well.....HAHAHAHAHA IM BACK......again. does anyone ever feel in such a rut you could puke?? well that is me.<P>i know i posted here a while back, thinking things were good. well...IM good...the marriage is still bad. I figured out that ME as a person has changed. I have become a very honest and upfront person. I have learned who *MERCY* is, what she stands for and found her purse where all her morals and values were stored. I KNOW who I am....and WHAT I stand for, but alas....my H is still living in the past.<P>We have worked on the communicatin thing. I have been very good about communicating with H. HE on the other hand....hides all his fears, all his questions....everything unitl he explodes like a horrid bomb!! I notice the quietness ect ect, and ask and he says nothing. so when the fights errupt, bad horrid things are said. unfortuntely, they are beginning to MEAN what he says. <P>I know there is anger. I know that. i cant change that. But, after all this time....NO TRUST? NO RESPECT?? i have done everthing....EVERYTHING in my power to make it so his needs are met....but he isnt meeting mine. at all at this point. <P>How long is this no trust thing going to last. I mean....checking up on my everymove..(not hiding anythign i dont care, except that it still shows no trust) accusations? prison living....cant go anywhere without him. He had to go to TX for a meeting and was absolutely sick about leaving me UNattended.<P>in a yr and a half....i feel things are not much better. the marriage isnt. He is mad at everyone and everyuthing.<P>i cant last much longer, the kids cant take these fighes anymore, and i cant take the IM SORRY lovey dovey way he gets after he verbally bashes me.<P>im at my wits end and needed venting.<P>mercy

M:<P>Yes, there is a lot of pent-up anger there. If he is "gunny sacking" (holding it all in until he explodes) then he needs to work on that. Have you guys tried counseling? If not, get some as soon as possible for you both. The benefit to openness and honesty is fully realized when both spouses participate.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

Wow Mercy, I think we are married to the same man! Gee, many people have said that on this board. Though I am the BS my H is the one that doesn't communicate properly and the only way if find out what he is feeling is when we are arguing and then it all comes out and then he sends me into my RED-ZONE and i lash back him verbally, and in the end all we have is made it worse by name calling, swearing at each other and being totally disrespectful. I'm not sure but I guess they call people like our H, PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE. I guess they will claim nothing is bothering them or has bothered them that much but during an heated argument u find out differently. Or in my case sometimes, i find out because he talks about it to everyone else BUT ME! Which really upsets me! We are not the best communicaters to begin with so our arguements can BAD, some would think we are in 2 rival gangs the way we go at it!! The question is, what do we do about it. One thing that helped us communicate properly is counseling. We stopped going after a few months but it was helping at the time. The counselor noticed that my H was soooo angry due to his tone of voice when speaking to me and she asked him WHY ARE U SO ANGRY? His answer, the distrust. Which is what I guess you are angry about now, not being trusted. So i have to ask, besides kissing his @#$, what have you done to regain it. Men and Woman speak different languages and just because you THINK you are doing everything to prove your love and loyalty to your H he may not see it as such. There is even a book out that i have been told about but have not read it and it is the 5 Love Languages that discusses this topic, of 2 people not understanding the other's way of showing there love, basically you are not on the same sheet of music. Other than that, the only thing i can say is to try counseling & reading that book i suggested. I plan on picking it up myself. Good Luck!

