Although I appreciate my state of mind is considered (by many) by definition to be temporarily incompetent, it still is all I have to work with. As I struggle to understand what is happening in my marital relationship, a number of things concern me. Some feedback would be helpful from those so inclined, I know my questions sometimes are annoying, but they are important to me. I am trying to see why we (my w and I) should remain married. On the issue of settling for what you have (and making best of it), vs the passionate type of marriage (don't mean just physical stuff), a question that is pretty much divided 50/50 when it comes up here, I want the passionate type, and I do not believe that kind of love arises out of dutiful meeting EN, but from fitting someone psychologically (so am in the camp that says love is more than behaviour modification, and it DOES matter who you are married too). For those whose relationships do not include raging alcoholism, serial affairs, overt physical/verbal abuse, or mental illness, I wonder a few things....<P>1. Do you want your ws back whether they ever want to be there or not? This is about the notion of vows, and forever etc. etc. Do you really want a spouse who is not passionate about you? One who will stay out of guilt (secular or religious), or emotional coercion, or being comfortable with being taken care of by you, etc. etc. cares about you, respects you, but does not love you as one should an intimate partner, but as a friend, a sibling, a roomate you have sex with once in a while.<P>2. If your spouse tells you (as they must if the honesty principle is being honored), that they just are not "in"-love with you, do you take it personally (like a rejection), and/or get angry? Or just go into denial and tell em they can't possibly feel that way so must be just temporarily insane, and then proceed to "fix" them.<P>3. According to the Harley'g book on givers and takers, it is not possible for human beings to make vows pledging life long committment, do you believe this?<P>I am having trouble with these issues, I do not wish to hurt my W, but I do not want us to continue a troubled marriage, or to "recover" to a comfortable (polite), but passionless marriage. These feelings make her very unhappy, and angry, and confused. I wobble between being very guilty (how can I do this to her after 23 years), and a strong desire not to live the rest of my life without passion. Do I have a right to make that choice, or am I some kind of emotional property, obligated to take care of her needs?<P>

SNL,<P>That would be a convenient excuse. I have more healthy pride and respect for myself than that. Although looking from the outside, you may not think so. But you have to live in my shoes (or that of a BS) to understand. <P>If you are willing, I wil try to help you understand.....<BR>I believe I gave you a similar illustration before but here goes. The work and effort the BS puts into recovery may vary. Bottom line is that most of us put more effort than we planned or realized. Since the A is a life altering event, the struggle to give the marriage every chance it can is like looking for a remedy for a serious illness. You will spare no expense and do all within your means to save the life of yourself or a loved one. Saving a marriage is very similar. <P>For the OP, it was easier to throw away the marriage, they had already been doing it in pieces already. For the one not doing that, it is a major blow. We, the BS did not have the forewarning (ability to condition the mind and heart) to accept the breakup of the marriage. We did not plan or connive (sp?) this break up. So the BS tries and tries, sometimes not realizing they are trying to save the very one that is trying to break them. Sound stupid? It is. <P>But look at it this way. The BS is in the dark as to what is really in the mind of the WS and OP. They are not in the middle of those plans and talks. No, the BS is in the dark, carrying on the daily routines and responsibilities. Making plans for the future not knowing how bleak and dark their future is about to become. <P>And then one day, BAM!!!! The WS lands the bomb on the BS and family: "I am moving out, I don't want to be married anymore, I am not in love with you, I need some time alone, I have met my perfect partner, I have met someone better suited than you, I need to let you be with someone better than me, I, I, I...." Notice all the "I's". Now this escape has been carefully planned in some cased rehearsed between the OP and WS. The script and setting have been finalized. Oh, there should be no problem ending this marriage. <P>In shock, the BS wavers, usually gets unsteady on their feet (crying, self analysis, bewildered, etc). Resulting in anxiety attacks, sleepless nights, anguish, loss of appetite, inability to function, nausea and things on the other end, etc. Then it turns to anger, frustration, hurt, pain followed by more and more suffering. All the while wondering, what did I (BS) do to deserve this? Some try to apologize, some accuse, some are too dizzy to know what is going on, others go into denial and a few walk away (give up without a fight). <P>Ah.... during all this some find help, counselors, supporters -friends, family, co-workers, MB.com.... They learn how to cope and then the WS and OP get angry. How dare any one ruin their well scripted plans. How dare anyone destroy their scene of escape. How dare..... Oh yes, the WS/OP are angry when help is given to the BS. How dare anyone try to save the marriage that I the WS is trying so hard to destroy. <P>Hopefully, some of those dumb Ws's come to their senses and see that the OP, is just as selfish in their quest as the WS and eventually will turn on each other, it is just a matter of time. Others have to learn life's lesson the hard way. Some return thanks to the undaunting efforts of the BS, others fight and win their independance to drugery. Life with an unfaithful OP. What a catch. 2 half persons who have demeaned themselves may make 1 whole person but what a combination. PMS (premenstrual symdrome) and OPs (other person stealer). <P>For me I chose not to have a 1/2 a man. I have told H that. He knows that we are worth more than that. However the OW is willing to settle for that because she is that and even less. <P>So, does the BS seek to keep their spouse no matter what? <BR>For me? NO! <P>Aren't you happy I'm not your W? Maybe you'll appreciate yours a bit more now. <P>Hope so.<P>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited July 02, 2001).]

About passion in marriage, does anyone expect to have same kind of passion and love for life with one person? Even (or yet) with an OW or OM? This is illusion. Can anyone visualise that relationship with OW or OM in say 10 years, really ? Love and passion are changing, growing, maturing things and they have many forms.<BR>Sometimes it looks like it disappeared but have another look.<BR>WS should think more about being loved. What’s that what OW, OM loves about you? Do they have whole picture about who you really are? Do they know you better then your partner with whom you were so intimate for so many years? Who you really are?...So many questions...<BR>A’s are not about sex and passion as this site correctly marked, it's about communication and I don't see what can be wrong about trying to get that communication back that we once had with our spouses? I never in my life had better sex than with my husband but still it didn't stop me to have an A...<P><BR>

Thx orchid, it is hard to step out of our own boxes, and of course I accept that we each (ws and bs) are impacted differently. For the record, ws come in lots of varieties too. In my case, neither I or the ow have planned anything, we (on our own, I am the one who found MB for both my W and the OW) recognized the inevitability of having to cease seeing each other, and resolving our own marriages one way or another, and do so with a good faith effort, before proceeding any further. I am a problem solver by profession, with an overdeveloped sense of fairplay, the problem I have to resolve is how I can love one woman and be married to another. I take this very seriously, as does ow, and neither of us is motivated to do anything but be as fair as possible to our spouses, possibly to the point of even denying ourselves our freindship and just remaining dutifully married, hence my questions (which you did not really answer, maybe you could take another look?). <P>I am aware of the shock to the BS, and have resolved not to do anything until she has a chance to get up to speed. I could leave anytime, but have not, mostly cause of that. Further I am subjecting myself (albeit shakily, it is emotionally hard to make myself vulnerable to this) to the MB principles, and harley counselling. Neither I or ow are angry at all, we are simply distraught like everyone else in a marital trainwreck. But I am happy about one thing, the marriage we had was no good, withdrawal (emotional divorce) for years, it is now gone, I don't miss it, and I will not go back. <P>It interests me you paint the ws and op in such unflattering terms. They are just people, same as you, it is not the A that makes them unworthy, it is what they do with it. If they act honorably (with existing spouse) and subsequently marry, I see no reason to disparage them. Life hands us many difficulties, it is how we learn and grow from them that makes the difference. I don't have much respect for ws who justify their actions by unfairly demonizing their spouse, or who refuse a good faith effort at reconcilliation, but not all ws act that way. As upsetting as it feels, it is still a truth, humans choose their spouse everyday (it is a consequence of freewill), and whether one is dating, engaged, or married, the risk you take in a relationship is that one day your partner may leave (for many reasons, good and bad). This is neither good or bad, it just is.<P>Do you think marriage should be permanent, just cause it exists, or is the mental state (happiness) relevant to it's permanence?

To S&L:<P>Being on opposite ends of this continuum I know it is hard for you to understand how the BS feels about the WS and their marriage, but I feel you are trying to come to terms with where you are in your relationship so I will try to answer your questions:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>1. Do you want your ws back whether they ever want to be there or not? This is about the notion of vows, and forever etc. etc. Do you really want a spouse who is not passionate about you? One who will stay out of guilt (secular or religious), or emotional coercion, or being comfortable with being taken care of by you, etc. etc. cares about you, respects you, but does not love you as one should an intimate partner, but as a friend, a sibling, a roomate you have sex with once in a while.</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have a romantic's view of what marriage has to be...amazing since you have been married for some time...did you suddenly realize this recently? My WS and I built a life together, raised two children, sacrificed parts of each of our lives for each other...in a way we are now part of a whole...but that life together wears away some of the rough edges and takes away some of the passion that you so crave. Because part of passion is the unknown...the unpredictable...the unexpected....and with time it always lessens...but never dies completely. And we come together at times and draw apart at other times...and the drawing apart brings back that passion...because it brings back an element of mystery to the marriage.<P>To answer your question, no I don't want my WS back under any of your conditions....but at the same time that's not possible...if he is with me it will be because that's where he knows he wants to be. So you can say that I have faith in what we had and I believe it will survive. <P>During his foggy days if you asked my WS about his "soul mate" he would have said "she understands me", "we are passionate about one another"....all the things you feel like are vital positives in a relationship. But he realizes now how false those ideas were...his relationship with OW was basically very shallow...but his impression of it at the time was that it was profound....nothing has changed about them but his prospection of her. And nothing has changed about your relationship with your wife but your prospection...brought about by your relationship with OW.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>2. If your spouse tells you (as they must if the honesty principle is being honored), that they just are not "in"-love with you, do you take it personally (like a rejection), and/or get angry? Or just go into denial and tell em they can't possibly feel that way so must be just temporarily insane, and then proceed to "fix" them.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like most BS I've heard this statement...but knew at the time that this thought was not original to him...I knew this was manipulation by OW...because it is basically just semantics..."in love" or "love" the only difference is in the newness of the feeling...one usually progresses to the other over time...if the relationship is sustainable (something A usually aren't...because of their temporary status...untried and untested...they really have yet to be). <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>3. According to the Harley'g book on givers and takers, it is not possible for human beings to make vows pledging life long committment, do you believe this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>This one is easy...no, I don't...because I have no problems seeing myself committed to this person for as long as I live...so it is possible....at least for me.<P><BR>I hope this answers your questions, but I doubt it because I still feel you are just trying to justify the end of your marriage to yourself...and that's understandable...passion has you in its grip...but just remember...passion ebbs and there had better be more then passion or you'll have nothing at all to hold you together during the hard times.<BR>Sometimes a level head has to overrule an errant heart.<P>Faye <BR> <P><BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 03, 2001).]

Aah, my friend:<P><B> I am trying to see why we (my w and I) should remain married. </B><P><I> Through wisdom a house is built, and by understanding it is established; by knowledge the rooms are filled with all precious and pleasant riches.</I> Proverbs 24:3,4<P><B> On the issue of settling for what you have (and making best of it), vs the passionate type of marriage (don't mean just physical stuff) </B><P><I> Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. </I> Philippians 2:4<P><BR><B> 1. Do you want your ws back whether they ever want to be there or not? This is about the notion of vows, and forever etc. etc. Do you really want a spouse who is not passionate about you? One who will stay out of guilt (secular or religious), or emotional coercion, or being comfortable with being taken care of by you, etc. etc. cares about you, respects you, but does not love you as one should an intimate partner, but as a friend, a sibling, a roomate you have sex with once in a while. </B><P><I> No.in my case, I remember passion...and I still 'turn him on'... but, in your situation, haven't you already 'decided' that you cannot love your wife passionately? If you already know the destination, a map (the MB principals) is not necessary. Perhaps, you could open your mind up to the possiblity of passion...."A wise man will hear and increase learning, and a man of understanding will attain wise counsel." Proverbs 1:5 </I><P><B>2. If your spouse tells you (as they must if the honesty principle is being honored), that they just are not "in"-love with you, do you take it personally (like a rejection), and/or get angry? Or just go into denial and tell em they can't possibly feel that way so must be just temporarily insane, and then proceed to "fix" them. </B><P><I> How about now, a faith in God, and what he wants for my life, my H's life and our marriage? How about truly praying and giving it up to God...again, what is your struggle? Staying with wife? Moving out? Which causes the most pain? <BR>"I sought the Lord, and He heard me, and delivered me from all my fears." Psalm 34:4 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7 </I><P><BR><B> 3. According to the Harley'g book on givers and takers, it is not possible for human beings to make vows pledging life long committment, do you believe this? </B><P><I> I think that people enter into the decision not really understanding what the vows mean. I think we, as a society, have made it far to easy to walk away...I believe forever is hard, but not impossible. "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:20 </I><P><BR><B>I am having trouble with these issues, I do not wish to hurt my W, but I do not want us to continue a troubled marriage, or to "recover" to a comfortable (polite), but passionless marriage. </B><P><I> He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered. </I> Proverbs 28:26<P><B>These feelings make her very unhappy, and angry, and confused. I wobble between being very guilty (how can I do this to her after 23 years), and a strong desire not to live the rest of my life without passion. Do I have a right to make that choice, or am I some kind of emotional property, obligated to take care of her needs? </B><P><I> So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies, he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. </I> Ephesians 5: 28,29<P><I> They will call on me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently, but they will not find me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord, they would have none of my counsel and despised my every rebuke. </I> Proverbs 1:28-30<P><I> Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. </I> Matthew 7:21<P><I> If anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, his like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. </I> James 1:23-25<P>1. Quit overanalyzing.<BR>2. Open yourself up to new possibilites.<BR>3. Listen to God.<BR>4. <B> really</B> do the work.<BR>5. Take it out of your hands and put it into His Hands.<P>Cali<P><p>[This message has been edited by StrongerInCali (edited July 03, 2001).]

SnL,<P>You are right, I did miss your question and thought about it while I was out visiting some friends. I would like the opportunity to address it now. <P>You stated that you have a 'friendship' with your OW and that you understand each other. Well, I have friendships with both men and women. We share war stories at work, about families, relationships, etc. However, the difference is that I would not consider dissolving my marriage over their relationship. I have not put their friendship ahead of my marriage. Yes, I get along with most of them better than my H. Surprised? Shouldn't be. My H was getting along better with OW than me. <P>The point is that your reason for being with OW instead with your W does not hold ground. The piece of frustration I see is that both you and OW want to focus on how bad your marriages are. Why should they get better if you focus more on the bad? Are there no redeeming qualities in your Marriage? If yes, then hurry up and end it. Hm..... Your w will certainly understand since it is so obvious to you. Or is it? <P>Oh, before I forget, yes you did say that the OW wants you to work on recovery. Another hm... so did the one that has been making our lives miserable. Claims to have sent H back 6 times. She neglected to count each of the times she reeled him back. Sometimes within minutes or hours of when she sent him packing. Made him feel like a yoyo and act like an idiot. <P>You and OW crossed the line when your friendship turned intimate. Whether or not you had a PA, when your friendship became an EA, you crossed the line and became disloyal to your W. Doesn't matter how many times you both try to go back to your respective families. Each time you get back together, the act is undone. All good efforts wasted. Illicit passion replaces the void you created in each of your families. Given the opportunity, you may have chosen to widen the gap. Did what you could to make it easier to be mad at your spouses. Then meet about it and share a laugh at their BS expense?<P>Hope this answered your question. <P>L.

<BR><B>In my case, neither I or the ow have planned anything,</B> <P><I> for the record, I don't believe any WS or OP <B> planned </B> to have an affair...I believe that is part of the script. </I><P><BR><B> we (on our own, I am the one who found MB for both my W and the OW) recognized the inevitability of having to cease seeing each other, and resolving our own marriages one way or another, and do so with a good faith effort, before proceeding any further. </B><P><I> good faith effort means what? I 'tried' MB principals. I 'tried' counseling with the Harley's. Now my conscience is clear and I can have passion in my life? (notice all the 'I's). There is no TRY...there is only DO. If you think you can't, you're right. </I><P><B>I am a problem solver by profession, with an overdeveloped sense of fairplay, the problem I have to resolve is how I can love one woman and be married to another. </B> <P><I> overdeveloped sense of fairplay....How is it fair for you to decide that you will never have passion with your wife? yeah, I remember there were some extenuating circumstances regarding why you got married in the first place. You made the decision to marry in the first place...the issue I have with you and my spouse is why do you get to say "Oops, I made a mistake..." and no, I do not want my H to stay out of pity, guilt or obligation, but just where do you get off with such an easy out....that whole "It was a mistake to marry you in the first place...I didn't really mean it...I've found something better, sorry" just reeks. </I><P><B>I take this very seriously, as does ow, and neither of us is motivated to do anything but be as fair as possible to our spouses, possibly to the point of even denying ourselves our freindship and just remaining dutifully married, hence my questions </B><P><I> Again, maybe you should look past duty and denial to God. You are keeping this situation in your heart and hands. You have a closed mind...let possibilities and God in. </I><P><B>I am aware of the shock to the BS, and have resolved not to do anything until she has a chance to get up to speed. I could leave anytime, but have not, mostly cause of that. </B> <P><I> I would suggest that you are not doing your wife any favors... how long have you been 'dutifully staying?' Maybe you should plan B yourself...get some perspective on what 'not being married' really means. Find out what God wants in your life. </I><P><B>Further I am subjecting myself (albeit shakily, it is emotionally hard to make myself vulnerable to this) to the MB principles, and harley counselling. Neither I or ow are angry at all, we are simply distraught like everyone else in a marital trainwreck. </B><P><I> I have a book recommendation for you...<B> Secrets of the Vine </B> by Bruce Wilkinson. Check it out SnL. Find out where your pain is coming from...are you being disciplined or pruned...</I><P><B>But I am happy about one thing, the marriage we had was no good, withdrawal (emotional divorce) for years, it is now gone, I don't miss it, and I will not go back. </B><P><I> And there it is...why the MB principals, Harley's counseling will not work. How about going forward? Moving On? Opening up your mind to new possibilities? </I><BR> <B>I don't have much respect for ws who justify their actions by unfairly demonizing their spouse, or who refuse a good faith effort at reconcilliation, but not all ws act that way. </B> <P><I> There it is again...good faith...salve of the conscience. "I tried, therefore I am absolved." </I><P> <B>As upsetting as it feels, it is still a truth, humans choose their spouse everyday (it is a consequence of freewill), and whether one is dating, engaged, or married, the risk you take in a relationship is that one day your partner may leave (for many reasons, good and bad). This is neither good or bad, it just is. </B><P><I> and you can exercise freewill for good or for evil...but if you walk with God, you give over your freewill for God's will be done...</I><P><B>Do you think marriage should be permanent, just cause it exists, or is the mental state (happiness) relevant to it's permanence? </B><P>No, I think it should remain permanent because you took vows before God...If you can't do the time...don't do the crime.<P>Well, you know what I mean .<P>Happy trails SnL,<P>Cali<P>

SNL,<P>I think I might know how you are feeling at the moment. I don’t think there is a right or wrong to it, whether you prefer to settle with what you have and make the best of it or seek the passionate type of relationship you described. I am sure most BS who wants to save their marriages, believes that the WS can have both. Settle with what they have, work on it until it becomes a passionate. With a little bit of work, everyone will be happy in the end. For some I think it is v possible but it doesn’t apply to all. Although the dilemma is the same, every situation is unique, the whys, hows, background, history are different. <P>I am recovering to a passionless and loveless but cordial marriage. Yeah I know it makes you feel sad and lonely. This is how it was for 3 years before we separated. it’s a long time to feel that way. Maybe if I came here earlier on, my marriage might have a chance. We did go for counselling then though. After awhile the love I had for W died. I am sure even for BS, there must be a point when the love you have for WS will start to wither and die. Of course its replace by other valid needs like children, certain lifestyle or just fear & desperation. You might think it is love but it really isn’t.<P>Sure I think at times too don’t my life deserve something better than this? For BS – what are the things that WS says about your ability to meet their needs. Do your WS feel that you are unable to meet their needs? If so, how do you respond to that? I appreciate some feedback. I have read some people saying they don’t welcome WSs or Ows in this board. I hope those people wont be offended by what I written so far and will write in the future. Once again if they are, they are only in denial then. Thanks. <BR>

Many of your questions are hard to answer because the state of mind of a WS in the fog is often in a constant state of flux. One day they want one thing, the next day something else.<P><<1. Do you want your ws back whether they ever want to be there or not?>>><P>When my H decided he didnt' want to be here he moved out. He soon realized he had made a mistake. When he came back for good he was very thankful to be here. <P><<This is about the notion of vows, and forever etc. etc. Do you really want a spouse who is not passionate about you?>>><P>That passion can be regained.<P><<< One who will stay out of guilt (secular or religious), or emotional coercion, or being comfortable with being taken care of by you, etc. etc. cares about you, respects you, but does not love you as one should an intimate partner, but as a friend, a sibling, a roomate you have sex with once in a while.>>><P>No, I wouldn't stay in a relationship like that. That would be hell for me. But some BS have to suffer through that part while they are rebuilding. My best friend was once a WS herself and I watched her go through it all. She treated her H like garbage, then decided to rebuild the marriage because she knew it was the right thing to do, even though she didnt' "want to" at the time. Many years later they are one of the most passionate and loving couples I know. <P><<2. If your spouse tells you (as they must if the honesty principle is being honored), that they just are not "in"-love with you, do you take it personally (like a rejection), and/or get angry? Or just go into denial and tell em they can't possibly feel that way so must be just temporarily insane, and then proceed to "fix" them.>><P>I was in shock when my H said he "didn't thin he loved me anymore". But once again, that "fog flux" comes into play. He thought he loved the OW. Then 6 weeks later he didn't think he loved her and started realizing he still loved me.<P><< I am having trouble with these issues, I do not wish to hurt my W, but I do not want us to continue a troubled marriage, or to "recover" to a comfortable (polite), but passionless marriage.>><P>But it doesn't have to be that way! If you both put forth the effort it can be wonderful. I mentioned my friend before. I remember her going on and on about how she could never lover her H again, never really loved him in the first place (TOTAL revisionist history on her part), the marriage could never be saved etc. Just recently she told me that she still thanks God every day for giving her such a wonderful, forgiving man. Her greatest fear in her life is the thought of ever losing her H.<P> <<<I wobble between being very guilty (how can I do this to her after 23 years), and a strong desire not to live the rest of my life without passion. Do I have a right to make that choice, or am I some kind of emotional property, obligated to take care of her needs?>>><P>IMO you are obligated to really give it a chance and keep an open mind for awhile. Not all marriages can be saved, but in many cases things can turn out better than you ever imagined.<P><<It interests me you paint the ws and op in such unflattering terms. They are just people, same as you,>>><P>I have not stepped outside the boundaries of my marriage, even though while we were separated I could have. Not even horrible pain and desperate loneliness caused me to do that. So I can't agree with the "just like you" part. Unfortunately I have to accept that my H was capable of committing such a heinous act. But then again, he has to accept that too and it's a big cross for him to bear.<P><<it is not the A that makes them unworthy, it is what they do with it. If they act honorably (with existing spouse) and subsequently marry, I see no reason to disparage them.>>><P>Ugh, ugh. It's foggy in here! Acting "honorably" with your current spouse means giving your all in effort to save the marriage and then, if it doesn't work, getting a divorce. Then AFTER the divorce have any relationsip you want. The word "honor" has no place when affairs are being discussed. There is no honor. I have the utmost respect for all marriage vows except when they are said between a MP and OP. It's ludicrous. Adulterers pledging to be faithful, honor and cherish each other when their whole relationship is based on lies & deception. <P><p>[This message has been edited by fairydust (edited July 03, 2001).]

Do I want H to stay whether he wants to or not. Let's be real here, no one wants to be heartbroken, so if I have a choice of either it being ME heartbroken or someone else, then ofcourse I am going to pick the other person to be heartbroken! Who wants pain, NOT ME! But if my spouse really wants out, then for me, my pride and my vision of real love is too great, then i would definitely want them to leave and STAY AWAY, no talks, no we can be friends BS. I am not getting divorced to become someone's friend, hell I have friends now that someday's I really don't feel like being bothered with, do u think I am going to want to deal with someone who has broken my heart...no way! But Anyhoo, Do i get angry if the person I am in love with tell me that they are not in love with me anymore....yes. It is a slap in the face ofcourse, and it is rejection, who wants to be rejected, who wants their love to be rejected...no one. You are trivializing some very basic questions, knowing that you would feel the same way if the person you loved told you to let go, move on because I don't feel the same, heartbreak comes in cycles, hurt, anger, hate, etc. It's called being HUMAN, your wife isn't feeling anything that any person that is hurt by the person they love wouldn't feel.

Thx folks. This is hard stuff (for me), I am much more use to problems that have more concrete solutions, and clear-cut paths to those solutions. It is sort of like telling your kids to play "nice"....what does that mean anyways? How do you do that? What if you don't feel like being nice (and stuff your feelings....till you explode)? etc. etc.<P>Marital issues seem to fall into several patterns, one being you married this person for better or worse, so just DO it, whether it feels right or not. Yet every single thing else in life we do (or choose) we can unchoose, and are even encouraged to unchoose if it does not work for us (whatever that means, but feelings seem to count...right?). Even making a child, one can give it up for adoption without social complaint. Why does this not apply to marriage?<P>Then there is the concept of fog, that you really want/should live your entire life in intimacy with this person and you just don't know it. In other words do not trust your feelings at all......ok, then IMO we should never trust our feelings (a principle has to apply all the time otherwise it is not a principle, and therefore no fog). If feelings do not count, why did we marry in the first place, is marriage really just a calulation then, a sort of personal services contract? If feelings do count, but now we are in a fog, then how do we know we weren't in a fog when we married? and therefore end the marriage, just as one says the loving feelings toward op must be ended?....here we are back to marriage just being a contract again. The notion that one always marries the best possible choice (psychologically) for both.....which is what is implied by saying no one else (op) would work out better, is ludicrous. <P>We often marry in youth, people regularly misrepresent themselves (called putting best foot forward), have unresolved psychological baggage they bring, have our own ignorance about who we are, deliberately omit imformation about ourselves (particularly if we think it will cost us the relationship), and so forth and so on. If people applied the MB principles for a couple years while dating someone, I suspect many people would not be married to who they are today. What does this mean? That, at least on a psychological basis, many people are not really married at all (in the intimate sense), they are simply co-existing in a living together arrangement......and in fact that is precisely what the harley's, and the rest of psychological community tells us, that only 20% or less of marriages, are actually sound nurturing places.<P>If that is true, and it sure looks like it to me, then a lot of fixing is in order....right? And isn't part of the fixing starting over? Musn't we end the old dysfunctional relationship? In fact that is what MB says, and they are right. That is why humans have affairs, someone is starting over, it is emotional survival at it's most fundamental level, has nothing to do with fog (fog comes later). Assuming ending the current marriage is in order, as it must be for the well-being of the 2 people, then what? Well, MB suggests in most cases, choosing (remarrying) your current partner is probably your best bet, or at least where you should start first.......not because of duty, not cause of religion, not cause of vows, but because of your "investment" allready......history, family, community, children, some ability to meet EN (else why ever married at all)......and that makes sense..<P>BUT, it does imply, and correctly so, you are making a choice, and that means you may choose NOT to continue on in marriage with this person. This is no different (emotionally/psychologically) then ending a dating relationship, or an engagement, it is only a matter of degree. MB says (by way of percentages) that those who stay in current marriage, and apply principles will find passion, and they imply if you do not, then the marriage in fact should end. All this leads me to conclude feelings do count, passion is the yardstick by which we measure the emotional/psychological depth of the intimate relationship we label marriage, but it is not caused by marriage, and can exist anywhere 2 human beings feel this way (again not using passion in the sexual sense, but the deep psychological/emotional sense of being connected to another human being, something that cannot be "chosen", but when it exists you know it). This means (to me) that marriage itself is not important, and arguments that focus on "saving" the marriage at all costs are fundamentally flawed, dooming many to empty lives of sacrifice or coercion based (dependent) marriages. What is important is the people involved, and the focus should be on them and whether they have passion, and if not, can they find it, or should they separate. This I think is what scares the heck out of BS, and causes such intense reactions of rejection, and attmepts to imply the ws is temporarily insane. When the focus shifts from the "contract" (marriage vows), to a reassesment of whether the ws still chooses you, the bs is forced back into a dating relationship against their will. Of course so is the ws (bs may not choose them either), but psychologically they are a few steps ahead in having come to grips with the possible dissolution of the marriage. And like any relationship, it is always emotionally easier to be the leaver than the leavee. Hence the anger towards the ws, and the arguments about fog and how can you do this, etc. etc. etc. The harley's have this right, plan A is about dating, it does no good to make this a contract issue, the ws has already decided, and the contract is broken. Fair? No, not really, there are better ways to do this, cause falling in love with op comes at a high price for everyone. But it is just another manifestation of how our spieces has "evolved" in forming pair bonds, and is neither good or bad, just something we have to understand, and form a response too. <P>For those of you still with me here in this lengthy rumination, the point is feelings do count. If feelings get us married, then clearly feelings may lead to divorce too. This is what drives me nuts, the idea our (ws) feelings are just fog, but bs feelings are the right ones and ok. I think feelings do tell us things that are very important, and must be listened too. The reason for all this analysis is that feelings are not always very specific, and we need our rational (fog free) brains to correctly understand and act on them. This analysis makes it clear, a marriage is not in itself a reason to not question it, would be circular logic, and nonsensical. I can only conclude that if it is ok to be married, it is also ok to be divorced, and that the criteria is "passion". And that one should be prudent and responsible in such decisions, but not shy away from them, happiness is not a 4 letter word, and it is the label we use to assess many things, including the success of marriage. The responsibility lies in understanding ourselves (being sure not in a fog, and aware of yourself a la dr. phil et al), treating spouse with respect and a standard of fairplay (marriage does have some elements of a contract to it methinks, in that one should be honest, and patient if choosing to consider leaveing), and proceeding cautiously while subjecting oneself to peer review.<P>This was sort of the reason for my questions, I cannot see any valid argument for saying a marriage should just exist cause it does. Nor can I see any usefullness in categorizing ws feelings as somehow wrong and just needing to be fixed (although that may be true, more often the feelings are right and marriage is wrong, but if MB principles are applied, fog will be lifted, then if marriage dissolves guess that is legitimate).<P>I will answer more specifically to some of the comments made in another post, and I realize this analysis does not answer the religious argument, which I will also address by itself, it is the most difficult one to reconcille.<P><BR>

