Cascade, I know a young lady who used to post here. I wish she would come by every now and then because she could give you her story firsthand, but she is very busy preparing for the baby she's expecting WITH HER HUSBAND after ending, and recovering from, her affair.<P>This young lady's husband has a great many hobbies that were eating up a lot of his time. He is a good, decent, solid man, but not "exciting." At the time, he was ambivalent about children, something she wanted very badly. She had an affair with a guy at work, a smooth talker who said all the right "romantic" things. When she came here, the guy had just broken it off "because he couldn't leave his son", or so he said; and yet he still kept her on the string, mooning about how wonderful it would be if they could have a baby together, yada yada.<P>To make a long story short, she went through an agonizing withdrawal. Every time he contacted her, she'd e-mail me asking me to set her straight. Which I did, because I am nothing if not a straight talker. Time went by, and she began to work on putting the energies she put into the affair into her husband...and lo and behold, her H started to change. He was more understanding, more courteous. She developed some interests of her own. Then he decided he was ready for a child after all. They had some problems getting there, but just as she was ready to undergo treatments, she became pregnant. <P>She is just over 3 months along now, and believe me when I tell you, she is completely changed. Gone is the little girl mooning over romance novels and a smooth line. Now she's a grown woman, ready for a mature marriage and a family. I am so happy for her, and so proud of her, I could just bust my buttons.<P>Cascade, this could be you.<P>If you want to read some of this young lady's story, look in the archives of this forum and the "read only posts" for posts by "Hummingbird."<P>She is a success story, and you can be too.

Oh, wow, folks, I put my message on here hoping for a few responses and boy did I get them, running the whole human emotional gamut from anger to pain to hope! :-) Thank you to everyone.<P>I'm sorry I couldn't reply earlier--I haven't been online for about a week for various mundane reasons. Don't know if anyone is interested in picking up this thread again, but I feel a need to dash off a few partial answers, anyway.<P>First of all, as it probably is with most of you, there is so much more to me and my life and my situation that I am not comfortable sharing online (I'm talking reality here, not any excuse), and I have most appreciated those of you who have that understanding...even the most experienced of professional counselors would hesitate a long time before jumping to the kinds of conclusions some have made, especially without many facts (I'm talking about specifics to do with me, not MB principles, which I am wanting to try, if my husband will let me, or I wouldn't be here). Once again, thank you to those of you who haven't done that...you lend yourselves credibility so that your words are helpful, or at least thought-provoking to me.<P>I have read "Surviving An Affair" and the EN book. I have been reading this web site for about a month.<P>Some of you asked his status, so I will tell you...the OM has been separated from his soon-to-be ex for five years (after a long period of procrastination, to avoid more abuse from her, he recently initiated the divorce paperwork). He hasn't seen her in that amount of time (different coasts). <P>STL, you highlighted a very important point "everyone is along for this harrowing ride." I am aware of this and very concerned about it. <P>And to everyone, it is not my motivation to defend the OM here (I'm here because it has never been my hope or plan to break my marriage vows and I'm looking for possible solutions, which, by the way, nobody in my local area, including counselors, church leaders, etc., has offered...they have all advised my husband to leave me and divorce me). I need to say, though, that there wouldn't be any vacillating in me (about how/why to save my marriage) if there wasn't a strong case for the OM quite possibly being the best option in the long run--for my daughter too, though I'm not comfortable sharing particulars on this publicly (my husband has sincerely made an argument to me in favor of this idea as well). Like I said, I'm not going to make the case here (for one thing, my guess is it would trigger some people), but I'd appreciate the benefit of the doubt that there is a good one.<P>STL, I have been working on my marriage since year #1, reading books, trying to get us to marriage conferences, etc. My husband has been completely resistant to this (his parents' marriage was a terrible model for him...no communication, no affection, H took W totally for granted, etc.). He realizes now he should have tried to make investments in our marriage long ago, but now he thinks it's too late.<P>OK, everyone, I will risk posting this. STL and others made comments about chemistry (I'm very sorry to disagree with you, Ishmael, because I very much appreciated your kind post). I will state this again, and this is the heart of the problem in my marriage. Because of significant, though ancient, history in my life, I married my best friend, someone I was NOT attracted to in the least, out of fear. In my naivete, I genuinely thought this would change after marriage. It did NOT, despite 17 years of effort. This is NOT revisionist history. This is a fact I wasn't at all conscious of until the honeymoon, whereafter I put myself in a different type of "fog" than what Dr. Harley talks about...the type that believed if I worked hard at things, and maybe my husband did too, eventually attraction would develop. People...it's probably outside of most everyone else's experience here, but I know that for me attraction is not something I have for just anyone, even my best (male) friend who became my husband. It is extremely rare for me. I never told my husband pointedly "I'm not attracted to you at all" because I knew that would kill my marriage (it has now, by the way...this is the real problem, way beyond the OM, as both my H and I agree), and I loved him (brotherly type) and did not want to hurt him. What do you build on when there isn't anything to start from and there never has been?<P>The way I've been surviving all these years is to simply accept the fact that I'm not meant to have a physically bonded marriage, and I really thought I could do a marriage like that, yes, for a whole lifetime--after all, most of the other important things were in place (in fact, I still think I could do this--goodness knows, people have done it--but my husband, understandably, has expressed that he cannot go forward knowing what he now knows, as this is his #1 EN). Some of you might think I should have told my husband early on, but think about it--what would that have done other than end our marriage earlier, and why would I have wanted to do that?<P>Be gentle with me, people, this is incredibly hard stuff for me to share, and I don't expect many of you (if any) to have any "answers" for me...some encouragement and prayers are probably the best I can hope for right now.<P>I will write more soon, dear people. <P>In good faith,<P>Cascade of Water<P><BR>

