I had a long and interesting talk with my H last night. When I got home he was sitting in the dark on the couch. I went into the living room and sat down beside him.<P>He asked me how "OM was doing these days." (I worked yesterday, and the OM is a coworker). He told me he now knew OM's last name and his phone number, and a lot of "other details." these are things I would have told him if he'd ever asked. Of course he wouldn't be specific about what those "other details" were. But I digress...<P>He started asking me questions about my affair, about why I did it. This was very unusual as he very rarely asks me anything about it, doesn't want to talk about it. And while I was telling him about how emotionally and physically needy I was because of his total withdrawal from me (which he's heard before several times), he started getting angry. The issue of my weight came up, and he admitted that he started losing physical attraction to me around the time we got married. He said that he'd been "hinting around" to me since that time about wanting me to lose weight. His "hints" were apparently in the form of suggesting exercises for me to do, making "joking" comments about my weight, etc. He never told me point blank that he was losing his attraction because that would have been "mean." And i guess I just never got all the "hints."<P>My husband is grossed out by the thought of overweight/out of shape people having sex. He is repulsed by it. This applies particularly to us, of course. He said that he couldn't want me when I gained weight. He didn't want to make love or snuggle or cuddle or any of that, because I wasn't thin enough for him to desire that from me. And also, when he put on some weight himself, he became disgusted with his own body and that just exacerbated the problem. I got the impression from him that overweight/out of shape people don't deserve sex or affection...these things are for the "beautiful people." <P>I always knew that my weight/appearance figured into the equation, but I never knew the full depth of things until last night. And honestly, it blew me away. I couldn't believe that he could place such importance on my weight, to the exclusion of anything else that was good about me as a woman or as his wife. He admits that this is shallow, however he says it's just how he is. Keep in mind that the total weight gain we're talking about here is about 20-25 pounds. A significant portion of this weight gain happened as the result of a post-partum thyroid problem after giving birth to our son.<P>I explained to my H that the OM found me attractive just as I was, before i had lost any of the weight. He had found me very attractive and told me I was beautiful. H said, "Well, I used to tell you that too, back when our relationship was new." Of course he hasn't said that to me in a long time now, because he doesn't see me that way anymore. He also said that it was easier for OM to find me beautiful as I am now because he didn't know me when I was thinner (!!!)<P>Then somehow the dicussion went to eating and then got to holidays (Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc.) and he expressed his utter disgust with the whole holiday overeating thing...why do people make these huge meals and all the fattening treats...just to sit around the table and groan that they've eaten too much, it's just disgusting exess, he said. The whole time he's saying these things, I'm watching him getting almost enraged about this issue. He even looked crazy while he was talking. I said, "I wish you could hear how crazy you sound right now. Why are you getting so upset about food?!"<P>He was just so bitter and so angry!! I don't know why, and he doesn't seem to, either. I don't even know where all this comes from. He is certainly not the man I once knew. <P>I should add that over the past several months my H has been dieting and weightlifting and has lost probably 25 pounds himself. In fact, he looks unhealthy now. But, he loves it. He takes great pleasure in showing me how big his pants are on him now, and yesterday he went out and bought himself a bunch of new clothes...this from a man who HATES shopping.<P>I've lost a substantial amount of weight over the past several months, and although H certainly notices this, he says it's too late now because he can't ever want me again since I've had an affair. I'm now tainted and will be forever.<P>My H also doesn't seem to want to discuss how his EA with a woman at work affected his feelings for me. In fact he really doesn't think he did anything wrong in regards to that situation. Since she didn't want him, he didn't leave me for her as he wanted to back in the fall.<P>As much as I cried during this conversation...by the end I felt a very odd sense of relief. I've been trying to save my marriage, but it's now very obvious to me that I can't make a life with someone whose emotions for me are tied so much to what I happen to weigh at the moment. I guess what he needs to do is go find a model like the ones he dated before he married me, and pray they never gain a few pounds having his child.<P>Now i'm at a point where I don't think my H is even capable of having a healthy relationship with me. I think he needs LOTS of counseling. He has issues that I can't even begin to touch.<P>One last thing...I did finally get him to admit that our having a child negatively impacted his feelings for me. I kept coming back to that conclusion because we were SO HAPPY right up to a few months after our son was born, that's when the downward spiral began. But he can't say in what way or why this impacted him so much.<P>Sorry this is so long, but I had to tell it like it happened. And I still can't believe it!<P>calla <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by calla30 (edited June 28, 2001).]

