What's up with this....<P>As some of you might know, after six months in plan A, my WS continued with A despite repeated denials and "final" attempts at recovery. After a plan B letter received only further denials and disdain from her, I confronted WS with all my evidence and asked her to move out. Much discussion later (and the police coming to our house...), she refused and I gave up <P>Yesterday, my wife was served with divorce papers. I told her about them coming over the weekend. Initially, her reaction was one of "yeah, right!". Then when she knew I was serious, it deteriorated into accusations of <B>me</B> being dishonest and deceptive (for making arrangements for the papers without her knowing) and <B>me</B> "blowing" our last chance (since after the police incident, she promised to break-off A yet again - now the 4th time I've heard that in the past 8 mos).<P>So, after I'm home from work yesterday and she's picked up the papers, she tells me that she's called one of our previous counsellors (that we only met once, but she liked the most) and arranged for us to meet with her next week. When I aked her "why?", she tells me that she wants to give "us one last honest try", although that is what she has said the previous two times - the last of which was a month ago and she never stopped seeing OM for even a day thereafter!<P>What do I do?<P>My heart and mind have already closed the book on our marriage - no more feelings for her, except sorrow and pity for the mess she created. My love bank is empty and since this last fiasco revealed that her EA converted to a PA, I can't even contemplate ever being initmate with her again. But, I have three children with her and always worry about the pain we are about to cause them going thru with divorce.<P>I've always told myself during this trial that if this ended, I wanted to be without regrets. So, every time she asks me to "try again", I conceed since <B>maybe</B> this will be the time she's honest. But, I've lost all my trust in her since she's lied her way thru counseling so many times before.<P>Any suggestions or words of wisdom?<P>Thanks!

SF:<P>You are indeed at a cross-roads. But perhaps a card in your favor: the divorce papers are filed, but no decree issued. See how dedicated she is to marital recovery.<P>Sit down with her and share the MB principles. Honesty: she must come clean about all that has happened. Protection: let her know that she can trust you not to use what you have learned via honesty in a hurtful manner; that you are willing to provide a safe haven for her to express herself emotion-wise and history-wise. Care: that through these rules and the fulfilling of emotional needs, you will express your care, but she must do likewise. Time: she must be willing to spend the time to implement all of this.<P>In order to go down that path, she must be willing to do a no-contact letter with the OM. Counseling alone will not do it. Outside of Dr. Harley's methodology, most marital counselors still have a [high] incidence of marital failure. Ask her if she is willing to read and discuss the information on this site.<P>Plan D is final and it will have a lasting impact on your children. My father left 34 years ago, and it still has lasting marks on his children to this day. My children are suffering from the aftermath of the divorce to my exW. Rebuilding an enduring marriage is a far, far better and saner path. But it is a path that both of you must be dedicated to 100-percent.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 03, 2001).]

Ditto STL's advice...<P>Kids are very resilient when they know they are loved, but if a D can be avoided, it is best as long as the marriage grows. I agree whole heartedly that counselling alone wont do it. I know of many couples that the WS said all the right things to look good and *make the effort*, and all the while was still going through with the affair. Plan A and counselling, Agreement of Radical Honesty...she has a long road ahead of her, as do you. If you are going to undergo this plot, yet again, I suggest a Zero tolerance policy. If she is willing to write the letter, then let her know that one slip up, and the D goes through. <P>You have a tough decision, but it does sound as though you love her very much and still hold out that hope for the *one last time*. But be very strong and specific!!<P>Keep the faith! *Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*<P>Trueheart

Spirt<P>This is good, tremendous in fact. <BR>However, marital counseling is teh least effective of all therapy's with a 25% success rate. So if you go to a traditional marriage counselor you have a 75% change of failing. I suggest trying to get her to agree to telecounseling with the Harley's, even if it's after the visit with the counselor.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spiritfilled:<BR><B>What's up with this....<P>As some of you might know, after six months in plan A, my WS continued with A despite repeated denials and "final" attempts at recovery. After a plan B letter received only further denials and disdain from her, I confronted WS with all my evidence and asked her to move out. Much discussion later (and the police coming to our house...), she refused and I gave up <P>Yesterday, my wife was served with divorce papers. I told her about them coming over the weekend. Initially, her reaction was one of "yeah, right!". Then when she knew I was serious, it deteriorated into accusations of me</B> being dishonest and deceptive (for making arrangements for the papers without her knowing) and <B>me</B> "blowing" our last chance (since after the police incident, she promised to break-off A yet again - now the 4th time I've heard that in the past 8 mos).<P>So, after I'm home from work yesterday and she's picked up the papers, she tells me that she's called one of our previous counsellors (that we only met once, but she liked the most) and arranged for us to meet with her next week. When I aked her "why?", she tells me that she wants to give "us one last honest try", although that is what she has said the previous two times - the last of which was a month ago and she never stopped seeing OM for even a day thereafter!<P>What do I do?<P>My heart and mind have already closed the book on our marriage - no more feelings for her, except sorrow and pity for the mess she created. My love bank is empty and since this last fiasco revealed that her EA converted to a PA, I can't even contemplate ever being initmate with her again. But, I have three children with her and always worry about the pain we are about to cause them going thru with divorce.<P>I've always told myself during this trial that if this ended, I wanted to be without regrets. So, every time she asks me to "try again", I conceed since <B>maybe</B> this will be the time she's honest. But, I've lost all my trust in her since she's lied her way thru counseling so many times before.<P>Any suggestions or words of wisdom?<P>Thanks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

STL, trueheart, and JK have covered all the bases.<P>Isn't this an all too common scenario, once some true reality is injected. I wish you well.

