Hello, everyone, and Happy 4th...<P>I am sadly realizing that my Plan A efforts have not been enough. I am not LB'ing, but I don't think I am accomplishing one of the critical components of Plan A, which is to really demonstrate tangible *change* that my W can see. I'm continuing to love and take care of her and our daughter *just like before*, which was in adherence to the MB principles, but was obviously not enough, so...<P>...I am soul searching, looking for the ENs I have not met and my flaws, but it's tough alone. Should I sit down with her and introduce her to the idea of ENs (the rest of MB can come later), and then flat out ask her which I'm not meeting? Or do I have to sort of figure this out hit-or-miss on my own?<P>Another problem: How to fulfill the "Financial" EN in an immediate, tangible way? Perhaps come up with a long term plan?<P>Also: we're planning to separate in two weeks so that she can "work on herself." Can I Plan A while separated, or do I need to try to prevent the separation? Trying to do the latter will really worsen the problem, I'm afraid, as she has convinced herself (and me) that the only way to solve our problems is if she works on them alone.<P>Please let me know what you think. Thanks so much for your support.<P>-zen<BR>

zen:<P>Happy 4th of July to you and your family as well.<P>Continue Plan A, even if she does separate. Discussing the concept of emotional needs can't hurt, but resist the temptation to preach and teach. Approach it like this: "I've been trying to work on myself to meet your emotional needs better. How am I doing? What more can I do?<P>As for separating ... if you can delay or dissuade her, all the better, but don't turn it into a LB.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL, your are just so ^*&% GOOD!<P>Suggestion taken...<P>Thanks!<P>-zen

Zen<P>I like the new name.<P>I concur with STL. Being open with her is part of the rule of honesty. It is a good place to start.<P>As for her "financial" EN, according to the MB concepts. If you meet all of the other ENs, then the financial one will become less important. My belief is that she makes the Financial one the focus of her criticisms because it’s so easy to see. It’s also lot easier to take pot shots at then the more difficult to ascertain Ens. <P>How did your wife react to your income level at the time you courted and married her? Was it such a big issue then? From what I recall, you already earn a good income. Is there any realistic hope that you can increase it to the level she wants?<P>Just some thoughts<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

zor:<P>I agree that if all other ENs are met, then the financial one is more approachable. I don't think she's going to me tell me more than I 've already heard about her ENs, so I'm going to do it on my own. I think/hope I know what they are. <P>As far as future financial success... I make a _decent_ salary plus freelance, but I really do have the potential to do much better, and want to, not just for her. I just want a chance to do so *together*. Sort of like, if she'll be a little patient, we'll get ourselves where we both want to be... OM has the advantage of having $$$ now... no waiting. But what a price!<P>It's really hard for us to talk about things right now... She REALLY wants to separate (and not, I honestly believe, just so the A can progress) so that she can clear her head and work on herself. She wants me to still be there for her and our girl, but has not and will not commit to either fixing the marriage or ending friendship with OM.<P>Is my sanity where this shifts from Plan A to Plan B?<P>Thanks a million,<BR>-zen<p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited July 04, 2001).]

<B>we're planning to separate in two weeks so that she can "work on herself."</B><BR>Doubtful. She is most likely doing it so you are not in the picture & she can meet om without interference.<P>Is she moving out or you. If you are planning on it, <B>DON’T DO IT!</B> If she is DO NOT LET HER TAKE THE KIDS!<P><B>Can I Plan A while separated, or do I need to try to prevent the separation?</B><BR>Absolutely you can & should Plan A. Also, tell her you don’t want a separation, but if she insists, don’t force anything.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Such wisdom, CHris. thanks! My H moved out because he thought we "needed some time apart". Maybe we do, but I have found out that it has given him more freedom to see OW whenever he wants. He doesn't have the guilt he had when he had to come home to me and try to explain where he had been. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Zen,<P>As I recall, you would be the one to move because the house and the children are your wife's from her previous marriage. Is that right?<P>Yes you can Plan A from afar. And it might be a good idea for you to do that for a while if you can.<P>RE: “Is my sanity where this shifts from Plan A to Plan B?”<P>Yep, Plan A and Plan B are for you as much as for anything else. <P>From all I have read, a person moves to plan B for their own sanity. So is done before all of the love for their spouse is depleted. Plan B is to allow the BS to protect what love is left and to work on themselves. It also allows the WS to experience life without the BS meeting their emotional needs. <P>My understanding is that Plan B ends when one of two things happen. The WS agrees to return and work on the marriage with out the OP in the picture. Or the BS has lost all love for the WS and divorce is now just a formality.<P>Now keep in mind that I am not a Plan A/Plan B expert. In my previous marriage I did sort of a Plan A for a very long time. Then we separated and I did sort of a Plan B. It ended in a divorce. But I was flying from the seat of my pants with no MB guidance. Intrusively it just seemed like the right thing to do. The only type of advice I got was from friends and family who repeatedly told me to “dump the bum”. His mother told me that I had to suck it up and put up with anything he dished out. Such sage advice. LOL<P>I do believe you are getting much better advice here on MB.<P>Z<P>Oh yea, meant to ask. What emotional needs of your wife have you identified at this point?<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 04, 2001).]