A few more responses here, from the original author, on this week-old thread, if anyone's still interested.<P>Nyneve, thank you so much for sharing from your life--very thought-provoking to me. I do love my husband still (it has always been phileo type) and I am open to any help/hope, but ideas for passion/romance are lost on me, as I have never had this with my husband (at best I could *tolerate* close physical contact with him), tried for years to create it, and can't imagine how to pull it out of a hat now either.<P>Keith101, thanks for your input, which I need time to process. BTW, you said something about my dismissing advice from people every time, saying it is not applicable--allow me to respectfully point out that that is an exaggeration. :-) I did so perhaps twice at the most, but now that I have posted more and you have more information, maybe you can understand why this was a true response on my part. And especially, thank you for your good wishes. :-)<BR>Oh, there's your second post. Thank you brother!!<P>ConfusedPuppy, I appreciate the way you stick to the point. If my H told me he really wants out of the marriage, and that's his decision, I would let him go. If the situation were that he had found the love of his life and wanted to leave me, I would have questions and concerns and would want to make any efforts possible, but ultimately I would not fight him. All I want is the best for him, as I do for everybody.<P>PlainJane and Djinn, my husband has known about the OM since the very beginning when it was a one-sided attraction on my part and I moved to exit the OM's life, but the OM offered a friendship, which I badly needed and my husband didn't see the harm in at the time (neither did I). In a matter of weeks the feelings were obviously mutual. I am imagining knowing so much has made things extra hard on my H, but I could not be deceptive and it has also probably been at least partially a cry for help on my part. Two things were happening early on...the "fog" I'm sure was one (it's thinner now after six months), and the other was that my husband actually has been the one really on the fence, yet he's given me no hope, encouragement, etc., and instead has been very resistant to even talking.<P>Invictus, very, very interesting stuff. Thank you very much for taking the time to give me that input. I have only just read it through tonight and need time to process it.<P>Fairydust, thank you for the sobering story of your friend. What a nightmare, losing her kids and all. I am not one who says "it couldn't happen to me." God help us all!<P>DLM, thanks for your personal note. I would like to take you up on your offer to e-mail you personally, if that's still all right. It might take me a day or two before I get the chance, though.<P>Zorweb, thank you for caring about me...you are a "search and rescue" person, aren't you? Thank God for you, as there are many people in this world (myself included right now) who at one point or another are greatly in need of someone like you.<P>Robyn, thanks for sharing your situation. Life sure can be a stumper, can't it? I am working to that decision you're encourage me toward, believe me, and thanks for cheering me on.<P>Maggierose, you've got heart and determination. I sure never thought I'd be in this situation. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to encourage others someday the same way you do now, God willing.<P>Cjack, hmmm...I understand your point. I'm not sure what else to say, because there are many dissimilarities between your situation and mine that you're overlooking. The OM and I have true transparency and authenticity--I am not capable of anything else, and neither is he. We have had our eyes wide open and are mutually aware of our guilt that this is not a legitimate way to start a relationship, and it has hurt my H, which neither of us wanted to do--if you read some of my more-recent posts perhaps you can see a bit better how easy it was for us to fall into a relationship anyway. I'm not rationalizing or justifying. I just know we both got caught in this current, didn't see it coming, and now tough choices have to be made.<P>Rodger, I am not idealistic about relationships either, believe it or not. I am very aware of my own faults and the faults of the OM (I do see them and he sees mine...we are very open with each other). Perfection has never been a concept I can get my mind around, I am so aware of my shortcomings. I DO believe in marriage vows, in high standards, in commitment, in the ten commandments, etc. What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery? He did not condone the behavior. He told her "go and sin no more." Believe it or not, that is what I'm trying to do, but I am caught in a trap right now, and it's not all up to me (my H has to try too). Then I would be left with fewer choices, and I need to be careful to make the right one for the long term, especially keeping my daughter in mind.<P>DazedandConfused, thanks for your encouragement. I guess we'll see if mine will be a success story too!<P>OK, I need to end here. I am only able to read and post 3-4 times a week in the evening, but I sure appreciate the caring responses.<P>All the best to all of you,<P>~PB<P>

I think, if you wanna go, you wanna go. <BR>What's stopping you if this dream guy is so perfect? People run away from their lives and kids for less. So why don't you? What's holding you back? what is your excuse?

CoW:<P>Beyond everything that has been said, clarified, edified, et cetera-ified, the fundamental question you must answer to yourself is this: I have created the rationale for departing my marriage; yet I am hesitating, why?<P>If it is because you think you are causing your H less pain; rethink it, for a clean cut is ultimately less painful than a jagged, on-going wound.<P>There is a blunt, earthy expression: $h!t or get off the pot. After all this dialog, that is the position in which you now find yourself.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<P>

Cascade,<P>I responded to one of your other posts, I don't think you responded to that one. You made a couple of statements that sort of puzzle me.<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PlainJane and Djinn, my husband has known about the OM since the very beginning when it was a one-sided attraction on my part and I moved to exit the OM's life, but the OM offered a friendship, which I badly needed and my husband didn't see the harm in at the time (neither did I). In a matter of weeks the feelings were obviously mutual. I am imagining knowing so much has made things extra hard on my H, but I could not be deceptive and it has also probably been at least partially a cry for help on my part. Two things were happening early on...the "fog" I'm sure was one (it's thinner now after six months), and the other was that my husband actually has been the one really on the fence, yet he's given me no hope, encouragement, etc., and instead has been very resistant to even talking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Permit me some assumptions. First, I am going to assume that your H doesn't suffer from the affliction that you do, he can love, he is/was physically attracted to you, and he went into the marriage with love for you although he had a terrible role model in his own family.<P>Second, I am going to assume that you have been pulling away from him for some time, even before meeting OM.<P>If both or either of those assumptions are correct, can you imagine being your H and watching your affair with OM develop? Can you imagine hearing that your W feels no attraction to you? Can you imagine being told there is no hope? If you can imagine any of these things, then can you imagine why he might be on the fence? What can your H say to you? He knows he hasn't been able (through his own deficiencies and yours) to have you feel love for him. Yet he loves you or he would be gone.<P>He is facing losing his W and his children/child and yet he is told by you that his life was a lie for how many years? 17? <P>Cascade if you want your H's help, if you want him to have hope you must ask him for it. <P>As for the fence sitting, I am afraid you have this very wrong. You are the one on the fence. You climbed up there with OM and your H knows he has little to say about how this marriage will go. You may be interpretting his unwillingness to have simply divorced you for adultery as soon as it was obvious that you had broken your vows to him as fence sitting. But he didn't seek divorce. Why? My guess: he loves you. He wants his family together. <B>This isn't his call. It is yours. </B><P>Can you learn to love a man? Yes. Can you learn to have desire for a man? Yes. But you must deal with your own issues before it can happen.<P>As you can tell, I have no hard advice for you, because as you say you haven't told us much of what we need to know. You have asked few questions and you are deep into an affair. All of this makes you a very hard person to help, but people here can help, but only if you want the help.<P>I do hope however, you gain some perspective to what you are doing to your H. Most people wouldn't inflict this much pain on their enemies. As friends go, your present behavior leaves a lot to be desired. I do hope you decide what YOU are going to do.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

cascadeofwater,<BR>Yes my offer still stands, please email me anytime. We can talk more openly I think. I know this is so hard for you.<BR>debbie<BR>deblynne_45@yahoo.com is my email.

JL,<P>You asked:<P>>>Can you imagine being your H and watching your affair with OM develop? Can you imagine hearing that your W feels no attraction to you?<<<P>Yes to both, and it pains me greatly. <P>>>Can you imagine being told there is no hope?<<<P>Hmmm...don't know where you got this idea. I haven't thought or said this (granted, I can't SEE the hope, though). However, everyone else has been telling ME there's no hope, and I haven't been able to accept it yet...I want to find some!<P>>>Can you imagine why he might be on the fence?<<<P>Yes, of course. However, a little background.... My H has always been this way. For 17 years he has resisted working on our marriage with me, which has badly needed it. He is an EXTREMELY passive person. I have been the only proactive one, and it is exhausting trying to do both sides of the relationship. As contrary as this may sound in my current situation, I am at heart a relentlessly loyal person and I want to keep trying (it takes me a great deal of convincing to give up on something as important as my marriage). I take full responsibility for the situation I'm in. However, I know that right now I don't have the strength to get out of the affair AND work on my marriage without any help from my husband. Perhaps only WS's can understand this predicament.<P>>>Cascade if you want your H's help, if you want him to have hope you must ask him for it.<<<P>That is what I've been doing for six months now.<P>You also said you think I am fence-sitting and that he still loves me or he wouldn't have left. I believe you are probably right. However, I don't want to stay in this situation, which is why I've been asking for help. It would help me a great deal if there was some effort, ANY effort, on my husband's part. Why is it that he talks about leaving but doesn't, and won't communicate, resists reading Harley's books, etc.? I'm the one who has been in a fog, yet I have known I was--like a lucid dream, trying to wake up. As soon as I can see the spot to jump to, I will. I am a proactive person. <P>>>Can you learn to have desire for a man? Yes. But you must deal with your own issues before it can happen.<<<P>Hmmmm...JL, I'm sorry, but even the Harleys have told me this may be impossible in our marriage (not all marriages are similar, I'm sure you must realize). If you are sitting on a great secret, though, please fill me in!!!<P>Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts with me, and God bless you also.<P>~C of W<P>

