As I read all the response to your original posting "So we made "love" again.....!!!! - ****!" I had to ask myself...<P>What the hell do you bother posting here for? <P>I'm curious. You KNOW how everyone here will react. And they have done so, some more harshly than others, some more than I would have imagined. Some have taken quite an offense to your post. But, from what I gather you do this now and then - when you drink. <P>Anyway, I was just curious. What does this site DO for you?<BR>I come here simply to understand, no one would ever give an OP sympathy here, as far as I've seen.<P>My story? I'm an OM who is trying to become single and do the "right" or "harley" thing. But, believe you me, I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL.<P>Anyway, thoughts anyone?<P>Djinn<P>

I have a thought. You're wrong about how OP are treated here. I should know, I was once an OW. I've been here for nearly two years. I'm loved by some, hated by others... but mostly, I am here to help others.<P>Are you married? Are you still an OM? Do you want to get support while you're working through this difficult time?<P>If so, you are welcome. <P>HF was welcome, despite her not being married. She had something of value to teach betrayed spouses. She had "the other side". All OP do. <P>Regret, remorse, and rebuilding are words that will take you a long way here...<P>So, allow me to offer you a welcome message:<BR>Hello and Welcome to Marriage Builders!<P>First, I would like to share two links with you. Just click on the underlined links here, and read –><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi10_tour.html" TARGET=_blank>Tour of Marriage Builders</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome</A>. <P>Please read everything you can on this site, post and read often!! <P>I have been betrayed and betrayer, so I have the dubious honor of knowing what infidelity does from BOTH SIDES of the situation. <P>I believe in the concepts espoused here, if applied properly. One idea that has worked *wonders* for some couples is Plan A. Read about it here –><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A>.<P>Use what you learn here to make your marriage a safe place where you do your best to meet the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> of your spouse,and avoid <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> whenever possible. . When a decision must be made, use the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A> to determine the final outcome that you can both agree upon.<P>Many couples find that counseling is VERY helpful, and the counseling provided here is excellent for several reasons; but the most important is that it goes along with the concepts here. Check it out here –> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><P>Again, welcome to our community, and feel free to write often and ask lots of questions!<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

To Sheryl:<P>Hey thanx, hun'.<BR>But I'm not married. I'm simply the OM who is slowly doing his best to remain AWAY from MW. It's funny, she too has been on BOTH sides of an affair. But enough about that. Right now the decision b/w staying and separating hangs in the balence the COMBINED need to salvage her marriage. I cannot be part of this decision, and she knows that better than I do. Yes I've been used, blah blah blah.<P>Thanks for the welcome! I just really don't get HF's motivation to post stuff like that. Unless she just gets a total rise out of everyone's despair. (this seems unlikely)<P>Djinn

I'll ask a question if you don't mind. Did you offer your MW a future at any point? My wife is with a single guy, that apparently has never offered a future, so of course I've wondered sometimes "what the heck is she doing", given that she had morals that were so high, before she met this guy.<P>It just seems to be one of those mutual arrangements that just keeps on going.

Djinn<P>RE: "no one would ever give an OP sympathy here, as far as I've seen"<P>If you will read humblefish's previous posts you will see that she got plenty of positive input from the members of this forum when we was working towards a goal that followed the stated purpose of this website.... to save marriages.<P>It is her continued, blatant melodramatics and self pity that I think people are responding to. Enough is enough.<BR>People on this website, for the most part, are sympathetic and reach out to anyone who is working towards the idea of building marriages.<P>You see slipups are not allowed in the fidelity game. One is either in an affair or not. I realize the difficulty of staying away from someone one has strong feelings for. But it can be done. The concept of “oh hee hee, bad me, I slipped again. I’ll try to do better next time.” Just does not work. I for one just do not have time to continue to waste my energy on someone who does not take fidelity, or themselves, seriously in these matters. Humblefish asked for help in stopping her affair. She got plenty of encouragement and support. Every few days she pulls a major dramatic stunt. She is very melodramatic, gets all sorts of attention. When the attention wanes, she pulls another. This is a typical game played by addictive people to get other sucked into enabling. Not a game I’m interested in playing.<P>It is so very hard in certain circumstances to convey to some people what it is like to be in certain positions. Some times all I can think of, is that I hope that every OP gets a chance to be a BS at some time in their lives so that they can understand that point of view.<P>As for me understanding the point of view of an OP? I understand the feeling of being in love with someone who I cannot have. I’ve been there. I was once in love with a man who lied to me about his marital status. I’ve told only part of this story before here on this board. As soon as I discovered his lie I broke off our relationship. Did it hurt? Sure it hurt. It hurt very much. But I could not continue a relationship under those circumstances. When he finally divorced his wife (The divorce has had nothing to do with me.) he looked me up again wanting to pick up where we left off. I could not do this because I remembered the pain he’d caused me and that he was capable of cheating on his wife and lying to both her and me about it. He remarried several years ago. And you know what, he’s been cheating on his new wife during their entire marriage. <P>So tell me. What have you learned on this web site now that you’ve been here a while? Just curious.<P>How do you think people here should response to OP who continue their affairs?<P>Z<P><p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 29, 2001).]

Djinn:<P>Welcome to MB. Welcome to the support and help and insights you can gain, not only to help MW work on salvaging her marriage, but also the insights you will gain about yourself and what marriage is all about. Information that will stand you in good stead when you are married.<P>Also, as stated above, there comes a point with some OPs where their actions become too detrimental to offset whatever good their OP perspective has done. Humblefish reached that point (as you can tell from the posts).<P>We are here to help each other ... but once it becomes too painful to too many, then it is time to show them the door.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<B>HumbleFish</B> - I guess I'm in the minority, but I think you should stay and participate. You are definitely doing the wrong thing, but I think deep down you know that and really want to break the cycle. You just need to take that "deep down" feeling and distribute it throughout your psyche.<P>Just try to ignore those who attack you. They are just acting from their own pain and insecurity. They come back again and again to read your posts, in some cases, because it brings their personal pain back to the forefront and allows them to deal with it. Most don't even realize they do this, but if that wasn't the case, they would just ignore your posts.<P>Unfortunately, as a society, we are choosing the easy way out....blame someone else. You obviously have problems with self-control because you are having difficulty doing what you know is right. Those who go out of their way to attack you are also having self-control problems. They keep coming back to read your posts even though they know that they will feel pain in doing so. And because they don't have the self-control to avoid your posts, they blame you for writing. So you see, you do have something in common with those here trying to rip you apart.<P><B>STL -</B> You are obviously a very bright guy with your heart in the right place, and God knows, I don't feel good having to cross swords with you again, but here goes(Please don't receive this as a "personal" attack, I'm just using your post as a starting point)...<P>When the pain becomes too great, "showing them the door" is wonderful advice, when it is <B><I>your place</I></B>. The last I knew, this is the <I>Harley's</I> place. If there is anyone justified in showing someone "the door", it is them. If you don't like what someone is posting, report it to the moderators and let them make the decisions as to who stays and who goes. For you and many others, ignore what you consider offensive posts. What is offensive to you may actually be helpful to someone else.<P>Many here profess to being devoutly religious. Is kicking someone viciously when they are down something supported in Scripture?? I'm not religious, so maybe there are teachings about this and I'm not aware. I was under the impression that Christianity was all about charity, goodwill, toleration and forgiveness. These are four traits that we need to practice towards HF right now.....

DeWayne,<P>Great advice about staying away from posts that bother you. I also fell that it is the job of the moderators to tell people whether or not they belong on the boards, not the job of the posters.<P>I feel this site has become far too judgemental. So many people "knowing" what somebody's motivation is and jumping on their "knowledge" of that.<P>I do my best to not get too emotionally involved and if I can't say something in a supportive way I don't say anything at all.<P>I don't consider myself to be a BS supporter, a WS supporter an OP supporter or even a "HumbleFIsh" supporter. I try to be, for the most part, a people supporter. HF is a person. She happens to be an OW who is having a very difficult time ending an affair.<BR>As I had said in reply to her post had she been a WS and been talking of failing again (remember folks she has only been posting here for about a month - some WS post about slipping into affair mode several times months after they began posting) most posters would have jumped to her support, telling her to "get back up on that horse", "tomorrow is another day", "begin fresh", "You <B>CAN</B> do it".<BR>This isn't simply an opinion it is a conclusion that I have come to by reading and posting here over the past almost 2 years. Many of the "old timers" would agree.<P>If a post or poster brings you too much pain then stay away from that particular poster.<P>It has saddened me to see the way some people have been treated on this board in the last little while, it is time once again for us to practice as heartpain said the christian principals of "charity, goodwill, toleration and forgiveness".<P>God Bless and Take Care<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited June 30, 2001).]

