I am the WS. I'm trying to show/let my Spouse know that I know how much I have hurt her. I am remorseful, sorry, am in marriage counselling. We both have read the HNHN and I found it to be very helpful. <P>I was in a funk emotionally and didn't know how to express or even describe the feelings I was having. I knew that they were not healthy. I guess you could say I was an emotional midget. I was surfing porn on the web and endup with cybersex. I did not have sex with anyone else nor did I want to. I can't seem to explain it in terms that my spouse will understand. <P>I have read several books and have now turned over a new leaf. The topics within the POJA, Radical Honesty etc are so good. If I had followed them earlier we would not be going thru all this pain now. <P>I get down know how much my selfish act has hurt my spouse. I don't want to downplay what has happened but at the same time it could have been alot worse. How do I adapt? <P>I agree (POJA) on the pornography. I agree on the Honesty. But how do we move past and start building instead of constantly tearing down? I always loved my spouse and still do. Any suggestions?<P>Phantom.

Phantom - assuming you are sincere, you are well on your way to finding all the answers you need. Be patient and they will come to you through your work.<P>You are welcome here as the WS. Please encourage your wife to come here as well.<P>Please tell us the state of your relationship with your wife and describe her current attitude.<P>WAT

Phantom:<P>Your head is where it should be: out of the fog. Your heart, from your words, is also in the right place.<P>I am an exWS (have been the BS too) and the course you are embarking on will be a long, but ultimately fulfilling one.<P>Remember the four rules: Time, Honesty, Care and Protection. You didn't state whether the two of you had done the Emotional Needs questionnaire. If not, that is something you both need to do. My wife (zorweb, who also posts here) and I do a weekly EN followup, just so we both know if we are, in fact, meeting each other's emotional needs.<P>Beyond that, it is one day at a time, one step at a time. Eventually you will look around and be surprised how far those individual steps, when taken altogether, have taken you.<P>Godspeed and prayers,<BR>STL

Hi.<P>I am the BS. I have been posting here just this week. I am in an emotional turmoil. I want so desperately to believe that my H has changed his ways, but the hurt and deceived part of me says "watch your back"! He had gotten so good at looking me in the eyes and lying to me. Sometimes I feel that he minimizes my pain by saying things like "it could've been a lot worse, or that my emotions are partially coming from other areas of my life right now". I can sit here and tell you that the pain that I feel is a direct result of the infidelity. <P>We are still living together in the same house and we are actively trying to rebuild. Some days are good, some days are not. I am trying to get my emotions under control. It has been 4 months now since D-Day and I have just been put on meds for anxiety.<P>I think one of my biggest problems is that I have been looking back over the whole marriage of 19 years. There have been many instances where my feelings have not been considered. He chose to "fit in" with the guys over me on many occasions. Knowing exactly where my stance was on these issues. All of the issues I am talking about had to do with porn, strip clubs things of this nature. Now cybersex? How do I get this out of my head?<P>NM