Thanks for your help, friends!<P>Way back when, I pointed my WS to this site and have intermittently referred her some of the threads that have come up from time to time on these boards. But, as has been mentioned so many times before from others here, I found that you can't make them do anything. She would tell me that she wasn't interested in checking any of this out, that just because this worked for other people didn't mean it pertained to her, and that she needed to "listen to her own voice". Of course, all of this was said during the many months that the A was really ongoing, so what does it mean for now...?<P>Here's my dilemma: I have no trust for her words anymore - too many lies spoken and promises unkept during these past many months since Dday. Being unable to trust her at her word, I can only accept working on recovery within the confines of the principles delineated here - and doesn't that come off as somewhat dictatorial when I tell her she'll have to do this, that, and the next thing?<P>We have a 90 day "cooling off" period in my state from the date the papers are served to any possible first settlement hearing. So, how strict do I insist she do the work since (in my heart) I'll never believe that any of the rhetoric she has used before will mean a damn this time around.<P>BTW, we are also planning on working thru a divorce settlement thru mediation simultaneously <P>In many ways, I wish she would let this marriage die. If it wasn't for my children (and seeing how messed up my wife and I have turned out as products of our own parents divorce), I'd have no regrets from walking away at this point.<P>I know there are no easy answers thru any of this - and maybe all I'm doing is rambling here. However, I have this session with her and our counsellor next week now and I'm unsure how to play it out.<P>Thanks for listening and helping!

ditto STL with an exception.<P>DON'T immediately sit down with her and try to educate her. Give her the Harley's phone number, remind her of the Plan B condition - no contact - and ask her to send you a copy of the no contact letter. Agree guys?<P>You've been fooled too many times before. Let her fret awhile.<P>WAT

spiritfilled,<P>I'm going to be blunt: No.<P>You have been there, done that twice. All the really good marriage counselors are no longer practicing, because now they write books and make tons of money. It would be a selfless act on your part to go to therapy for your wife, so that you can divorce in relative peace for your kids' sakes. <P>Your children will be better off living in 2 homes with 2 loving parents, instead of one home where the air is always rife with conflict. Even the best of parents spill their emotional fallout during "protected" discord. They need consistency, predictability, and discipline. If you persevere in nurturing your children's emotional health, especially as negative behaviors relate to your divorce, there's no reason why they can't grow up to be well-adjusted adults.<P>I am 100% for saving marriages that can be saved. Not all of them can be saved, unfortunately. You've already prepared yourself for what you thought would be the inevitable. I'll bet you've done this emotional work before, maybe more than once. <P>You're not a puppet. Your feelings are not toys to be manipulated or stray dogs who lead neglected lives. If you have not turned every stone to save your marriage, then you have the responsibility and the commitment to do so. If you have, and you feel your marriage is dead, then your marriage is dead.<P>Call me jaded. Maybe I am. This is my perspective because this is my reality. No one can fully appreciate your decision unless they have walked in your shoes. I struggled for 4-5 years, and I'm tapped out. <P>Listen to your inner voice. Only when you do that can you follow your heart.<P>Blessings,<BR>Nell <P>------------------<BR>One faces the future with one's past.<BR>--Pearl S. Buck

Hi SF,<P>Emotionally, your W and my H are in similar situations. I don't have the d paperwork drawn up but can anytime. I too am at the crossroads of deciding whether to leave or not. Even though H is home it is the little emotional details that are looming. 100% commitment, keeping options open are big question marks between H & I. <P>As yourself, I resigned to the D. Now I am wondering if I want this marriage without the 100% commitment. My mind and heart are saying no. H knows this and anything less for me at this time is not acceptable. <P>So, I offer no real opinion except can you look in the future and know you did all you could or should? What is your W going to off on this go around to make you want her back? Those questions are what my H is having to decide right now. Today.<P>I will be thinking about your family as you struggle through this hard time. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

spiritfilled,<P>I think all the posts so far have been great.<P>This whole thing smacks of appeasement without real change on her part, but that's just my impression.<P>I'm inclined to say to keep the divorce machinery moving forward and put the burden on her to convince you differently. With as little LBing as possible, tell her honestly how you feel, and what steps (including no-contact letter, availability to be checked on at all times) might convince you that she has changed. But don't put a hold on the divorce unless you become convinced there really is a change. The time deadline needs to stay in order to keep pressure on her. She seems to only respect actions, not words.<P>I also echo what's been said about counseling. Unless you're convinced about this counselor, you don't have time to waste with an unproven person.<P>Anyway, that's how I see it.<P>Good luck,<P>Steve

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful words!<P>Since my WS never talk these days about what is going on with "us" (even now after she requested that we return to counseling...), I decided to continue with the divorce process - meeting with our mediator, processing the papers, going to required classes, etc.<P>I also decided to go to a single session with her to our previous counselor next week. I have no hope for us as a couple, but would like to remain amicable since I have to spend the rest of my life encountering this woman as we raise our children together. She asked, so I'll go...<P>I intend to be completely honest with her and our counselor about my motives - no pretenses that I'm there to work on our marriage. That is what I've done for the past 8 mos and it's time for WS to realize what she is giving up <P>Keep us in your prayers!

Spirit - sounds like you know what you're doing.<P>Keep the poker face on and be confident in your motives.<P>Good luck and keep us informed.<P>WAT