sad_n_lonely<P>OK, so your main thread here is why should you and your wife remain married.<P>I can understand your desire that your marriage be one of passionate love. I agree with you, a good marriage is passionate. Though the passion may not be felt 24/7, I want the passion to be the underlying thread of my relationship with my husband. So far that has been the case.<P>RE: “I do not believe that kind of love arises out of dutiful meeting EN, but from fitting someone psychologically (so am in the camp that says love is more than behavior modification, and it DOES matter who you are married too).”<P>Did you feel passion for your wife when you married her? If not why did you marry her? The problem with your supposition here is that if you do not believe the meeting ENs can lead to a passionate relationship, the indeed it will not happen in your case. The need to prove your point will keep you from realizing the full affect. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. <P>I do believe it matters who the person of your affections is. There are plenty of men that I could never marry. But I did not marry one of them. I married a man who basically fit my “picture” of the right man – good looking (in my eyes), kind and loving, a good father, intelligent, has a good sense of humor, etc. While I do believe that it does matter whom you are married to, I assume that your wife is a person who is some reasonable fit for you or you would not have married her in the first place.<P>You will never know if you wife is your true “soul mate” unless you allow her into your heart (read love bank).<P>So to answer your questions:<P>I only want my spouse if he is passionately and romantically in love with me and I with him. I also want him to be my best friend. However, I do accept that the feelings will ebb and flow over our years together. I also believe that almost every one here is seeking this in their marriage.<P>If STL were to tell me that he was no longer “in-love” with me it would hurt very badly initially. But I would ask him to please give us some reasonable period of time to regain what he had. Then if we both put 100% into recovery, and it did not happen, then a divorce might be the right direction. The point is that I would treat him with love and respect and expect him to do so in return.<P>Remember that the “fog” or as you call it “temporary insanity” is because the WS is lying, cheating, and behaving in a manner inconsistent with the person we thought we knew. It is not because they are having an emotional struggle. I is because they are behaving in a manner we believed they were incapable of. And we are not trying to “fix” them. We are trying to find sanity in an insane time. We are working on ourselves. Usually the WS is sitting on the fence for so long, and in such a hurtful manner that the BS has to do something to force the issue. <P>It is the BS trying to either work on the marriage or being able to move on with their lives that you wronging see as “trying to fix” the WS. No, despite our language and the silly “fog” stuff we talk about we are trying to fix our lives and our selves. Believe it or not, it is not all about the WS. We, the BS are persons deserving of being treated kindly, honestly and with respect. We usually get none of this.<P>RE: “According to the Harley's book on givers and takers, it is not possible for human beings to make vows pledging life long commitment, do you believe this?”<P>In a sense yes, because we do not know who we will be years up the line. According to Harley love in a marriage is conditional. We only love our spouse while there is a positive balance in our love bank. I believe that to be true. I believe that what I promised is that I will do everything in my power to make our marriage and my love last a lifetime. I only hope I have the strength and fortitude to do this. I also hope that STL can too. I feel that I can because in the 20 yeas I was with my XH (living together and then married) despite all the terrible times, I know that I could have loved him again if he were willing to work on things with me. The capability is there. It only needs to be nurtured.<BR>RE: I am having trouble with these issues, I do not wish to hurt my W, but I do not want us to continue a troubled marriage, or to "recover" to a comfortable (polite), but passionless marriage.”<P>Until you make a cognitive CHOICE to recover your love for your wife and the both of you work on things together you will never know if it is possible. From what I’ve seen of your posts, you are out to prove that you are right; that you cannot feel passion for your wife. As long as you take that stance you will not be able to.<BR>Of course your wife is unhappy and angry and confused. And no, if you are stuck in this place emotionally you should not continue. Your wife deserves more. <BR>As long as you feel the way you do and refuse to put an honest effort into meeting your wife’s needs and letting her meet yours your marriage will continue as it is. Your wife deserves more then this. Perhaps you should let her go.<P>I’m curious, have you shared the MB material with your wife? If not please do so that she can grow emotionally and move on with her life.<P>One thing I keep asking myself when I read your posts it "why is this man holding on to his professed lack of love for his wife so strongly? Why is he brought into it so strongly that he cannot see the light of day? “ <P>The only thing that comes to mind is that people will hold on to pain as long as they are getting a benefit from it. It becomes a tool. Perhaps a tool to punish your wife for all the things you are angry with her for. After all, if you tell her the things you are angry about she might not accept them as valid. But how can she argue if you have just simply "fallen out of love with her." You are not the victim being forced to stay in a loveless marriage. Now you are justified in your cold position towards your wife. What power you get from this. You can control her by keeping her on emotionally unstable ground. Giving her just enough encouragement to keep her hoping but withholding just enough to keep her in pain and unable to act. You are in a position of power and it seems very unwilling to give it up.<P>This is the “fog” my friend, not that you may or may not love her anymore. The game is the fog.<P>Just MHO<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I realize this analysis does not answer the religious argument, which I will also address by itself, it is the most difficult one to reconcille.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not only difficult, but if you are a Christian and can "read" the New Testament, it's impossible to reconcile. There is *no excuse* for divorce. None---not even adultery (the "escape clause" isn't really an escape clause, if you put this in context of Jesus's message and who {and when} he was preaching too).<P>So, if you are a Christian, you should avoid this very major sin of initiating a divorce. But you should not accept a passionate, lonely marriage either. You need to work on your marriage. You and your wife have a duty, in God's eyes, to recover and create passion between the two of you.<P>I would strongly urge you to get into counseling with the Harley's---whether you fully buy-in to the concepts or not. You don't have to "believe" what they're preaching; you just need to start by creating a plan to restore romantic love, and then execute the plan faithfully (it IS a lot easier if you do believe it's going to work). If both you and your wife will participate, you will likely find your marriage has the passion you've missed---and you'll see significant results within 6-12 months.<P>And Harley never says that it's impossible for human beings to make vows pledging life-long committment. You're misquoting him out of context.<BR>