Cascade: You are asking for help, so I will attempt to help without judging. <P><B><I>You said: "I don't have time to list details, but need to say in brief that the love I have found with the OM in my life is truly remarkable. It meets every one of my top 5 emotional needs and is unconditional...etc."</B></I><P>I say: So far, this sounds like typical affair talk. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that you have met your "one true love".<P><B><I>You say: However, obviously I'm already married (the marriage has two MAJOR flaws, one of which there truly doesn't appear to be any hope for, though I should add there are great pluses on my H's side...he's a very good/reliable man and a wonderful father. I'd like us to be in Plan A, but my husband isn't up to speed on this yet, though I've been encouraging him to read the book.</B></I><P>My response: First off, you state the marriage has two MAJOR flaws, yet as far as I can make out, you only list one. And, I'm even confused as to what that one thing is??? Is it that you have no hope that your H can PLAN A you? Or that you have no hope that your H wants to try to save the marriage?<P>Have you considered Plan Aing him? Of course this would mean giving up your OP and investing 100% of yourself into your marriage.<P><B><I>You say: Here's a sample of an e-mail from my OM today...I know him very well, and the meaning attached to his words here is very rich, deep, real, and I believe lasting. Thoughts?</B></I><P>I say: It is a very beautiful letter...romantic, spiritual, moving. I would enjoy receiving such a letter. What a rush to imagine that I could have such a profound effect on another human being. <P>I'm curious which part you like the best, and why? And, no fair saying you like the entire letter.<P><B><I>You say: I am bere because it has never been my hope or plan to break my marriage vows and I'm looking for possible solutions, which, by the way, nobody in my local area, including counselors, church leaders, etc., has offered...they have all advised my husband to leave me and divorce me. </B></I><P>I ask: what have they advised you to do? Or has your H been visiting with these counselors 1:1??? Are you planning on attending counseling together? <P><B><I>You say: I need to say, though, that there wouldn't be any vacillating in me (about how/why to save my marriage) if there wasn't a strong case for the OM quite possibly being the best option in the long run--for my daughter too, though I'm not comfortable sharing particulars on this publicly (my husband has sincerely made an argument to me in favor of this idea as well). Like I said, I'm not going to make the case here (for one thing, my guess is it would trigger some people), but I'd appreciate the benefit of the doubt that there is a good one.</B></I><P>I say: A good reason for you and your daughter to leave the marriage??? Now I'm very confused. One can only surmise that there is abuse involved, of some sort. Yet earlier above, in your original post, you state that your H is a good man/loving father. Does this mean that H is physically or mentally abusing you? <P>Surely you're not refering to something as unimportant as money? Meaning that the OM can provide monetary things that your H cannot provide?<P>I appreciate the fact that you cannot post the details, but then again, how can one give you valuable advice without having all pieces of the puzzle?<P><B><I>You say: I will state this again, and this is the heart of the problem in my marriage. Because of significant, though ancient, history in my life, I married my best friend, someone I was NOT attracted to in the least, out of fear. </B></I><P>I say: Again, I'm confused??? You married out of fear of what your H would do to you if you didn't marry him? Or, you married to avoid something else which was causing you fear? It sounds as though your marriage was an escape from something you desparately wanted out of. <P>I'm sorry that you were unable to find a peaceful solution, many years ago, on your own.<P><B><I>You say: The way I've been surviving all these years is to simply accept the fact that I'm not meant to have a physically bonded marriage, and I really thought I could do a marriage like that, yes, for a whole lifetime--after all, most of the other important things were in place (in fact, I still think I could do this--goodness knows, people have done it--but my husband, understandably, has expressed that he cannot go forward knowing what he now knows, as this is his #1 EN). Some of you might think I should have told my husband early on, but think about it--what would that have done other than end our marriage earlier, and why would I have wanted to do that?</B></I><P>Perhaps you didn't want to end your marriage because you felt as if it was a safe haven for you. What I can't understand is why you no longer feel safe? Or perhaps you were never safe to begin with. Perhaps the marriage was only a better solution than the problems you previously faced?<P><B><I>You say: As contrary as this may sound in my current situation, I am at heart a relentlessly loyal person and I want to keep trying (it takes me a great deal of convincing to give up on something as important as my marriage). I take full responsibility for the situation I'm in. However, I know that right now I don't have the strength to get out of the affair AND work on my marriage without any help from my husband. Perhaps only WS's can understand this predicament.</B></I><P>I think I could understand if I could see the "whole picture". I think I understand that you never really loved your H like you knew you were capable of...as I stated before, I think you felt safe. And, for a while, I believe you felt that as long as you were safe that that would be enough for you.<P>Now you've experienced "more"....and you are no longer willing to settle for less than what's possible. To me, that's understandable. I think we all want the best for ourselves.<P>I also think that you're afraid to make a move. Although, I'm not certain why.<P>What exactly are you afraid of? Do you not trust in yourself, in your ability to judge others? Are you afraid that your OP may only be an illusion? That perhaps he may not be able to offer the safety that you've found so comforting over the years?<P>I can see the sadness and the confusion in your post. My heart aches for you. It's apparent to me that you are very torn.<P>I empathize with you. I believe that you attempted to make the best possible life for yourself. Only to find out that the life you have chosen has left you unfulfilled. I am sorry for your pain. <P>However, life doesn't come with guarantees.<P>Everything is a leap of faith.<P>Unfortunately, I feel helpless to you. Again, I don't believe I can give you any concrete information without the whole picture. I believe that what you are leaving out, is vital information.<P>Again, I advise you to share your situation with someone you trust-- so that you can unveil the entire situation to them.<P>I will include you in my prayers tonite...as I do all my MB friends.<P>Hoping you find your peace, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited July 03, 2001).]