t24g,<P>well.....wow! I was beginning to think that i was the only one....and yes....we ended up in another "rival gang" fight. Im plum sick of it at this point!!! and after two dyas where i couldnt hardly speak without crying, he finally called me from work to say he'd be home in a little bit to talk with me adn tell me what was going on.<P>#1....he says he doesnt know HOW to communicate until things are so bad he cant hold them in any longer.<P>#2....he is soo jealous of anyones time with me.<P>#3.... he thinks im not being truthful about my affair (god knows HOW painfully honest i have been)<P>#4.... i dont make him feel important. (we have five kids, i try the best i can!!)<P>#5.... he is severly depressed, he doesnt even want to get out of bed to go to work.<P><BR>counseling?? good luck..we are financially strapped. I have a good insurance but it has a 25% co-pay.....which at this time i cant afford.<P>What is the most painful, is when one partner thinks things are on the right track because the other wont/cant speak about what is going on in their head. <P>The day he came home to tell me this, he said he just kept having visions of me and OM and it tyed him up inside...it has been a yr and a half sinc ethe affair....but only about 8 months since the OM quit calling after i changed our phone number to unlisted. the bad part is....there wasnt any reason for there to be any triggers. He was riding a horse down an alley trying to get to a pen to move some cattle to another pen. It just popped in his head. He doesnt trust me what so ever. i cant say i blame him, but, there comes a time where some distance needst o be given so trust can be built. <P>my latest blow is that i have a few male friends....ALL whom want to meet my H, and are a fellow host from a room i host in. HE IS SO JEALOUS. he said that i dont need to talk with them....i said.......gee hun they are only friends...he says very meanly......"WELL YOU OF ALL PEOPLE KNOW HOW A FRIENDSHIP CAN TURN INTO LOVERS". <P>I j ust hate life

Mercy,<P>I know that you are NOT going to like this much - but you are violating the concept of the POJA by having male friends at the moment. The Policy of Joint Agreement states that neither spouse does anything without the ENTHUSIASTIC agreement of the other. Sounds oppressive, but with ther rest of the Harley concepts, it doesn't have to be. I don't know anything about your background, but the comment you made about having male friends and telling him "they are just friends" when he DOES express his concern - well that sends up huge red flags.<P><B>HAVING MALE FRIENDS is a BIG LOVE BUSTER!</B> You are disrespecting him badly under the circumstances (i.e., you were unfaithful), and belittling his feelings with that kind of response. When he knows that you will not respect his feelings on having male friends, why would he share any other feelings with you? Perhaps he is unable to communicate because he feels it is futile - then, when it has built up to a certain point, he can't hold it in any longer and it comes exploding out.<P>What do you do to make it easier for your husband to communicate how he feels to you? What are you doing to encourage him? If you want him to communicate with you, you need to listen and take to heart and ACT when he DOES share - that reinforces the understanding that you care about what he is feeling.<P>It seems that many men have a harder time overcoming their wive's infidelity than many women have overcoming their husband's infidelity. To a man, his wife's faithfulness is part of his masculinity... sounds silly, maybe, but because it is a fact, we need to acknowledge and value that.<P>You have choices - you can have your life just the way you want it - without your husband, or you can have your marriage and work to make both of your lives happy and rewarding. It's up to you.<P>Remember, for your husband, your affair has only been over for the 8 months since no contact was established. You need to be EXTREMELY patient with him - recovery does not happen as quickly in some cases than it does in others.<P>I hope this has helped somewhat.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

hi terri.....nope didnt liek some of it <BR>hahaha..<P>ok....the "male friend" is a working relationship friendship. and besides....is it a double concept that he has more women friends than male?? do i smell an affair working its way back into my marriage?? YEP.....it is me ?? NOPE.<P>Ya know...i hadnt spoke to any men. i am very good about not conversing...but i do have a job that requires male contact. and i do everything in my power to make him feel important. but...in his own words..he is jealous of the kids and the time i give them. they are babies.what i am supposed to do? <P>i know my choices are my m arriage or not. i just feel very tired of working so dmaned hard <P>thanks terri <BR>mercy

