Hi,<BR>For the last 18 months, I have held onto to the statistics that I have read in most books about infidelity and affairs...that most affairs (long or short) eventually die a natural death....<P>And if they do not end and a divorce happens, that the marriage of the ws and the op has a greater chance of failure.<P>In my case, ws (after stopping and starting two hearings) went through with the 3rd. As far as I am concerned, the d. was final on the day of the hearing. I do not want to know when it is final...I just know in my head taht it is final...and the affair did not die a natural death before this happened...so deeply sad and devastated to say.<P>And, if this partnership in passion continues to a marriage,<BR>I have to keep telling myself that since the affair did not die a natural death,then this marriage will probabaly not go in line with what the statistics indicate.<P>I keep telling myself to stop holding onto the statistics...<BR>they haven't and probably won't hold out for me and my three chilren....that my husband and their father( who abandoned us two times) in search of himself, to be true to himself, in a haze of alcohol and passion is forging a "new Life" with not so much a hint of guilt or repentance.<P>If he ever dries out and the passion fizzles, it will be when I LEAST expect it...<P>In the mean time, I am taking this one day at a time, because the future is too frightening for me and my 3 children.<P>So, as I asked: did the statistics Pan out for you?<BR>Did the affair die a natural death? Reconciliation?<BR>Did d. come and then the affair went to a marriage?<BR>If it did, did it last? how long? Then, what?<P>Thanks, elo

Hi<BR>In my case (both times 2 years back and now again) once I found out and confronted H the A stopped (as far as I can astertain) infact immidiatley, no more phone calls nothing... also openley admitting to how silly it was that she can't hold a candle to me etc etc... go figure!<BR>I am trying to reconcile and forgive I know form before its a long slow process but I am going to try AGAIN I owe it to my children the two I have and the one that I am pregnant with<BR>Jen<BR>Africa

elo:<P>I hate to write what I am about to write, as it forces me to look at something I don't want to look at.<P>I was the OM when my W was still married to her XH. I was not married or even dating, and I am not the sort of person to ever even think about being interested in someone who is already seeing someone else, much less married. But my great weakness is my *emotional* side, and as much as I resisted the A, in the end, I gave in, and I fell in love.<P>I knew that this was bad... Really bad... I also knew that the only way I could ever really expect to have a true relationship with her was if she chose that... She would have to work on herself, decide whether or not she wanted to stay in her marriage, and if she decided to leave, well then we might could start something. I had already made the jump from "feeling" love to really loving her. She seemed to be right there with me. Her H found out and he left, never looing back for a second. I can remember the day he found out... she called me, and I said everything was going to be ok...<P>We continued our relationship and were married within six months after the divorce was final. It really was a good marriage to begin with... we really are compatible people, and when it was working, it was wonderful...<P>But you can't outrun fate, I guess... Here I am in more pain than I ever imagined I could feel. She's been in an A since April... Won't end it... We're separating in a few weeks... You can read some of my other threads if you want to hear the latest...<P>OK, I'm going to go out on a REALLY shaky limb here... People, call me on this if I'm off, please...<P>I was not the typical OM. I know *generally* what the typical OP is like, and while I am certainly to be held accountable for what happened, I don't think I brought the same things to the relationship that the typical OP brings. I gave into my heart with this woman, and I really believe that I have acted in the way you have to in order for the A to successfully turn into a marriage. I love my stepdaughter like she's my own... I've always been there for my W, and I've taken care of her and our little girl in an almost absurdly unselfish way...<P>But I guess this proves why the % of A's that make it to marriage is so small... It takes two people. And the reality is that whether I've been the typical OP or not, whether I've been the best husband in the world or not, my wife and I have still had problems, she wants me to move out, and we've ended up here again, with me in a different role.<P>I'm not trying to say I'm perfect and she's to blame. I just believe that this would not be happening if we had ended our A, then recoupled later. Marriages that start as A's have all sorts of pitfalls working against them... For example, my wife still resents me for breaking up her marriage. Of course, she also takes responsibility, but the feelings are still thete, even though at the time, she said she wanted to be married to me more than anything in the world. Children can sometimes be a problem, but as I've said, not in our case. In fact, my relationship with my step-daughter is one of the few things giving my W pause these days.<P>So take it from an XOM who went to being an H with the WS, to now feeling the agony of being the BS with the possibility of being an XH in a year or so. It's really tough. And like I said, ours has/had more of a chance than most.<P>Last few things: It really sucks now trying to use any kind of argument against the current OM with her. After all, if I invalidate him, don't I invalidate myself (as the OM a few years ago), and thus invalidate the whole marriage? Well, no, I don't think so. He can't hold a wet match to me, but... grrrrrr.<P>We're not treating the sep as final... We're both leaving the opportunity open to work things out later after she takes this time to work on herself, as she says she wants to do. In a way, we're kind of taking the time that we should have taken to begin with, but the problem is the OM. Won't her interfere with her process? This could be a cycle we're seeing...<P>Anyway, she'll NEVER find anybody as damn good as I was for her. I'll willing to give her another chance if she wants to truly partner and grow for the rest of our lives. If not, LIFE GOES ON!<P>Sorry this was so long... elo, focus on yourself. I know that's a dead horse, but you know what? It works. No matter what happens.<P>Take care,<BR>-zen