Marie,<P>Thank you so much for taking the time to give me a lengthy, thoughtful response.<P>Many of your questions I could clarify simply by restating them to you with clearer language--I hope you don't mind terribly if I skip over most of those because I have limited time right now to answer.<P>However, many other points you make are very interesting and I will try to answer here.<P>You said:<P>>>Have you considered Plan Aing him? Of course this would mean giving up your OP and investing 100% of yourself into your marriage.<<<P>This is one of those "why didn't I think of that" things.<BR>I will be chewing on this idea...thank you!<P>You asked what part of the OM's letter I liked best--I don't have it handy to review, but I will tell you what is most special to me about how I know he thinks of me in general. He has told me over and over that he appreciates my strong points...these are the same things my husband sees as weaknesses. I've always thought they were strong points, not weaknesses, too, but have felt I needed to somehow try to change them to please him, which I've found pretty impossible (like turning my feathers and wings into scales and fins to become a different critter altogether and make him feel comfortable, or something).<P>You asked about the counseling. My husband and I went together and I told you the advice they gave. The advice I got specifically was to live as a single person for a few years before even considering another relationship. OK, guess I could consider it option #3 (and not terribly appealing to me).<P>You asked if abuse is involved...there was in my history, but not my husband. Forgive me, but I don't feel comfortable enough sharing more about this online.<P>You said:<P>>>Surely you're not refering to something as unimportant as money? Meaning that the OM can provide monetary things that your H cannot provide?<<<P>As a matter of fact, the OM earns about HALF as much as my husband, so financial concerns actually go in the other direction.<P>I had stated:<P>>>Because of significant, though ancient, history in my life, I married my best friend, someone I was NOT attracted to in the least, out of fear.<<<P>Sorry to confuse you...I didn't marry my husband out of fear of HIM. I married him out of fear of a romantic/love relationship...this relates also to the abuse history. <P>You said:<P>>>I think I understand that you never really loved your H like you knew you were capable of...as I stated before, I think you felt safe. And, for a while, I believe you felt that as long as you were safe that that would be enough for you.<<<P>Yes, I think those are fair statements.<P>You also said:<P>>>Now you've experienced "more"....and you are no longer willing to settle for less than what's possible. To me, that's understandable. I think we all want the best for ourselves.<P>I also think that you're afraid to make a move. Although, I'm not certain why.<P>What exactly are you afraid of? Do you not trust in yourself, in your ability to judge others? Are you afraid that your OP may only be an illusion? That perhaps he may not be able to offer the safety that you've found so comforting over the years?<<<P>Fabulous questions. I guess I'm afraid of getting blindsided--I am normally a very level-headed, careful person. I'm afraid of major financial difficulties, which could happen with the OM, who, as I said makes very little money, and I don't earn a lot either. I haven't mentioned most of the GOOD things about the OM because I'm trying carefully to calculate the down side of this option (and I'm having trouble finding it) so that I know what I would be getting into. Everything else with the OM meshes SO well...we truly are an amazingly compatible combination.<P>You said:<P>>>I can see the sadness and the confusion in your post. My heart aches for you. It's apparent to me that you are very torn.<<<P>Actually, I have a mixture of extreme happiness/love (with the OM), and sadness over the pain I've caused my husband, which will also affect my daughter if I make this choice. I am used to putting others ahead (especially my daughter) of myself all the time, so doing something for "me" feels extremely selfish--I was raised to believe happiness is never a goal to strive for (and, coincidentally enough, I haven't experienced much of it before).<P>You said:<P>>>I advise you to share your situation with someone you trust-- so that you can unveil the entire situation to them.<<<P>I have done so with a choice few, who I'm blessed to know, and they are very encouraging to me. I don't have things figured out, though. Yes, honestly I am a bit "lost" these days. Those who have been patient with me through this process (six months so far) I appreciate SO much.<P>Thank you for yours prayers and encouragement, Marie. God bless you!<P>~C of W<BR>

Cascade,<P><B>the OM has been separated from his soon-to-be ex for five years (after a long period of procrastination, to avoid more abuse from her, he recently initiated the divorce paperwork)</B><BR>Why in the world did he wait for five years to divorce if they have been separated that long?<P>Think about the answer he gave you and does it make any sense (logically, not what you think it means) at all?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Dear Cascade:<P>Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.<P>Although, I still feel inadequate to give you advice without knowing the "whole story."<P>Therefore, I don't have much to add.<P>As for myself, I'm glad that I married for all the right reasons from the very beginning. Regardless of the challenges my H and I face, I can honestly state that I married my H out of love, and a desire to raise our children together and live happily ever after. I wasn't running, or hiding, or escaping from anything. I married my best friend as well, who luckily for me, also happens to be my lover.<P>I find it strange, and interesting, how other people are raised. You mentioned that you were raised to believe that happiness was never a goal to strive for...<P>...what then do you believe is the "goal" in life?<P><B>IMHO, we all strive for happiness. It is the ultimate goal. Of course, IMHO, true happiness comes from wanting what you have, not having what you want.</B><P>Today, I feel very blessed because I can honestly say I want what I have: My H, my children, my home. Nothing else matters.<P>BTW: you answered that what you liked most about OM's letter was how he thinks of you in general. "He has told me over and over that he appreciates my strong points...these are the same things my husband sees as weaknesses."<P>This is known as positive mirroring. You like OM, not so much because of who he is, but because of how he sees you: he sees you in a positive light. On the other hand, your husband sees you in a negative light (at least in the areas you feel most strongly about).<P>IMHO, the success of your marriage lies in helping your H see the positive side of what he perceives to be your weaknesses-- so that he is able to project back to you a postive image. Likewise, I'm certain that he probably possesses characteristics that you consider to be unflattering...and therefore you would likely benefit by seeing the more positive side of his "weaknesses" as well.<P>Of course, this isn't as easy as it sounds...but I believe it can work if two people open their minds and their hearts to each other.<P>Peace, ~Marie <P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cascadeofwater:
<strong> Help, folks.

