved me or even wanted me. I felt that she viewed our marriage as a convenience. I know i was wrong but after so many years of this type of behavior from her i didnt understand and i was angry and hurt and lonely and and and...i could go on for days trying to describe my feelings. I wanted someone to tell me i was attractive, that i was wanted and needed. I wanted these things to come from bluegirl but they didnt. So like an idiot i sought out others who might reassure me that i was wanted. I started talking to "OW" about our problems that seemed similar. (didnt see that danger signals). I feel like such a fool...we talked for about a year (honestly..the time frame that this all happened in is a blur, bluegirl wants to know when..i honestly could not say the day). My mind spins when i try to sort out details.<BR> People talk about "the fog". I guess i understand that but it doesnt apply to me. Things are all too clear to me now. I know what has happened, I know what and why i did what i did. I am not blaming bluegirl. She had problems that i didnt now know how to help her deal with. It forced us apart and i failed myself by surrendering my self respect. I dont want anyone to tell me that i had a good reason for the "A". I do want people to realize that even though affairs are a terrible thing to have to live through, from both sides. I am not ok with what i did but i do believe that trying to relive over and over again and trying to rehash what happened will not get us where we need to go. THIS IS NOT FOG...im not going to blame what i did on anything except my own failures..likewise i am not going to use an excuse to keep from moving forward.<BR> I want my wife back. I want the woman who stood beside me in a beautiful wedding gown, surrounded by sunflowers, and standing on one leg and a crutch, (i'll let bg explain) and said that she would love me and cherish me and believe in me and i in her. I want what should have been. I WANT WHAT I DESERVE. I truly believe that if i had been given the trust that i earned over and over again that the A would never have happened. I love bluegirl and i am so sorry for hurting her.<BR> The ow does not exist in my world anymore. I truly do now know where she is nor could i care less. After the affair happened...which was i suppose if i admit it was about a year...however the physical part was only once. I was so sick after i slept with ow. What i thought would be there was not. I felt even more empty than i did before. Not only was i incapable of being loved...i was incapable of loving anyone else.<P> I am angry and i am sad and i am hurt and i am happy. Strange to have all of this at once. I am happy that the affair has come out into the open. I truly believe that had this not come to light then our marriage would be doomed for sure. The fact that bluegirl discovered the affair is the only thing that will save our marriage and save our love for one another. I know now that she loves me..i guess the fog for me was during the four years that i did not understand what she was going through and did not know how to help her. <BR> Well..for someone who doesnt like to post on this site i have certainly taken up enough space and time. Im sure bluegirl has tried to call and is saying..he's on the inet again. Well..i cant make her trust me now anymore than i could in the beginning. I never lost trust because i never had it to begin with..but i do want her understanding and her love. those are most important to me.<P> I love you Bluegirl...with all of my heart.<BR>note to zorweb: i know you want to help people and im glad you care about those who have been hurt. Remember that you do not have all of the facts and by telling bg that i had done nothing to earn her trust....you really dont have all of the facts. I have done everything to earn her trust. I do not touch the computer anymore other than to check a shared email acct. and to read these posts. Please try to remember that there are three sides to everything..the truth being the one we need to see before we start telling people how to spy on thier spouses and to encourage more distrust. I know you will take offense to this but frankly i dont care. my wife is the one i need to please..not you.

BG and NC:<P>The key here is where you are going. Read Dr. Harley's material. Do the emotional needs questionaire. Begin implementing a course that will salvage your marriage. The rule of care, of honesty and of protection apply here. Charting this course is not about pointing fingers to assign blame, it is about pointing your finger in the direction you wish to travel from this point on, and how it is that you are going to get there.<P>NC:<BR>Glad you posted. And, no, for the most part there is no "hate" for the WS. MB exists to help two people recover their marriage in the wake of an A. It stands to reason, then, that one of those two is going to be (as in my case), a WS. <BR>I have found myself welcome in this forum. I have learned much; and--fortunately having had success with Dr. Harley's methods--try to give back to this community.<P>It sounds as if you have mostly come out of your fog, yet there are parts of your post that point to lingering tendrils of confusion. While there are circumstances in your marriage and EN that BG might not have met, the bottom line is that YOU made the decision to have an A rather than to work on your marriage. But that is what Dr. Harley's work is about and what this site is about, getting you and BG back on track.<P>A note on monitoring software such as Iopus' 007Starr: read Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair, the rule of honesty is pertinent here. You talk about BG's not "trusting" you. Such software is one way to help build that trust, as it will show that you are, in fact, doing nothing illicit. It is a tool, not to spy as you note, but to affirm. I have installed that software (and now do not even think about it). I had my reservations, but because HONESTY was no. 1 on my wife's ENs (BTW, zorweb is my W.), I installed it. Ka-ching go the love units because I have done something to fulfill an important need of hers. Think of it, too, as a tool to help reinforce proper behavior. Having been through an A that is Internet-related, it serves as a constant reminder of the ease to which we can fall prey to such folly.<P>Godspeed to you both,<BR>STL

Nolo contendere and bluegirl<P>Have you read the marriage builders material and the book Surviving an Affair? The purpose of this website to help people learn how to save their marriages after an affair and to rebuilding it using the MB philosophy.<P>RE: “i dont post here because i know i am viewed as the evil "H" who had the horrible "A." “<P>No, you are not viewed as “the evil H who had the horrible A”. There are people from all sides of the triangle who post here, BS, WS and OP. We all extend a hand to each other. We are all human. I believe that all of us have the potential to be in any of these positions given the right circumstances (Or should I say the wrong circumstances?). I also believe in redemption and forgiveness. <P>In my previous marriage my husband had one affair after another. I loved him and would have stayed with him if at any point in the marriage he would have stopped his affairs and started working on our marriage.<P>Today I am married to a wonderful man (SeenTheLight) who I love dearly. He was a BS in his previous two marriages and a WS is ours. I view the situation of him and his affairs as being his being a man who fell from grace with himself. Our D-day was March 22. We are now on the road to recovery thanks in part to the MB philosophy and to the support of the people on this website. <P>Speaking for myself I do not believe for one moment that you are evil. Instead I only hope that you and bluegirl can recover your marriage, heal and grow from this experience.<P><BR>RE: “i do read however and i think people tend to give advice through a sense of common ground instead of being grounded on common sense. “<P>The way I see it is that this web site serves two purposes. 1) To give people support for the difficult situations they find themselves in. 2) To help people learn how to improve their marriages and recover from affairs using the MB philosophy and guidelines. <P>No one here is a professional. Sure we shoot from the hip some times. We are here to learn and all input is welcome. We have to learn to take what is said with a grain of salt. Then sift through it and take what we feel helps us and leave the rest. The most important thing here is open dialogue. If you disagree with something said, then speak up and discuss it with them and others on the forum. We can all learn from that. But there is no need for attacking people. If you feel that your insight and advice would be more “grounded on common sense” then that of many of the people here then please speak up. We need your input. We are all learning and growing together. It is very easy to criticize people but quiet another to put our selves on the line.<P><BR>RE: note to zorweb: i know you want to help people and im glad you care about those who have been hurt. Remember that you do not have all of the facts and by telling bg that i had done nothing to earn her trust....you really dont have all of the facts. I have done everything to earn her trust. I do not touch the computer anymore other than to check a shared email acct. and to read these posts. Please try to remember that there are three sides to everything..the truth being the one we need to see before we start telling people how to spy on thier spouses and to encourage more distrust. I know you will take offense to this but frankly i dont care. my wife is the one i need to please..not you.”<P>You are right that I responded without knowing your side of the story. Bluegirl only presented her side so that is all there was to go on. What you say is going on is totally different from what she says. You say that you don’t touch the computer anymore accept to check a shared email account and to read these posts. <P>Bluegirl says: “now when i go to work, i still can't get a hold of him because he is again on the computer. he also has private emails that i have no access to and do not even know where they are(what search engine) is this privacy allowed and should i just let him be on the i-net all nite while i am at work?” <P>She also said that you delete history and do other things to make sure there is not trail. The thing said were not presented as beliefs, they were presented as facts. Are you saying that your wife out and out fabricated this stuff and then turned around and showed it to you? Why on earth would she do that? If she did not tell the truth in her post, then shame on her. If you are the one not telling the truth then shame on you. I have a sneaky suspicion that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It is for you and your wife to sort that out. This forum will only work if everyone involved is being absolutely truthful.<P>RE: “I have done everything to earn her trust.”<P>It does not look like you have done everything because she does not trust you. It may very well be that you are not doing anything inappropriate at this time. But she is obviously not sure of that. <P>One of the basic rules of MB is that neither spouse has any privacy from the other. This keeps both parties honest and above board. It helps to keep either of them from building a life separate from their spouse. By their very nature, affairs require that the WS has a secret corner of their live in which they can sneak around.<P>It appears that you are going to have to take some extra-ordinary steps to rebuild your wife’s trust in you. Trust once broken has to be earned back.<P>One of the things that suggested by MB is that when email and the Internet are an issue in an affair, to install keystroke-tracking software on the computer. That way the WS can show the BS in a very concrete manner their commitment to the marital recovery.<P>When I first found out about my husband’s affairs I was very concerned about his computer use. He is a web developer so he needs to be on the computer daily. It was very scary for me and I was not sure I could continue with our marriage because I quite frankly did not know if I could trust him. At the advice of the people here at MB I asked if he would install the software sold by <A HREF="http://www.iopus.com" TARGET=_blank>www.iopus.com</A> on his computers as a way to give me the assurance I needed. After investigating the stability and non-intrusiveness of the software he agreed to install it. I also installed in on my computer because the honesty and openness needs from come from both of us. This has really nothing to do with blame or who is right or wrong. It has to do with creating a safe environment for our marriage to recover. We have 6 computers in our home as our children each have their own too. We are installing the tracking software on all of the computers. ( We found Son-12 and Son-13 surfing porn sites. So we are also giving them a measure of openness too so that they know they cannot sneak.) This is all done openly so that all family members know about it. Again the rule of honesty. It has to extend to the entire family, not just between my husband and me.<P>The open honesty is actually very easy to live with. Since the day I married SeenTheLight my entire life and everything I have is completely open to him. He is free look at anything. And he has actually been that way for the most part.. Except for that little corner of his life where he carried out his affairs. Now even that is open to me. It a liberating thing to be so open with my husband. <P>So if I stand so fully behind the rule of honesty, how could I have suggested that your wife snoop? (And note that it was a suggestion. I did not enter your house and make your wife do anything. She asked for opinions and I gave mine.) I did this because you wife is obviously in pain and she obviously does not trust you. She gave the impression that she gets no satisfaction in trying to deal directly and honestly with you. That may not be the case but then why would she have said the things she said. I did this because I also believe that a spouse has the absolute right to know what is going on in their lives. Most of BS find out about their spouse’s affairs through bits and pieces of information that fall into their lap. Since the WS rarely will fess-up when asked about the evidence, most have to look for more information. One thing I will never understand is why the WS often seem to think that their need to privacy and the affair out weighs their spouses need to have sanity returned to their lives? It is a self-serving point of view. The thing about snooping using keystroke monitor software is that if you were truly up to nothing, then your wife would find that out. She would then realize who foolish she was and how trustworthy your are. This can actually be a very good thing for a relationship. <P> I will continue to support a BS’s right to gather information that helps them determine their situation. And then their right to confront all parties involved. However, I do believe that once the BS has enough information to be sure of the situation, further snooping is of little to no use. It only serves to bring the BS more pain and does not help in rebuilding the marriage. <P>As soon as possible a couple in recovery should agree to the policy of radical honesty.<P>All of this is of course only my opinion and you may take it or leave it. <P>Z<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

i did forget to mention that i do get online at night to go to my webpage when i feel the need to write my poetry. I dont feel that doing something that gives me comfort should be viewed as something that hurts her. However, last night i deleted all of my links to my poetry sites and deleted all of my poetry and all other links to any sites i visited. On the trust issue, i never lost her trust because it was never there. From the beginning trust has been her issue, not mine. The affair was hurtful and wrong. I wonder how long someone has to live with being mistrusted for absolutely no reason and to put up with having your spouse turn their backs on you and the relationship before they finally give up.<P> How long is a person supposed to be able to deal with lonliness before they find someone that will make them feel like they exist again. Im guilty, I gave up. <P> I disagree with the iopus deal, not because i have anything to hide because if i did i would be spending time on here which i dont except for today because bluegirl asked me to. The nights she was referring to was over a week ago when i was beginning to build a poetry website for others to use. Since then i have not been online at night at all. I'm not saying she is lying, she is very and rightfully upset and she forgets to add some things that may shed a different light. I have told her over and over again that pointing fingers is exactly what we need to get away from, but coming from me makes it sound like i just want to avoid my part of the responsibility when in fact i only want to move forward to our future together and not wallow in our past screw ups. Maybe i am trying to move forward too fast but it is only because i have been putting up with the hurt for so many years i finally see some light ahead and want to run to it. She is still trying to deal with what has happened and is having a hard time believing the light is even real.<P> Bluegirl has a husband who has never wanted anyone or anything more in his life and she still doesnt see it. Yes, what i have done i realize makes it even more difficult but the fact remains that i want our marriage. I want to be sitting beside her when i am 70yrs old trying like hell to remember anything from this time, or anything at all for that matter. There is no "fog", there is only the reality that we both have made serious errors in our lives without regard for the other person.<P>god..im sitting here and rereading what im writing and it all sounds like blah blah blah blah..i feel like im expending energy and wasting my breath trying to convince anyone how much i love her.<P> Using a program to snoop shows distrust. You get what you give. Distrust breeds distrust, anger breeds anger. Trust is something that is given. I have never been given the trust that should have come with her love. How is it possible to lose something you never had? jesus..this isnt makine any more sense to me now than it will to anyone else so i will shut up for now.................

NC and BG:<P>You are taking a big first step here. Fingerpointing and recrimination is an exercise in futility, and will only further open the wounds. That being said:<P>Read the material here on MB. Dr. Harley's methods do work (zorweb and I can attest to that); but it requires total commitment from both spouses. After reading Surviving an Affair, also read His Needs, Her Needs.<P>Based on what has been posted so far, it would appear that BG's no. 1 emotional need is honesty. The MB philosophy goes this way: you strive 100% to meet her top 5 needs and she strives 100% to meet your top 5 emotional needs.<P>It is not a confrontation that you are in; it is a process of establishing forthright communication in a caring, non-hurtful way. Read up on the rules of honesty, caring, and protection, in particular. Do the Emotional Needs Questionnaire: honestly. Discuss each other's needs openly.<P>It is difficult at first: many of the concepts go against the grain of what we are accustomed to doing. Too bad they don't teach Dr. Harley's methods in high school.<P>Building an enduring marriage is hard work (see the nation's divorce rates); but it needn't be a chore, a drudgery. I have discovered that the process, once implemented, deepens and attenuates the foundations upon which a marriage is derived. I have come to enjoy and cherish our new and open relationship; and the concept that while I am striving to meet my wife's top emotional needs, she is doing the same for me (rules of protection and care); and that, through TOTAL honesty, we have learned that there is nothing that we cannot discuss. Our levels of communication are now far deeper and more meaningful than they ever were.<P>So, back to BG's no. 1 need: honesty. As a former WS, I can attest to the importance in rebuilding trust: it is paramount to your success. You may, in fact, be totally committed and have indeed foresworn all contact with the OP. That is an admirable start. Yet, you must constantly keep in mind, that as her no. 1 emotional need, honesty and openness are your duty to fulfill. That includes things like monitoring software. I, too, initially resisted ... it seemed like an invasion of my privacy. Two things changed my line of thinking: first, to fulfill my wife's emotional need for honesty (her number one need), such a step was not an imposition, it was something that I should strive to do for her (rule of protection, rule of care, rule of honesty); and secondly, in a totally open and honest relationship, there is no need for privacy. So I installed 007Starr. No imposition and ka-ching went the love unit deposits. (On a technical note, the software has almost no impact on the operating system and memory usage; it can be set up to be totally unintrusive.) Keep in mind that this serves as an affirmation, not a condemnation by her. By seeing the software reports, plus by you being totally open and honest in other aspects, you will have gone far in meeting her top need.