Calla:<P>Look at the bright side: Emotional need(s) were expressed. Start working.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

calla,<P>This is not a flame at you, so stay with me for a moment. First, Harley lists as one of the major needs: the need for an attractive spouse. It is not one of the "lesser" or "less important" needs. It is as real as affection to some people. It is not a shallow need, because it is rooted in survival and picking healthy mates.<P>However, in todays society this need is accentuated more than ever before. I feel that the perhaps your H is caught up in this. But it is also possible that your weight is not the issue as you have suggested yourself. Perhaps, it is about your child and your H's wish for the relationship to return to just you and him.<P>So my recommendation is to take it seriously, but also in the light that it is not a need that is any less deserving of attention, than any other. I do believe you have hit on the source of the need, so lets talk about that for a moment.<P>You had an affair, because the marriage was not what you wanted. He withdrew from you because the marriage was not what he wanted and indeed you were further withdrawing because of your affair. So here we sit with two withdrawn people. One, is hurting because of being betrayed. The other is hurting because her H doesn't desire her.<P>What happened? I think you may know. If you do know and work to correct it, then I think there is every reason for your marriage to succeed. Sure losing the extra weight may help, but I doubt that it is the real problem. The weight represents what he found less attractive, the interaction in the marriage while you were pregnant and after.<P>No, doubt you focused on your pregnancy and then on your baby. Very normal, however, did he feel as if he wasn't wanted and needed? Did he have some problems with sex during the pregnancy? Many men are concerned about having sex with a pregnant wife. <P>It seems to me your H is finally being honest with about his feelings. I suspect because he is in such pain that he is far less worried about hurting your feelings than he was before. In fact some of this discussion may have been more "payback" than reality. <P>It seems to me you need to talk with him about what he felt has been wrong in the marriage: before and after the arrival of the baby. You may well hear things that to you sound just awful/selfish. I am guessing, but many of us guys here may not be so surprised, you see men often do view pregnancy differently than woman.<P>Calla, don't give up. I think the information you have gotten is just what you need to help your marriage. It is not the end of it.<P>So please think about this, comment on what I have said, and talk more with your H. He seems ready to talk.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>Thanks for your insight and male perspective. I hear what you are saying about the need for an attractive spouse. And while I recognize this need is more important for some people than others, I have a VERY hard time justifying his need for me to be thinner basically ruining his love for me.<P>This "need" of his is particularly hard for me to understand because I can't relate to the way it affects him. I have loved my H up and down three pants sizes in the seven years of our relationship. When he was "up" in size, it never decreased my desire for him or my love for him. In fact, I can't fathom losing my love for my mate for that reason. At the very least, it would have to be a VERY substantial weight gain to affect me in such a way, and even then I can't imagine it killing the love.<P>This whole issue makes me incredibly angry and defensive. I said to my H last night, "Who do you think you are, Brad Pitt?" Do you think your own looks are so incredible that you have a right to demand I look a certain way?" I mean, what's fair here?<P>You may be right about last night's discussion being somewhat of a "payback." He is very definitely angry at me right now, this is his overall emotional state. And anything he can do to hurt me makes him feel better. <P>As for the child issue, he is very evasive and reluctant to go into that any deeper. But, I believe as you have suggested, that he did not adjust well to the shift in focus of our lives, or at least, the shift of my attention from him to our son. That he may actually carry a degree of jealousy or resentment is not something I think he could ever admit to...but again, it's what I suspect.<P>Months ago H walked into our son's bedroom where I was busy toweling the child off after a bath. I grabbed a bottle of baby lotion and started putting some on our son, who was giggling and trying to get away. My H glared at me and said very cooly, "Isn't he a little old for that lotion business? Are you going to be doing that when he's 10?" The whole comment struck me as odd, and later it occured to me that maybe my H was actually jealous of the affectionate way that I was touching our son!!<P>But back to the issue of my weight/appearance...I am not sure how to take that as a need of his. It would basically mean I would have to be a slave to the bathroom scales as long as I'm married to him. I would live with the constant fear of "Gee, if I gain five pounds, will he stop wanting me again?" What makes it even worse, is once again he said up until this point, I have been a "fantastic wife" (other than gaining weight and having an affair, of course). If he means that, then it's true that his love for me can be torn down on that one factor: my body shape. This fact does not sit well with me.<P>When my H starts asking the "why" questions about my affair, this is how I put it: He withdrew his love and affection from me. I made it clear to him that I was unhappy about this. He chose not to address the problem. That, in turn, left me with two choices: learn to live with no affection or sex...or get it elsewhere. And in all honesty, I did not "look" for another person to provide those things. Had I not had the (mis)fortune of meeting OM, today I would likely just be in the same miserable, loveless place in my marriage, probably contemplating separation by now.<P>But, there again, as my H tells it, he couldn't "fix" the problem of not being attracted to me, which brings the blame back onto me for gaining the weight in the first place. You see...now the problem is compounding because I'M getting angry about this. This whole revelation on his part diminishes my desire to want to work on my marriage.<P>All I want to do is withdraw from him, because this is too painful for me to deal with. It deeply affects my self-esteem and self concept. I hung my head in front of him and cried at my regret over not being "good enough" to be deserving of his love. How do you think this will affect my self-concept in the long run? I already feel a degree of self-loathing for allowing him to see me cry over that. It doesn't seem fair or right that he has such power to make me feel bad about myself. <P>What do you think about these issues?<P>Calla<P><BR>