I don't have time to list details, but need to say in brief that the love I have found with the OM in my life is truly remarkable. It meets every one of my top 5 emotional needs and is unconditional (despite many circumstances that have revealed our weaknesses to each other). We are so much alike and so mutually crazy about each other we feel like "clones." However, obviously I'm already married (the marriage has two MAJOR flaws, one of which there truly doesn't appear to be any hope for, though I should add there are great pluses on my H's side...he's a very good/reliable man and a wonderful father). I'd like us to be in Plan A, but my husband isn't up to speed on this yet, though I've been encouraging him to read the book.

Is this love I've found the ultimate deception? (It's been six months now, and I truly can't see any way in which it isn't the real thing--the OM is SO open, authentic, expressive, sincere and proves his loyalty to me over and over daily). I feel like I'm holding the winning lottery ticket, only I'm reluctant/guilty about cashing it in because it's stolen. I need to either make a resolution to give up the only person who has ever really understood, respected and cherished me (OM), or try to make something work (with H) that never really did very well.

I am 100% honest and sincere (and have been toward my H about this since it first started, unlike most WS's), so please...no snap judgments or sassy language...I'm looking for real, careful insight and wisdom. BTW, my H is having a hard time deciding whether to work on our marriage, which makes it doubly hard for me to resolve to do the "right" thing, against the powerful force of the other love I've come to know (i.e., I'm not able to picture right now what we might have to look forward to even if we worked hard on the marriage).

To those with helpful, loving responses (especially other WS's who might understand my situation), I thank you in advance for your posts....

~PB </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cascadeofwater:
<strong> Help, folks.

I don't have time to list details, but need to say in brief that the love I have found with the OM in my life is truly remarkable. It meets every one of my top 5 emotional needs and is unconditional (despite many circumstances that have revealed our weaknesses to each other). We are so much alike and so mutually crazy about each other we feel like "clones." However, obviously I'm already married (the marriage has two MAJOR flaws, one of which there truly doesn't appear to be any hope for, though I should add there are great pluses on my H's side...he's a very good/reliable man and a wonderful father). I'd like us to be in Plan A, but my husband isn't up to speed on this yet, though I've been encouraging him to read the book.

Is this love I've found the ultimate deception? (It's been six months now, and I truly can't see any way in which it isn't the real thing--the OM is SO open, authentic, expressive, sincere and proves his loyalty to me over and over daily). I feel like I'm holding the winning lottery ticket, only I'm reluctant/guilty about cashing it in because it's stolen. I need to either make a resolution to give up the only person who has ever really understood, respected and cherished me (OM), or try to make something work (with H) that never really did very well.

I am 100% honest and sincere (and have been toward my H about this since it first started, unlike most WS's), so please...no snap judgments or sassy language...I'm looking for real, careful insight and wisdom. BTW, my H is having a hard time deciding whether to work on our marriage, which makes it doubly hard for me to resolve to do the "right" thing, against the powerful force of the other love I've come to know (i.e., I'm not able to picture right now what we might have to look forward to even if we worked hard on the marriage).

To those with helpful, loving responses (especially other WS's who might understand my situation), I thank you in advance for your posts....

~PB </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cascadeofwater:
<strong> Hello, everyone....

I'm new to this discussion site. I've been married 17 years and have an eight-year-old daughter. My husband and I had, I believe, mostly garden-variety marital problems that increased over time. But, having recently taken the "Needs" test, he apparently wasn't meeting any of my top five needs, and I was only meeting one of his. My parents and only sibling cut me off (long story) three years ago, so suffice it to say I had been emotionally needy for quite a while, though I know I didn't realize how vulnerable I was until....

Last December I fell head-over-heels in love with someone I had started innocently associating with in an educational setting a few months earlier. It was exactly like the whole Cupid thing...shot through the heart, walking on air, couldn't eat (I lost 15 lb. in the first few weeks) or sleep, couldn't think about anything else but him, etc. It was involuntary--I did not seek someone out, and the feelings were completey overpowering. What attracted me was his intellect, his openness and expressiveness, his kindness, his love for the kids he worked with, and many other things. Objectively speaking, he isn't particularly attractive, but he was to me (very tall, expressive eyes, deep/rich voice and extraordinarily beautiful hands). I knew I was in trouble, and at the next opportunity (in January, after Christmas vacation) I moved to remove myself from associating with him. In the process, not wanting him to misunderstand my reasons, I mentioned in the e-mail that I had started caring for him more than I should. Not a smart thing to do, if I had thought things through, but it didn't occur to me, with my very low self-esteem, that he could possibly reciprocate. Well, he was very gentlemanly and kind and offered me his friendship. I couldn't refuse (I had never met anyone like him and he was exactly the kind of person I had always wanted to meet). Well, things progressed quickly over the next few weeks...soon he was telling me HE was in love with ME!

I told my husband immediately. He was terribly hurt. We made some attempts at counseling and spoke with a church elder (a total disaster), but neither of us were in a position to want to work on the marriage (I was way far out on cloud 9, and my husband was so hurt).

