Hi, I'm usually on the EN board. Anyway,<BR>I was watching "Dr. Phil" on "Oprah" yesterday, and he said something enlightening about affairs:<P>The BS will never get over the affair (truly get over it) until the WS KNOWS (really knows) how much damage he/she caused the BS.<P>And, the BS needs to express this damage--even if that takes crying and screaming.<P>Where is this expression/discussion of damage in Harley's plan? I can't find anything like it, in any of his writings. All I can find is "plan A" which turns into "plan B" both of which are about getting the WS to get rid of the OP, but there's nothing in either plan A nor B which allows for the expression of damage.<P>Thoughts on this?????<P>My H betrayed me a LONG time ago and Dr. Phil's show made me cry thinking about it again. So, yesterday, I explained to H what Dr. Phil said, and I said, "tell me what damage you did to me with the affair." <P>H said he damaged my self-esteem and my trust. It was good to hear HIM say what damage occurred, instead of me just trying to say it, without knowing if he was really listening or not.

Actually, I think this is mentioned on the MB site in part of the discussion on recovery. -- I just checked and it is covered in the section on Forgiveness. <P>"Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer."<P>I think a lot of this stuff has been changed recently, you might want to check it out in it's entirety (even if you've read it before).<P>Amazing that MB seems to cover ALL bases. But, LB'ing to get an expression of remorse would not be considered acceptable contrary to Dr. Phil's suggestion. To be real (and thus deserving of forgiveness) it must not be forced. Doesn't mean you can't ask, though. I need to remember this for much later. Thanks.<P> -- Jeffers<p>[This message has been edited by jeffers (edited July 04, 2001).]

Well, when I had my two full blown, uncontrollable acts of rage and frustration (both while I was drunk), it only served to set my H and I back a few steps. I DID get a heartfelt apology for the hurt from my H during the second outburst, which did help me. I suppose he really saw how much I was hurting, but he didn't know how to handle it at that level of anger and rage. Poor guy got hit a few times too - I was too drunk to remember! Yikes!

JMV<P>Jeffers is right, it is in the MB material.<P>The rule of honesty states that we must tell our spouse how we feel, how we are hurting, and how we feel they inflicted pain on us. <P>It is the way it is done that makes the difference. For the most part, the BS should strive to speak about it calmly with out screaming, crying, incriminations, laying guilt, etc.<P>However, in all honesty some things cannot be expressed so calmly. Sometimes we have to let the full force of our hurt show. It is important for the BS to tell the WS how angry and hurt they are. If this were done a few times it should not hurt the recovery. Actually it will help the recovery.<P>If on the other hand the crying and angry outbursts were used constantly, for months or years as the only way to communicate about the hurt and anger, then that is a huge love buster.<P>My counselor told me the same thing. That I had to express my anger and hurt to STL very clearly and as often as I needed to until the hurt was gone. So I told him of her advice and told him that I was going to do just that. This way he was prepared for it and knew what I was doing. So I told him in no uncertain terms. When I did he apologized and gave me support. He also spoke of he damage and pain he’d caused. But there was so much hurt in his eyes, so much pain. I then knew that he was hurting as much as I was. To know that he too was suffering from his actions and the pain he had caused was worth more to me then any verbal apology. After seeing this I could no longer focus on just my pain. It was our pain and we both had to heal. I only needed to do it a few times.<P>I admit that there were a few times, before my counselor gave me the advice, that I just lost it. The pain and anger took over and I love busted big time. But STL knew where that was coming from and forgave me. <P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 04, 2001).]

Thank God the fog is gone ... and I can see clearly now why I love zorweb so much ... she's a keeper, yep, yep, yep.<P>We had talked about anger, and I had told her to express it (but not with sharp implements in hand) ... call it consensual love busting ...<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

It's not unusual for the BS to have unexpected tantrums or rages, and the WS needs to be aware of this. Alcohol can precipitate such a spontaneous event, especially if the BS has been "holding it in." I think it's practically an emotional necessity for most individuals to vent the extra steam as it slowly builds pressure. It is soooo OK to yell and scream, but it is never OK to treat your spouse like an emotional garbage dump. <P>And no matter how you tell them, some spouses will have no clue as to the damage they inflicted upon the other, especially if they're an emotionally delayed or blocked individual. How can you possibly appreciate your spouse's feelings when you don't know/don't care about your own vulnerabilities? And when the BS is not getting the response to their needs that they think they should be getting, they're gonna TURN UP THE VOLUME until they are heard.<P>My alcoholic, "entitled" husband felt some of his primal needs were not being met in our relationship. I felt my needs weren't being met enough to meet his. Granted, we were miserable, but instead of choosing healthier approaches to problem solving, my husband chose to embark on a 2-year sex binge. Try as I might, I could not get him to fathom the pain and damage this caused me. He listened to me with a flat affect, grunted a few "uh-huh's" and "I'm sorry's," and went about life as if had Tom Sawyer white washed this huge mess from our lives. He became an actor, pretending to be concerned, but I never really felt he understood where I was coming from. His alcohol and Bohemian, alcoholic lifestyle took my place among marital priorities. At the end, I was viciously attacked for having an "emotional ocean" of unmet needs that no man could fill, and if I wanted "purity," go marry a man of the cloth. Garbage dump.<P>Shoveling out,<BR>Nell <P>------------------<BR>One faces the future with one's past.<BR>--Pearl S. Buck