Phantom and NewMe2001, <P>I am responding to your post a little late so I hope you two are still around. It’s wonderful that the two of you are posting here. As he stated above, I am SeenTheLight’s (STL) wife. We have both been posting here for a while. This site offers a lot of support and information that can help you rebuild your marriage and recover from your husband’s affair.<P>By the way, above STL says that he has been a BS before… His previous wives left him for other men. Just want to you to know that it was not I. (LOL)<P>First things first, read the books “Surviving an Affair”, “His Needs, Her Needs”, and “Love Busters” by Dr. Harley. STL and I read the books together. It was a wonderful joint learning experience. Also read all of the material on this website. Marriage Builders will provide you with the road map to recover your marriage.<P>Then implement the POJA, the four rules of honesty, protection, time and care. Do the emotional needs questionnaire and the personal history questionnaire. This stuff works. I know it does from personal experience. <BR>STL and I are well into recovery from his affairs. <P>D-day for us was a little over 3 months ago. Today we are happy and closer then we ever have been. I do not believe that we would be this far into recovery, or quite honestly still together, if we had not stumbled on the MB material and this web site. Here is link to our story:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000730.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000730.html</A> <P>Do I still have moments of doubt? Yes, but as time goes on they are fewer and fewer because STL is doing some very concrete things to rebuild my trust. After an affair trust must be earned back. It is not automatic and it is not up to the BS.<P>RE: “I'm trying to show/let my Spouse know that I know how much I have hurt her. I am remorseful, sorry, am in marriage counseling. We both have read the HNHN and I found it to be very helpful. “<P>I wanted to share with you the things my husband did to show me that he knew how much he hurt me and that he was sorry. You are probably doing some of the same things but I hope there are some here that will help you.<P>------Stopped all contact with the other women and stopped chatting.<BR>He did this on d-day. It as his suggestion and he did it without my asking. This went a long way with me.<P>------- implemented MB<P>The very first thing he did was to whole-heartedly agree to the rules of honesty, protection, time and care. <P>------ took responsibility without blaming or discounting me<P>He told me that he knew that what he had done was wrong and that he had hurt me. He took total responsibility for his actions. He has never said that anything I did contributed to his affairs. He also told me that he has always loved me, still does and will do whatever it takes to keep me in his life.<P>Does this mean that our relationship was perfect? No, there is no such thing as a perfect relationship. What it means is that we are both responsible for the state of our relationship be he is solely responsible for the choice to have affairs. He stood in front of me and apologized to me, taking full responsibility like man. Like the good, loving man I know he is.<P>What was my responsibility in this? I felt that I had to accept his apology at face value. When he apologized I could see the pain in his eyes. I could see that he meant what he was saying. Yes, he too had gotten very good at lying to me. But we had to start somewhere. The pain was real. The remorse was real. <P>-------is helping me heal<BR>Then he told me that since he was the one who hurt me, it was his responsibility to help me heal.<P>For about the first 8 weeks after D-day, I was driven to talk about it. The poor, dear man to listen to me talk about it over and over. He answered all of my questions. When something he said hurt me, was more then I could take, he would hold me while I cried. It hurt him to see the pain he had caused but he was strong and loving enough to be here with me through this. At about the 4th week, we got smart and set aside a one-two hour block each day, well before bed time, to discuss my newest questions and thoughts. We found that worked best because then I could sleep. I had to work out each days issues. He also listened to me the few times I had a driving need to tell him how angry I was at him.<P>My counselor told me that WS must do penitence for their affair. They must do this in a way that heals both the BS and the WS. The WS must answer every one of the BS’s questions honestly and patiently, over and over until there are no more questions. Te BS must tell the WS of the hurt and anger as many times as they need to until there is no more hurt and anger.<P>STL was patient with me. He answered my questions, talked with me, listened to me express my anger and hurt. We went through this daily for 8-10 weeks. Today, about 14 weeks after d-day I am not angry any more, the hurt is now only the smallest twinge from time to time. My questions have been asked and answered. I’m down to about one question a week now. And they are more superficial ones. We really have not talked about his affairs in about 4 weeks. We talk about recovery.<P>Sure, once in a while I get a twinge of hurt or an image goes through my mind. Usually I can let go of them. If I cannot I tell STL and we talk about it. But to me the affairs are over.<P>It is going to take NewMe2001 a long time to get over this. Being betrayed by a spouse is one of the worse things that can happen to a person in this life. The usual recovery time is 2 years. Some people can take up to 10 years. <P>Saying things like "it could've been a lot worse, or that my emotions are partially coming from other areas of my life right now". Only serve to minimize your wife and make her hurt more. Just realize that it was what it was. It was betrayal. I know how involved, deep, stimulating, etc an Internet affair can be. They are not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Accept that this till take your wife some time to get over. Be patient and loving with her.<P>There are two key elements here. <P>The first is honesty. We have adapted the rule of total radical honesty. Telling lie to protect me because the truth would be hurtful, is still telling a lie. It is worse to tell the lie. I can deal with the hurt. But a lie, even when told for protection, is only a lie. When a person who was lied tells a lie for any reason, it proves one more time that the person cannot be trusted. So always tell the truth, always.<P>I knew that if I wanted my husband to tell the truth then I had to make it safe for him to tell the truth. I could not use it to hurt him back or to punish him. Yes I could honestly show and speak of my hurt, but I could not love bust (yell, scream, incriminate, humiliate, lay guilt, etc etc) Love busters teach a person that it is not safe to tell the truth. I have thanked my husband many times for being having the strength to be truthful with me. Why did I thank him for something that perhaps should have been a given. Because at that point in his life it as hard. It took a lot of strength to look me in the eye and admit what he had done. And I know that many, many people do not tell the truth. Read this forum.. those of us whose spouses are working on our marriages have a lot to be thankful for.<P>RE: “I get down know how much my selfish act has hurt my spouse. I don't want to downplay what has happened but at the same time it could have been alot worse. <P>This is a cop out. An affair is when emotional and/or sexual energy goes outside of the marriage. It does not matter if actual physical contact was made. It was an affair. There was a sexual act performed. You may not have had sex with someone else in person, but you had sex with someone else nonetheless. Cybersex is sex. I know that for a fact. I don’t want to get graphic here so I won’t. But if you have engaged in cybersex you know that. So don’t try to fool your wife. She is obviously not that naive.<P>If you want to earn back your wife’s trust…. Tell it to her like it is. Be honest and strength forward…. “I had sex with another women. It may have been cybersex but it was indeed sex. I am glad that I never took it any further. But it was indeed sex and I am very sorry for doing this and hurting you and our relationship.”<P>Weaseling is a form of lying. Don’t do it! <P>------is taking responsibility to earn back my trust<P>"extraordinary precautions must be taken to guarantee separation"... He has done the following:<BR>1. sent no-contact letters to each of the women<BR>2. radically honest<BR>3. Stopped all communication (phone, e-mail, chat, etc.)<BR>4. Accounting for time (can always be reached by cell phone – we are working on making work better when he is traveling)<BR>5. Accounting for money<BR>6. Spending leisure time together<BR>7. put monitoring software on all of our computers<BR>8. gave me the passwords to all of his email accounts, chat accounts, and computers<BR>9. Deleted all buddy lists and email addresses with me present<BR>10. has promised to tell me if any of his X-other-women try to contact him. This happened early on and he told me.<BR>11. Does not get upset if I ask him if he has had any contact with the X-other-women. I do this maybe every two weeks. Usually I’ll start to have a panic attack and have to ask him. He knows it’s my insecurity and not an accusation. He just says no, I’ll let you know if it happens. And then I’m ok again. Silly but it’s one of the things I need at times. <BR>There may be other things you can put in place depending on your lifestyle and situation.<P>...all of the above is good... but a step further for "sexual addicts"... having monitoring software on all their computers... a tough decision... but for him to affirm his commitment... it may be needed. <BR>Check out Books and Other Useful Sites for info on "sexual addiction".<P>Sorry this is so long.. <BR>Z<P><BR>

Phantom/NewMe2001:<P>I am zorweb's H. A brief insight from my side:<P>It was very, very hard to come forward fully the first few days ... my previous experiences had not reinforced the concept of a "white lie" being just as hurtful as a lie. As my W mentioned above, we fortunately found this site and Dr. Harley's books.<P>We also found a lot of good folks here.<P>Phantom: When telling the truth, it does not have to be graphic, explicit truth: fess up to the who/when (and why, if you have figured it out) ... but the how violates the rules of protection and care ... and she didn't push for it.<P>Remember always, that YOU inflicted upon her a devastating mental and emotional trauma. It is your responsibility then, despite her episodes of anger (and yes, there will those moments), to nurture her, reassure her, comfort her. Sometimes by holding, sometimes by giving her room to vent (what I would call controlled Love Busting ... because I said it was OK for her to vent, it was then not an LB).<P>NM2001: You must give him the room to be honest and not use his words as basis for attack. Question, requestion to your heart's content: but do so in a loving, caring way. This is not easy for him either. It is going to take both of you giving 100 percent to recover from this.<P>A last word: give it that 100 percent, implement all of MB and Harley's methods, and you will ultimately realize a marriage and relationship far, far deeper and fulfilling than before. As for depositing love units, check out Gregory Godek's 1001 Ways to be Romantic ... ka-ching!<P>Godspeed to you both,<BR>STL

Z and STL..<P>First let me thank you for your insightfull replies. I did have cybersex and then lied to cover it up and this was very very hurtful for my wife. I am deeply sorry for what I have done and accept full responsibility for what has happened. I am posting this while NM2001 is sitting next to me and she will post after I am finished.<P>we have read HNHN and are reading Surviving Infidelity. We have also read After the Affair. Our marriage was good. My mind was screwed up. I put way to many things in front of her needs (heck, I'm not even sure I understood what her needs were then as I was too wrapped up in my own pity party).<P>There are times that things go really good then there are the times as you mentioned that she shows anger and hurt. I have problems knowing when to give space or when to hold and comfort. NM has said first assume to hold me then if I tell you to go and give me some room then that is what I need. I will and plan to give her all the comfort and nuturing that she needs. I firmly believe in POJA and Radical Honesty, Time, and safe places. We are working on this. It would have been so much easier if I hadn't strayed. <P>Time will help, and I will be doing everything humanly possible to show her how much I am sorry and how much I love her. She is the best thing that has ever happened to me.<P>Thanks for your insights again and best wishes to both of you.<P>Phantom.

phantom & NewMe2001,<P>I have so much hope for the both of you. You are on the right path. Do keep coming here as there is support for both of you. <P>Z