Buffy....You have a romantic's view of what marriage has to be...amazing since you have been married for some time...did you suddenly realize this recently? <P>snl......no, I have always been this way, and yes I have a romantics temperament, I just buried it as time went on and it did not exist in my marriage. I use to think everyone felt this way, but I have learned that is not true. There is a range of psychological need in this sense, and it is very hard when 2 people are very different in this regard. I thought all marriages should be passionate to be successful, I now understand that simply being safe and comfortable is enuf for many (and given how hard it is to find and live passionately, that makes a pragmatic sense). In one sense marriage is a calculation, settle for the best you can find at hand, or keep looking, and maybe always be alone, we don't conciously think this, but I do now know it is part of our choosing. I think this in part is what makes bs so despairing, they were good enuf at one time, now being told they are not (of course much more complicated than that, and most of time bs played a negative role as well).<P>Buffy...My WS and I built a life together, raised two children, sacrificed parts of each of our lives for each other...in a way we are now part of a whole...but that life together wears away some of the rough edges and takes away some of the passion that you so crave. Because part of passion is the unknown...the unpredictable...the unexpected....and with time it always lessens...but never dies completely. And we come together at times and draw apart at other times...and the drawing apart brings back that passion...because it brings back an element of mystery to the marriage.<P>snl...no offense buffy, but I think this is part of the bs fog, and attempt to explain away the lack of passion, and make it into something else. I can't explain it, but I have seen it in some, a deep passion for each other that never wavers, they literally become one. All else is a settling, an accomodation of sorts. This does not mean it is bad, but it is the reason for affair proofing marriages, cause if you do not have that passion, and become aware of it with another, you will leave. If you have the passion, no need for affair proofing, will never happen, anymore than you would cut off your arm or leg. <P>buffy.....To answer your question, no I don't want my WS back under any of your conditions....but at the same time that's not possible...if he is with me it will be because that's where he knows he wants to be. <P>snl....maybe for you, but not for many. Lots of marriages have a partner who would leave if they saw a legitimate way to do so, in other words are not passionate about their spouse. That is the problem with vows, guilt, and other coercive type efforts to keep people in marriages. If our culture instead emphazied "fitting" well, and made it painless (as possible) to leave a marriage, many would do so I think. There is nothing evil in wanting a partner you feel safe with, and disappear into, but the practicalities and realities of life mean we often are not married to such a person, yet do not leave for the unknown (to risky).<P>Buffy...During his foggy days if you asked my WS about his "soul mate" he would have said "she understands me", "we are passionate about one another"....all the things you feel like are vital positives in a relationship. But he realizes now how false those ideas were...his relationship with OW was basically very shallow...but his impression of it at the time was that it was profound....nothing has changed about them but his prospection of her. <P>snl.....I believe that is probably often true. Just as it is in dating relationships, it takes time to validate any relationship. The question is, if you started over, before he knew either you or ow who would he have chosen? It was shallow now in comparison to the history with you, that does not mean he wouldn't have been happier with her (hopefully not, but anyways you see the point). The supposition that the marriage you are in is ALWAYS the best one, is partly based on history, a sort of emotional inertia. It may be that your husband chose you simply because he did not want to do the work needed to deepen the relationship with ow, and just settled for you, the comfortable shoe (and not trying to be offensive faye), many do just that.<P>buffy...And nothing has changed about your relationship with your wife but your prospection...brought about by your relationship with OW.<P>snl.......yes, exactly. That is the primary danger (if you will) of affairs, and the reason for so-called affair proofing. It forces a hard look at the marriage you are in, this is usually good, but it also means it may end, no free rides in life. But that does not mean the affair itself is wrong, the 2 people may very well be better suited to each other (although more often than not, seems not to be the case, hence our negative view on affairs as a good means to find a life partner).<P>buffy.....This one is easy...no, I don't...because I have no problems seeing myself committed to this person for as long as I live...so it is possible....at least for me.<P>snl.....And if your husband um........... decided to (you pick a horrible enuf scenario), you would still remain married? Nothing is that absolute, cause humans are not made to be so, we have the ability to choose, we are not instinctual, therefore there are limits to every choice we make. You are applying your standard to "this" husband, and what how you percieve him, therefore your committment is narrowly defined. Anyways, it is a philosophic point, not really important, except in the religious argument which I want to address later.<P>Fd...I hope this answers your questions, but I doubt it because I still feel you are just trying to justify the end of your marriage to yourself...and that's understandable...passion has you in its grip...but just remember...passion ebbs and there had better be more then passion or you'll have nothing at all to hold you together during the hard times.<BR>Sometimes a level head has to overrule an errant heart.<P>snl...Indeed, these are my concerns too. But how does one tell the difference?<P>fairydust...Many of your questions are hard to answer because the state of mind of a WS in the fog is often in a constant state of flux. One day they want one thing, the next day something else.<P>snl....well, I must not be in fog then...hooray!!! Cause everyday I want answers to these issues, and keep working on them, as I find the truths, I don't waver, but it is hard work.<P><BR><<This is about the notion of vows, and forever etc. etc. Do you really want a spouse who is not passionate about you?>>><P>That passion can be regained.<P>snl.....maybe, it was my willingness to accept my "feelings" are hard to be certain of, that keeps me here, and studying this stuff. But there has to be a specific effort and time frame to do this. And the question has to be asked was their ever any passion in the first place. Many times not, people marry for lots of reasons, and being "in"-love is not always present (or was wishful thinking).<P><<2. If your spouse tells you (as they must if the honesty principle is being honored), that they just are not "in"-love with you, do you take it personally (like a rejection), and/or get angry? Or just go into denial and tell em they can't possibly feel that way so must be just temporarily insane, and then proceed to "fix" them.>><P>I was in shock when my H said he "didn't thin he loved me anymore". But once again, that "fog flux" comes into play. He thought he loved the OW. Then 6 weeks later he didn't think he loved her and started realizing he still loved me.<P>snl.....yes plenty of confusion goes on, I am happy it worked out for you, but 6 weeks is not very long, and discovery does force all into contemplation of what is really felt. I think that is a key to finding truth, when affairs are secret they are somewhat protected from emotional reality, when exposed all have to evaluate what they really want. Obviously your H wanted you.<P><< I am having trouble with these issues, I do not wish to hurt my W, but I do not want us to continue a troubled marriage, or to "recover" to a comfortable (polite), but passionless marriage.>><P>But it doesn't have to be that way! If you both put forth the effort it can be wonderful. <P>snl.....yes, maybe. But to say it will be wonderful (as many do, or imply) is a fog of its own. IMO you do the work to be a responsible human being (to yourself and those around you), but you be honest too. If you just don't want to live in a married relationship with someone, you must tell them so (the radical honesty principle), and they should let you go, sacrificial marriage is no good for anyone, the POJA should apply to staying married as well.<P><<<I wobble between being very guilty (how can I do this to her after 23 years), and a strong desire not to live the rest of my life without passion. Do I have a right to make that choice, or am I some kind of emotional property, obligated to take care of her needs?>>><P>IMO you are obligated to really give it a chance and keep an open mind for awhile. Not all marriages can be saved, but in many cases things can turn out better than you ever imagined.<P>snl...I agree.<P><<It interests me you paint the ws and op in such unflattering terms. They are just people, same as you,>>><P>I have not stepped outside the boundaries of my marriage, even though while we were separated I could have. Not even horrible pain and desperate loneliness caused me to do that. So I can't agree with the "just like you" part.<P>snl...the only difference is you have not done so, but the capability exists in all, is part of being human. Marriage is an artifical construct, we all bond, and we will do so with who we percieve fits/benefits us most. Those who claim they will never (go outside the marital paradigm) for moral reasons, may force compliance on their emotions (and that choice), but the drive is still there, it is called survival.<P><<it is not the A that makes them unworthy, it is what they do with it. If they act honorably (with existing spouse) and subsequently marry, I see no reason to disparage them.>>><P>Ugh, ugh. It's foggy in here! Acting "honorably" with your current spouse means giving your all in effort to save the marriage and then, if it doesn't work, getting a divorce. Then AFTER the divorce have any relationsip you want. The word "honor" has no place when affairs are being discussed. There is no honor. I have the utmost respect for all marriage vows except when they are said between a MP and OP. It's ludicrous. Adulterers pledging to be faithful, honor and cherish each other when their whole relationship is based on lies & deception. <P>snl...I understand your outrage, but by itself an affair is indistinguishable from the emotional events leading to marriage, and therefore has no inherent wrongness. The outrage comes from an attempt to impose exclusivity on human choices, something that will never work. Pushed hard enuf, all of us will violate every moral code we possess. Honor and integrity are only in part about initial choices, they are also about what we do after ill-advised choices. An affair that is not based upon using someone, but loving someone is no different than any other human expression of love, regardless of ones marital status, but it is ill-advised. When that becomes apparent, one has choices, and how they act on those choices is what counts. I agree that loving another while married gets our lives out of sequence, and that returning (and answering qiestions) to resolve the existing marriage is the proper action, whether it be divorce, or various reconcilliation attempts. Not sure what you meant about adulterers marrying, are you saying this particular choice is not something one can learn from, or recover from? Maybe not, I don't know. But I do know that regardless of how this turns out for me, I will never place myself in this position again. But I also know now that living in a withdrawn marriage is no good either, and will always be proactive about that. So, does that mean I am never to be trusted again? Or that you have not been tested hard enuf?<P>