Chris: I am the one leaving, and it's because of the reasons zor mentioned in her above post. (Her house and daughter from previous marriage.) So actually, she says she will have either the same or less time with OM. And says OM and she have put things on hold, but she wants to keep the relationship open. She is pretty much insisting on the sep. My lawyer has ok'ed the sep, too, as long as the sep agreement is good.<P>zor: I'm deathly afraid that my Plan A is not up to snuff. I'm going to get a copy of Surviving and Affair this afternoon from a local b'store.<P>Her EN's that I've identified:<P>1) Financial is very important. She is 7 yrs older than me and today told me that she has different expectations b/c of that. (I'm 31 on Friday) She feels that "it's no one's fault," but I just might not be able to make enough for her expectations at this point in her life and my career. Like you observed earlier, though... I was not Mr. Moneybags when we met.<P>2) Recreational companionship: I need to cultivate more friendships and bring her into them. She has said before that I have all of my friends because of her, excepting a few. I sense that she wants me to be socially successful without her. Hard to do when I'm at home with our little girl all of the time!<P>3) Admiration - She gets this from me now, and I feel it's important to her. I might give her too much, in fact.<P>Actually, I know I've given too much in too many areas. I've let "her" eclipse "me." I just enjoy giving and nurturing.<P>Still trying to figure out those other ENs... Gonna read some SAA and will get back to you... I think some of hers are not on the list...<P>thank you so, so much...<P>zen

Zen,<P>For women the EN of "affection" is usually number one, and conversation and "domestic support" are usually in there. That would give you her top five. Some how I think that "sexual fulfilment" might be #5 or #6.<P>So work on those if you continue Plan A.<P>Affection is very often met with romance. Love is the feeling, romance is love in action. You might want to check out the book "1001 Ways to Be Romantic" by Gregory Godek.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

zor-<P>ok, i'm having a moment of self-doubt... I was about to type that I have affection, conversation, and domestic covered, but maybe I don't... OK, I have domestic and conversation, but affection...<P>It doesn't seem possible right now b/c of the OM. I think my EN for affection is off the scale... I don't know that she needs affection per se, but romance... hmmmm. So hard to pull of with OM lurking.<P>zor, how can me loving her make her feel "unsafe"? Last night she said she REALLY needed some space... she was overwhelmed. (work, us, etc.) I did nothing to provoke her and she just wanted me to go away. I said, ok, I'm going out for a while, and she said "Don't have to do that, don't be mad, I just am overwhelmed." I said not mad (really wasn't), just going out, and I cared about her. This last statement was met with "Stop it!" like I was making it worse. I went out, and when I got home, SHE was gone. When she got back, I asked and yes, she had been to see OM. WHY?!?!? Why does he feel safe and I don't?<P>thx,<BR>-zen

Zen,<P>RE: I have no idea how loving her can make her feel unsafe. Have you asked her directly what she means by this?<P>Could it be that right now she feels that she does not deserve your love? So when you say that you care about her she cannot handle it.<P>The only thing I can think of is that there is a side of here that still loves you. But it is not convenient to the path she thinks she wants to take. So when you express your love for her it makes her unsure of herself. Are you hovering over her right now when she is home? This could prove to be quite a challenge to her. Maybe she is saying “Please don’t love me and take care of me so I can feel ok about making this bad choice that I really hurting me. But it fits my belief that I need more money.”<P>What do you know about the OM? What kind of a person is he? He has money but is she going to have to give up a lot of herself for that money? It often happens that men with money feel that they have “bought” their woman and she needs to live by his rules. Perhaps she is struggling with the freedom and love she has with you and the money she knows she can have with him. <P>I have to tell you that this money thing really bothers me. What is the big deal? It’s the type of behavior that gives women as a whole the name of “gold diggers”. Sure earning a basic amount of income, enough to meet one’s basic needs is important. After that it’s all gravy. I know that some women feel the way your wife does but it does not speak well for them. My belief is that in a marriage each spouse contributes to the household care and income. It is a joint responsibility. Neither is more responsible for bringing in the majority of income. When a wife (or husband in some cases) chooses to stay home with the kids, then the couple makes some compromises. The stay at home spouse is contributing a lot, albeit non financially, to the family. I realize that I may be different from many women since I have always earned a good living on my own. But to beat up a spouse verbally and emotionally over such things is abusive. It is hard to watch you beat yourself up about this. <P>Z<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

zen:<P>Well, well, well. It seems the sun is intruding into the fog. Believe it or not, Plan A is having an impact. Her wanting space (because not ready to give up OM totally) is being overcome by the ENs you are meeting.<P>As for needing space with you there: sometimes a close hug speaks more volumes than any words you could utter.<P>Just as in nature, fog usually dissapates slowly once the sun begins to shine. Hopefully that is the current weather condition <smile>.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL