Oh y'all. I tried. I really tried. I started so calmly and matter of fact. <P>When are you leaving. (July 1)<BR>When are you telling the kids? (doesn't know)<BR>What about the arrangements I wrote about in the letter I gave you? (they're okay.)<P>Then, I don't even remember why the conversation turned...I asked if he thought he'd be returning at the end of the summer. (not sure)<P>Has he budgeted out the money for the summer...I have taken care of this for 15 years and I am not worrying about it this summer---it's all his baby. (just looked at me funny.--he doesn't even know how much it takes to live on per month) No I don't keep him in the dark deliberately, he has just never taken responsibility for it...even this month--he was supposed to pay the bills---he just mailed them--three weeks late.<P>My only selfish demand---big, big LB. I KNOW. I KNOW! I don't want my children around her until we are legally separated. They are already confused. The last few weeks they have been asking to go to her house and play with her son. What am I supposed to say? Is this fair to them? He got really mad about this.<P>I got an ugly voice when I said it. He told me he didn't like my tone of voice. And, I said, yeah you're right, but it just hurts so much that you used them to shield your relationship with her. (He didn't have anything to say about that.) I don't want them confused any further. <P>Then, I tried to talk somemore about kids and how they were going to feel about him leaving. He doesn't want to hear it. My experience as a child of divorce means nothing. This will not affect them nearly as much as I expect it too...they aren't me and I can't know how they will react. (I know--he's going to have to experience the whole drama for himself to understand.)<P>Then he went off on a tangent on how even with him leaving I got to call all the shots. Wait a minute, I said the arrangements were up for negotiation...he said...you won't let me do it the way I want to. (He wants to be free to come and go as he pleases. Waltz in in the am, workout on the exercise equipment. Waltz out. Waltz in for bedtime and bathtime. Waltz out.) I said, I'm sorry...if you get to have a 'life,' so do I. I was left with parental responsibilities when my mom decided to leave my dad...I didn't get to do afterschool activities, dances, proms, etc. because I was busy taking care of my younger brother and sisters...I'll be d******d if you get to waltz in and out of your responsibilities and I'm left with 90% of custodial care. It will be as close to 50/50 as we can make it. He just wants it easy...not to be married anymore...bunch of crap. Sometimes so would I...we all would. But we can't just say...oops, this wasn't what I expected, so now I quit!<P>Finally, I asked what the whole house hunting thing was...did he expect to live in it with us? (No--he just wants to set us up in our own house before he moves somewhere else) The man is nuts, looney, certifiable. Several times today, as we looked at model homes, he talked about where "our" bed would go. Where his 'gym' would go. That we needed a three car garage for the three vehicles. How he wanted certain tile or carpet or color of paint on the wall. (Like if he's not going to live there, why should I care how he wants it?) He's either losing it or I am.<P>Then I said he had been leading us on all weekend with the house hunting thing. I said I was not going to be his excuse why he couldn't get things done. His children did not deserve to be his excuse, either. (MY H: There are too many distractions. I can't get anything done in this house. I don't want to be around you anymore.)<P>Then I told him he was running away. (MY H: Oops..I goofed, I told you I never wanted to be married. Why didn't you believe me?) Oh, maybe because you told me you loved me and missed me and wanted to still get married? I said you didn't make a vow in front of God and witnesses that you never wanted to be married....you vowed forever and you told me over and over and over and over for the last 11 years that we work it until it works out. (Yeah, I know...guilt and obligation...I told you---BIG LB.)<P>More ugly words as he was on computer. More crying. Finally I got keys and purse and left for an hour and a half. I went to a friend's and talked things over with her. <BR>Do you know that I no sooner had pulled up into the driveway that my cell phone rang and he said "Where the h*** are you at?" I wanted to say none of your d*** business and I just might not come home tonight. I considered it, but I won't do that to the kids. They were worried enough about where I was.<P>I'm in a better place. I'm just mad we have to live through all this and all he has to say is "I'm sorry I'm leaving and I'm sorry I ruined your life." Boy, I want to say so badly that it's not my life he's ruining...it's his. Why does experience have to be the best teacher? This whole thing is like watching a train wreck you can't stop. I HATE IT! I HATE IT! I HATE IT!<P>Cali<P>I have to add that they have ended their self-imposed exile early. I noticed her cell # in our redial and there was a new message. She wants him to meet her tomorrow morning. We're supposed to go to beach---hmmm. family or OW. I'll update you tomorrow on what he chose.<P><p>[This message has been edited by StrongerInCali (edited June 24, 2001).]