Elo,<P>I hope it's okay I jump on your post/band wagon. I too am very interested in the responses to this inquiry.<P>Gentle nudge to the TOP.<P>Jo

Thought I would jump in because my situation was kind of wierd.<P>W's A went on two months, then we seperated and the A went on for two more months. Then W was "torn" several weeks and sat on the fence. I was attempting to do a plan A the entire time(some slip ups for sure, but for the most part, I wanted to make sure she knew she could come back if A ended.) Well, I wore out and saw a lawyer. On the day that I signed D papers, my W also had made an appointment to sign. Turns out she ended the A on the same day (without my knowledge--she thought it had ended the marriage by that time too.) We are about 8 months into recovery and getting better all the time--W has been awesome, no contact, we went to counseling, remorse, the whole beutiful bit. Anyway, would you say this A ended a "natural death"? I would say my plan A made reconcilliation (sp?) possible, but it is also clear that me signing D papers sent about as clear a message as possible too...I will no longer be with you if this continues. I didn't sign the papers lightly, but I had had it and was ready to move on. At that point it seemed a light went on for W, and she has been wonderful since. "natural death" or "natural death with a big push" we are going to make it. Who cares if it is "natural" or not, as long as both people are truly committed to recovery after it is over?

2nd gentle nudge to the TOP.<P>Jo

elo:<P>Yes, my wife's affair was within the "statistical" averages.<P>The affair died within one year after discovery by me. We reconciled. It's been three years since.

My situation went against the statistics. My exH married the OW one month after divorce was final. I assume they are both very happy.<P>My dad left my mom to marry the OW as soon as the divorce was final. They were together about 10 years until OW's death from an alcohol-induced cerebral blood clot.<BR>

My wife's affair continued secretly for several months after she confessed to me, then died.<P>Basically, he just wanted to fool around and she wanted more. His indecision became a big LB, and along with my Plan A, helped end the affair.<P>Steve

Hello all,<BR>Thanks for all the responses. From what I read, I counted that more affairs died a natural a death or died a natural death with help...<P>It does show that the experts are probably right in their statistics....<P>From my experience, it just didn't happen...the most difficult position for me to assume and remain there is --that even if marriage occurs with my ws and ow, is to say to myself...Elo, get to the mindset that you don't want ws back...he has to many problems to make any significant changes and he won't change...<P>Of course, the reason this position is SO difficult for me to assume is because I still deeply love my H and I want to reconcile with him...I want my family and I want my children to have their father's daily nurturing...<P>If my H had left, sober and with no affair, I believe my mindset could be different...but there were and still are too many factors(even in the light of a d.) that point to how unstable the affair is..and how unstable the marriage could be if it took place...ow's fourth...<P>Will I ever look good and safe enough for him to come back to? ONly time will tell. I hate to admit this....but if I don't take the position that he will never come back, I will probably let myself sit home and wait for it to happen..So, with some nudging from others who know how extremely difficult it is to open the mind of a ws who is in the grips of a "passion play", I know it is in my best interest to look forward...maybe even play the field?<P><BR>I'll be back later with specific facts from the affair books I read. <P>Thanks for all the "chiming" ends from all the different people whose "roles" were many...and explained such...<P>Later, elo<BR>

I will be divorced 1.5 yrs at end of this month. Discovery was in May 99. X married om 10 months after our divorce, so they have been married about 7 months now. It looks like they are doing okay, bbut I don't really care.

