I admit to being naive. I think it comes from my trusting nature, but if there's only one thing I've learned in this nightmare, it's to be aware of the capability of otherwise "normal" people to do strange things.<P>I've posted recently that I think that my wife's "non-affair" with OM looks to be over. This suspicion on my part is not due to evidence that it is over, but rather due to LACK of evidence that it is continuing. Accordingly, Steve advised me to fashion my Plan B letter to steer away from references to the OM. Even if I'm wrong about the affair's status, the Plan B letter will still be appropriate.<P>Fast forward to yesterday. Since I've adopted the "it's over" suspicion, I've revised my policy of not contacting OM's W. Contact is almost unavoidable since we live a few houses apart on the same street. I had previously avoided contact because whatever was discussed always found its way full circle and turned into an LB. So, with the affair over, or dormant, the circle is broken. I've tested this a few times recently, and sure enough, no has been no "echo."<P>Anyway, yesterday I came across OM's W getting her mail out of the mailbox and I asked her if OM told her about our conversation last Saturday (See my post, Encounter with OM). She said she hadn't heard about it. I briefly described it.<P>Then she described to me how their college aged daughter had put her father (OM) on notice that she would disown him when they (OM and my wife) GET MARRIED.<P>I told OM's W that there is no way that they're getting married. Won't happen. I shared my suspicion that I think the affair may even be over. She responded that that cannot be true because OM frequently tries to convince her and their children that they need to accept it - the marriage is going to happen and cannot be stopped.<P>So, either I'm dead wrong about the affair being over, or, if not, that there's no way they'll get married, OR there are lies abundant in Fantasy Land.<P>I guess it's possible that my wife is pulling off the greatest performance of her life by appearing to be moving toward divorce and a single life without me, while maintaing a secret pact with OM that as soon as our divorce is final, she's his. Her strategy would be designed to keep from pissing me off and maintaining a good argument for joint custody (regardless of whether or not that matters for a custody decision). She may be this devious, but she may also just be indecisive about what she really wants and is keeping her options open with me.<P>But I guess it's also possible that OM is equally vying for an Oscar OR is being strung along by my wife because she wants to maintain this option as well.<P>And it's possible that neither one of them knows what the other is doing, or is intentionally misleading their "soulmate."<P>Am I in a unique position of knowing more than they do, or am I being naive? Granted, it doesn't matter because my actions will be the same either way - imminent Plan B. But it sure is tempting to send information the other way around the circle to see what happens. NO WAY!! I'm just gonna sit back and watch. See you soon, Rick, HBH, and everyone else in B world.<P>WAT

WAT....I am a bit lost....is your wife still seeing OM or pretending that the affair is over but doesnt want marriage with you either?<P>Is the Other man's wife working on her marriage or has she given up...so sorry I cannot remember all these details. Certainly sounds like other man and his wife are not making any efforts which will have OM still chasing your wife....<BR>geeze....so sorry WAT.<P>Scuba<P>

WAT:<P>No, I don't think you are naive. It is a case, I think, of two fog-cases obscuring each other.<P>So, what you and OM's W discuss is predicated upon fog-talk. Hard to communicate in the real world based on fantasy-land perspectives.<P>As far as the plan B letter, if the A seems to be winding down, then perhaps omitting discussion of OM within the letter is a good idea.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

I think this is good information for you to have going into Plan B. The truth is always easier to deal with then the fog of deception.<P>Have you considered giving the OM’s wife a copy of “Surviving an Affair”? And maybe “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”? If both of you followed the MB concepts…. Who know what could come of that.<P>Z<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Scuba2 - my wife has never admitted the affair, but she knows I know about their "close relationship" and she admitted to being "in love" with him way last July. I believe she takes the Clintonian view that an affair has to include intercourse and if that doesn't happen until after a legal separation is signed, it's still not an affair (if that's the case, what's divorce for?).<P>So, regardless of what we call it, she doesn't acknowledge anything. She's always pretended that there's no affair. Now, it's my suspicion that she is no longer seeing OM, which raises the question I posed in perhaps too many words - is she just waiting for our divorce to be final, although she has yet to file, to continue with OM? Our mandatory year of separation is over Aug. 20, but she could file before then with nothing being finalized until afterward the one year period is complete.<P>She has resisted counseling, stated her intention to file, and all-in-all, not been willing to work on our marriage. "I just want to be friends."<P>OM and W are well along in divorce proceedings. They initially had the same one year requirement, but W counter filed for adultery which can eliminate the one year requirement. She has not given up, but has not applied MB principles or any other logic other than brute force. As a result, they're constantly at war. Yes, I fully expect OM to continue to chase my wife IF she's actually ended it.<P>WAT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B>Have you considered giving the OM’s wife a copy of “Surviving an Affair”? And maybe “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”? If both of you followed the MB concepts…. Who know what could come of that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Z and STL - I gave her a copy of SAA a while back. Before that (even before I discovered MB) I tried to get her to approach the problem using a constructive rather than destructive method, but she was incapable of doing that. She even resisted going on anti-depressants. As a result, I had to isolate myself from her and her kids to make any progress on my own.<P>Since she hasn't changed her approach, she either didn't read SAA or still can't get out of the destructive mode. Best I can tell, she's never been to this forum despite my urging. All the while she has asked me how I can cope.<P>WAT