Calla,<P>I think you are missing the point. Please reread your response to me. Tell me where if I were your H, I would feel wanted? Where I would feel you are trying to understand me? Where would that be?<P>I know this is a hard thing for me to ask you to do. But his "need" for an attractive W and indeed for himself to be attractive is deepseated. But it is no more illogical, than watching someone pick there nose and then try to put the make on you. People get turned off by many things.<P>Now, let's get back to something here. Your H did love you and he did like many things about you. But he was no longer turned on because of your weight. He associates your weight with something bad. I suspect it has to do with your child and how you treated him before, during and after the pregnancy. It could be something from his childhood, I don't know. It is now something that counseling would now be required to address.<P>You on the other hand looked at the situation and could only come up with two solutions. One suffer alone or two, have an affair. Boy, you talk about a kick in the crotch. There are many solutions that you could have tried and they may have been productive.<P>I will suggest two things for you to consider. One, some of what H is telling you is rewritten history, based on his pain and your affair. Two, you have never mentioned or discuss how you interacted in the marriage. It seems to me you are sort of a take it or leave it sort of person. That needs to change.<P>Now, as for jealousy of babies. Yes, you are right he won't bring it up, but I will. Very often in marriage when children come into the picture women use this opportunity to pull away from the H. It is justified because if the H complains he is told he is jealous, selfish, or not a good father. None of those things are true. It is true that children do demand time, but it is not true that the wife has to cease being affectionate, friendly, and yes even sexy. <P>It is a very common "joke" amoung men when hearing that a W is expecting that all of the married men just roll their eyes and say well kiss the good life goodbye. Men, don't look forward to having children, not because they don't love the children, but because they "Know" that their life is going to change and not for the better. They are right.<P>Do you sense a bit of an attitude? I hope so. I have three children all teens or older, and I have many friends in the same situation and there have been few if any exceptions to what I have just told you. I suspect you weren't an exception.<P>Now if you are a spouse that needs attention, affections and yes sex alot, then having your spouse withdraw hurts alot. I believe you may understand this statement. However, you H cannot complain, because he is being selfish or jealous. You can and could complain because in your book he was being uncaring. You justified your affair in that manner.<P>So what to do? If you want your marriage you need to continue to try and assure your H you want to be married to him. It is clear, very clear he wants to be married to you or he would be gone after your affair. He is having problems (you aren't the woman he married). I mean in morally, as an affectionate wife, or yes even physically. He is using the latter to justify/explain his feeling, but they can change.<P>Quite frankly men do change their idea of beauty as they get older. I can vouch for that. I am in my 50's. Frankly, a more mature looking woman and figure I find very attractive. Teeny boppers I do not. I have always thought women peaked in beauty in their late 30's or 40's. But whatever the situation, men do change their tastes. You are not condemned to a life in the gym, of that I am sure.<P>I suspect that he will start to change his approach as you change yours. Yes, losing a few pounds now may help, but later what will help is the changes you make in othe parts of your marriage. <P>I have been reading and posting here for a few years, and one thing that does happen repeatedly is that when one spouse changes their approach, their view of the other spouse, and develops a bit of empathy (plan a) the relationship and the response of the other spouse changes as well.<P>It is true that you can only change you, but if you change your H will very likely as well.<P>I believe you are putting too much emphasis on what he is saying right now, but I also believe that you haven't really sat yourself down and decided how you are going to make this marriage better for him and be definition for yourself.<P>There is a lot of healing to do, and it requires time and patience. Please use these two tools, I believe they will help you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Calla:<P>Re: In fact, I can't fathom losing my love for my mate for that reason. [Weight]<P>The whole thing about ENs, it isn't about how YOU feel about that particular need, it is HIS need. In the Harley plan, you are to address that need if it is high on his list (which it apparently is).<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

JL,<BR>You say that it's very clear that my H wants to remain married, because he's still here. At first I thought that, too. Now I think he's only here because he hasn't worked out all the details of leaving yet.<P>I don't know if you read any of my posts (only a couple) over the past week or so..but my H has said more than once that he's leaving. He has Apartment Search magazine in his car. He's gone to look at apartments. He's even made calls about BUYING another, smaller house just for himself (although I have no idea how he thinks we'd handle two mortgages at this point).<P>Anytime I ask him how he feels about our marriage, he sees no hope and calls the situation "bleak, no matter how I look at it." He keeps reminding me of how he told me early on in our courtship, "if you ever cheat on me, it's over." Quite frankly, I don't know why he's still here, other than that he just hasn't found a suitable apartment or he's waiting for me to go back to work full time so we can more easily afford to pay mortgage for the house and rent for an apartment.<P>He certainly doesn't do anything to indicate that he wants to make it work, and has in fact asked me to stop trying, as he put it, "You'll just end up discouraged if you keep trying with no results."<P>And he never wants to address ALL of the facts of our situation. The fact is, within weeks of my beginning my affair, he pledged his love to a coworker of his. A month later he came home and told me he was in love with someone else and wanted to leave me. So as far as I can tell, we both reached an emotional crisis at the same time. And I feel quite certain that had his feelings been returned by this woman at work, he would have been long gone by now, out there living in his own fog. However, he wants to only focus on my affair, and not address his own, because his was only an EA.<P>It's easy for me to get discouraged because there are so many complicating factors to my case. I don't understand how these pieces all fit together to make a whole complete picture. <P>Also, I just can't take that stance that it's okay to set a certain standard for my weight or appearance under the justification of his "emotional need." I have an emotional need for affection, but if I demanded that my H be constantly touching me, calling me every hour from work to tell me that he loves me, etc., wouldn't that be excessive or unrealistic of me to ask that? I'm just saying: even legitimate needs have limits somewhere. Where do we draw the line between a need and a compulsion?<P>You said one thing that disturbed me, about men not looking forward to the arrival of children, and feeling that their lives were about to change, and "not for the better." This seems like an unhealthy attitude about families to me. I mean, if you really feel that children will negatively impact your life, why would you choose to have them? Are you suggesting that in general, men do not find fulfillment or joy in having children, as much as women do? Not sure of the point you are trying to make here.<P>I do appreciate you trying to get me to look at things a different way. I'm not good at that lately. I've boiled this situation down to a few simple facts that I know, and many questions i fear will never be answered. I just can't get inside my H's head and know what's going on in there...<P>calla

