WAT,<P>As you know, I've been working with a friend from another website. We email each other several times a day, he knows every detail. He believes, and I agree, that at this point my W's unhappiness has little to do with me or our marriage. She has some self esteem issues that she has revealed to me over the past 7+ months. <P>She is a middle child from a large family. Growing up, she said she never felt anything she said mattered and that nothing she did was ever good enough to please her parents.<BR>When she was a teenager she just said "screw it" and stopped trying. That's how she dealt with it. She said I made her feel the same way. She admitted all of this when we were in counseling, unfortunately we didn't stick with counseling long enough for it to be dealt with. <P>Also, as a teenager she had a weight problem. She says she always felt she was fat and unattractive. Again, she said I made her feel the same way. The truth is she is not fat and is quite beautiful. I've told her that recently, but it doesn't matter what I say, it's her perception that matters.<P>I'll admit that my behavior towards her at times and some of my comments may have reinforced those beliefs, but I feel like I'm being made the scapegoat for problems she has with herself. I think she could use some counseling, but that's something she'll have to realize on her own. <P>I am in no way trying to absolve myself of any blame. I'm just stating facts that she's admitted to. My concern is that she won't realize any of this until after we're divorced, when I'm not around to cause her unhappiness. By then, it will be too late. <P>Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe OM makes her feel good about herself. The sad thing is, I wish she felt good about herself on her own. She's a truly wonderful, beautiful woman. A person shouldn't be dependent on other people to make them feel good about themselves. I hope she realizes that someday for her own sake. The happier she is with herself, the happier she'll be able to make our daughter.<P>I'm affraid I'm in a battle that's really within her.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 04, 2001).]

Yes, SadDad<P>and the Affair 'masks' this. The A is a symptom, not the problem.<P>That is why the goal of both plan A and B is to work on yourself and fix in yourself what needs to be fixed.<P>When you stop focusing on WS and/or the affair, and start to move forward, WS is forced to stop and say, "Hey, what's going on?" Hard? Read some of my posts lately as StrongerInCali or Diva and you will find I am struggling to give up control of my situation.<P>My H just left and could I just say, 'G'bye, see you tomorrow?' No. I had to say that I wished he didn't have to leave...<P>Keep reading, keep posting, keep learning, keep changing, we will make it one little step at a time.<P>JustPlainCali

sad dad - again, we have a lot of similarities. <P>Your analysis of the end game and your wife could be correct. I'll bet it describes the root problem facing many.<P>Perhaps you can cultivate a return to counseling for general purposes, i.e., not specifically for your marriage problems. I have been trying this to no avail and I suspect I'll ultimately have to get my son and I into joint counseling to ensure we are headed in the right direction as father and son.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited July 04, 2001).]

sad & WAT -<P>Count me in on this analysis. My W's background doesn't fit your pattern, but she does have *massive* self-esteem and self-affirmation issues. I agree, I think these things are often at the root of what cause the A to begin with. And I have the same fears, that by the time my W figures any of this out, it will be long past the point of no return. Heck, this stuff it hard enough to figure out when you are thinking half-way straight, much less when you are on a mission of personal justification (i.e. the fog).<P>sad - thanks for posting that... you put into words something that had been kicking around my head for a long time. It helped clarify. Thanks.<P>Ish

sad et al....<P>I think that many of the problems we all face in here have to do with self esteem, and I totally agree with sad, in that the battle is so often within the ones we love. I know that many times I have fed into those insecurities, unwittingly and not meaning to. It wasn't until much later that I found out I contributed to those feelings of the weight issues, self esteem issues, feelings of worthiness. And I agree that many of them were started many years ago. It is sort of like crossing a mine field without a metal detector. One wrong step and...KABOOM!! I guess all we can do is keep learning what the issues are and give as much support and love as we can, in the hopes that those issues are either outgrown or cured in the end? (In the meantime, anybody got a good metal detector to loan me?)<BR>Keep the faith everyone!!<P>Trueheart