DeWayne:<P>Au contraire to crossing swords. Healthy discourse only.<P>Note that I said "show them the door" and not "heave them through it" ... as a forum, I expressed my opinion, which is what everyone else here does.<P>As for Christian values etc. ... yes, those are fundamental principles in my life; yet, like George Carlin says, I don't go nailing souls on the native's feet. [There are many on this site who are not Christians, there are Moslims, Jews, agnostics, aetheists, etc. as well. MarriageBuilder's princicples transcend religion (although they also incorporate the fundamental values of the major religions.]<P>There are many other forums where putting those tenets to practice is the stated goal. Here, however, the stated goal is saving marriages. And yes, indirectly, if one made an impact with HumbleFish and those like her, one could argue that it helps to save a marriage in that way.<P>There is also tough love: when someone repeatedly falls down, repeatedly shows that they are incapable of benefiting from sage advice given (and, in this case, HumbleFish has received tons), and it repeatedly causes others pain; then you must point them elsewhere (in my case to tell her to get good professional help).<P>As for the "don't read it, etc." approach: I do not know how others browse this site, but I try to look at as many posts as possible. For in each of them, I try to find something to benefit me. I suspect many others do the same. On occasion, I find a topic or subject where I feel my words may be of some benefit, in which case, I respond. My response to HF was essentially that: go find professional help (alcoholism, her current relationship).<P>You are correct in stating that in cases of WS's falling off the horse, no matter how many times, we should dust them off and put them back on. Essentially this is because the two persons having the largest impact on marital recovery are the WS and the BS. OPs post here too, and from many we have learned, and in many cases taught them. My concern, however, when OPs reach a certain point that is detrimental (in my opinion) to others AND to the stated goal of this site, is for those who are more actively pursuing the MB philosophy.<P>Even Jesus, to use a religious context (e.g., the tax collectors at the temples) was not adverse to showing someone the door. In the cited example, he did so because their practices were detrimental to what the purpose of the temple was all about.<P>All just my opinion, of course.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited June 30, 2001).]

There comes a point when we have picked a person up so many times that the help turns into enabling. One of the best ways to break an addictive pattern is to let the addicted person see and feel the pain they are causing others. It is not Christian (or what ever value religious value system you want to choose), it is not kind to let a person wallow in the pain of their own making.<P>Also, remember that the input and opinion of EVERY member of this forum is valuable. Not just those that are well versed in MB. Unfortunately there do not seem to be a lot of “old timers” here who can guide the “newcomers”. Instead we all bring our lives experiences here. Over time we will each get from this forum what we seek and hopefully give something of value in return.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

<B>Nicole - </B> I didn't respond personally on HF's post because I thought you presented what I wanted to say much more eloquently. BTW, I am saddened by the current turn of events for you and Arik. You both have my best wishes and devout desire that life works out for you both...<P>{{{{{{{{{{Nicole}}}}}}}}}}<P><B>STL - </B> I had no problem with your advice to HF. She certainly does need professional help. I don't think she is going to be able to do this herself.<P>I try, also, to read each and every post. I guess my point was that it is the <I>response</I> that isn't necessary if one is offended. I just kinda adds fuel to the fire, so to speak, and ends up being destructive for both parties.<P>Maybe just your opinion, but it speaks well for you and the point you are making....<P><B>Zorweb -</B> You are 100 percent correct. But tough love is not destructive and that was the intent of some of HF's respondents. You and STL aren't like that. Say it like it is, pull no punches, but fight fair and clean...<P>I just hate it when people are told by others to "leave". Some deservedly so, like the OW posters on the P/OC board, but if I am hurt by someone's post, I won't insist they leave, just ignore them.....<P>STL is right...this is healthy discourse. My fond wishes and complements to you and STL on the long hard road you have both successfully travelled....<P>--DeWayne--

DeWayne:<P>You are [probably (stricken)] correct in that NOT responding to an offensive post is the correct way to go if the [respondent's] objection is stated in a negative, hurtful way.<P>As humans, though, we (myself being definitely included) often emote before we intellectualize. But that, too, is part of the learning and healing process.<P>See you all on Monday,<BR>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited June 30, 2001).]