Calla,<P>Your H does still love you but it is now buried under a bunch of debris. Some of it his making some of it yours. He may move into an apartment, but that doesn't mean the marriage is over. As far has his need, STL said it best, you don't get to determine what he feels as a need.<P>You mentioned affection as a need he isn't meeting, but you did in fact act on it. You had an affair. I think you are working on far too few facts. You keep weighing things on some sort of "fairness" scale, but you should be doing is accepting his feelings at face value. But here is the rub, feelings change and they change fast and often. So while you can sit and listen to him accepting what he says, you need to understand that feelings do change. This is even true if he moves into an apartment.<P>I would recommend that you do what he is doing. Work out lose the weight. Consider it insurance. If it changes his mind fine. However, you will be healthier, happier, and more attractive to not only him but other men. So if the marriage does end, you are in a good position. It seems like a win-win situation for you.<P>You commented on my statement about men and children. You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You said one thing that disturbed me, about men not looking forward to the arrival of children, and feeling that their lives were about to change, and "not for the better." T his seems like an unhealthy attitude about families tome. I mean, if you really feel that children will negatively impact your life, why would you choose to have them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We don't have them, women do. Why do you think that men have trouble committing to marriage? It isn't the regular sex, someone to help around the house (read do cooking, laundary, etc ). No it is the knowledge that children are coming and with them comes commitment and obligations.<P>You may not realize this but most men see the coming of children as a financial challenge. How will I be able to feed everyone? How can we handle a mortgage for a house? How can I afford to send them to college? Many men realize that it will basically be their responsibility to make sure the family makes it and that the children are given every chance. Our job traditionally is financial.<P>I enjoyed my children when they were young, but I would be lying to you if I didn't say I look forward to enjoying them as adults. My responsibility will be relieved after college and I can quit being source of money and can simply enjoy them as independent human beings, that I am related to. <P>Almost all men realize that they will lose their W to some degree when children come. And it is a loss. So far have I mentioned anything joyful yet? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Are you suggesting that in general, men do not find fulfillment or joy in having children, as much as women do? Not sure of the point you are trying to make here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am saying that when you child came, your H moved to the bottom of the "to do list" and he knew it. If you don't realize this, then it is unlikely you will be able to salvage the marriage. You mentioned he had an EA. Well, doesn't that suggest to you his needs were not being met? It sure does to me.<P>Calla, men do not view children as women do. We bond with them after they are born. We view them as deep responsibility. We learn to really enjoy them as they get older. We don't worry as much about the "empty nest" (We get our W's back). Yet, we do love children, but it is apparently in a different way and in a differnt order.<P>By the way, men are not that unique. There are more than a few women who are weighted down by responsibility of children.<P>My advice to you, be patient and try to see the past as your H does. It will give you a better handle on things. By the way, of course your H reminds you of the affair. You gave body and soul to another man. That hurts.<P>As much as you may have come to grips with the affair he has not yet. But he can and will with time. Calla, there is more going on than you think. There are still feelings there, there is still a marriage in place. You need to start to reevaluate what you have done in the past, pre-A, and see if a change of thinking and actions won't change how your H views things.<P>God Bless<P>JL

Hi JL,<P> I've read many of your posts and want to say WOW, you sure have a way of eloquently expressing your thoughts.....are you a counselor? Keep up the insights to the "male view"!! LU

I myself have thought I was in the same boat as you. I was a healthy vibrant girl when I met my husband. I loved working out. Then we had children. I was still happy, but I gained weight. After 4 children and 10 years I gained an excess of 90 pounds. I felt unattractive, didn't want to make love, etc...H wanted it even more. But my own hang up thought he was just going through the motions to make me feel wanted, so i wouldn't feel so bad. Weight is a serious issue. My H gained 35lbs and has a big belly-but he's a big guy anyway-but now his belly pouches out-beer belly I call it. But I never stopped finding him attractive-just me. I figured how could he find a 240lb 5'6" woman attractive, and that bled through my feelings and actions. Which is prpbably where your H was when he gained some weight-but now has lost it in hopes that he would spark some interest in you to lose weight. Kinda like I did it why can't you. Then your A just added to the mix. He feels that he is right and didn't do anything wrong. Heck in his eyes your the one that doesn't love him enough because you let yourself gain weight and had an A. And obviously now you are damaged goods and wants nothing to do with you. I think it's much more than weight. his life has changed since the birth of your child-and some men never adjust- they love the carefree lifestyle they had before children. He has some serious issues that he needs to deal with and until he does your marriage can never make repairs. It's sad that some people place so much emphasis on looks that it destroys relationships. One thing I say and my H says is-so what you gained weight after 4 kids and a bout of major depression-so still are bery beautiful. And my Dr days I'm healthy as an ox-but I said yeah I don't want to be one. So I stuggle daily-but for me-not because I have a H that nags me or finds me repulsive. But after my last post I'm thinking he might just a little-LOL!! I say hang in there- do for you and your son. And he is jealous of him and the relationship you have with him. Some men just never grow up. Think about his past relationships-especially with his family. Was he they type to have everything done for him when living at home? Do his parents think he can do no wrong and is just the best son in the world?? I really feel for you. You do need to distance yourself until he gets counseling(which sounds like form what I've read he's not the type to be open to it) If headed for a divorce-you need to ask youself a few questions. Can I make it on my own? Will he want partial custody? How will that work?? Where will i live? How much support and I entitled to? What happens if I file first-what are my options-will he try and screw me in the end?? Will any of my family and friends support me emotionally and maybe financially if needed? IF you are positive about all these answers and there is no hope for you and your H, get out. He is mentally abusive and mental can turn into physical. No woman should have to deal with what you are dealing with because of a little weight gain. Maybe the A-a lot of garbage comes with that- but weight gain?? Don't stand for it. Sorry this is long-and I probably jumped around all over the place. But-best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

Hi calla,<P>Gosh, I must have written on every "fat" and/or "attractive spouse" need thread there has EVER been on this board.<P>How well I understand, since I have been very overweight (300 pounds) and also, like you, had an affair, even though at the time I weighed about 250 pounds -- good enough for the OM, but not "good enough" for my (then)H. <P>Unlike you though, my affair was (what I now know to be) an exit affair, which followed years of cheating and abuse by my (then)H. He then, in revenge, had more affairs on me.<P>That aside, the "fat" issue is very real to me. I have struggled with my weight for my entire life, and have weighed from 135 to 300 pounds all throughout my adult life. There were REASONS for the extra weight, and I wonder: have you worked through your reasons for your weight? My reasons were many:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>Protection of myself - I had been sexually abused in my childhood. A layer of fat keeps molesters away.<BR><LI>Control - Nobody can make me eat or not eat, I have control over THIS (at least) situation. {This, by the way is the crux of most eating disorders, according to what I've learned - of course self-esteem factors in too}.<BR><LI>Childbirth - gained weight easily, not so easy to take off.<BR></UL><BR>I guess there are more, but right this moment I can't think of them -- I have taken my BIG GUN migraine meds this morning and the headache's gone, but the residual "duh-ness" is still there...<P>You have a right to want to be loved for who you are... we ALL DO.<P><BR>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited June 29, 2001).]