In answer to prayer, I found this web site a few weeks ago. I was beginning to think no one cared about marriages being saved anymore (especially when a third party exists). Part of me always sensed my head would have to eventually clear, and I do see things much better now (that I want to work on my marriage), but the OM is wonderful...he meets my top five needs easily and has taught me more about unconditional love (as a verb) than any other human being. However, there are concerns with him (he has ADHD that manifests itself as irregular sleep cycles, chronic tardiness and a lot of trouble managing money). He thinks God brought us together, but I say "God doesn't break His own rules." Things are very tough regarding my marriage, but I feel it would be wrong to divorce without working on it, and I finally am ready to really work on it (though, in cutting off from the OM, I know I will go through MAJOR withdrawals and will need support). My husband, however, has hardened. He wants to sell the house, separate and divorce, though he hasn't filed yet, and there does seem to be some very NARROW wiggle room in his thinking. The core issue is that when we started really talking about our problems, it finally came out that I've never been at all attracted to my husband (I don't want to overemphasize this, but this is a critical issue--I had always known this would badly hurt him, so I had never specifically pointed it out before, though I did not deceive him either)--I have a background of some sexual abuse and so I married my best friend, perhaps subconsciously so that I'd have a husband who didn't have too much power over me that way, or something. I also had bought the conventional wisdom that I would "grow/learn to love him" (didn't happen for me).

Anyway, so that was a definite direct hit for my husband, as I knew it would be--I never wanted to hurt him that way, which is why I hadn't said this directly before, though I had tried at many times in many ways over the years to work on our marriage, such as giving him major hints about how we could improve things, etc., but he poo-pooed the notion of any kind of marriage enrichment work. Now he says he wants a chance to find someone who will love him the way he wants to be loved. I guess it's a normal human response.

The other two major problems we have are differing intellectual levels (and interests), and more importantly total lack of leadership on his part (i.e., nothing gets done with us unless I plan, initiate and drag us through the process, etc.--he is very passive, and it's extremely hard work for me). These things are a lot to overcome, I know, but I still want to work on it because I believe it's the right thing to do, and most importantly (to me) for my daughter's sake (having the best possible environment for her, as well as the most options for her future are more important to me than any of my own needs). One time a few years ago when my husband and I had had a loud disagreement in front of our daughter (didn't happen very often), she expressed concern that we would divorce. I PROMISED her we never would (didn't think so at the time!). Well, that kid never forgets, and she knows about the problems lately, and has said "...but you promised...!" Indeed--ouch!!

In sum, neither my husband nor I know if we have enough to build on. The two critical problems are my lack of attraction to him, and the OM. There's a lot of other work that would have to be done too, and it would be an uphill battle.

So, anyway, this is pretty much my story. I've been hanging on to Marriage Builders like a lifeline these days, but haven't had a chance to post until now. If anyone has any encouragement, I'd be most grateful. To me, this is one of the best possible uses of the Internet. God bless the Harleys, and all of you as well!

Peace to all,

~PB </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you only want ENCOURAGING replies? So, what are we to encourage?

cinderella....the last post before yours was in 2001? Has this poster returned? Nevermind....I see she has.

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Star,

Apparently this individual has just posted over on the D/D board and under prayer requests.

Edited to add: Guess I should have read further and more carefully...lol! This isn't even a current thread. I'll leave my reply though...just in case. Maybe she'll wish she'd had this information before!

Dear Marriagedoa,

Your OM's letter:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "You are beautiful, you know. You are also smart, funny and compassionate. You understanding my loving heart because yours is the same. Both of us are able and willing to work hard at openness and communication---even when, especially when, the going gets tough. All serious, real relationships have their "whitewater" times (I suspect that stems directly from the fact that we're all flawed beings....), but you and I have proven we are able to "run the rapids" together and come out stronger than before. I'll do everything I can to keep us out of the whitewater, and I know you will too, but it is extremely comforting to me to know that we have the love, commitment and communication skills to find our way back to each other in such times. I happen to think that over time we'll find ourselves having to deal with "whitewater times" less than most couples, even those with decades under their belts. Why? Because we understand each other at a level so profound as to be spooky, and because we combine that understanding with huge reservoirs of compassion and respect. There are other things, even deeper: on the spiritual plane, you too are a creature of a questing heart and an enquiring mind. For you, as for me, the spiritual quest is real. I don't have to try and explain such things to you. Rather, I can share the quest with you. It's hard to find words to convey how important to me that is. Then there's a fact so amazing to me that I find it hard to get my mind around it: I am not the least bit lonely when I'm with you, my other half. You are the first PERSON in my life with whom that has been true. You truly are remarkable, and I am truly blessed."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I only have a minute, and only had time to read as far as the post with the letter in it, but I wanted to respond.

It's somewhat clear, even from just this letter to see that your OM is most likely an Enneagram personality type Four. (My H is a Four and writes letters like this all of the time to me. He wrote several to the most recent OW and then couldn't remember having written almost the same words to me a few years earlier!) The clue is in the lonely part. Fours can feel alone in a room full of people that they know and love. They notice what is missing rather than what is right there with them. They feel different, as if they were aliens in their own families even as small children. They are very romantic creatures, and are led mostly by their emotions. They aren't very good at taking a good look at their emotions to see where they are leading them...they just follow as if they must! They actually like the darker emotions and find comfort by staying with them rather than grieving the situation and letting it naturally pass.

Most likely, the grievances he has against his spouse (if he has one) are very much one-sided. My H is a type Four and he used to feel that I was not the person for him. Until he became emotionally healthy, he saw me as the bad guy. Now, I am his "soul mate!" Quite a turn-around and the only one who really changed was HIM!

Fours are looking for a rescuer. They believe that someone amazing is out there looking for them and will rescue them from their ordinary life. They believe that there is a special someone for them...very romantic.