I don't really know what to say Sad N Lonely. It seem like you are desperately looking for validation to end your marriage and justification for your affair. I'v espoken about my best friend before. The day before she planned on telling her H she wanted a divorce she went to tell her Dad that thye were "having problems". What she wanted from her father was validation, a pat on the back, a "poor baby" of course you should divorce him if that is what you want. Instead her father (who she is quite close to) looked at her and said "You made a commitment, you have children, you need to go home and MAKE it work." She was steaming mad when she left.The last thing she wanted was to make it work. Then she said she suddenly realized he was right. But none of this "Woe is me, I now have to live in a passionless, joyless marriage boo hoo." She was determined to make it work and make it happy and good. She said the first few months were really hard, and then the love started to come back. She never regrets for one minute going back to her marriage. She asked my permission to send my H a letter recounting her experiences and I said yes. She said it was extremely painful to write and my H said he was very affected by it. She can tell you all about fog, she is convinced that aliens took over her body lol. Marraige shouldn't be about living a miserable life just because you got married. It should be about making it better so that you can be happy. That of course sometimes takes a tremendous amount of effort which the majority of people arent' really willing to expend.<P><<< What if you don't feel like being nice (and stuff your feelings....till you explode)? etc. etc.>><P>Well that would be conflict avoidance which is a major cause of affairs in the first place. Cheaters are conflict avoiders and they generally continue to do so in any subsequent relationships too.<P><<Then there is the concept of fog, that you really want/should live your entire life in intimacy with this person and you just don't know it. In other words do not trust your feelings at all......>>><P>To me fog is seeing someone you have known for years suddenly become an alien person. Their behaviors change, their personality changes. My H's own brother said of my "fog" H, "I have no clue who this person is, but he certainly isn't the person I have known my entire life." A person in the fog tries to convince himself of anything that fits his current state. LOTS of revisionist history goes on. Also lots of grasping at straws. When my H first started his A he was desperately trying to pin something on me to absolve his behavior. The best he could come up with is "Remember that time when we were dating and you told me to F off?"<P><BR><<We often marry in youth, people regularly misrepresent themselves (called putting best foot forward), have unresolved psychological baggage they bring, have our own ignorance about who we are, deliberately omit imformation about ourselves (particularly if we think it will cost us the relationship), and so forth and so on.>>><P>ROFL. Can't you see how affairs fall into this statement? Talk about misrepresentation and putting the best foot forward! Boy oh boy did my H learn the hard way from his OW (after he moved in with her) exactly how much people really do misrepresent themselves. <P><<<And isn't part of the fixing starting over? Musn't we end the old dysfunctional relationship?>>><P>Starting over is wonderful. My husband and I decided to do it together.<P><BR>I'm really sorry to see how you feel about marriage. It's depressing, but not surprising. We do live in a throwaway society where marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper to so many. Fixing a marriage is hard work. Much harder than jumping into a new and exciting relationship. I don't think you will find the justifications you seek on this site, but I do hope you will find some food for thought. If you are determined to end your marriage then you will do so. Hopefully you will do a lot of soul searching as to what went wrong, why you were morally able to consider adultery as acceptable, why didn't you try to fix things before it got to that point etc. People are often doomed to repeat their past mistakes and the grass is usually not greener.

Dear Fairydust, What a wonderful and inspiring response to read...thank you!

FD:<P>Kudos. Take a bow.<P>SnL:<P>Did this foghorn pierce the fog? I do want to state here in response to something you said about your questions being "annoying" -- no, they are not. You are seeking, and this site exists for that purpose. You will/have encounter/ed contrary opinion. That is what healthy discussion is all about.<P>Cutting to the quick: those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. So it is with you and OP, or you and any future relationship. If you do not learn the MB lessons now, you will take the old baggage into that relationship (including your current one); with no marital porter to help with the load. Instead of catching the train, you will be run over by it in the tunnel.<P>The MB philosophy is a roadmap, my friend. It is not your precise itinerary. That is for you and your wife to work out. But without that map, it is so, so easy to get lost. As far as reigniting the passion in your marriage: try Gregory Godek's <I>1001 Ways to be Romantic</I> ... it is not about sex: it is about how to express the emotion of love in its physical manifestation (romance). Ka-ching go the love unit deposits, my friend.<P>In order for this all to work you AND your wife must be 100-percent dedicated to that goal. I wish you the best of luck.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<P>

I found this post very interesting. <P>Why? Because, even though I'm the betrayed spouse, I've often asked myself and/or my H these same questions...<P>For what it's worth, I will try to answer the questions honestly. Maybe it will help you, maybe not. I'm not really answering to help myself-- I've already made my decision to try to save my marriage...<P><B>1. Do you want your ws back whether they ever want to be there or not? This is about the notion of vows, and forever etc. etc. Do you really want a spouse who is not passionate about you? </B><P><BR>If my H honestly said to me that he wasn't willing to try to make the marriage work, then NO, I WOULD NOT WANT TO REMAIN MARRIED.<P>However, I think anyone who thinks that the current passion/excitement/love etc. that they're feeling in a relationship will last forever is ONLY FOOLING THEMSELVES.<P>If there's one thing I've learned from my own marriage, it's that love/passion comes and goes in a relationship. My marriage-- all 19 years of it-- has been a journey of peaks and valleys. Sometimes love and passion has been there, sometimes not. But, it's been my experience that if you ride out the lows (and remain optimistic), then the peaks are well worth the wait.<P>I also believe that life and love is what we make of it. I have hope, not only that my H's love will return for me, but that my love will return for my H.<P>IMHO, passion can exist without love. To me, they are two very different things. It's nice when they are combined. But over 19 years of marriage, I have experienced both passion without love...and, love without the passion.<P>Right now, I would have to describe the relationship I'm having with my H (WS) as passion without love. I do desire him (intensely/physically) but the "bond" for me is gone. I'm still trying to get that back.<P>I'm certain I could get it with someone else. In fact, I've been in other relationships (prior to marriage) where I've had these same intense/loving feelings with another.<P>I'm also certain I can get it back with my H.<P>Again, I think these highs and lows will come and go between two people forever...<BR> <P><BR><B>2. If your spouse tells you (as they must if the honesty principle is being honored), that they just are not "in"-love with you, do you take it personally (like a rejection), and/or get angry? Or just go into denial and tell em they can't possibly feel that way so must be just temporarily insane, and then proceed to "fix" them.</B><P>Well, my feelings were hurt. It's hard to hear your spouse tell you they don't love you anymore. Even harder to hear them tell you that they feel love for someone else. However, I never tried to convince my H that he didn't love the OW. I'm certain that he did feel love for her. Just as I'm certain he fell out of love with me.<P>I did take it personally at first. I thought, "What's wrong with me? I'm a good person"...but then I learned not to take it personally. Afterall, I'm not a *bad* person. I'm worthy of love. I LIKE ME. I'm proud of who I am.<P>I never told my H that it wasn't possible for him not to love me. And, I DON'T WANT TO FIX HIM. I'm certain he fell out of love with me. I know he probably despised me at one point in our marriage. I now know that certain things I said and did caused him to fall out of love with me (lovebusters). However, IMHO, it was my H who took things too personally: As if everything I said or did was a reflection of how I felt about him. My H made a fatal mistake in assuming certain things about me...(ie: I couldn't possibly love him since I did x or y. I must think he's stupid since I said this or that).<P>I try very hard NOT to make assumptions. If my H sends me a *message* that I find confusing, I never simply assume that I understand what he meant to say. I ask many questions...this, too, drives my H insane at times. He says I overanalyze everything (IMHO this is a lovebuster on his part--he's judging me unfairly). He assumes in this type of situation that I'm *harping* on things...that I won't let things go...when really I just need him to clarify his feelings/emotions. If I assume that my H made a statement just to hurt my feelings, than I may be carrying around resentment that was NEVER THERE to begin with. Why would I want to carry around resentment???? Resentment is what causes emotional divorce in marriages...<P>...besides, what good does it do your inner soul to make poor judgements/assumptions. Aren't you really just hurting yourself?<P><B>3. According to the Harley's book on givers and takers, it is not possible for human beings to make vows pledging life long committment, do you believe this?</B><P>Really??? Harley said this? Hmmmmm....<P>Having not read the book, I believe Givers can make life long commitments and KEEP THEM...as long as they are able to remain "givers". To remain a "giver" you must overlook all obsticles that get dropped in your lap. You must learn to take a deep breath and keep things in perspective. You must learn compassion, patience, and understanding. You must be able to look at all angles and not jump to conclusions. You must never make assumptions. You must open your heart and soul up to what's possible. YOU MUST FOREVER REMAIN OPTIMISTIC.<P>Takers, on the other hand, will never learn to keep a commitment as long as they remain a "taker". Takers don't care about others...therefore, why would they care about keeping a commitment if it doesn't serve a purpose for them? If marriage becomes inconvenient, why work at it? If something better is behind door #1, then why waste time staring at the box in front of your face?<P>IMHO, takers will always be the losers. They will never experience the exhilaration of triumph, of turning around a negative and making it a positive. They will never learn humility, or perserverance, or what it means to really *win at life*. Takers are the ultimate pessimists in life. They give up because it's convenient for them. They change their surroundings to suit their needs, instead of doing the hard work of changing the situation. They are always "in search"....and everything they desire is always "just around the corner". IMHO, they will never find true peace.<P>Of course, people are very complex creatures. They have many facets to their personalities. Their perceptions can become warped, their judgment impaired. Rarely is an individual either solely a giver or a taker. But rather a combination of both.<P>It's probably very rare to find an individual that can remain a giver for life. Therefore, I would have to agree that the amount of people able to keep a commitment for life would have to be a very small number indeed.<P><B>But impossible? No, I don't think it impossible. </B><P>NOTE: BTW, I'm not a believer that all affairs (or even the majority of affairs) are a direct result of unmet needs. IMHO, the reason individuals have affairs has a lot more to do with how they view their world (optimistic -vs- pessimistic), and much less to do with their actual circumstances.<P>Hoping you and your wife both find peace...with or without each other. <P>Always a BELIEVER! Peace, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited July 03, 2001).]