cali,<P>I'm so sorry you are having to go through this...<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{cali}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Cali, <P>You are doing better then I would, that's for sure. <BR>So you told him how you feel. I think he needs to know those things. You are human and being expected to put up with the most increadable cruelty. At least you have the strength to not let him come and go as he pleases.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hug}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I wish there were something real I could do for you. But this virtual support will have to do.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Dear Cali,<P>Your H is babbling in the fog again and is hurting all of you. I am sorry. Unfortunately there is not much to do but watch him go and fall. Yes, my H 'thought' he budgeted also. His budget included him not paying his bills for 4 months. The conflicting statements is an indication of this foghead talk. <P>Step back Cali and watch. You will hurt to see him go. Once he is gone, there will be some relief of the daily anxiety you have right now. Your ability to influence him will lessen but really he is already doing that to you. <P>This is the hard part where your patience will be tried. Focus on you and your family. Let him see what he is missing without you saying anything. If your kids have things to say to him or about him, let them. He needs to see the impact for himself. He is not appreciative of your words of warning on his affect on his children. Ow's child may also have choice things to say about your H to his dad. It goes both ways. <P>Hang in there girl, we are here for you.<P>L.<BR>

Hang in there Cali, I'll post a little something later to cheer you up. In the meantime. Just hang in there. Be patient dispite his strange behavior.<P>No your not crazy. I think he's lost his marbles a little bit with the house shopping thing, but hey I figure. Whatever keeps him out of the house, and away from "OP" is a good thing. Can't very well chat with her, when he's house shopping with you. So make sure you do that from now until next year, and plan A yourself, and he'll hit withdrawl on one of your house shopping adventures.<P>From both of us ((((((Cali))))))<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie

Cali - ditto Orchid.<P>It IS a train wreck you can't stop. It is very telling to hear about the house shopping. Proof enough that he is so far out there that it's futile for you to try to reason with him. I know it's hard, but the more you can ignore his behavior, the better off you'll be.<P>If you get to the point of getting a legal separation, consider a stipulation that neither of you can have opposite sex overnight guests while you have the kids. I had this put in our separation and it worked, much to my wife's displeasure:<P>Her: Why did you have that limitation put in the separation?<P>Me: It's for <son's> best interest. I don't want him seeing you have <OM> spend the night in your apartment.<P>Her: I, er, would never do anything stupid like that!!<P>Me: <P>WAT

Oh Cali, I am so sorry to hear about this!<P>You were right to tell him the way you felt, he needs to know. He came back with all that sh*t because he's just trying ton convince himself what he is doing is right. Your words will hit home when he thinks back, they will, it was worth it. <P>Cali, stay strong. Don't break your plan B like I did, okay? Promise me. Make sure he is clear about what needs to happen for him to come back. Just say something like "Just remember my letter if you ever change my mind."<P>This next week is going to suck, bigtime. Do me a favor and make plans for each day that does not include your H, okay? I mean it. Make plans and no matter how bad you feel - go do them! I know you still want to plan A your best, but it will be tough on you. It's okay if you explode, we're here, k?<P>Don't worry in a week or two, you'll have a much different tune you are singing! You won't believe the relief to finally not have to deal with his insanity! Yes, you will miss him and still have ups/downs, but you know what? He's the a**ho*e, he's the one screwing up his life. He's not screwing up yours or the kids. YOU WILL SURVIVE AND MAKE THEIR LIVES WONDERFUL, and you will do it without him. <P>We'll both just pray (for both of us) that it does not last that long and the fog lifts...<P><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<HbH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Cali,<P>You're doing good for the most part! You really need to stop asking ?'s about when and how long.....he can't answer you right now and it's making him feel worse about it all. Do not react,be proactive and ACT for yourself and the kids.Forget about what he's doing, what he has planned and how he's going to manage and just do what you have to do to make sure you and your kids have what you need. He's seeing all this as controlling behavior. Bottom line......he's gonna do what he's gonna do, you might as well come out looking and smelling like a rose.<P>You are right on target about your children! Do not waver and let him come and go as he pleases. If you do that you take away the natural consequences of his behavior and you will not get the relief you need and should have with him living somewhere else. I'm telling you, it will not last! His behavior and words hold out incredible amounts of hope. You are seeing what is going on deep inside when he's out looking at homes, of all things! That's the REAL H coming through. The A is a puff of fantasy and relief from the real world.<P>You need to keep in mind that the separation will be of shorter duration if you let him suffer all the natural consequences of his decision to move out. If you save him,bail him out, feel sorry for him and try to make things easier for him, he will be having the best of both worlds and you do not want to be any part of allowing him to have that.You can be loving and supportive and still not allow him to reek havoc in your life. My H wanted to do the same thing regarding the kids as your H wants to do, waltz in and out on his own whim. Absolutely not! If he's saying he doesn't want to be married anymore (I heard it too and here we are 21 months later,still as married as ever, and even better )then the separation is the perfect way for him to see and feel first hand exactly what a divorce will be like without actually going through with it. Actually he has given you a very important opportunity here....to save this marriage and family by having a trial run at divorce without actually getting one, but you have to make sure he gets an accurate picture of what it will mean to be divorced, only YOU can do that,he won't, he'll try to manipulate things to make it as easy as possible for himself and that will only serve to prolonging the fantasy life. If he has it his way he'll try to live out his "let's just be friends" and I think you want more and are not willing to settle for that after he's been deceptive and selfish.<P>If I were you, I would not buy into the the buying a house issue right now, it is much, much too risky. It also allows him to vaccilate back and forth between two worlds and he's made his choice and that is to move out. Save the house hunting as a wonderful thing to do when he comes back and is committed and he's willing to rebuild. It makes no sense, emotionally or financially to make such a huge step to build when he's saying and doing the opposite right now. By not consenting to participate in the house buying at this time you will be sending him a clear message that you are taking him at his word (doesn't want to be married)and that you have to decide what is best for YOU since he is primarily concerned about himself. I don't think many would recommend a major purchase like a house with the " threat" of a divorce looming in the future.....afterall that IS what he is telling you. You want to make it seem as if you are taking him very seriously, even though you know he is as mixed up as ever. Make this separation about taking care of YOU. You need to do everything you can to act "as if" you are divorced if you want him to get the most impact out of the wake up call moving out has the opportunity to give him. Hang in there! All the best to you.

Hi Cali,<P>One of my worst days was watching my husband move his stuff out - the house felt so strange without him. He took some of the furniture too (with my agreement), but it was weird seeing our now empty living room - just one chair left behind because he couldn't fit both of them in his apartment, the marks left behind on the carpet where his nightstand had been. Horrible. But you know - you get used to it. It still feels strange, still feels lonely...but there are also benefits. I can watch whatever I want on TV - or just turn it off and have peace and quiet to read or write my journals. There's much less washing and housework to do...I can take the kids to McDonalds and let them wear themselves out in the play area without worrying about getting home in time to cook the dinner. His side of the bed is now cluttered with painting and sketching stuff, journals, magazines...I can go to bed at 8pm if I want and listen to music and paint! The girls are easier to control and to get to bed now too - no TV noise, or their Dad losing his patience with them every 5 minutes!<P>Cali - you have to stand back and just let it happen. Concentrate on the advantages - those little pleasures you can give yourself for a while. Make a list of things you've always wanted to do, and try to do some of them - you deserve it. Use this time to Refresh, Repair, Rejuvenate yourself. It can be a good thing if you let it.<P>It's not the end - you know that already - but it CAN be the start of a new beginning for you. Some time spent finding 'Cali' again, enjoying your own company, gaining new interests.<P>Take care,<BR>hugs, Paint.

<"This whole thing is like watching a train wreck you can't stop."><P>That is the absolute truth! I agree with the advice of mthrrhbard completely. This house shopping is helping him complete his fantasy that everything is going to be ok and he isn't really going to hurt you or the kids.<P>I think he should see clearly that things are not the same and the consequences and pain he is causing. You are not interested in just being friends, hisbehavior does not classify itself to friendship. It is self justification, fantasy, moose brain worms, alien abuction, who knows? Whatever you do don't actually buy a house right now!<P>Don't fill this fantasy idea he has that all is going to be just a walk in the park and you and the kids will be so happy while he is being so selfish. You can draw that line of reality and still be loving. <P>To quote from mthrrhbard "You need to keep in mind that the separation will be of shorter duration if you let him suffer all the natural consequences of his decision to move out. If you save him, bail him out, feel sorry for him and try to make things easier for him, he will be having the best of both worlds and you do not want to be any part of allowing him to have that.You can be loving and supportive and still not allow him to reek havoc in your life. ". I couldn't have said it better myself.<P>