Phantom:<P>I can now readily report that the Phantom fog reported on earlier weather reports has lifted and is headed out to sea.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Z and STL,<P>Thank you so very much for your posts. I think that we are well on our way to recovery. I no longer feel like I am dying inside. We are spending more time together and talking more than we have in years.<P>I wish that when I first found out about all of this we could've found this website. We did however read HNHN within the first month after D-Day. I also wish that Phantom could've been more nurturing, but he really didn't know how. I think this is one of the things that made me think he was minimizing my pain. I am here to tell you that this is the worst pain I have ever felt in my life. But it is getting better.<P>My father has just been diagnosed with terminal cancer, 6 months or less. They are living with us right now. They moved in with us about 2 months after D-day. This has been most stressful. Phantom sometimes thinks that some of my emotions are coming from this as well. Maybe a little. I am sad that my dad is dying, but the hurting in my heart is from the infidelity. I want him to know this. <P>I am doing everything I can do to make it safe for him to talk to me. No more angry ourbursts or disrespectful judgements. Calm and cool. That's where I try to be. Slipping occasionally, but always apologizing. It's not the infidelity now that I slip with, it's feeling like this whole thing is being minimized.<P>My own father sat in his kitchen and told me that this is not that unusual for a man. He asked me "do you know how lonely it gets in a hotel room"? I shot back do you have any idea how lonely it gets in your own house? He told me I would be hard pressed to find a man that doesn't look at pornography. I beg to differ. That was the biggest argument we ever had.<P>Again, thank you for your insight and sharing your story with us. I think we will definitely be around here for a long time.<P>One question - How do you get to be a member as opposed to a junior member?<P>NM

NM:<P>You get to be a Member by doing exactly what you are doing: participating.<P>I am glad that zorweb's and my words have helped. After all, that is what we are all here for. To help and to be helped.<P>Ah, your father ... write it off to old-world fog, okay?<smile><P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Z and STL,<P>Thanks for you inputs. NM and I were talking this evening about your comments about minimizing. NM felt I was minimizing and I felt I was allowing an open mind that for "what else may be going on - per my therapist". I have not been good at verbalizing (my father is blunt I guess I picked it up and didn't try to put it down). I am working on thinking about how and what I say. <P>I do not want to "MINIMIZE" her pain. I know that I did have cybersex and view pornography. And I am glad that it did not go any further (thanks for the way you put that Z). I told NM tonight that it will take as long as she needs it to take for her to feel better about all this. It is not her mother's my father's our therapist or anyone elses time schedule but her's and I will be there every day when we wake up and when we go to sleep to let her know that I am sorry for what I did. <P>We are reading like crazy. She did me a big favor and found the books that I was looking for (the man in the mirror - Morley and 1001 ways to be romatic Godek). Thanks for the suggestion there STL. <P>I don't know why or how but I stand here a changed man. Before I was always angry but not knowing why. I'm exercising patience (with myself and others) and not being so Type A driven personality. I'm exercising Radical Honesty (with myself also). These two areas are where I let the demons in. By not being patient with myself I put mucho grande pressure to "perform" on the job, home, etc and ended up not really doing anything very well (especially my relationship with NM). Everything operated according to a time schedule (ARGH..how boring now that I look at it).<P>I've changed jobs and am not traveling at all now. Before I was on the road alot (sometimes up to 19 days a month). I'm giving my self lots of room for the little HELLO's that God gives us (before I'd schedule 110% of my time). Little wonder that by the end of the day I'd be emotionally and physically exhausted. <P>We are talking more. Talking more about different subjects. Exploring the Recreational Survey and the Emotional needs (not formally but just discussing). I feel closer to her that I have in years and it makes me happy. But...Always a but and my therapist says I have a huge one.. lol. I look at her and I see the hurt I've caused. I don't show it much but it does make me very sad, melancoly, etc. <P>I am trying and getting better at understanding and showing compassion. I will be there for her as long as she needs me and wants me there. I do love her.<P>Thanks again for your insights.<P>Phantom

Phantom,<P>Your response is beautiful. I can see in it much of what I see in SeenTheLight. You are definitely struggling with what you have done; struggling with your own hurt and the hurt you have caused NM. From what you say you are being supportive and loving of her. I am so glad to hear all this.<P>You talk about how suddenly you are a changed man. I wonder if your NM can say that same thing about herself. This experience can only change you. It is up to each of us to take responsibility for the direction that change takes. <P>I know that I am change. I have found strength that I would have never found with out having lived through this. I believe that STL has changed too… though he would have to be the one to talk of that. But, I do know that our relationship is changed forever. At first I was angry because the innocent love was lost. But now it is replaced by a more mature and deeper love. And it is also a romantic love. The quality of our relationship has changed.. it is deeper, richer, stronger then it ever has been. And the icing on the cake is that we discovered the MB material and am now aware of the work we must do to keep our marriage on track.<P>Z

Phantom:<P>I used the hurt I felt at causing zorweb pain as a goad to give myself totally to eradicating the pain I've caused.<P>Somewhere in the process, that motive fell by the wayside: I meet her needs because I love to do it. She makes me feel wonderful by meeting mine. Radical honesty has opened many, many new doors for us.<P>So here is the big payoff: you both have experienced the pain. Look now to experiencing the rewarding joy of fully implementing MB's philosophy. In each step further from the pain, you will realize an ever-increasing joy.<P>Godspeed and prayers,<BR>STL