Help, folks.<P>I don't have time to list details, but need to say in brief that the love I have found with the OM in my life is truly remarkable. It meets every one of my top 5 emotional needs and is unconditional (despite many circumstances that have revealed our weaknesses to each other). We are so much alike and so mutually crazy about each other we feel like "clones." However, obviously I'm already married (the marriage has two MAJOR flaws, one of which there truly doesn't appear to be any hope for, though I should add there are great pluses on my H's side...he's a very good/reliable man and a wonderful father). I'd like us to be in Plan A, but my husband isn't up to speed on this yet, though I've been encouraging him to read the book.<P>Is this love I've found the ultimate deception? (It's been six months now, and I truly can't see any way in which it isn't the real thing--the OM is SO open, authentic, expressive, sincere and proves his loyalty to me over and over daily). I feel like I'm holding the winning lottery ticket, only I'm reluctant/guilty about cashing it in because it's stolen. I need to either make a resolution to give up the only person who has ever really understood, respected and cherished me (OM), or try to make something work (with H) that never really did very well.<P>I am 100% honest and sincere (and have been toward my H about this since it first started, unlike most WS's), so please...no snap judgments or sassy language...I'm looking for real, careful insight and wisdom. BTW, my H is having a hard time deciding whether to work on our marriage, which makes it doubly hard for me to resolve to do the "right" thing, against the powerful force of the other love I've come to know (i.e., I'm not able to picture right now what we might have to look forward to even if we worked hard on the marriage).<P>To those with helpful, loving responses (especially other WS's who might understand my situation), I thank you in advance for your posts....<P>~PB<BR>

Read Surviving an Affair. My H thought it was a bunch of crap...what he especially hated was that he found his 'relationship' with OW was not unique. He hated that the scenarios were 'formulaic.'<P>Early stages of love are all very similar. I would bet that if you looked at old pictures and read old letters, you would remember some of the same old feelings from the beginning of your relationship with H. I found cards to and from my H that had all the same stuff in it about him being my hero, my soulmate. He wrote that I was the woman of his dreams....He refutes it all now, but the cards and letters don't lie.<P>Read the stuff about the 'lovebank.' If you and H give it a shot, it can work....there have been too many people on these boards for whom it has happened.<P>My H is still deep in fantasy land. He is going to have to leave his family, his children to be with her to see if it is true love. Though he's masking it as 'not wanting to be married anymore.'<P>Good Luck,<P>Cali

First things first.... Do you and your husband have any children?<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Thanks, Cali.<P>Unfortunately, what you wrote truly doesn't apply to me. I married my best friend because I was afraid of love--I believed the stuff about "you'll learn to love him" which is nonsense in my experience. Either the chemistry is there or it isn't. My husband and I had fun together (yes, I have fond memories) and important values in common, but the OM and I can communicate on ALL levels, deep, high, wide, on and on, AMAZINGLY well...we soar intellectually together, are both passionate about life, and the chemistry is unmistakable. I appreciate your thoughts anyway.<P>Zorweb,<P>Yes, we have an 8-year-old daughter, who is an EXTREMELY important consideration in this messy situation.<P>~PB<BR>