Hi WAT,<P>Does it really matter if you mention the OM or not in the Plan B letter? By giving the Plan B letter what are you trying to do? It is for protecting your love for her and or prepair for the final end of your marriage. I would go along with what Steve said not to mention the OM. Also I would give your wife the dogs. Since they are hers. <P>Also how did your wife handle the first divorce. You mentioned you started to date her while she was in the middle of it. This might give you a good understanding how she handles herself. This might be a pattern she has. Some food for thought.

WAT:<P>Well obviously it doesn't matter from the standpoint of your actions; but it does make you wonder, doesn't it?<P>Deviousness aside, it seems to me that you now *do* have some evidence that suggests the affair is still a part of the equation. If you just take it that far, doesn't it make her denials and refusals and your frustration in Plan A a bit easier to understand?<P>Ish

Hi Big Kitty -<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pahakissa1:<BR><B>Does it really matter if you mention the OM or not in the Plan B letter?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree, it doesn't matter too much. Based on my conversation with Steve, I'll not include anything about OM even though this conversation with OM's W (which Steve doesn't know about, obviously) contradicts my suspicions.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pahakissa1:<BR><B>Also how did your wife handle the first divorce. You mentioned you started to date her while she was in the middle of it. This might give you a good understanding how she handles herself. This might be a pattern she has. Some food for thought.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Her first marriage was the classic Homecoming Queen and the Captain of the football team. It didn't last long and 21 years ago, when we first started dating, we didn't talk much about it. She wanted to forget it - writing it off as youth's foolishness - so I didn't press her too much.<P>I don't think we can call it a pattern since it was so short with no children and we've been married for 17+ years, having two boys (one deceased), so there are virtually no similarities.<P>WAT<P>

Hi Ishy,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ishmael:<BR><B>...doesn't it make her denials and refusals and your frustration in Plan A a bit easier to understand?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, it does. Further, doesn't it give some credibility to my Plan A in that we're no where close to the same situation as OM and W - or are we; just more civilized?<P>I have to admit that in a weird way there is SOME comfort in knowing the affair could still be the reason for her refusal to work on the marriage as opposed to it being over and her STILL not wanting to work on things. Understand?<P>WAT

WAT -<P>Yeah, I do. In a whacky way it makes you feel better. It did me in my situation too. <P>Ish

Hi WAT,<P>Who knows what evil lurks in heart of the fog? Only the Shadow does and he ain't talkin. <P>It seems to me that it is very likely that one or both have an idea that they will marry when the divorces are final. My guess is that your Plan A has diluted the determination of your W to do so, but I wouldn't be surprise that marriage to OM isn't a fall back position. It gets mighty lonely out there when you realized you have torched two families. It must have been for something right?? <P>I would suggest going with your plan, after all you only know what you know and it is as good of information as you have. So act upon it. WAT you are a good man and you are trying to do the right thing, never doubt yourself on this count. If Plan B (w/o OM mentioned) is the way you would like to go, then do it. Plan B is for you my man, not your W.<P>Hang in there.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

WAT:<P>To reiterate JL (and what I've said before elsewhere) ... Plan B is for you, my friend. And it is not a selfish, manipulative (fill in any other WS-applied phrases here).<P>Godspeed and prayers,<BR>STL

I agree with STL, come join us in Plan B land, yeah, it's fun - really. Rick will agree, right, Rick? <P>All kidding aside, it is very interesting this turn of events, but it doesn't really change what you are going to do...