Cali, and others who offered the Biblical view.......I won't "argue" the theology, mostly cause no one can know with perfect certainty what God's will is, just state some of my thoughts re marriage, and maybe ask a few questions.<P>First, I believe that since God gave us brains, and cognitive abilities we are expected to use them, we call that logical thinking. That means (to me) any Biblical interpretations of anything has to pass the sniff test, that is make sense. In order to make sense it cannot be in conflict with secular truths. For example, the earth may be 6000 years old as the literalists claim, but our brains (applying science) tell us it is billions of years old, therefore the creation stories are not meant to be taken literal, but in general they do have the sequencing right, which is a remarkable coincidence for stories predating any cosmological knowledge. Likewise I feel about human behaviour, it must take into account the reality of human psychology. Clearly humans fit each other differently, and all of us instinctively know we could not live successfully in an intimate relationship with just anyone, and since freewill insures we will make marital errors in mate selection, marriage cannot be an absolute. It is nonsensical that God created us with freewill and then would punish us by prohibiting the correction of errors in acting on that freewill. On the other hand God does provide information on what a marriage should look/feel like, IMO those are standards we apply to whether we have such a marriage, not admonitions on how to "feel", since we cannot control how we feel, only how we act. Further He talks about oneflesh, this implies a special bond that we can feel and recognize. The various scriptures about God hating divorce, and not divorcing are not commands to remain in a secular marriage at any cost, but rather not to leave a oneflesh union.<P>If we worship the institution of marriage we are guilty of legalism, essentially icon worship. God created us to bond with each other, I can only believe He means for that bond to happen, otherwise we are not married, in a scriptural sense. It interests me that when I ask folks, including pastors when marriage occurs, I don't get useful answers. One pastor told me when you have sex with someone.....? Clearly a marriage license and a church wedding (what about JP's, captains of ships, etc.) do not a marriage make. Those are cultural/legal actions, mostly about property ownership, parentage and inheritance. So what is scriptural marriage, and when does it occur? The question is much harder to answer than one might think at first. But the answer is critical, cause Biblical admonitions only apply if married. The Bible offers a couple indications re this. One is intent based (cleaveing), the other is specific, oneflesh (2 become one), but it does not specifically tell us how to recognize oneflesh. Intent is a thorny issue, and why we have the concept of annulment, we instinctively know folks can marry and not have the proper intent to merge with another (for a whole variety of reasons). On the other hand, we can observe, and talk with people who have clearly become one with another, it is in their voices, their behaviour, it radiates from them. Because of freewill, I am pretty certain actual marriage occurs far less often than the act of getting a marriage license. <P>The process of entering marriage culturally (license, wedding, etc.). Then co-habitiating and carrying out the picture of "married" life strikes me as being remarkably similar to the notion of going to church, doing good works, and figuring you are a "believer", are "saved". We know this is not true, that one has to make a leap of faith, and that God knows our hearts. That even the lowliest sinner who makes this leap on their deathbed after a life of terrible sin, is more worthy than any pillar of the community who never believed in their heart. Likewise I am certain, many "married" people have impediments in their hearts that keep them from being married, regardless of the trappings, and that this is the oneflesh the Bible speaks of. IMO marital bonding is all about the heart, the passion we speak of, and the Bible speaks of, and that if this is not present, it is because we have not married. I don't believe you can reduce this bond down to a list of "rules" and that if you try to carry out the rules you are married, anymore than you can reduce salvation down to a list of rules. <P>In addition, the Bible does speak of divorce, implying marriage is not an absolute, and can be flawed. The most popular one being adultery. This is interesting cause why make this exception? It is a mundane physical act of no consequence in itself, why allow the ending of a marriage over it? I suspect the exception is symbolic, and meant to make it clear marriage is not a given, is not automatic, and can be wrong (in the sense oneflesh has not occured), for many reasons. Human psychology requires that we bond in ways that enhance the psychological health of both individuals, this is probably the oneflesh the Bible speaks of....cause it accounts for the secular realities and the spiritual truths. Folks who bond this way do not have affairs, or neglect their partners, live longer than others, etc. these people form a very small % of marriages (under 20%), but they do form an identifiable group, I find that interesting. So what status do the rest have? I don't know really, we have freewill, so can live as we want. I think God loves us regardless of our living circumstances, but he leaves mate selection up to us, if we choose wisely, we have oneflesh, if not, something less. <P>The Bible speaks often of what is in one's heart. Clearly this is important, and it is where "feelings" are found (so to speak). If we recognize that feelings reflect truths not under control of cognitive choices, we have a conundrum. Most marital scripture deals in feelings, if we understand we cannot make ourselves feel things, it seems more likely that scripture is not about rules, but about description, what marriage feels like, so we can know. There is more, but by now I am reasonably sure my thoughts are considered blasphemous at the very least, if not satanic influenced(yes been accused of this as well by my wife, a sort of black fog I guess). It is not that bad, by temperament I am a rationalist (NT on kiersey scale), so we accept nothing without picking it apart and examining every piece under a microscope. I do think the Bible makes it clear marriage is a serious business, and that divorce is not to be taken lightly, but marriage is not an absolute. Saying one must remain in marital relationship cuase of vows, is akin to saying one must attend church if they want to be a Christian, it is what is in your heart that counts, not what you do. In any event, I am not sure of all this, but I am thinking hard about it all, and praying for discernment.<BR> <BR>