cascadeofwater you wrote:<BR><B>Unfortunately, what you wrote truly doesn't apply to me. I married my best friend because I was afraid of love--I believed the stuff about "you'll learn to love him" which is nonsense in my experience. Either the chemistry is there or it isn't. My husband and I had fun together (yes, I have fond memories) and important values in common, but the OM and I can communicate on ALL levels, deep, high, wide, on and on, AMAZINGLY well...we soar intellectually together, are both passionate about life, and the chemistry is unmistakable. I appreciate your thoughts anyway.</B><P>WARNING. WARNING. THIS IS NOT A LOVING, HELPFUL RESPONSE. IT IS AN ANGRY RESPONSE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.<P>Okay, take this with the knowledge that I am really ticked off at my H right now. (read my post---Just need a little help from my friends.) OOOPS. I thought I'd learn to love him. OOOPs. I really didn't mean my vows. OOOPs. I found someone I can love better. OOOPs. This didn't work out the way I thought it would. My bad. That's what I am 'hearing' you say. Why does it matter 'why' you married? You did. You did. Did you promise forever, until death do you part? Or did you change vows to say, until I meet someone I have real chemistry with, that I can communicate with on all levels? Pullease. I am so sick to death of excuses and blame and back pedalling. Call a spade a spade. You're tired of how hard it is in your marriage and you want an easier relationship. Well life isn't easy. You don't always get what you want. If you play this out...just ask your daughter when she is grown how she felt.<P>I can tell you that I still have bouts of anger with my mom for leaving my dad for her 'soulmate.' Then, she found 'soulmate #2."<P>I know this will probably go right over your head. But it made me feel a little better.<P>I still wish you luck and that you make a very thoughtful decision.<P><BR>Cali<P>

Cascade,<P>Real love or toxic love? There is a comparison list that shows both. Please take a look at it. <P> <A HREF="http://www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_13.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_13.htm</A> <P>Make sure you are going into this with your eyes wide open. If you are willing to throw away your vows, commitment, family ties, love for family and friends, everything you have in your life for this 'great guy', then you may be setting yourself up for a big disappointment which has lead some to ending up with nothing but misery. In addition, if this 'great relationship' is that good, you should have the support of all who love you and even the OM's family. Remember, this is suppose to be a great thing. <P>This is not meant as a flame. This is meant to make sure you are viewing reality and not in fantasy land. Your story, sounds more like a story book than reality. <P>L.

Cali,<P>I'm sorry you were triggered and I sympathize with the fact that you have a lot of anger. However, your situation and mine are very different, and, as such, I don't find your venting at all useful, though I'm sure you have much to offer others whom you respond to in this forum.<P><BR>Orchid,<P>Thank you for your kind but firm response--point well taken. Here's a sample of an e-mail from my OM today...I know him very well, and the meaning attached to his words here is very rich, deep, real, and I believe lasting. Thoughts?<P>"You are beautiful, you know. You are also smart, funny and compassionate. You understanding my loving heart because yours is the same. Both of us are able and willing to work hard at openness and communication---even when, especially when, the going gets tough. All serious, real relationships have their "whitewater" times (I suspect that stems directly from the fact that we're all flawed beings....), but you and I have proven we are able to "run the rapids" together and come out stronger than before. I'll do everything I can to keep us out of the whitewater, and I know you will too, but it is extremely comforting to me to know that we have the love, commitment and communication skills to find our way back to each other in such times. I happen to think that over time we'll find ourselves having to deal with "whitewater times" less than most couples, even those with decades under their belts. Why? Because we understand each other at a level so profound as to be spooky, and because we combine that understanding with huge reservoirs of compassion and respect. There are other things, even deeper: on the spiritual plane, you too are a creature of a questing heart and an enquiring mind. For you, as for me, the spiritual quest is real. I don't have to try and explain such things to you. Rather, I can share the quest with you. It's hard to find words to convey how important to me that is. Then there's a fact so amazing to me that I find it hard to get my mind around it: I am not the least bit lonely when I'm with you, my other half. You are the first PERSON in my life with whom that has been true. You truly are remarkable, and I am truly blessed." <P>~PB<BR>

This is the 4th time i've re-written this post. Normally, I have atleast a few nice things to say, but appearently not tonight, and not on this thread. I've got nothing constructive to say, other then. ("I don't see how your circumstances are different from any of us xWS's")<P>I will be leaving now.<P>[H]

