I'm back again.....I found out in October that my wife was starting an affair with an old boyfriend of hers. We have been together for just over 5 years and that includes 2 1/2 years of marriage. As a recap, I found out by reading her emails between the two of them and immediately confronted both of them about this. He replied via email that he was so sorry and it would stop immediately. I know people can have friends of the opposite sex but this was definitely more than friendship. We made up after a week or so of fighting over this. She exclaimed that she was not going to cut off contact with him and that they would be friends and nothing more. Then in December I saw another email where she wrote to him saying that she wanted to see him and that she missed his sexy voice, etc, etc. I didn't say anything at all - she doesn't know that I saw that email. I've been monitoring her email everyday since then and nothing has been sent or received (shame on me, right?!?) but it's become obvious that they talk over the phone and for all I know she still sees him. I know they talk because I have seen his name and number come up on the caller ID at home on a couple of occasions. She talked to him on the phone the other night WHILE I WAS THERE!! and I got really upset. She got off the phone with him and proceeded to attempt to make up with me telling me the usual stuff (I love you, I wouldn't do anything to hurt you, etc, etc). So, it seems that this thing will not go away for some reason. I know this is long, but bear with me.....last night she got upset with me because we ran into my best friends niece at the store and she claimed that THAT run in brought back resentment that she had for me because when we first started dating I danced a few dances with his niece and she just can't let it go. Heck, she can't let anything go. So, I listened to her preach to me till 1 am telling me how she get's treated second best as compared to my previous girlfriends and how I got to dance with his niece, yet she can't even talk on the phone to this guy without me getting upset. I am at a total loss of words, she continues to harbor every wrong, no matter how big or small I have done against her and puke it back up just to make me feel bad. So, now what??

TXfiddler,<P>Another Texan here, and a woman too. I might be able to explain to you why the complaints go on for so long.....although I don't know why incidents that seem innocent to you may set her off.<P>But I'll warn you now that this letter does get a little rough on you at the end. I hope you'll accept that this is being said with best of intentions. I'm only pointing out what I see.<P>The endless griping has to do with hormones and adreneline.<P>With men, when something upsets you, you get a rush of adreneline that your body uses up quickly. You get angry, and then you can let it drop. It's over with.<P>Not so with women. <BR>First of all, it takes a lot more to set women off than it does men. It has to either build up, or be very intense. [Were there other things going on before-hand which could have led up to this problem?]<BR>Second, we don't respond to the adreneline rush in the same way ---- it stays with us and lingers on. Our adreneline rushes last longer. That's why we can stay fixated on a topic for so long if it's gotten a strong reaction out of us.<P>It's the difference in our natural body chemistry.<P>It's what allows men to be the hunters and defenders with quick reactions. And what allows women to take the children and run --- to outlast their opponents so that the line can survive.<P>===============<P>So ---- chances are that either this *really* bothers her --- and you should pay serious attention to it. Or you were doing a lot of little things over the past few days and the niece was just the last straw on the camel's back.<P>How much Plan A'ing are you doing? <BR>Have you and your wife done the Emotional Needs Questionaire? That might provide a lot of insight.<P>If you want to save your marriage, you're going to have to make a serious committment to change YOUR ways. You don't control her ---- you control yourself.<P><BR>You're monitoring her e-mail daily.<BR>You monitor the caller ID.<BR>You are suspicious that she's still seeing him.<BR>You get upset with her (LoveBusting).....forcing her to do what she may perceive as begging with you.<P>Face it TX, your wife had the affair partly because of YOUR behavior. It's not just her. And it sounds like this has been building up for a long long time.<P>Do you flirt with your wife in public? Or do you like to flirt with other women?<BR>Do you take your wife out dancing? Do you dance only with her? Or do you plop her down and grab up another woman sometimes? If you are grabbing another woman, do you make sure that your wife has another man to dance with? Do you put her in a pressure situation when you ask if you can dance with another woman?<P>TX, you've got some work that you need to do on yourself. You need to learn what Needs your wife has that you are not meeting and teach yourself how to meet those Needs.<P>Or, was your wife a codependent?<P>Either way, it's clear that you are not meeting your wife's needs. You've got some work to do....<P>~Amy

Hi Out of the Fog,<P>Ouch!!! (just kidding) Your points are well taken and I appreciate your feedback on my dilemna. A few years ago, during our monthly arguments I did realize that I wasn't meeting her needs. She wanted constant love notes, post-its, affection, you name it. It's not that I had a problem with that, I enjoy doing those things for my wife - but being that I don't really need those to survive a relationship it didn't cross my mind until that moment that her needs were valid. She always told me from the beginning that she was extremely high maintenance. That was the first thing she told me when we were talking. So I had made it a point to do those things as much as possible to make her feel needed and loved. I always trusted her, even when she went out on the weekends with her girl friends and even when she had guy friends (most of them have moved away so she doesn't see them much anymore). But things changed when she became pregnant, that was nearly 4 years ago. My relationship turned in to a roller coaster ride, not knowing that at 5pm when I came home if she was going to like me or hate me. I've been physically attacked by her, verbally abused, she hates all my family and she feels that if we divorce she won't resent me anymore. Last night she told me our marriage was a joke. Mind you, a couple days ago she was on a high and I was the best thing since sliced bread. But just about every month we hit a road block and by the time I come home she has been dwelling on our relationship from the beginning and is ready to do me in. I've been walking on eggshells for about 3 years now and I just go with the flow. But I still am affectionate towards her - I come in and kiss her when I get home, call her during the day just to say 'hi' and 'I love you', write her little emails and love notes and paste them to the mirrors and such. I never monitored her stuff until I found out about the affair. I guess I'm still in the hurting phase and too suspicious of her, no - I do not trust her completely. That was the only time I ever danced with another lady, and my wife knew that I've known her since she was a baby. They were like family to me. But she sees me once again as being a monster and a horrible husband. I guarantee that next week we will be on the fun part of hte roller coaster and I'll be waiting for the dive again.

txfiddler - yes, by all means, consider Amy's points, then consider others. First, some of your issues.<P>No shame on you for monitoring her e-mail. The only reason you didn't find much was because she stopped using that mode of communication. ANYTIME a spouse hides communication with "just friends" it's violating the principle of honesty that should exist in a marriage. Shame on her. You have no reason to trust her.<P>Now for a few of Amy's well intentioned points. (Amy, I'll warn you now that this letter does get a little rough on you at the end. I hope you'll accept that this is being said with best of intentions. I'm only pointing out what I see.)<P>"You are suspicious that she's still seeing him."<P>Of course you are. This is an affair, plain and simple.<P>"Face it TX, your wife had the affair partly because of YOUR behavior."<P>ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Your wife is having an affair because she became selfish and didn't know how to cope with the marriage problems.<P>Yes, you are partly responsible for creating the environment for the affair to occur, but having the affair was TOTALLY her decision.<P>"You need to learn what Needs your wife has that you are not meeting and teach yourself how to meet those Needs."<P>About the only thing of value that Amy offers.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited July 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by txfiddler:<BR><B>A few years ago, during our monthly arguments <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Monthly? And after a pregnancy? [Are you thinking in the direction of Andrea here?] Actually, there is something related to this monthly occurance---- dysthymic disorder.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-md04.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-md04.html</A> <P>I'm not a Dr., just someone who has pretty much gone through something similiar to your wife, has been desperately looking for some answers, have gotten very frustrated in the process, but am now regaining control of my life now that I am getting the help that I need. [I'm suspecting that mine began after a some stressing life-changing events coupled with a miscarriage.]<P>The dysthymic disorder sounds to me like a mild form depression that comes and goes, sometimes on a monthly cycle. My Dr. has told me that anti-depressant drugs don't always work as well for women during that time of the month, possibly due to hormone fluctuations (the Drs. aren't even sure). Maybe our natural serotonins and other 'good feeling' hormones don't work as well during that time of the month too? <P>Whatever it is that's causing it, the good news is that it is usually treatable with anti-depressant medication.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>being that I don't really need those to survive a relationship it didn't cross my mind until that moment that her needs were valid. She always told me from the beginning that she was extremely high maintenance. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your not a plant from my husband's attorney? Because this sounds VERY familiar....(scary).<P>I too told my husband exactly what it was that I needed. Listen to her and take what she says seriously. It sounds to me like the two of you need to do a lot more talking. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>But things changed when she became pregnant, that was nearly 4 years ago. My relationship turned in to a roller coaster ride, not knowing that at 5pm when I came home if she was going to like me or hate me. I've been physically attacked by her, verbally abused, she hates all my family and she feels that if we divorce she won't resent me anymore. Last night she told me our marriage was a joke. Mind you, a couple days ago she was on a high and I was the best thing since sliced bread. But just about every month we hit a road block and by the time I come home she has been dwelling on our relationship from the beginning and is ready to do me in. I've been walking on eggshells for about 3 years now and I just go with the flow. But I still am affectionate towards her - I come in and kiss her when I get home, call her during the day just to say 'hi' and 'I love you', write her little emails and love notes and paste them to the mirrors and such. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>A kiss, hi, love u, LITTLE e-mails, notes ------ <P>How much EMOTION can you convey in those? Not much. Where's the real you? <P>Do you share your dreams with her? Do you ask her about her day --- AND take a real interest in it (follow up questions, etc.)? <P>Have you asked her about her dreams? --- Taken them seriously?<P>Did she work before the kid(s) were born? What about now? What do you do to help out around the house?<P>Back over to the depression. The first thing you'll need to do (after talking to your wife about it) is to get her in to see a regular MD. Call ahead and tell the scheduling nurse what you are coming in about --- ask for extra time to talk to the Dr. If possible, talk to the Dr. about it before hand....see what information he'll want you to bring in.<P>I took a complete medical history summary, list of symptoms, and a summary of my families' histories going back to my grandparents (things like cancer, female illnesses, and any behavior which might could be interpreted as being related in some way). See if you can go in to see the Dr. with her.<P>We talked, and then he ran some blood tests --- checking thyroid and cortisol levels. Tumors can cause depression-like symptoms with the hormones that they put out or the imbalances that they can cause.<P>If a medical cause is ruled out, then it'll be time to see a Dr. about medication (anti-depressants). She may have to try several different kinds until she finds something that works. And it'll be rough on you too because her behavior will be jumping around. But you can provide some very important feedback about how well a drug is working. Dosage during the month may have to be varied as well (mine does, to counter the mood swings). And you may even have to change Drs. in order to find someone who will treat your wife the way she needs to be treated (I had to make that change too).<P>But getting on the right medication is only the start. After that, the two of you will need to get into counselling....and she may have to go to separate counselling.<P>In the meantime, Plan A your butt off.<P>~Amy<P>PS: Wanna tell my stbxH that you know what he's going through, but that his wife is back now and she wants him to leave the OW and come home? ----- It can begin to wear on you. Don't let it go as far as mine did. You really can't understand real depression unless you've been there. Your wife really is helpless to help herself with this problem --- and it's not a character flaw, nor a lack of will, nor her fault.

txfiddler<P>I concur with "out of the fog"'s last post. From your description you wife does seem to have a cyclic depression problem. If that is the case then she is in a lot of mental pain and needs all the love and help she can get. Please love her enough to get her evaluated.<P>If on the other hand it is determined that she does not have such a problem, then she is way out of line in much of her antics. <P>WAT gave you good advice to.<P>If you have not read the material on this site and the book Surviving an Affair please do so. They can help you very much.<P>As for the snooping. You will find that the MB concepts do not allow for privacy in a marriage. The idea is that total, radical honesty is the only acceptable approach to these things. You have the right to know what your wife is doing. So do not apologize for feel bad for snooping. Once you have the information you need your desire to snoop with lesson or disappear. Just be careful of yourself. Be prepared to handle, with out love busting anything you find.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Hello txfiddler,<P>You have a right to know the truth and if the only way you are going to get to the truth is by checking the phone bills and the e-mails and the caller ID, then so be it. I support you and I don't think you should feel ashamed. The reason why is because I would probably do the same thing. It is an insult to be continuously lied to by someone you need to trust. Then when you call them on it, they turn around and blame you for ancient mistakes instead of taking responsibility for their own stuff. <P>We lie because we can't face truth about ourselves. If we can just be honest with ourselves and pinpoint our weaknesses: angry, insecure, fearful, cheating, lying, stealing, or whatever we are, then we can be helped by God and others. If we were honest, then at least we can understand ourselves better and communicate exactly what we need more clearly.<P>I disagree that your wife had an affair because of you. It was her choice to sneak behind your back and cross the line. Sure, you have a part to play but if she couldn't be honest with you about what she needed, you weren't in a position to try to meet her needs. It's not all your fault.<P>Maybe you guys can agree to forgive the past. Take her out to dinner or somewhere that you both enjoy going. Sit her down and tell her what you know about the e-mail and the caller ID so she can stop making a fool of herself by continuously sneaking and lying. Forgive each other. Wipe the slate clean and start fresh from there. Bringing up past mistakes is not the way to go, regardless. Unforgiveness poisons marriages.<P>

Well, as I said earlier it wouldn't take long for her to be back on cloud nine again. She is acting as if there is nothing wrong and we got along great last night. I do believe ya'lls opinions are correct about the cheating thing. How can I trust her completely when she still talks to this man?? How do I know what they are talking about? Who knows!! Instead of emails, she has chosen a safer way to keep a connection with this guy by talking to him on the phone.....and hopefully she isn't seeing him behind my back. I'm sure that the things she holds against me played some part in some fashion, but those things are years old!! This affair stuff started 9 months ago (as far as I know). I have been suspicious of her once before, but that's a whole other story and involves another guy. I'm going to counseling alone...I should get in next week and at least I can get this off my chest and maybe learn some ways to deal with this in the best way possible.

You know what. I don't think it matters if she is seeing the guy or not. She is expending at least emotional energy outside of the marriage.<P>Is she using a cell phone? If not, you can tap the phone. Radio Shack sells a device that hooks between the phone and a tape recorder. <P>But if you did this you'd better be ready to handle anything.<P>I'm not sure that such snooping is even needed right now. Just the phone calls along are enough and out of hand.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

ditto Z<P>You may be doing yourself more harm than good by obsessing about exactly what she's doing.<P>Be careful about recording the phone calls. This is illegal in some US states - just ask Linda Tripp.<P>WAT

tx:<P>The importance of honesty cannot be understated. She must earn your trust back over time. As long as the contact and deceit continue, that cannot occur. On your part, you must provide a place of safety for her to tell the truth: no recriminations, no anger ... the rules of protection and care apply here within the scope of the rule of honesty.<P>If you do discuss it in a direct, honest fashion, it should be in the context of "I" and not "you". This makes it non-accusatory and reflects your feelings, which is legitimate within the rule of honesty: "I have concerns about trust." or "It hurts me deeply when it appears that you are maintaining contact." Follow this type of approach with "How can I work with you to overcome this?" This way, you have minimized the LB potential, yet conveyed your feelings, and appealed to her for her aid.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by txfiddler:<BR><B>I'm sure that the things she holds against me played some part in some fashion, but those things are years old!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My 0.02 worth...<P>I heard this same stuff. It seemed that every time I turned around, or even tried to express concern about the relationship, I heard a litany of GREAT MISTAKES that I had made over the course of 14 years. Almost everything she ranted about was trivial, especially in comparison with what she was doing at the time. For example, I glared at one of her coworkers 5 years prior at a Christmas party because she had complained about his political manuevers for years. Jeez. Shook his hand kinda hard. A totally terrible thing to do. Heinous. Justifies everything!<P>There actually is a clinical term for this: cognitive dissonance. You might look it up. It's a way to understand why you hear this great litany of errors on your part, years, even decades, old that seemed either trivial or societally expected of you (I'm another Southern male - I thought I was SUPPOSED to protect her!).<P>The ONLY way you get through this is to take a 10,000 foot view of what she is doing. She will need your help when she confronts her actions.<P>Bama

By all means tap the phone. I did and found out what was going on, how often and how she felt about OM. On the down side it does hurt when you hear yor WS tell another man she loves him. Tell her friend the OM is not jealous of you(BS). That she thinks things will jell with OM if she divorces me. However, I personally would rather have my heart broken by the truth than dishonesty. I got so tired of her lies and stories. I knew it was going on and lacked the proof I needed to tie it all together. I also recommend getting an itemized copy of her cell phone bill. This is a excellent way to determine who the OP is. Good luck

I think it is great that you are seeing a counselor. We learn so much about ourselves in the tough times. Hang in there! My prayers are with you tonight.