elo, I was like zen, OW in H's 1st marriage. They were only married a short time, though they produced a child, and there had been frequent separations. I still feel guilty about this, though H doesn't hold the break-up of his 1st marriage against me. I have a lot of guilt toward his wife, especially after going through this from her side! I don't think there's a typical, "bad" OP. I know my H's OW thinks my H is the love of her life (he's the same age as her estranged alcoholic father, hmmm, where's Freud when we need him...)<P>My H is an active alcoholic addict. He continued to drink and use drugs for the 1st 8 yrs of our relationship until I moved out for good, I thought. He got clean and sober and 2 yrs later we married (in other words, we got back together, but there was no affair at that time).<P>He was sober almost 10 years when he started drinking again and having a secret affair with a much younger also married woman (though I think from what I've heard since that it probably started before she was even married and still a teenager, longer than the statistical 2 years). They have been living together for the past 7 months. <P>His life has gone steadily downhill during this time, but he rationalizes it by saying he doesn't care about money and property (of course it's easy to say when you're living rent-free in your parent's trailer at the beach with large sums of money from your parents as well as spousal support from me), he has no interest in our business, and he doesn't want to work again (he and OW are both unemployed). <P>I agree with you that the alcohol totally changes things because there's the "fog" of alcohol and drugs as well as the affair "fog." My H currently has no interest in sobriety, in fact, he told his son he plans to drink himself to death. So much for following your heart and finding yourself. I guess things aren't so much better on the other side, but maybe seem better than returning to the "black widow" (as he's described me when he isn't using words I can't write here).<P>I also have trouble letting go of the idea that IF he got sober, things MIGHT be different. He was a very different person sober. I lived with him sober, as I said, for almost 10 years.<P>I am filing for divorce because of our jointly owned business. I currently have a restraining order to keep him away. I am attending Al-Anon, working on detachment, and trying to focus on me for a change. I don't know what the future holds, but I have to live in current reality not in the past or in hopes for the future. <P>Sorry this is so long. I wish you luck. I'm in the same boat and have no advice other than what you've already gotten to take care of yourself.

elo:<P>I will address this from both sides (having been the BS twice and the WS once).<P>In my case the A died a natural death because at a fundamental level what I was doing/had done was eating away inside me. I had begun, mentally, to clear the fog. D-day hastened the weather change. Dr. Harley and MB and its fabulous members provided the final impetus to full recovery.<P>As the BS, both ended in divorce. In neither case have my exWs married their OM. From all indications based on direct or indirect contact, both came to realize what they lost was not worth what they ended up with. I would point out that in the case of both exWs, I had not heard of MB or Dr. Harley. Would things have turned out differently? Probably not: both of them had chemical dependency issues and depression (bipolar) to deal with and fully denied (both of them to this day).<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

My situation did not go by the statistics, either. My ex-H had an affair after 17 years of marriage. OW has been married twice before, and was not legally divorced from her second H when she started the affair with my H. The affair was only 4-5 months old when he walked out on our marriage. It took him 2.5 years to settle our divorce. He married her 4 months after our divorce was final. They have now been married for almost 2 years. I do not know how happy it is or isn't. But if her track record is any indication, she will dump him eventually.

Hello,<BR>Thanks for all the replys. All food for thought.<P>Yes, live in current reality...so very hard to do...so easy to think of the past and normal to think ahead...wondering...<P><BR>What a ws loses is worth so much more than what they settle for in an op......so many factors in the equation that could affect if they come to realize this...if ever...depending on perhaps, as in my case, alcohol and personality disorder...<P>Yes, it is not easy to let go of the hope that they will come to their senses, out of the fog, crash, or whatever you want to call it....even if it happens after a divorce...<P>I keep telling myself not to hope and to program myself that there is no future together...under any scenerio...<P>keep on talking to me...this thread is theraputic...<BR>and full of wisdom...<P>thanks, elo<BR>

elo,<BR><<What a ws loses is worth so much more than what they settle for in an op......so many factors in the equation that could affect if they come to realize this...if ever...depending on perhaps, as in my case, alcohol and personality disorder...>><P>I have to agree in my case. My H has lost family, friends, business, reputation, respect, most everything of value except the OW and his first love, alcohol...<P><<Yes, it is not easy to let go of the hope that they will come to their senses, out of the fog, crash, or whatever you want to call it....even if it happens after a divorce...>><P>I keep secretly harboring the same fantasy.<P><<I keep telling myself not to hope and to program myself that there is no future together...under any scenerio...>><P>I tell myself the same thing, but so far, I haven't really bought it.<P><<keep on talking to me...this thread is theraputic...>><BR>and full of wisdom...<P>Yeah, I agree.<P><p>[This message has been edited by LetSTry (edited July 06, 2001).]

i don' t want to flame you but ask you something which may be painful fro you to answer.<P>I really had a tough time dealing with the fact that some guy who knew me could have so little regard for me as to have an EMA with my wife. I am still very angry and though I don't think about it too much, I have not forgiven him and hope that someday the same will happen to him, so that he knows what it feels what he (and my W) has done to me. <P>How is this with you? Does this make you think back about the original husband? Does it make you think you deserve it? <P>Remember I am not flaming you. You are not my OM. I am just curious.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zen:<BR><B>elo:<P>I hate to write what I am about to write, as it forces me to look at something I don't want to look at.<P>I was the OM when my W was still married to her XH. I was not married or even dating, and I am not the sort of person to ever even think about being interested in someone who is already seeing someone else, much less married. But my great weakness is my *emotional* side, and as much as I resisted the A, in the end, I gave in, and I fell in love.<P>I knew that this was bad... Really bad... I also knew that the only way I could ever really expect to have a true relationship with her was if she chose that... She would have to work on herself, decide whether or not she wanted to stay in her marriage, and if she decided to leave, well then we might could start something. I had already made the jump from "feeling" love to really loving her. She seemed to be right there with me. Her H found out and he left, never looing back for a second. I can remember the day he found out... she called me, and I said everything was going to be ok...<P>We continued our relationship and were married within six months after the divorce was final. It really was a good marriage to begin with... we really are compatible people, and when it was working, it was wonderful...<P>But you can't outrun fate, I guess... Here I am in more pain than I ever imagined I could feel. She's been in an A since April... Won't end it... We're separating in a few weeks... You can read some of my other threads if you want to hear the latest...<P>OK, I'm going to go out on a REALLY shaky limb here... People, call me on this if I'm off, please...<P>I was not the typical OM. I know *generally* what the typical OP is like, and while I am certainly to be held accountable for what happened, I don't think I brought the same things to the relationship that the typical OP brings. I gave into my heart with this woman, and I really believe that I have acted in the way you have to in order for the A to successfully turn into a marriage. I love my stepdaughter like she's my own... I've always been there for my W, and I've taken care of her and our little girl in an almost absurdly unselfish way...<P>But I guess this proves why the % of A's that make it to marriage is so small... It takes two people. And the reality is that whether I've been the typical OP or not, whether I've been the best husband in the world or not, my wife and I have still had problems, she wants me to move out, and we've ended up here again, with me in a different role.<P>I'm not trying to say I'm perfect and she's to blame. I just believe that this would not be happening if we had ended our A, then recoupled later. Marriages that start as A's have all sorts of pitfalls working against them... For example, my wife still resents me for breaking up her marriage. Of course, she also takes responsibility, but the feelings are still thete, even though at the time, she said she wanted to be married to me more than anything in the world. Children can sometimes be a problem, but as I've said, not in our case. In fact, my relationship with my step-daughter is one of the few things giving my W pause these days.<P>So take it from an XOM who went to being an H with the WS, to now feeling the agony of being the BS with the possibility of being an XH in a year or so. It's really tough. And like I said, ours has/had more of a chance than most.<P>Last few things: It really sucks now trying to use any kind of argument against the current OM with her. After all, if I invalidate him, don't I invalidate myself (as the OM a few years ago), and thus invalidate the whole marriage? Well, no, I don't think so. He can't hold a wet match to me, but... grrrrrr.<P>We're not treating the sep as final... We're both leaving the opportunity open to work things out later after she takes this time to work on herself, as she says she wants to do. In a way, we're kind of taking the time that we should have taken to begin with, but the problem is the OM. Won't her interfere with her process? This could be a cycle we're seeing...<P>Anyway, she'll NEVER find anybody as damn good as I was for her. I'll willing to give her another chance if she wants to truly partner and grow for the rest of our lives. If not, LIFE GOES ON!<P>Sorry this was so long... elo, focus on yourself. I know that's a dead horse, but you know what? It works. No matter what happens.<P>Take care,<BR>-zen</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Grrrrrr! (like the name... I said that same word a few posts ago)<P>Absolutely I feel like I'm getting what I deserve. I have to say that this whole process has resulted in massive growth and understanding for me personally, but the price has been extreme pain, both then and now.<P>You know, the book Surviving An Affair has a good intro to it that describes what one OM was thinking. I really did have major ethical problems with the A, but I could not muster the strength to stop it. There were the usual suspects lurking... stories of how he was not there for her, my egotistical belief that I was really "helping" her, etc.. And love, plain and simple. Not just "romantic love", but also the progression to real love. It happens. My W was truly at the lowest point of her life. Sometimes she has said that she would have died if not for me.<P>Reconciliation was not an option to her XH. The second he found out, it was over, done. When it was happening, I never got the impression that my W tried to make him stay. She says now that she did try and that I never knew about it. As emotionally vulnerable as my W was at that point, there would have been little chance for her to try to convince him. He's very black and white and to this day still proves himself to be incapable of producing many emotions besides anger towards her.<P>He and I get along actually better than he and my W. Sometimes I feel like he is almost trying to empathize with me. He knows that I take very good care of his little girl but do not try to replace him. It's still not easy to be around him, though. I sometimes wish so much that we could sit down over a beer and talk... I'd want to apologize to him and somehow try to make sense of things. Who knows? It may happen one day...<P>There are all sorts of OM, I guess. You could call me the reluctant one, initially, who became one that really wanted a *true* relationship with the W. The way things are now, I still don't think we've had it. We might if we separate and eventually get back together, but our marriage has certainly been tainted by our deeds.<P>I was never one of those OM who rail against the husband. I just tried not to think about him, and in reality, that's just as bad. I know that I helped to hurt him, and for that I will be sorry forever.<P>-zen