<P>It will take time. Even armed with the MB tenets and a total desire to fulfill each others' needs, you should also investigate joint and/or separate counseling.<P>A helpful exercise that zorweb and I do, is to discuss our weekly (and now biweekly) counseling sessions and then to re-evaluate our EN. This keeps us focused. Emotional needs, after all, change over time. By doing this, we are constantly ascertaining that we are, in fact, meeting our spouse's needs, and that they are meeting ours. No recriminations, either: it is all done in a caring, loving and nurturing context. After all, the goal is common to both of us: building an enduring and meaningful marriage.<P>Another need, too, would seem to be BG's need for time. Dr. Harley recommends at least 15 hours a week (and more than that following an affair). Your time on the computer violates that need.<P>I, too, write (poetry, fiction and technical e-commerce). But in the larger scope of things, it boils down to this: what is more important in my life? Difficult, I know, when the Muse strikes and the need to set paper to pen pounds in the veins. (By the way, if you are establishing a poetry Website, I would be interested.) I find my writing efforts can be channeled into "my time" and not intrude on our time. My writing and other time comes only after our 15 hours a week is fulfilled. (Believe me, with traveling for work, 3 kids, and other life-intrusions, it is quite a challenge to meet the 15 hours a week ... and in all honesty, some weeks we don't succeed, but that is the goal toward which we strive.)<P>So, in parting: light the candles, get a nice bottle of wine and seclude yourselves in your room. Do the questionnaire together (but separately); answer her questions in a caring, loving manner; and ask yours too. Begin practicing the rules of honesty, care, time and protection.<P>It is a long road. But it is a parkway, not a speedway. You are now at the toll booth, having both paid a heavy price to travel it. To make the toll worthwhile and reach a more fulfilling, rewarding destination is the goal to which you both should be striving. God willing, you will get there.<P>Godspeed and good luck to you both,<BR>STL

zorweb and seenthelight:<BR>thank you for all of your time spent writing and listening<BR>to us. you were right when you said that a person takes what they need and what is going to help them. (advice wise) reading other's posts and reading responses to my own has done a great deal for me and i get a feeling of things getting better and eventually coming to an end. (the feelings after the A) <P>today is a much better day and i am excited for my H because of his new website, even though it is not finished yet, he is just beginning. <P>i am not bothered that he is on the inet, like he might think. i am very very excited for his poetry site. its the thought that for a year he was speaking with OW while i was at work and instead of talking or calling me at work, he was talking on the phone or inet with her. it is also upsetting knowing that while i lay in bed alone, he was telling her sweet nothings and what a wonderful woman she was. that is what bothers me. everything about the inet in the past has been a lie. sure, he had other friends on the inet, but he did not have and emotional and physical A with them. but it was the one that he did have the emotional and physical A with and the things that i now know they did and told each other that still leaves a lump in my throat and an empty feeling in my stomach. but today, i can say this all the while i am feeling stronger.<P>the physical A is a horrible thing. to think OW was comfortable enough to come into someone else's house and bed<BR>and lay there naked while H took picutres. it all just turns my stomach. of course she was invited and thought i was a bad person and that H was totally mistreated and unloved. i will not deny that this aspect of the A hurts and goes very deeply. but there were two parts to the A.<BR>the emotional A was just as horrible as the physical A.<BR>my H was talking and telling her his deepest darkest hope, thoughts and dreams, while i lay in bed or was working. <BR>to think he went that deep with OW leaves the same feelings in my body. i am sure other BS feel the same. maybe for some WS it is just the sex, but it goes alot deeper for the BS. it gets very personal. i feel it was not just an attack on my sexual side but also on my personal side and the things that we should have bee sharing, someone else is part of that.<P>enough is enough though. i do feel better today. its amazing how at some times you can write the same horrible things down but feel stronger and better about them and at other times, it feels like d-day again. the mind and heart are mysterious things.<P>but to zorweb and stl....thank you for all of your time and hope and thoughtfullnes. it is so much appreciated. i think you both will help the both of us in the long run.<BR>i plan on reading more of harley's material later today.<BR>thank you and god bless. <BR> <BR>nolo's website is apoetshaven.com <BR>he has just begun, but for his first website, i think it looks very good. i hope to see you there one day.<P>thank you both very much. good luck to you and yours.<BR>you both sound like wonderful people and you deserve the best.<P>love bluegirl