Well Cascade you are flattered. Those kinds are words and even more were written by my H to the OW. Oh yes, he meant them. They made plans (both leave their families, move out to the mountains, travel, make lots of money, etc.) on all their verbabl communication. They created a world where no one else existed but them. <P>Guess what? It was not a real world. In order for that environment to exist, there had to be an removal of reality. How long have you 2 been in this mode? Are you both married? With children? <P>Let me give you my perspective. I am married (yes despite all those words, I am still married) to my H. He had a 10 month A with OW, ending this month (trial period for us). In that time, those words went from e-mail to phone in about 3 weeks, EA to PA in about 2 weeks after that. By the time I found out 3 months later, OW claimed to be preg. Now H was in a bind, he claimed he loved OW but did not want to hurt his family. Hmm..... could he do both? OW thought he could. It was simple for her. Just leave the family, tell them they are better off without H since he 'loves' OW based on words and sex. What acts of love did they actually do besides words and sex? None. In fact, H did not know OW's name for 2 months. I found out where OW lived before he did. OW 'who claimed to be honest with H', would not allow H to her home with some sort of 'privacy claim'. Really? H was coming home on the weekends and even moved back in twice in 3 months. Hm....<BR>Oh, I can go on but I hope you get the picture. <P>Digest these words, give me your feed back if you want. <P>L.<BR>