Sounds like a lot of good response here, and you already know about your LB so won't beat you up there. Your husband is going to a place I have not been, so not much insight to offer, also my kids are raised, and that changes things alot IMO (I am a member of the raise the kids first philosophy, so just hunkered down and did it). But I will say being firm on kids is ok, even the foggiest or determined ws recognizes that is fairplay (as long as it is fair, and not manipulative). Personally I (and the ow)intend to resolve (one way or another) our marriages as the fair thing to do, I really don't understand this concept of seperation and living with op, it is kinda foreign to any sense of morality at all. One may fall in love with op, but that comes with an obligation to make your present life right before choosing another life. The timing is awful for all involved, part of being messy humans. But choosing to seperate for purpose of living with op I don't really understand, and makes me wonder whether your H is worthy of your love at all. On the other hand, I must say (in being forthright) that you still are exhibiting controlling behaviours, and as I have said to you and others, those of us ws who feel emotionally imprisoned react strongly, and oftentimes irrationally (or so it seems) to any control efforts. To you it seems reasonable, logical, etc. and maybe it is, but to us it looks like manipulation and judgement. Good luck. I feel for you, and all the other BS who can't understand what is happening, shed a lot of tears here, it is a train wreck.... but the pieces get picked up, the train put back on the track, and life goes on, as it always does, take it a day at a time, give the pain/confusion/fear to God, and try to focus on what you need to do, and do it.

Cali:<P>My heart goes out to you. Stay your course. It is not easy, but it is, ultimately, the course he chose (even if he doesn't like that he can't have an environment with no responsibilitites).<P>Having been in the fog, I can appreciate the fog you are now observing him being in. His actions will appear contrary, confusing and irrational. That is because they are. As for the LB's ... well, you are human.<P>No overall master plan to offer you, I'm afraid; just: Plan B, forthwith.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>zorweb and I will pray for you and the kids,<BR>STL

Hi Cali:<P>You know one of the first things you "finally" learn in all this mess is to quit trying to talk to WH....it is simply an exercise in futility. Until they are ready to talk.<P>Don't worry, that time will come...but it's not now...and you're right...this is like a train....but not like a train wreck but more like a runaway train....and you're trying to put roadblocks of reason in the way and there are none that will stop this train. And that's understandable because you can see the danger and he can't...not now.<P>The rationality of the WS brain is incredible...what he is doing with the house is unbelievable....setting you up apparently so he can run in and out like a teenager...how can they can reason that this would work? <P>It is true that once he has moved out things will get better for you and will settle down a bit....I don't regret a moment asking my WH to leave....it has been the best thing for both of us....under the circumstances. He is being put through the wringer now and that is just what he needs. And what your WH needs too....and OW is probably just the person to do it for him.<P>So, try not to LB too much....stay confident in your attitude that this is a mistake for him but that since there appears to be no changing his mind....you will not continue to argue with him about it. You are the calm reasonable one here....someone has to be....the one who will be steady in your commitment to the marriage...willing to do what is necessary once he "QUITS BEING OUT OF HIS MIND"...of course you don't say that...just think it.<P>You're doing fine...this is very hard...just remember it's not over.<BR> <BR>Faye<p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 25, 2001).]

Cali<BR>I can't believe how similar our situations are. I also am dealing with the ups and downs of this emotional rollar coaster ride. It is incredible. <BR> Hang in there, you will be in my prayers.

StrongerInCali:<P>I see a lot of support and good advice in this thread. Throw mine in with it.<P>I am glad to see that you were strong in standing up for what is right for you. StrongerInCali will only continue to get Stronger.<P>I am sorry for what you are going through.<P>So much to say, yet most of it has already been said in thread.<P>I am here for you.<P>LibbyDoe

Cali,<BR>Thanks for the advice about trying to limit conversations with H....I have come to realize the truth in that. It just doesn't get anywhere. It is difficult tho--seems like if I could just get him to think....

Thanks all for advice and support.<P>terri and z {{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}} back.<P>Orchid, HurtbyHubby, Paint, Mthrrhbard, WAT, buffy, StheL, NY, SnL--your words of wisdom mean more than you know.<P>[H]/Aeon Blue: you seem to understand him in a way I can't; thanks for the insight. I pray he will take the path you have taken.<P>LibbyDoe: Thanks sis. I appreciate your checking up on me.<BR>Love you .<P>MnM--I hope that both our rollercoaster rides slow down a bit soon.<P>I was in a bad spot yesterday; as evidenced by my 'thoughts,' I'm a bit more resigned today with some sarcasm thrown in for good measure. I love how he tells the boys that they can or can't do something next week....hmmm...you gonna be here to enforce that edict? <P><BR>Cali