Something I wonder in reading this string is, are you sure your husband withdrew from you prior to your A because of your weight issues? Is it possible his libido was decreased for some reason (having little to do with you or your being a mother)? If he was feeling less sexual in general, this can be a very confusing thing for men. And if he had gained weight and felt less attractive, that could compound his reasons for withdrawing from you. Much easier to place the reason for a decreased libido on a pudgy wife than to think it could be his "manhood".<P>This scenario actually led to my H's A. To make a short story long.....<P>I am overweight (although now losing and much fitter - AND more interested in sex...) and felt badly about myself for a long time. When my husband made advances I, now in retrospect can see, was not very passionate in my responses. He dealt with this for a long time. Then, he realized he was thinking about sex less, was not levitating off the bed in the mornings anymore - in general was less interested. He, instead of talk with me about (why should he consult the person who has made him feel rejected?) did the mid-life cliche. A charming and good-looking - and a very GOOD man - he was able to quickly find a young woman to take to bed. This did not "do the trick" for him. Like most incidents of decreased libido, stress and depression played a much larger role than "manhood". He stopped the A, cut it off. Of course, I found out a few months later and we are dealing successfully with it. <P>But the point is, perhaps your H doth protest too much about your appearance to him. <P>As for his checking out apartments...after all, you cheated on him. A lot of BS's consider moving out. I now I did. And I am crazy about my husband and 3 kids.<P>I don't know diddly about you or your H. No one does except for the two of you. I would say that the lion's share of being patient needs to come from you. If he is talking, even angrily, he is talking. The key is to make sure you are listening. <P>As for weight, there is no down-side to losing excess weight and being fit. Don't carry a 20-pound badge around with you. It serves no purpose.<P>[This message has been edited by MoreRoomInABrokenHeart (edited June 29, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by MoreRoomInABrokenHeart (edited June 29, 2001).]

MoreRoomInABrokenHeart,<P>I don't know about Calla, but I sure did like your post to her. You managed to say much more clearly what I have been driving at. I do hope she reevaluates a few things. He may be rewriting history and so may she.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Calla,<P>I’ve been following this thread and want to chime in here (bet you knew I would … lol)<P>You have gotten some good input here. <P>JL’s input is interesting. The one thing I don’t get about some men is that they seem to see children as a burden and as the woman’s responsibility. Once a child is born it is both parents responsibility. If both parents chip in equally to raise the child, the stress on the marriage is less; the couple has more time and energy for each other. I can understand that some men see children as a financial burden that might be a lesser issue to day since many women, including you Calla, contribute financially to the family. As a woman who assumed the bulk of the financial responsibility in my previous two marriages I have 25 years of experience of being the breadwinner. Is it scary some times? Sure. But most of the time it’s not even an issue. My feeling about it is that I am happy and proud to be able to provide well for my family. I love them and it’s one of the things I can do for them. I admit that today it’s quite nice to have a husband who shares my same feelings. <P>As for the weight issue. Leo Buscaglia says it best. “If you have fat thighs and your boy friend hates fat thighs, dump him, find someone who LLLOOOOVVVVVEEEEESSSSS fat thighs.” I am not suggesting that you dump your husband for this or that you not pay attention to his need. Leo’s word has just helped me put things into perspective with some humor. You are still loveable and attractive. And you don’t have to put up with mean hearted treatment from your husband over this. I know that appearance is a very big issue for some people. This goes for men and women both. But as long as a person is not slovenly, marriages can and do survive weight gain.<P>On the other had you husband has expressed that weight is an issue to him. He is communicating with you. Actually he has told you several things, directly or not…..<P>Lost time with you (conversation and recreational companionship)<BR>Stress of a child (family commitment)<BR>Weight (physical attractiveness)<BR>Hasn’t he complained some about this? Could be wrong.. (Financial Support) Maybe it’s just a minor need – not one of the top 5?<P>His telling you about your weight, though hurtful, is a start. Remember, your husband’s needs are unique to him. It is fruitless to argue that they are not fair. This is not about fair. Life is not fair, sometimes it jus plain sucks. This is about meeting your spouse’s needs.<P>This of it as an onion, as you peel one layer away, the next is exposed. Till you get to the heart – his heart.<P>If you can just accept this as a need, don’t analyze it. Just accept it. Loose the weight. If you need his help in watching your son while you work out, etc. ask him for the help. If the weight is gone it will no longer be an issue. And then perhaps the next layer of the onion will show itself. He will have face another issue. <P>And you will win no matter his response. One of the reasons I’m still on this site despite my own continued, very happy, marital recovery is that I am learning so much about the fine points of the MB philosophy. And one thing I have learned is that Plan A is about you learning, growing and becoming a better person. You will survive no matter what happens to your marriage. So any improvements you make to yourself are really for you, not only for your marriage and your husband. He may or may not come around. <P>My H and I have realized that to make the MB concepts work. A couple must live their entire life basically in Plan A.<P>Although I had not read the MB books until two months ago, the concepts are not new. What I like about Dr. Harley’s work is that he has tired the concepts together is a very nice, easy to follow manner. He presents the obvious in a way that makes it brilliant.