One such metal detector is the EN questionaire. However, that means the mine field must cooperate! (-:<P> -- Jeffers

cali -<P>I have stopped focusing on my W's issues and the A. I'm prepared to let her go. I have no control of the situation. Deep down, I hope she leaves for awhile so she has time to look at things without me around to be the "problem".<P>WAT -<P>I wish I had realized this when we were in counseling. I think we had just touched the surface of this when we stopped. That was my fault. I wish there was a way we could get back to counseling, but I doubt that will happen. My W was always against counseling, probably because deep down she knew she would have to take a long look at herself. It's much easier to just blame me. That's just speculation on my part.<P>Ish -<P>Sorry to hear we're in the same boat. I don't know your story, but I truly believe I will get divorced before my W realizes that I'm not the total cause of her unhappiness.<BR>I'm sure that's pretty common. I guess I'll have to leave the door open.<P>trueheart -<P>You're right. All I can do is understand the issues and try to show her how special she is. The rest is up to her.<P>To all -<P>I'm going to continue to work on myself and be the best husband I can be (while I still am a husband) and continue to be the best father I can be. I know that if we do get divorced, I will be a much better person in my next relationship because of the changes I'm making in me. I only wish my W could reap the rewards of the person I am trying to become, because she deserves it. She is truly a wonderful person, I just wish she could see that.<P>sad dad <BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 04, 2001).]

sad dad:<P>I picked up on your "she's beautiful" statement. Reinforce that every chance you get. It fits into Plan A, and starts addressing the self-esteem issue as well.<P>A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.<P>Have a happy 4th of July!<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

stl -<P>A couple of weeks ago when we had our last "D" talk, my W said she felt she was fat and unattractive. Instead of just validating her feelings about that, I tried to interject some humor. I told her "you know how shallow I am, I wouldn't have dated you if I didn't think you were "hot"." I took her by the hand and showed her a picture of herself. I said, "Don't you see how beautiful you are?". She said "No, I look fat". Probably an LB, but I didn't know how to respond. <P>sad dad

No, not an LB (in my opinion). You did good.

Sad,<BR>I don't mean to jump in on your topic and ask a question, but your thouhts really got me thinking. It occurred to me last night that a big part of my H's problem is his low self-esteem as well. He has always felt like he couldn't do anything right, and now that he has left and had an A, he (of course) is blaming everything on me and that I made him feel worthless and he couldn't possible meet my expectations of him - no matter how hard he tried. Well, in this time of Plan A, I do look back and see that I expected too much, and I am working on correcting that and showing him that I accept him the way he is. Of course the pain of the A and him dumping me gets in the way of my good plan A intentions.<P>My question to everyone is, we have been in counseling for about 4 weeks, but haven't discussed his low self-esteem yet. Her always acts cocky and like he's got it all together and most everything is my fault. For our next appointment, I'm wondering how I can bring this up without coming across like I'm trying to put the blame back on him, or that I'm trying to excuse myself from the mistakes I made. I would just like him to think about it in a different perspective - you know, like maybe I expected too much, but maybe H was leaning on my opinions of him too much, because he is very successful and has every reason to be proud of himself.<P>I don't know. Does that make sense? I guess, Sad is wishing he and W were still in couseling to work on this, and I'm saying HELP we are still in counseling - how do I bring it up?<P>thanks to all. Your wonderful, encouraging posts to each other help me tremendously!<P>------------------<BR>Faith1

faith1 - <P>The only suggestion I have is that you discuss this with your counselor ahead of time. Maybe he/she can steer the session in that direction. However, he has to be willing to admit these issues to himself. If he does, and starts to attack you for making him feel that way, just validate those feelings and DON'T get defensive. That's what I did, it was counterproductive and eventually lead to us stopping counseling. Oh, if I could only turn back time.<P>sad dad