well mercy, don't know how popular this will be (btw I am the wsh). First let me say I used to be as confused as anyone else about the communication thingy, counsellors (and everyone else) always say communicate better, but what the heck does that mean... and how do you do it? Well anyways, I am no longer confused about that, MB has this stuff down to a science, read all their books, the counselling is vital to hold each spouse accountable, but reading books (and applying), is better than nothing.<P>Now as for you, I am kinda radical on this stuff. You can't do anything about your H reaction to your affair, but his behaviour has little to do with affair anyways, it has always been there, and is who he is. Nobody changes their whole personality over a single event. The popular notion is guys just have such a hard time when W have PA, well...too bad. I see no reason to give guys an inch over this crap, if they insist on viewing their wives as sexual property and damaged goods, then get rid of him, he is fixated on himself, and useless as a H. <P>Yes sex (with some other man) is an important issue, std's, pregnancy, trust, etc...but in itself it is just biology, and has no discernible permanent impact on anyone..... so yeah, another man had you, big deal, is history (what if you had been raped?), what is important is what is in your head (do you love him, and can always be trusted, everyone is allowed one learning error, did you learn yours, and are a trustworthy spouse, or would divorce first blah blah blah). I wonder if sometimes the women buy into this too (men don't seem to have this problem of feeling as damaged goods), and project that they are somehow fallen women, and sort of validate the male ego this way. IMO, after a suitable period of remorse, problem solving, etc, (and 1 1/2 years seems a good amount), I'd tell him in no uncertain terms you are done with this crap, get over it, or get out (plan B him), cause now HE is the problem, not you. I have a friend who this happened to 20 years ago, her husband never forgave her (in the sense he always reminded her at every opportunity she was a fallen woman, and how noble he was to take her back.........excuse me while I throw up, happens every time I think about guys doing this), and consequently (for that and other reasons arising from that kind of psychology), they have a completely empty marriage, she lives just for her kids, and her own life away from the marriage, but she is Christian and won't leave him. Do you want the same outcome?<P>As for you, you are not withoug fault here. You seem to indicate you fight too, so you are not as healed as you suggest. It takes 2 to fight, as you no doubt know. You never have to be pulled into a fight, or speak in angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands...etc. I would suggest you just stop all the behaviour related to this topic, do what you want, when you want, how you want (within reason), and let H do the same. You want to go somewhere without him......go, what is he gonna do, tie you up? There is great power in ignoring controlling behaviour, your husband can be annoying, but if you don't argue back, and do what you want, he really can't do anything at all. If he is abusive, then you have a choice to make, but the choice should always be the same, abusers must be removed from their family, it is the only way to get their attention, and if that doesn't work, they lose their family, that is the consequence of their choice.

hi there......ty for the food for thot. <P>OK>>>i used to blow a fuse when talked to. When we'd fight i'd come uncorked. so after the affair....after these yrs of working through the mud and the muck....i leared that IF i had NOTHING nice to say.....THEN BE QUIET!!!! so upon times of fighting....i be quiet, but damn! if someone is slamming you over and over....you tend finally to get a little bit angry. IF i stay totally quiet....I AM ASSUMED TO BE AGREEING WITH what ever is being said.<P>ho hum...... <P>""Now as for you, I am kinda radical on this stuff. You can't do anything about your H reaction to your affair, but his behaviour has little to do with affair anyways, it has always been there, and is who he is. Nobody changes their whole personality over a single event""<BR> HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH THAT ONE.<P>it only got worse with the affair.<P>ok....ty for the food for thot...i have to eat some breakfast LOL <P>mercy

Written by Sad_N_Lonely "so yeah, another man had you, big deal, is history (what if you had been raped?)" WHAT!!! Have you EVER been raped SNL? Why on this earth would u even make such an ignorant comment like that? First look up the definition of RAPE!! RAPE IS SEX BEING TAKEN FROM SOMEONE UNWILLINGLY! U know, i always had my feelings that men have the sensitivity of lint, and that comment just pushed proved my theory even more!! An affair is done FREELY by two consenting adults which is what Mercy and U have done, no where does rape enter in the same arena NO WAY NO HOW! I can't say enough how ignorant and plain stupid that comment was!<BR>Mercy, you say "The day he came home to tell me this, he said he just kept having visions of me and OM and it tyed him up inside...it has been a yr and a half sinc ethe affair....but only about 8 months since the OM quit calling after i changed our phone number to unlisted. the bad part is....there wasnt any reason for there to be any triggers." For me as a BS, the fact that it took you so many MONTHS before you changed your phone number to an unlisted number, would be a RED LIGHT to me, that you didn't care about my feelings. You are here to understand but i don't think you really listen. EVERYTHING and ANYTHING is a trigger that is the amount of pain that one has when they are the BS. For me, I believed that H was the one person on this earth that would ALWAYS love me and only me, when you find out that the one person you depended on to always love you has strayed your WHOLE WORLD feels like nothing but a lie. How does your H know you aren't lying about your affair now, because YOU SAY SO? Words aren't good enough anymore once you have proven yourself to be a liar, plain and simple. As far as counseling, I understand about not being able to afford, it, so why not just go to the library and get some books, if they aren't in, then have them put you on the wait list until they come in. Once again, it seems that you both want to reach togehter towards the future but keep missing the line to grab a hold of that would bring your there together. As far as his communication goes, does he even realize that he holds everything inside and then explodes with it. As for my H he uses the "It didn't really bother me at the time, but since you brought up something I did, then what about when u did this". To me that is counterproductive and the wussy-way out of communicating what has bothered them. And the whole circle of blame just goes round and round and round with no SOLUTION. Your H is in a very deep place right now, and doesn't know how to get himself out of it, he is in a pity-party for himself because he is still in question of WHY and HOW u could do that to him. That is all he see's right now and he does need help in moving forward instead of staying stagnant.

