Dave,<P>Sorry I'm arriving late. Was outside with my kids all day so far. Just came in and found your post. I think you did an incredible job at handling the discussion with OM.<P>The stuff that you heard was enough to really hurt and make you very angry, but you didn't react. Good job, your usual fashion.<P>I'll send the limo for you. Be back later to check what is happening.

WAT,<P>I'm not an expert, obviously, but I think that somehow you need to keep the affair(s) in the letter somehow. Granted, around here we usually treat affairs as a symptom, but it seems to me that the Plan B letter has, as one of it's goals to make it crystal clear to the WS that you cannot put up with promiscuity either emotional or physical on your WS part. You make them come back, if they do, with the knowledge that there can be no one else at all.<P>Maybe the thing to do is reference it in the abstract instead of the concrete.<P>Just my 2 cents worth,<P>Ish

Dave,<BR> I would leave the part about the infidelity in the letter. That and the lying are the crux of what is so painful. You want to make clear to her, that you have isolated the behavior that has been so painful to you, that it is the behavior, that you will no longer allow to be a part of, or even interface with, your own life. If she lies or is unfaithful it's going to have to be done apart from you. If she is willing to give it up, you are willing to forgive and be a apart of building something better.

sad_n_lonely,<P>I have seen you post before like this. You are filled with bitterness about your own marriage and project it here. The bitterness is YOUR fog. If you want to wallow in it and poison your life with it, so be it, but please don't spew it out here. Your references on this "Marriage Builders" site to having to go "fight" with your wife make me feel ill. You have the tools in front of you and the advice all around you - the resources are here, yet it seems you persist in believing that you cannot make your marriage better because of who it is you are married to.<P>Well, then, maybe you need a divorce!<P>There is no way for us - BS or WS to know that someone really means "no" if all they say to us is "yes" - and when push comes to shove, the person who cannot ask for what they want and cannot say what they really mean is responsible for their own misery.<P>I am not even going to apologize for my harsh words, because you really pissed me off with your small-minded blaming attitude on this thread - and on others in the past.<P><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

I believe I did put in the appropriate (and civil) disclaimers WAT, I can understand you're a bit sensitive (who isn't here), but I did respond (honestly and without malice) to the tone of your post as well as your content, do with it as you will. I really don't think your W issue was really the money, my point was to try to get you (and the other controllers here) to see life (with you) through our eyes. Yes you are articulate, humorous, and no doubt a great guy, and father, but you also project a lot of righteous power, and that I have little doubt is why your wife has issues. An affair is obviously not the solution (and that is her issue) but it is very difficult to live with a strong-willed person, and their efforts to make their (and our) lives be what they think they should be. I can appreciate the mutual admiration society here, it is a BS support board (for the most part in practice), but I do see some other things in your posts, and decided to comment, knowing full well what my fate would be in doing so. Sorry if that offended you, if you prefer I will not comment any further on things you write.<P>Terri.... I read your comments, will not defend myself, just letting you know I will think about what you said.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 30, 2001).]

SNL - Me, a controller? If anything, I'm co-dependent. But, I do not have to convince you.<P>Righteous power? Well, I admit that many of us here (both BSs and WSs) may come across sometimes as pompous. This is due to our reason for being here, to uplift ourselves after experiencing the most denegrating emotional event in our lives.<P>WAT

Implementing the MarriageBuilders principles is not an easy thing, but it is so worthwhile. From the perspective of a BS attempting to better themselves in the hope their marriage can be saved, to a WS remorseful for their actions and trying their best to make amends, or even a couple just trying to make the best marriage possible, we all have one thing in common: trying to implement these principles. It is absolutely <B>required</B> that we examine ourselves, our motivations, and our place in where our marriages currently stand in <I>order</I> to implement them properly. We have to look inwards to a degree we never thought we would ever have to. In doing so, by being honest with ourselves in regards to what we find gives us the direction we need to go. <P>Dave couldn’t have done as well as he has by fooling himself (or us) with his past or his motivations. Fogspeak is Fogspeak, and Dave’s OM (and his W) are full of it. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited July 02, 2001).]

Dave/WAT:<P>Not really adding anything new here: just a reiteration that the references to the affair(s) should remain in the Plan B letter; and also just to let you know that I am thinking of you and your family.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL