This is a response to Rick37's question about the family's Sunday Picnic.<P>I'll start by saying; AUGHHHHHHHHHH! <P>OK, W show's up and hour and a half early, we were at the pool. It was a pleasent surprise, however I was caught off guard and was not ready. She got her suit out of her car and jouned us. I asked her if she got off early from work, she did not work today. Did house work, cut the lawn etc. I replyed; I thought you were gonna do that on Friday night? JK is getting ready to do some major LB'ing. I have lots to do around the house. <P>I did some major LB'ing about her revionist history and imature bahavior, she threatened to leave.<P>After a tenious 30 minutes, I aploigized, and we got back on track. Played and tickeled a bit in the pool.<P>She was going to bring food from work for the picinc, I made cup cakes with the four year old, decorated with hearts. She did not work, so we had to go out to eat.<P>When we were getting ready she played one of our favoriate songs. She was cold, so I gave her a sweatshirt. It is form the weekend we fell in love. She cryed when I gave it to her.<P>I put my arm around her and hug her, we talk tenderly, and she says: I t you want me, why do you push me away? I miss you and love you and I'm frustrated. We talk tenderly and I play with her hair.<P>We have a nice dinner, she has 2 margratias.<P>Get back to my place and says to daughter, what do you think if mommy stays tonight?<P>I was dumb founded. We put 1 year old to bed. Talk with 4 year old for 30 minutes and W decides to leave, dog needs a walk.<P>She calls an hour later;<P>{daughter} asleep? Yep. <P>W; So how about that physical tension between us. <P>JK; What do you mean? <P>W; You know the sexual tension between us.<P>JK Emenating form whom?<P>W; BOth of us.<P>JK: well, I don't know about you I havn't had it since January.<P>W: it's been a while.<P>JK: What do you want to do about it?<P>W: Nothing, it's just sex.<P>JK I don't think so.<P>W; If I would have stayed something wouyld have happened.<P>JK: Maybe, maybe not.<P>W: Something would have happened. <P>JK: What would like to happen?<P>W: I don't know, its just sex, changes subject, call waiting beeps, its her parents, so she says she'll call me back.<P>1 hour later.<P>W: where were we.<P>JK: Why don't you load the dog in the van and come over and make love to your husband.<P>W: Laughs, plan B?<P>JK: OK How bout I load the kids in the truck and come over and you make love to your husband?<P>W: Laughs, OK plan C<P>JK; HOw about, phone sex. <P>W: Laughs.<P>JK There's always wednesday (family time for teh 4th)<P>W; changes subject.<P>Conversation turns to OM (still off)<P>My blood boils and I do some LB'ing, catch my slef after 5 minutes, and change subject. <P>I make it light and fluffy and say good night.<P>THis morning we talk from cell phone on the way to a Dr appoitment for the one year old. Wea re meeting there, light and pleasnt cionversation and she infoms me she tells people she is going throught a divorce.<P>I ask why she hasn't filed, she replys, because she can't afford it. I ask her if that what she really wants? She say s yes, I said are your sure, what was last nioght about?<P>She say I'm sure.<P>I'm dumbfounded again.<P>We meet and its light and pleasent, we even have a cute game of toy throwing, Initated by me at each other, and laugh alot. <P>She invite me to lunch. I pass, as I have to get to work.<P>I call her ten minutes later to complement her on being informed for the doctor and take a rain check for lunch, sooner rather than later. She says, I'm misunderstanding the invatation. <P>I said I don't know if I am or not, i would be nioce as you husband or future ex-husband to have lunch with you.<P>NO comment.<P><BR>She is driving me CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>

It's a wonder we aren't all crazy with these kinds of behaviors to put up with!<P>Well it's obvious that she has lots of feelings for you, even under all that fog.<BR>I'd keep flirting and complimenting.

I spoke wiht her father today, he thinks she is messing wiht me, playing mind games, weather or not she realizes it. He thinks I should not bite on this behavior and avoid those intimate conversations until she is ready to committ to MB. <P>So MAZEY, do you think I should continue flirting or just keep an even keel and plan A my butt off? Or should I play mind games back and I hate mind games. My real "W" would never play mind games. <P>Is this sick or what?<P>JK

IMO her behaviour is perfectly clear (but then again I am same fogbank I guess). She likes you well enuf, can be attracted when other issues are pushed away for awhile, but is scared to death of spending rest of her life with you, cause she is not "in"-love with you. I know it is hard, and unfair, I do the same stuff. It is not messing with anyone's head, or trying to be mean in any way, it is part of disconnecting from you. The issue is whether we (the ws) actually are rational or not, the MB stuff is about uncovering those truths. My advice (it is always the same), do the plan A/B as needed, and leave us (ws) be, don't try to figure us out, or fix us, just make it clear what we are giving up. That is your best hope, and the best for you too. We will either act rightly (for us, and by association you) or not, you cannot help us, or assume a particular outcome is the right one. BTW, absolutely do not play any "mind"games with her, she needs to know the real you (or the new real you if appropriate). As for intimacies, that is a tough call, and could get your heart hurt. I think personally if I were the BS (and knowing ws as I do), I would keep flirting etc, to a minimum, but be willing to be playful. Just be aware the mood can change in a heartbeat, and it is a LB if you complain, or act hurt. As for sex, well, no advice from me, but if it were me, I'd say no until the marital status is restored, is too much like playing with dynamite.<P>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 02, 2001).]

Sad<P>Thanks,<P>I really getting this plan A stuff and I need to focus more on me, any advice on how to control my emotions so I can stay on an even keel when she presses those buttons?<P>I would really like to know more about your situation as the WS? Did you come out of the fog? if so how long did it take? Was there a triggering event?<P>I could talk to you all night.<P>JK<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>IMO her behaviour is perfectly clear (but then again I am same fogbank I guess). She likes you well enuf, can be attracted when other issues are pushed away for awhile, but is scared to death of spending rest of her life with you, cause she is not "in"-love with you. I know it is hard, and unfair, I do the same stuff. It is not messing with anyone's head, or trying to be mean in any way, it is part of disconnecting from you. The issue is whether we (the ws) actually are rational or not, the MB stuff is about uncovering those truths. My advice (it is always the same), do the plan A/B as needed, and leave us (ws) be, don't try to figure us out, or fix us, just make it clear what we are giving up. That is your best hope, and the best for you too. We will either act rightly (for us, and by association you) or not, you cannot help us, or assume a particular outcome is the right one. BTW, absolutely do not play any "mind"games with her, she needs to know the real you (or the new real you if appropriate). As for intimacies, that is a tough call, and could get your heart hurt. I think personally if I were the BS (and knowing ws as I do), I would keep flirting etc, to a minimum, but be willing to be playful. Just be aware the mood can change in a heartbeat, and it is a LB if you complain, or act hurt. As for sex, well, no advice from me, but if it were me, I'd say no until the marital status is restored, is too much like playing with dynamite.<P>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 02, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 02, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I will be around off and on a few hours, and keep in mind I am male, nor do I think my situation is typical, but I accept the notion of fog, so am trying to proceed in my life responsibly by taking reasonable action (reexamining everything I feel and understand about marriage). As for emotional control, not much help here, I can't even control my own, and my W is a wreck as well, seems being emotional wrecks comes with the whole issue of divorce no matter what the precipitating factor is. But I do think studying everything you can about human marital pyschology is helpful. Also mental preperation, roleplaying etc can be helpful. Maybe developing some kind of automatic response when you feel the crazies coming might be usefull, and the time honored...... count to 10, walk away etc.<P>Some would say I am still in a fog. Personally I don't think I am in any fog at all. I know who I am, and what I want in life. I have acted a little crazy, and been surprised at myself (always thought I was pretty level-headed, analytical, not real emotionally driven....not true it seems), guess it comes with the emotional stress. I am 50, been with W 28 years (23 married, 4 kids 23-15), never looked at another woman, despite meeting hundreds of women daily, in their homes, as part of my job. I have not been happy (never felt connected) with my wife for entire marriage (which occured after a difficult 5 yr courtship). My W is a hard-working, honorable woman, who has her own psychological demons to deal with, as do I. The outcome was we dutifully raised our kids, treated each other more or less respectfully, but lived many years in the withdrawal stage of marriage, which harley describes as emotionally divorced. My W has control and anger issues, I will only fight to a point and then withdraw, typical scenario, repeated daily across america. I used my vows (I am a fundamentalist Christian) to justify staying married, but my resolve was weakening. Quite by happenstance, I met someone on-line in a discussion group, made friends over time, and fell in love with her, my (and her, she is in long-term marriage also) life became quite confusing at this point. My W found out (I never kept the ow a secret or anything, just the depth the friendship went too), and protested (much to my surprise) telling me she did love me, and that she wanted our marriage to recover. The ow has never done anything but encourage that recovery effort, as well as feel obligated to work on her barren marriage. But the feelings are real, so this is all very difficult, some days we I (and she) feel like terrible homewreckers, but yet we know (and the psychologists keep reminding us all) that feelings are real, and they cannot be dismissed. We are genuine friends, not needy folks using each other, but that friendship has placed into stark view, the barreness of our marriages.....and now we struggle with how to put the genie back into the bottle, or even whether one can or should put the genie back into the bottle. My style is to approach life headon, I now search to understand what human bonding is about, what marriage is about, who my W is, who the ow is, who I am, and what to do about all this. Unfortunately that search is very distressing to everyone around me. Although I am very analytical about all this, many ws aren't, but I see (and sense) the same search going on in many cases, as well as a lot of controlling marital issues with people, so I try to offer ws insight to whoever can use it. <P>IMO ws come in 2 varieties, the addictive self-serving users type (who I don't understand), and the those who feel trapped and lost in their marriages, and attempt escape by falling in love with another person. This is not a good way to go about it, but is an outcome of the whole marital paradigm and human psychology interaction, inevitable in other words. The BS invariably lament they just didn't know the depth of their spouse unhappiness, etc., and imply we are somehow defective, should have resolved marriage first blah blah blah. Fine in theory, but not how messy humans work, the affair itself is the event that gets the BS attention, sort of a chicken/egg thingy. IMO the affair is of little import, and assigning blame a waste of time, most of the ws realize our guilt, and accept it, we are just not particularly remorseful, no reason to be. What is important is to clear the marital air, introduce a brutal honesty, shine a bright light into every nook and cranny, let each change what they want, and then decide whether to remarry. I say remarry, cause the old marriage is dead, as it should be. Whether fair or not, the BS is competeing again, has to persuade their spouse to choose them again. That is why plan A is the tool of choice. How many people dated successfully by being needy, angry, demanding, placing guilt etc.? Ditto plan B, when you finally had to force the issue with a love interest. The harley's got this stuff down very well IMO. What they can't gaurantee is that mysterious spark that makes someone "special". What they can do is uncover it, and fan the flame, if it just got lost. If you do the A and B, and it does not work, then IMO it should not work, and you are better off finding another mate who wants to love you, and you them, it takes both, one cannot do it alone, hence my objection to sacrificial marriages.<BR>

JK and SNL too:<P>Welcome to the rollercoaster ride from Hell. At the deepest level she has feelings for you; but it is obscured by the fog, as long as she has contact with the OM.<P>The fog rolls in, the fog rolls out ... do the foggy pokey, and shake your BS all about ... <P>So, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A ... remember, the cycle is generally one step forward, two steps back for a while. Plan B only if you feel your love for her dissipating and in grave danger of disappearing; on the otherhand, do have a Plan B ready for your own protection and the possible future protection of your marriage.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 02, 2001).]

JK<P>I always have the same problem, about trying to figure out the WS instead of concentrating on myself.<P>I've been more aware of it this last couple of days, forcing my mind to try to concentrate on concrete plans I make for myself, with or without my WS.<P>Does this make sense?<P>sadnlonely is right about playing mind games-remember the rule of honesty?<BR>This doesn't mean you can't flirt a little here and there when you want to does it?

SNL,<P>Wow, well said and very insightful. I will re-read this several times and take it to heart, I believe my W is the second varitey you have described.<BR>I also agree with the remarry theroy and have said this toher on several occasions.<P><BR>JK<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>I will be around off and on a few hours, and keep in mind I am male, nor do I think my situation is typical, but I accept the notion of fog, so am trying to proceed in my life responsibly by taking reasonable action (reexamining everything I feel and understand about marriage). As for emotional control, not much help here, I can't even control my own, and my W is a wreck as well, seems being emotional wrecks comes with the whole issue of divorce no matter what the precipitating factor is. But I do think studying everything you can about human marital pyschology is helpful. Also mental preperation, roleplaying etc can be helpful. Maybe developing some kind of automatic response when you feel the crazies coming might be usefull, and the time honored...... count to 10, walk away etc.<P>Some would say I am still in a fog. Personally I don't think I am in any fog at all. I know who I am, and what I want in life. I have acted a little crazy, and been surprised at myself (always thought I was pretty level-headed, analytical, not real emotionally driven....not true it seems), guess it comes with the emotional stress. I am 50, been with W 28 years (23 married, 4 kids 23-15), never looked at another woman, despite meeting hundreds of women daily, in their homes, as part of my job. I have not been happy (never felt connected) with my wife for entire marriage (which occured after a difficult 5 yr courtship). My W is a hard-working, honorable woman, who has her own psychological demons to deal with, as do I. The outcome was we dutifully raised our kids, treated each other more or less respectfully, but lived many years in the withdrawal stage of marriage, which harley describes as emotionally divorced. My W has control and anger issues, I will only fight to a point and then withdraw, typical scenario, repeated daily across america. I used my vows (I am a fundamentalist Christian) to justify staying married, but my resolve was weakening. Quite by happenstance, I met someone on-line in a discussion group, made friends over time, and fell in love with her, my (and her, she is in long-term marriage also) life became quite confusing at this point. My W found out (I never kept the ow a secret or anything, just the depth the friendship went too), and protested (much to my surprise) telling me she did love me, and that she wanted our marriage to recover. The ow has never done anything but encourage that recovery effort, as well as feel obligated to work on her barren marriage. But the feelings are real, so this is all very difficult, some days we I (and she) feel like terrible homewreckers, but yet we know (and the psychologists keep reminding us all) that feelings are real, and they cannot be dismissed. We are genuine friends, not needy folks using each other, but that friendship has placed into stark view, the barreness of our marriages.....and now we struggle with how to put the genie back into the bottle, or even whether one can or should put the genie back into the bottle. My style is to approach life headon, I now search to understand what human bonding is about, what marriage is about, who my W is, who the ow is, who I am, and what to do about all this. Unfortunately that search is very distressing to everyone around me. Although I am very analytical about all this, many ws aren't, but I see (and sense) the same search going on in many cases, as well as a lot of controlling marital issues with people, so I try to offer ws insight to whoever can use it. <P>IMO ws come in 2 varieties, the addictive self-serving users type (who I don't understand), and the those who feel trapped and lost in their marriages, and attempt escape by falling in love with another person. This is not a good way to go about it, but is an outcome of the whole marital paradigm and human psychology interaction, inevitable in other words. The BS invariably lament they just didn't know the depth of their spouse unhappiness, etc., and imply we are somehow defective, should have resolved marriage first blah blah blah. Fine in theory, but not how messy humans work, the affair itself is the event that gets the BS attention, sort of a chicken/egg thingy. IMO the affair is of little import, and assigning blame a waste of time, most of the ws realize our guilt, and accept it, we are just not particularly remorseful, no reason to be. What is important is to clear the marital air, introduce a brutal honesty, shine a bright light into every nook and cranny, let each change what they want, and then decide whether to remarry. I say remarry, cause the old marriage is dead, as it should be. Whether fair or not, the BS is competeing again, has to persuade their spouse to choose them again. That is why plan A is the tool of choice. How many people dated successfully by being needy, angry, demanding, placing guilt etc.? Ditto plan B, when you finally had to force the issue with a love interest. The harley's got this stuff down very well IMO. What they can't gaurantee is that mysterious spark that makes someone "special". What they can do is uncover it, and fan the flame, if it just got lost. If you do the A and B, and it does not work, then IMO it should not work, and you are better off finding another mate who wants to love you, and you them, it takes both, one cannot do it alone, hence my objection to sacrificial marriages.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Seen the Light, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA.<P>MAZEY, Yes its makes all of the sense in the world, each day i realize I need to focus more on me and less on her, but I see a lot of her behavoir as crys for help. Also, I checked my journal of telephone conversations, in the past two weeks she has initated all but one phone call. She has acknolwdged she needs help dealing with this and has told me she need help[, but dosn't know where toturn. She is afraid to call Steve, as she thinks that is a step towards saving her marriage and does not want to save her marraige. <P>JK<P><BR>