I apologize for calling SNL's opinion STUPID.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA <P>GOODNESS, i never ment for this to happen.<P>trying2forgive....im sorry. <BR>**Forgivess isnt forgetting it is the willingness to live with the consequences of someone elses sin**<P>NO....he sures doesnt have anything to stand on. Im a liar, was a liar, to him...always been a liar. why did i not change my number? i couldnt let go. does he know this? ys he does. does it change things...yes it does. makes the affair a longer situation.<P>rape isnt a comparison....never. my affair was never forced. <P>we did get books....i have soem of harleys books, i have torn asunder which is aawesome, i have a few others. We have read books, we do talk, we DONT COMMUNICATE. I try...he hides it ...too painful.<P>i know for a fact....i have seaid this before that IF it had been HIM.....i wouldnt have given him another thot. IT would have been OVER. yep...call me what you want, but i couldnt have been handed that kind of pain and live with it. NO WAY.<P>im sorry for your pain. god bless,<BR>mercy

Try2....My apologies, wasn't the most sensitive way to make my point (and no, never been raped). The point was that judging a woman solely by who she may have had sex with says a lot more about the judger (that they are pretty much self-centered to a fault) than the woman. Now why she (or anyone) had sex with whoever is very important, and why I think ones sexual history should be an open book in any new relationship (the harley's agree, which is gratifying). If her husbands issue is trusting his wife ect, well then ok, but if it is simply that she is damaged goods, then I have no sympathy for him, in fact I have little sympathy for any bs that can't get past the sex act (as a seperate issue from the betrayal itself, which is a very big deal). It is just biology, and it is indeed, no big deal.<P>Guess for the record, should make it clear never been a bs, but I have thought about it, and I don't think the sex itself would be important, for me the why would be all-important. But then I was a paramedic for a long time, and medical professionals view human anatomy a whole lot differently than the general public.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 05, 2001).]

Mercy,<BR> I go thru the same stuff with my H. Same situation, I'm the betrayer. It's been a yr and a half for us also. Nothings ever said, life goes on as normal, until he gets half drunk and then he we go again with the whys and how comes. I still don't have any answers, and if I did they wouldn't be enough in his drunken state. With him being an alcoholic I doubt if they ever will, as long as I'm with him I may as well look forward to it, does'nt matter if it's twenty years down the road. Seems he's a cheater magnet, everyone he's been in a relationship with has done that to him? Wished I hadn't joined that club!