Watch out, because once they have you, they'll pull back. They are terrified of genuine intimacy. They say and act and believe that they are seeking true intimacy, but faced with it IN REALITY (and an affair does not qualify as reality) they will turn their back on it. The love is in the longing...not the having. Once you want them as bad as they want you, they will pull back. If you reach out to them again, they'll come back, then push you away again and the game goes on and on! They have to do a lot of personal emotional work to overcome this.

If you'd like to read more about the Enneagram type Four, I'll give you some links. If you decide to move forward with this guy...don't say I didn't warn you! Until he is healthy (and if he's having an affair with a married woman he is NOT healthy), he's going to hurt you...it's pretty much guaranteed. You will never be enough for him...nobody will until he finds healing and YOU are NOT that healing, although he'll try to convince you that you are! It's all very flattering and romantic...just not real and true.

Stillwed

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeFour.asp

http://www.prosperity.com/enneagram/graphics/4.htm

http://www.ennea.com/types/enn4.htm

http://www.authenticenneagram.com/enneagram_tour/4.html

http://www.sa-inc.net/ec/ec-type4.html

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

I don't have time to read all the posts but wanted to offer my view. You met your OM while still married. You will never know if this relationship could have worked or not because it was started the wrong way.

Why didn't you leave your H first and then go seek someone else? Could it be that your relationship with him was OK? Typical old married folks?

You have an 8 year old here. Your needs don't matter. Your H's needs don't matter. That would be very selfish, what matters is the 8 year old. A child needs it's mom and dad together for the best result. You have the power to keep your relationship together. Can you look this kid in the eye and say my needs are more important than your needs?

Read the books suggested and why not go no contact with your OM. Give your marriage a chance. Give your H a chance. Get into counseling. Your feeling for your H cannot build or return if the OM is still in the picture. Is he married? If he is also married I doubt he would leave his wife in the end.

You owe your child the chance to grow up with mom and dad together and you had better try everything to keep it that way. If your OM really loved you he would understand and respect that you had to do the right thing.

You would throw away your daughters life for a six month fling with a man who would date a married woman? You really need to think this thru. JMHO.

One more thing-why not go on a MB weekend with your H? Might help jump start things.

About the sexual abuse-if you have a history of-why would you take your daughter away from her dad and expose her to OM? Having a daughter around someone who is not her father would make her more vulnerable I would think. I could be off base here, but protecting the child should come first and you had better be very sure about who you are bringing home, you may subconciously be choosing this type of man if you did not receive therapy and so the cycle repeats.

Cascade,
You are in the fog. The adultery between the OM and you is not special. It is ugly. End it. End the M if you wish, but end the A. Those of us here at MB (especially BS's, of which I am one) have heard all about how unique situations like yours are before. A marriage covenant means exactly what to you? Apparently not much, nor does it to the OM, or he would not be pursuing a married woman. BTW, this is an encouraging response, just a very plainly stated one in favor of your M applied with a 2x4.

EDIT: I'd like to know why you keep saying you can't get into specifics. What the heck does that mean? This is the darn INTERNET, we will never see each other or our spouses, so what gives. If you don't like what we say then create another screen name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Cascade, I am new to all this affair crap and I don't think I have ever given anyone advice as I am a newbie and most people here will be shocked that I am even posting a response.

I read that so-called email your Lover/Other Soulmate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> /Piece of S*** Loser that he really is sent to you.

I've never read such Crap in my life. Of course he is going to say all the things you want to hear, he may be in a Fog also. I didn't see him say anything about how this would effect your marriage, your child, or your respect with your frineds and family.

I'll tell you the same thing I told my wife. This so-called perfect relationship that the two of you have is all based upon Lies and Fantasy. Neither of you have lived together 24/7 and dealt with lifes everydays issues. I told my wife that I could respect her as a person now and forever (we have 2 young children and we will see each other for many years whether we want to or not) if she terminated her relationship with the other loser (nicest guy in the world she ever met) and if she tried to work on our marriage for at least 6 months. If her so-called perfect soulmate truly loved her then he can wait 6 friggin months, right? If she doesn't try and reconcile this marriage then I hope her Perfect Soulmate dumps her [censored] for some Hot Younger Woman and she comes crying back to me. At that point I may tell her to go to Hell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Do you honestly think that all of us here could not go out and find our damn soulmate. I can get so damn many women I'm sure I'll find my perfect soulmate eventually. In the last several months several Hot looking women have approached me (I stopped wearing me Wedding ring for a while) and have flirted with me. All I could think about was banging every one of them, great sex for at least 6-12 months. I've had NO sex since last July and most likely won't for a damn long time as I am trying to save my marriage. I was Jealous of all the excitement that my wife was having with her so-called damn soulmate. Why shouldn't I get some damn excitement instead of sitting here daily crying about my marriage and begging God for help. I'll tell you why, because I was married in church before God and I made a commitment to stay together thru good times and bad. Apparantly you and my wife only want good times. It makes me sick how Selfish my wife really is, she blames me 100% for our problems. I suppose you have been the "Perfect" wife like my wife has? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Fine example you are showing your child. Would you allow your child to do this to their spouse? Hell no, what kind of example do you think you are setting? I told this to my wife and she couldn't look me in the Eye. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Do yourself a favor and at least walk away with your head held high like I plan on doing. Get rid of that Loser, try marriage counseling and then get a divorce if things don't work out. I guarantee you will have a lot more respect for yourself if you do this. If your so-called soulmate is still there (after NO contact whatsoever) after your Divorced is finalized then maybe he is the Perfect Guy. Maybe you and my wife can have a Double Wedding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: TA ]</small>