<P>One of the other benefits I’m getting from being here on MB is that I’m reevaluating my previous two marriages through the MB lens. What I have found it when things started to fall apart in both of the marriages, instinctively went into a mode that looked like Plan A. In those days I had no name for it. I just did it, sometimes I faltered and some times it worked. I worked on myself and at the same time I tried to meet the needs of husbands who would not even try to cooperate. But in all of it I’ve grown into a person I really like and love. Unfortunately the marriages did not grow and did not work. But it takes two to make a successful marriage. (Don’t get me wrong here. I was not perfect. I contributed to the marital demise too. Though I tried not to, I am human.) Today I know that though I too was flawed in both of these marriages I did all that was humanly possible to save them. Unfortunately I was married to men who did not have the capacity to work on a marriage. The lack of capacity steamed from a different source for each of them, but in the end it was not there. I used to feel that I was a failure because I’d failed at those marriages. I now know that I was actually a great success as I did all that I could do. Today I am at peace with the divorces… I know that I did all that was humanly possible (for me) in those marriages. <P>I was far more careful in the choice of my third husband (SeenTheLight). He is much more like I am, willing to look oneself in the mirror and under the microscope in order to grow and improve our marriage. <P>This is a terrible time for you. I know it’s been very hard but I have seen you grow and change over the last few weeks. And it seems that your husband is responding.<P>Z <BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Everyone,<BR>My goodness, where to start, so much good input from all of you!!! I have many thoughts racing around my head, but I'll try to capture a few.<P>As far as my H goes...the only change i can notice is that he now occassionally appears to want to discuss my affair, i.e., the conversation we had a few nights ago that started this thread. He has not changed anything about the way he acts toward me or relates to me. He does not want to talk about our relationship, or what would have to be done to "fix" it.<P>My H is one of those people who believes that our emotions are mysterious, intangible things that we can't help and have no control over. Whatever they are, they are. As such, he believes that since his love for me is gone, it's not going to just "come back." The concept that love could be restored through hard work and effort is ludicrous to him.<P>Now i'll try to address certain things said by some of you (sorry in advance for anybody I don't speak to personally).<P>JL, you always give me food for thought and force me to grow in my thinking. Please don't take this wrongly, but I do think SOME of the difference in our perspectives may be generational (since I noticed you are just slightly younger than my Dad--I'm 30). In your generation, (my Mom backs me on this) it was much more expected that a woman would simply accept her husbands wishes and demands and do all she could to meet them--this was her major role and goal in life (my Mom actually INRONED sheets and underwear per my Dad's demands...they're long divorced, but again I digress). <P>My big question that I would appreciate your input (and anyone else's) on is whether or not emotional needs can become compulsive or be unreasonable. I can think of at least one poster on this forum whose H is SO NEEDY for affection that nothing she does is enough. If she sits on his lap at a family gathering, he wonders why she didn't put her arms around him and kiss him, too. She is constantly frustrated that she can't seem to meet this need no matter what she does. This is what I worry about with my H's apparently LARGE need for physical attractiveness. Sure, I can keep losing weight and working on how I look. It may or may not please him. But after working so hard on myself, will I come to resent his demands? I have to admit that I am happy for the weight I've lost so far. But I think the point he wants me to be at is further than I would need to go for my own satisfaction. What happens when meeting ENs makes the other spouse bitter or resentful? How much is too much? Please tell me what you think.<P>fullnest, you said some things that really struck a chord with me, particularly that "Some men never really adjust to the birth of a child...they loved the carefree life they had before..." Sadly, I believe this is true of my H. He says he loves our son, which I believe, but he says that if he had it to do over, he wouldn't have children. He regrets having our son. This hits me like a punch in the stomach. I can't imagine regretting our son, he's the light of my life. And the fact that my H emphatically states NO MORE CHILDREN is devastating to me. I know that I want more...and it doesn't look like that would happen with my H.<P>Also, fullnest, you asked about my H's family of origin...do his parents think he is the best son, can do no wrong, etc...well, let me answer that with a big YES, ABSOLUTELY. His family has long put him on a pedestal for his tremendous artistic talent, career successes, etc. In fact, sometimes it makes me slightly ill. But I won't go there...<P>MoreRoom, you asked why my H withdrew before my affair. So far all I can get from him is that he wasn't attracted to me, he was attracted to someone else, he feels unfulfilled artistically and apparently is just not where he thought he'd be at age 30. How this all figures into the falling apart of his love for me, I don't know. This is just what he's told me so far. More and more I realize that probably my H's biggest EN is Admiration. He became accustomed to that at a very young age and does not feel good about himself unless he gets lots. <P>Zorweb and Sheryl, you two echoed a similar thought...that I have a right to be loved for WHO I AM. This is a fundamental thing that I think most people believe, and to a degree I wonder how that fits into the Harley concept of doing all you can to meet your spouse's needs. My H has even said that he thinks if I make so many changes to myself for his sake, it will just make me resent him in the end. I've told him that if the changes are things that make me a better person all around, I don't see that happening...but I don't know about the rest. What if the person he wants me to be in order to meet all his needs successfully just isn't ME? And ditto for him meeting MY needs? He maintains that he's just not a physically affectionate or sexual person anymore. And I definitely still am. So is it too much to ask of him to try to be that way for me? This is a very big issue, and I would really like to hear what you have to say about this.<P>Please don't flame me for this, but...my OM was crazy about me as I am. He loves the way I look. This deposited MAJOR love units in my Love Bank. What does this mean? Sometimes I feel like I'll have to work 100 times as hard to get my H to like me half as much. This is depressing. of course, I realize all the OTHER advantages of staying married, but I admit I think a lot about the sex/affection issue because it's MY biggest EN.<P>Okay, I'm going now...hope to hear back from some of you, and thanks for listening. You all are wonderful!!!<P>calla<BR>

"He maintains that he's just not a physically affectionate or sexual person anymore. And I definitely still am. So is it too much to ask of him to try to be that way for me? "<P>Think about what you just said,Honey. Isn't that EXACTLY what JL and the other folks have been saying to you about HIS needs? I mean, why don't just just love him for what he is right now and not ask him to change for you? Don't get upset, I just SOUND like a pain in the butt. Just wanted you to think a minute.<P>Now, Hi. I haven't written to you before, but I have a little bit different take on this. I've read everyone's response and there are some very good points. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.....you deserve someone who loves you for who/what you are. <P>Quite honestly, I don't believe that's the issue. Or not as much the issue as you are making it. Look, from wayyyyyyy on the other side of this ride there are a few things I've learned:<P>1. Most of the time when you ask someone (BS OR WS) in this mess the "why" of anything, they really don't have a clue.<P>2. If they feel that they have to answer, what they come up with are generally the easiest, most superficial issues....the things that stare them in the face. Usually, although these things are minor annoyances, they have little or nothing to do with real reasons. At best, they're little parts of the real reason. <P>3. Many of our H's will tell us that "except for...." we were perfect wives. Don't believe them for a minute. Fact of the matter is they don't really remember 'cause all things are affected by the pain and trauma. History is not only re-written by WS's, but by BS's as well. It's human. Robert says I was. He says I am now. I've made changes, big ones. He doesn't see them. <P>I do not and have never agreed that wives should blindly "obey" their husbands wishes and, knowing JL as I do, I don't think you're on the mark there either. I DO believe that SPOUSES should do what they can to make the other happy within reason (see your quote I posted at the top) and I believe that's what JL and others have been saying.<P>Honey, it's not the weight. He's struggling too and that's what he grabs onto. Or completely your child. Husbands sometimes do withdraw after the birth of a child. The entire dynamic of the relationship is different. <P>Ok, lemme see if I can put this into some kind of perspective. I may take this a bit to the extreme, so no flames necessary, ok? Think of it as varying degrees at any time. Pregnancy - difficult and wonderful for us. We're all nervous and excited about the blessed event and the responsibility of a new life. And here it is. From your hubby's perspective.... <P>Beautiful little one - that you have supreme control over - he's a breadwinner and "helper" at best. You are the expert.<P>You're tired. All comsumed with mothering. Recovering from pregnancy without being able to get much rest. Maybe not particularly interested in sex. The center of your affection has shifted from hubby to infant. <P>Never again will he be "the" one. Junior is now. And he's having trouble balancing his joy with the fact that, in many, many ways, he's "lost" his wife. Couple that with<BR>the fact that he knows he SHOULDN'T feel this way 'cause it's his baby and he should be happy. <P>You're a bit heavier. He ties THAT with being more tired. With not being interested in sex. That weight and that child have taken away some of the things he liked about you and his life. <P>He's being selfish and he hates that and he can't make it stop. Add the fear of being a good dad, measuring up financially and emotionally, having trouble overcoming all the rejection (and it's there, just look). So he pushes it all aside and takes on his role as he should and a million bad feelings get buried. Withdrawal has begun. And we all know, once it begins in one spouse, it follows in the other.<P>Ahh, yes, "why didn't he just talk to me, TELL me?" We all ask that question and it took me a couple of years to figure out the reason. We simply make it impossible. We do. I don't care how many times we say "I'd have helped, I'd have been open, I'd have listened" - we most likely wouldn't. We haven't created the atmostphere for that type of honestly. Heck, Calla, did he help create the atmostphere that you could honestly come to HIM and tell him what you were missing (if you honestly could figure it out before - I couldn't) before you found it elsewhere? It usually works both ways.<P>Look at it this way. He DID come to you...with hints about something little that bothered him. The only way he really knew how. He was testing the waters. It wasn't making or breaking the relationship as you seem to think. However, when you didn't DO anything about this little thing after his hints, he felt he wasn't important enough for you to care what he thought. And THAT rejection CAN make or break a relationship. Had he said "Calla, Sweetheart, I love you and I feel terrible about this, but I've tried and tried to talk to myself and I can't seem to get anywhere. You're such a wonderful wife, a beaufiful person, such a terrific mother to our son and I just feel terrible - I can't even say it - but that little extra weight you've put on bothers me a bit and I don't know what to do! I feel so damned superficial but, for some reason it truly is affecting me and I needed to talk to you about it. I do love you for the wonderful woman you are adn I don't know why I can't get past this." Would you have said "Thank you for coming to me, Sweetheart, let's talk about this some more." Or more like, "I cannot believe you are so shallow. I gave birth to YOUR child, I work hard to make you happy and you're being a pain about 20-25 POUNDS!". Or,just burst into tears and make him feel like crap.<P>Calla, I've wasted all this time talking about the weight and the baby when actually, i think they're just the only things he could think of. He's in pain. He's scared. He doesn't know when this went wrong or really why. You've asked him to participate in rebuilding of a marriage that has has been touched on both sides by infidelity. And you're asking for 1-2-3 lists to change things and it just isn't that simple. So he grabs for little, tangible things that he ASSOCIATES with some of his bad feelings. They're not necessarily the cause, but there is an association.<P>Robert's account of what went wrong in our marriage to cause us to grow apart has changed tremendously. Pre-affair descriptions are completely different from things he said throughout our recovery and THOSE things changed constantly as well. Now, according to him, it was nothing at all!! <P>I found out more looking past his words, looking into myself. Getting rid of preconceived notions and rules. <P>Although it would be wonderful and easier if both spouses worked together toward full recovery, it rarely happens. "Heck yeah, Honey, lets read, do questionaires, POJA everything, see therapists and get this show on the road!" That the stuff of REAL fantasy - most of the time! Every now and then you'll hear of it, but, face it, after reading these boards a couple of years, usually one spouse, bs or ws, has to take the bull by the horns and just do it. Lead by example. Not by educating, but by quietly showing their spouse how it's done. Questionaires, relationship books, therapists - all dirty words in this house for a long time. The concept of POJA when first presented - well you don't want to HEAR what a waste of time he thought that was! but we DO it, we just don't call it that! <P>Change your approach. Honey, you've been through a lot too. And I know it's hard and not at all fair to you to have to shoulder this burden alone for a while longer. But please remember that is IS just for a while. And no matter what he says, what he does, he's not clear right now either. He's reeling from betrayal, (even in a withdrawn marriage, it STILL hurts), from an affair, from things we can only guess at, just like you are. The big difference. You're thinking more clearly. You're gathering the tools. You're learning to use them. Right now, you're the strong one, you really are.<P>My philosophy was alittle different. Robert absolutely refused to talk about the affair, our marriage, recovery anything for a while. Oh, MY! How could I make things better. By being honest with myself. By figuring out stuff on my own. I stopped talking about it and started doing what I could to make his life happy NOW, to make it pleasant right then and stopped worrying about the past. And it happened. We got happy. And once we did, he didn't mind TALKING about the other stuff anymore. Yeah, at first, I had to do the work and he was a pain in the butt. But now, I'm spoiled rotten. So is he. He more than does his part and we didn't even set the rules. So what if I had to do it at first. I'm getting more back now.<P>And, you know what? I realized the other day that d-day had passed this year and I didn't even realize it! (I remembered while posting to someone on this board). It can be worth the work, Honey, it really can. <P>Know what? Robert left me to live with a girl 20 years my junior. And once home, he had a hard time being attracted to me. "I know you're beautiful, but there's something about those young bodies." How's THAT for sounding superficial? Honey, It wasn't true. 'Cause today, I'm beautiful, sexy, the most wonderful woman in the world and I have NO complaints whatsoever about his libido where I'm concerned! Neither does he. what he said was crap, the only thing he could think of to explain his feelings (or lack of) at that point. I really think the same can be true of your hubby. Robert believed it then, but it was just a symptom. My guess is it's much the same in your case.<P>Time, effort, patience, love and faith. You can do this.<P>Love,<P>Lori

Lori,<P>You NEVER cease to amaze me!! <P><B>Calla</B>, listen to this woman!

Hey, where are all you guys???<BR>Wanting to get final thoughts on this thread!!!<P><BR>calla

calla, read my post over on Dazed's thread:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010076.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010076.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Lori,<BR>thanks much for your lengthy reply...I appreciate the time to took to write it. Your success story for your own marriage is wonderful, but i wonder...how typical is it? Are most couples able to save their marriages when only one of them is doing the work? Seems to me from much reading here, that it's hard enough when both spouses are pulling for recovery. But, this is truly an area in which I am not experienced, this being the first affair our marriage has encountered, and certainly not anything I ever expected I'd have to deal with.<P>I hear what you're saying about my H finding it difficult to tell me about not being attracted to me. I'm sure that would be a difficult thing to tell someone you are supposed to love for "better or worse" "for fatter or thinner," (oops, that one's not in there, sorry). It was NOT however, difficult for me to tell him how I was feeling or what I was missing in the marriage. It just didn't do any good!<P>As far as not obessing over the "reasons" he's giving me for falling out of love, well, I try not to--but how can you fix the problem without knowing what it is???<P>Lately, my H and I are both inclined to think the same thing--we just don't like each other anymore. Neither of us is the same person we were when we were married. I'm not the same physically, he's not the same emotionally. And frankly I'm SUPER depressed about the child issue. I always envisioned children being a big part of my happiness, and I dreamed of creating a loving and nurturing family life (i come from a broken home myself, quite scarred from the experience). Now all I hear from everyone here is how much of a negative effect children create in marriage. How much discord, jealousy, time shortages and exhaustion they cause. I'm not seeing much about children being fulfilling, and that's how I feel about them. My H doesn't want more. I do.<P>Again, I appreciate your thoughts here. I think you must be a strong and determined woman to rebuild your marriage without your husband's help, at least not in the beginning. But, I'm finding it difficult to even maintain my resolve when I see that he doesn't share it. I wish i could feel differently...<P>calla