......tell him to quit hanging out invitations? sorry that isnt cool....but you see...my husbands last girlfriend did that too..and he was only 17. INvolved with a married but seperated woman who drug him around and around, guy after guy...apology after apology. i wonder if these BS understand that it isnt all a WS problem? it takes two to tango whether it be for an affair or for a marraige to take a dump into an affair.<P>i just get tired of being sorry and trying to recify what i have done ONLY to have it rubbed back into my face. I can only be sorry for so much and aplogize for so much.<P>for example another slam dunk....i told my hubby that when i called his office today that his boss was pretty openly flirty with me and it made me uncomfortable.....but before i got the uncomfortable out...he said...."what'd ya do...flirt back?" now....i guess i should nt say anything about that? am i taking things too far? should i jsut be quiet ant that way he doesnt get so jealous and make offhand comments?<P>*sigh.... i wish we could take back time at times <P>mercy

mercy:<P>If you were to place a monetary value on your marriage, what would it be? (Overall, that is, not the current devalued rate.) Worth more than a few hundred dollars? My guess is that your answer is yes.<P>Talk to your husband about counseling; mention about Steve or Jenn Harley {"no dear, they are not the typical type of counselors ... they are coaches so we can get our gameplan straight") ...<P>If your marriage is to move forward, it will take the best effort the two of you can JOINTLY make. See if he will read the basic concepts of MB (see the "Concepts" link at the top of this page).<P>Tell him that MB exists for him as well. The resources here are available to both spouses (to the OP as well, many of them post here and make valuable contributions).<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hi Mercy,<P>You and I have been communicating for a long time now. Let me ask you something. Up to the time that you ended communications 8 months ago, how long has it been since the affair started?<P>I would like to suggest to you that for your H the affair has been this duration, not the on and off periods and then the communications. You see if you had felt had and possibly been lied to for such a long time, it isn't unreasonable that he is having troubles with triggers. His new found religion is being tested far more than you think.<P>But I would like to suggest to you, the problem isn't so much you now (assuming that you indeed have been honest with him these last 8 months). It is his sense of complete failure. He has failed as a husband and as a man and he is having a very hard time dealing with this. He is also failing in his religous beliefs because he SHOULD be able to get past this. <P>Further, he feels his failure is known, apparently if his boss is hitting on you, more than a few people think you are available, even if you are NOT. If you were to stop and think of it in his terms, then you would not be thinking that 8 months is long enough to recover.<P>Mercy, 8 months is only a small fraction of the time since your affair started to the time 8 months ago. Further, his problems are with his own failures. I believe you are seeing the explosions because he cannot bring himself to admit to you how destroyed he is, how weak he is, and how much of a failure he feels. Heck, he probably feels he is failing his family because of the money situation. All of this is playing a role in his feelings right now.<P>I believe that instead of him communicating with you, you need to be communicating with him. You need to little by little get him to talk about things, by bring up your own fears and asking him if he ever thinks like this or that.<P>Let the steam off a little at a time, but realize that 8 months is a short time Mercy.<P>I know this has been a long road for both of you, but hang in there. He wouldn't hurt this bad if he didn't love you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi Just Learning ty for your post, and after some time together these last week or so, i know he loves me, that isnt a question. an dyes i have tried!! to communicate with him to get him to open up, but i belive what you said about being a failure and such. HE has much pride in being a supporter and provider.<P>i work hard to show i am married. I deal with men on a "business" level only. THe men i mentioned earlier are hosts on line and i have to communicate with them. I have introduced them to him ect ect....but adultery is the ultimate betrayal.<P>The affair started back in aug. of 1998, ended in Feb. 1999, rekindled in Dec of 1999 until May of 2000, no contact since November 2000. .....he'd be a better man if he'd left my weak A** long ago. but i didnt find MB until March of 2000 and began to learn the hows, whys and howcomes of all this jazz.<P>even if not happily married, ID NEVER PUT MYSELF OR MY FAMILY through this type of hell again. ME as a person isnt worth it. Im better tahn that!!!!<P>ty for your input!!<BR>mercy

Not a WS myself but I can still understand the frustration of a H who can't communicate nor get in touch with their feelings unless I'm there as a "therapist" (and even that doesn't get us very far).<P>Can't offer any great advice though, as I'm going through the same thing but on the other side of the fence (he's tempted to stray). Time and again he will say something but if we dig a little deeper something else comes out to contradict it- sometimes even amazing H. If it was up to H all we'd ever discuss is the weather. Even when he fills in the questionaires here he leaves half of the questions unfilled. <P>Just wanted to let you know that this is probably just a personality thing and not *necessarily* related to what you did.