CofW:<P>I am speaking from experience here, as a betrayed spouse (BS), and more recently, as a recovering wayward spouse (WS): so I judge not, as I have been judged and found wanting; nor do I ridicule, for to do so would be to ridicule the hurt I have caused in my current marriage. (Besides which, the Fates are fickle, and why tempt them?) That being said:<P>Harboring the emotions for the OM has already clouded your reason. In this affair (physically consumated or not), you are living a fantasy. For in this relationship, life's day-to-day realities do not impinge upon your idyllic romance.<P>Consider these things:<P>(a) Have you read all of Dr. Harley's books? You mention emotional needs, so I assume you are familiar. If so, reread his works; if not: Read "Surviving An Affair" and take it to heart ... start immediately. Do you take a journey without looking at a road map? This is not a solo journey, either: everyone is along for this harrowing ride. The book will poignantly point out what you can look forward to and how to change your course. His other books will tell you how to affair-proof your marriage and meet each others' needs. You've taken some dangerous first steps, but have not embarked fully (I take it from your post that you are still at home), so there is yet hope.<P>(b) You profess about your husband that "he's a very good/reliable man and a wonderful father". What person intentionally sets out to destroy their best friend? Remember Julius Caesar: "Et tu, Brute?" You also state: "my H is having a hard time deciding whether to work on our marriage." Part of us always seeks self-justification, this statement is a screaming self-justification. Of course he is having a hard time: you betrayed him (hear that "Et tu, Brute" echoing in your head?). You also committed to build a life together. Something you have failed to do ... perhaps not out of willfullness, but out of ignorance ... see (d) below. Now you want to declare moral bancruptcy because you see this relationship as lacking emotional or some other capital. Yet have you treated your most prized investment wisely? Have you constantly deposited to this account? Obviously not. Again, it was probably nothing malicious: you both lack the knowledge and skill in fulfilling each others' emotional needs (EN). Get the books and both of you read them! Do you build a house without a blueprint? Get the books! Remember, none of us were given a class in high school entitled "How to Have the Perfect Marriage and Live Happily Ever-after 101" ... so it is a learning experience. Hopefully, we will all make it to the graduate level.<P>(c) Remember the "Grass is Always Greener" Syndrome. After reading Dr. Harley's works, you will understand that "love of your life" is enjoying all the benefits of depositing love units with none of the daily grind to detract from that. How will this "love of your life" fare in the daily grind? Not so well, my friend, for life's grist mill grinds exceedingly fine. The words "Fatal Attraction" should be glowing in your mind's eye. You also say: 'which makes it doubly hard for me to resolve to do the "right" thing.' The right thing is to find that same feeling in your marriage; to apply the energy and emotion to your husband. Will you ultimately be happy with the OM? The short and long answer is no: after the romance is gone and reality hits you (like the light that IS a train in the tunnel), you will be right back where you are now, and remember, this person will know that you are capable of dumping him for the next "light at the end of the tunnel" so at a deep, fundamental level, he will never truly trust you fully. Come to think of it, I would not fully trust anyone willing to break up someone's marriage, either.<P>(d) Have you and your husband done all you can do? No. You state: 'or try to make something work (with H) that never really did very well.' I have been to marital counseling, spiritual counseling, etc. in my previous marriage: none of them addressed EN... again, both of you need to read Dr. Harley's books ... the core of it all is learning to meet one another's EN. So, by admission, you have never worked on that aspect of your relationship. Without emotional needs fulfillment, you are correct in assuming that your marriage is doomed to fail: with emotional needs fulfillment, your marriage will succeed beyond your wildest imaginings. Get that "I'm OK, You're OK" thought process out of your head ... the thinking is "We are GREAT and I will do everything humanly possible to keep it that way". To steal a line from the movie "Armageddon": Get the book, get the book, get the G-damned book!" Without both of you meeting each others' EN, it isn't a train ... it will be a cataclysmic comet-like impact equivalent to the emotional devastation (again citing a movie line) of "10,000 nuclear weapons". A nuclear winter you and your family do not not need to suffer needlessly. On the positive side ... while you are buying Dr. Harley's books (and, no, I do not get a commission, I have been rewarded with the opportunity to build an enduring marriage), also pick up "1001 Ways To Be Romantic" by Gregory Godek (no commission here either ... just a lot of fulfillment for us both): it is easy to "love" for love is an emotional state: romance is the art of physically expressing that emotion. Romance plus meeting each others' EN = an enduring, fantastic relationship. You don't have to be Albert Einstein to do this kind of math. And you most assuredly shouldn't being staying after school somewhere else doing that math, either. While on a "studious" note, you mention the "chemistry" between you and the OM. Try trinitrotoluene, it is just as explosive and just as dangerous (and imagine, they named a peace prize after its inventor). Also, in a chemical sense: what you are experiencing in your affair with the OM is a suffusing of your brain with "feel-good" chemicals (I won't bore you with the technical details) ... you have addicted yourself to this behavior. You need to transfer this addiction to your husband (again, romance + meeting ENs = wonderful marriage). Both of you should enjoy reading Godek's book.<P>(e) You are creating a lose-lose situation for everyone, including yourself. I have three devastated children from my previous marriage (she left us for another man), and my current wife has a child from a previous marriage who has problems as well. This course of action will have a profound and lasting impact on all of you for life. My father left when I was 12 and the turmoil that it created exists to this day ... 34 years later. You WILL feel guilt, regret, shame and more. As you said: 'the love I have found with the OM in my life is truly remarkable. It meets every one of my top 5 emotional needs and is unconditional (despite many circumstances that have revealed our weaknesses to each other). We are so much alike and so mutually crazy about each other we feel like "clones."' What you have found is an escape, a fantasy ... because neither you or your husband are fulfilling each others' EN. You do not state whether the OM is married or single, but the bottom line is: he doesn't have to go far to have his needs met, all he has to do is clone yours. Get Dr. Harley's books if you do not already have them ... finishing reading this and go to Barnes and Noble or other nearby bookstore. Lock yourself away and both of you read them. Then put them into practice. I cannot emphasize enough: DO IT NOW!<P>If you both approach your marriage following Dr. Harley's tenets, you will discover what you seem to have forgotten: you married this man because you love him. And you will also learn that it is not impossible to recapture it.<P>I read the email you posted sent by the OM. Remember the words of Samuel Johnson: "He who would be swayed by mere words is but a desk to be written upon." What trials have the two of you endured? What have you built? The answer is short: nothing. You have been in a cocoon, caught in an idyllic fog. It is easy to feel that heady feeling when there are no downs to offset it.<P>Godspeed and luck to you all ...<BR>STL<P>You're still reading?! DO IT NOW!!!<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited June 25, 2001).]

fairy-tale dreams...<BR>the same you believe.<BR>are always the means...<BR>to cover the lies.<BR>of broken promises...<BR>to your blind eyes.<P>wake up from your slumber.<P>Aeon Blue

WAY to "foggy" in here to post a sincere reply.<P>Personally I do not see how posts like this help BS's at all.<P>Jab

cascade,<P>I really can't add much to what has been said except to say that if you and your husband will try the principles of MB with honesty and good will, and you sever all contact with the OM forever, you will find yourself just as much in love with your husband as you think you are now with the OM. There's really no way I know of to argue you into this, but it's true. Chemistry isn't some mystical thing that some people just have and others don't. It can be learned. And if your child is important to you and your husband, isn't it worth learning with each other?<P>Ishmael

Excuse me but what your doing only has one name, ADULTRY!!! <P>Get used to the name or get lost.<P>Its not about anger IT IS A SIMPLE FACT!<P>There, now I feel better!

Hi Cascade of Water,<P> I know you think you and the OM are differnt but all of us here have heard this same story over and over. My H said the EXACT words to the OW.....she was his "other half", the communication was unbelievable, he only married me since I seemed like good wife material.He was absolutely besotted with her and yes was "deeply in love"(at the time anyway)<P>Where are we now? We are in recovery and he is mortified at what he said , did and what he almost threw away (his kids and family).We are both becoming very happy and he treats me like a queen.<P>I'm not judging you but you need to read ,read, read (the Harley books, Private Lies by Frank Pittman) and see what your chances are of this working out....(NOT GOOD)....and then there is the damage to your daughter. <P>The longer you fence sit, the more your H may decide it's time to walk away...... You CAN recover and have a fulfilling marriage with your H......it happens all of the time here on MB......LU

An aside to Jaberwocky:<P>Seems to me, that in order to rebuild a marriage (which is what this site is about) it takes two. So this site isn't about just BS's ... it is about BS's and WS's overcoming the A to rebuild their relationship. And yes, WS's who post here are often in "the fog". It is up to us to help lift the fog. Where would fog-bound sailors be, if not for foghorns?<P>CofW:<BR>Hear the sonorous bellowing calling to you in the fog?<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited June 25, 2001).]

I told my no-longer-WS, during the separation, that if she<BR>had found a better man, I would have let her go.<P>But this is a catch-22. A better MAN never would have broken two marriages to pursue my wife. A better FATHER<BR>never would have put his children or any other children<BR>through this turmoil. It was this realization (that she<BR>was moving down in the world) that helped me realize that<BR>something was very wrong in her - depression and very<BR>low self esteem. Of course, it took me six weeks of<BR>zoloft (100mg/day) to believe that I was not the scourge<BR>her denial insisted I was... Hence, began the rebuilding.<BR>Of both of us.<P>Bama

Hi cascadeofwater,<P>I think I remember your name... possibly I've written to you before ~ I like the name, it signifies peace to me. Unfortunately, it sounds like you have no peace. It's a shame.<P>I have been a WS, and a BS too. I'm divorced from the man I was married to for 20 years, after 18 months of trying to make things work (crud, 18 months?, more like 18 years... but I digress). I suspect I have something to offer you.<P>I'm not going to tell you that what you feel for the OM is not real love. Even our resident MB-expert (Lostva) says that her H *truly loved* his OW. Now, he no longer loves the OW, he *truly loves* his wife. Miracles happen around here on occasion! <P>For me, I honest-to-God believed that I loved the OM. I really did. In hindsight, I didn't, and I mean that sincerely. It's just that -- ta da -- he met my needs, and my then-H did not. As I was going through the divorce, I met someone else, and am now married to him. I have a rather unique (although I suspect not **that** unique in the world, but here on MB) way of looking at things. <P>Just yesterday, I was thinking about everything (as I am prone to do) and I thought about a few questions: What was it about my ex-H that ended the marriage in my mind? What was it about the OM that attracted me enough to break my marriage vow (after 18 years of marriage)? What is it about my H that made me want to marry him? <P>I came to a few conclusions, and the first one is so not-PC, but here goes: most men are pretty much the same. <BR>Now, don't get me wrong -- there are differences, and they can be huge. Maybe I <B>should</B> say that most <I><B>people</I></B> are the same at their core... sigh... I don't know... <P>...but what I realized is this...<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE>The reason I divorced my (now-x)H is because I was hurt and tired of the games. I couldn't love him without this big wall of crap and pain that couldn't be broken down. <P>The reason I loved the OM was because I had no history of abuse, of cheating, of pain, with him. In the end, of course all of that was there -- because cheating is a form of abuse. <P>My current (and hopefully final) H is morally and legally mine to love, but our beginnings were difficult at best. We met too soon, before the grieving process for our broken marriages had been completed. It was a mistake to get involved so soon, and it is one of my regrets.</UL><P>I say all of this to tell you to be very, very careful. You are playing with a lot of hearts here, and two in particular that didn't ask to be played with (your H and your OM's W). If you HONESTY AND TRULY believe that your marriage can't make it, I don't think you'd have come here. This is a marraige BUILDERS site, after all. So, I wonder... is there love for your H still? <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Dear Cascade: <P>You recently helped me in a thoughtful and compassionate response post, so I have a real hard time writing this. But, I'm going to be as frank and honest with you as I can, with the understanding that this is just MY "perspective". I've noticed that eveytime someone has offered you advice in above thread, you dismiss it as not applicable -- so, you may not be willing to see what you don't want to see. <P>In my opinion, the feelings you have for OM are primarily driven by your reactivated hormones. I give you credit for recognizing that this even as a possibilty. In your situation, 99% of the time, the excitement and thrill of the affair over-rides all sensable thought. Prediction: you will eventually fall "out of love" with this new man and will regret the damage done to your family. <P>You didn't say whether you'd actually had sex with this OM, and whether your husband knows -- IMO, this would be is a big, big factor. If you betrayed him with a PA, and I were in your husband's shoes, I'd have accepted that "it's over" and would be methodically and secretly making a case for full custody of your daughter. An EA is s different animal (in my book). <P>Some questions: Do you really want to build a life with the kind of man who would have an affair with another man's wife???? This is a MAJOR red-flag indicating questionable character. How are you going to feel after a couple years when he gets bored with you and decides to meet the emotional needs of another fragile soul???? And, what are you teaching your daughter with this behavour??? She WILL model you. Do you really want such a man (IMO, a total low-life) raising your daughter??? <P>>>> "I married my best friend" <P>To be honest (again - it's just me), it is probably better to marry and build a life with a true friend who is compatable than someone who you fall deeply "in love" with, but who is not compatable as a life partner. <P>Advice: If you truly are unhappy with your husband consider "what is best for your child". The true answer my be painful and selfless. If you decide you just can't live with H anymore - do it the honorable way - get the OM out of the picture - then, separate/divorce as civilly as you can (BTW, you have a better chance of custody this way too). This will allow you to make decisions with a clear head, unaffected by the hormonal chemistry that's driving you now. Consider your child's interests first ... this may include not having a "man" in your life AT ALL to split your love & attention. If you "have to have a man", date around and try to meet someone who's truly compatable for the long haul - usually, this means dating long enough to get past the "hopelessly in love" stage. <P>That said - Best of Luck to you. <P>And, if you decide to go with this OM, I wish you both happiness and hope I am 100% wrong. <P>Keith

OK MY 2 cents. You stated that your H does not know if he wants to work on the marriage, Well you do not seem a woman who wants to either. What is it that you want?? Does your other man want to fix his marriage??it is easy to mistake care and " attention" for love, even true love, But if you want to be with him, why in the heck are you on a MB site, go to a site that will embrace your decision make it seem like RIGHT, which is what your asking for. I will not validate your adultery, and frankly think you are in a deep fog. It seems you are waiting for the post to come that will pat you on your back for finding " true love" and every one that does not you say it does not fit you!! Well most of these people know from where they speak, and i am sure your situation is not THAT NOBLE as to be the only one like it. In my opinion, if your really hate the marriage your in, then GET OUT OF IT before you find a place to land, because in most cases your landing will not be as soft as you think. <BR>Maine