I would like for (present and former) WS's to respond. Why does your happiness come before your own children? That is the one thing I do not understand. How can one be so self-centered and completely forget their children? Marriages go thru good and bad times. Doesn't the WS spouse think there are times when W/H wanted to search for their own happiness, but instead choose to stick out for the sake of the children! Grow Up!! Children deserve to grow up in a two parent home. If you're going thru bad times, why don't you speak to your spouse, before turing to that other person you THINK understands you. For WH, don't forget your W gave birth to your children, they deserve RESPECT. It burns me when you put OW up on a pedalstool, and treat your W (the mother of your children) with such disgrace. Like they say, THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR CHILDREN IS TO LOVE THEIR MOTHER. I know not all men are like that, but for the ones who are SHAME ON YOU. Yes, I'm a BS. I just needed to vent.

I agree with your post 100%. Now my husband wants the OW to meet my children. She is supposed to be such a wonderful adulteress!!

And don't forget that there are women out there who put their needs before their children's too.<P>Women should also show respect to the father of their children and to their children.<P>Men and women have affairs about equally as often.<P>I don't get it either.<P>I'm a woman but I deal daily with my stepchildren who are devastated from their mother walking out on them and their father for another man.<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

SiS:<P>I am answering this having observed both sides of the equation, as a BS (twice) and as an exWS (zorweb, above is my W).<P>It comes down to the fog factor: essentially self-gratification and fulfillment of immediate need.<P>While in that state, a WS is capable of all manner of illogical conduct (please don't try to apply the normal rules of logic here, it will only make your head spin and heart hurt).<P>What you will find here are the techniques to help you reach into that fog in a non-intrusive, loving way, and hopefully snap them out of it. Beyond their awakening, it is the task of both of you to commit fully to marital recovery. Without that 100-percent commitment, your chance of failure is exceedingly high. With that commitment, and the MB principles, you will not only increase your chances of recovering, that which you recover will be far better than that which you have known.<P>[By the way, don't apologize for venting ... it is one of the reasons for this forum. Far, far better that you do it here and not to your WS.]<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 05, 2001).]

Let me chime in for step-father's rights. My step-daughter and I have developed a bond stronger than many true-parent child relationships. When my W and I separate, I'm afraid that it's going to absolutely tear her up. First her father and mother divorce, and then here I come and make things okay again (I know it will never be the same; I don't have any illusions about me "replacing" him, but I have given her more love and nurturing than anyone in her life, and she's thriving), and now she's going to have to go through it all over again.<P>I just can't understand the whole thing either. I can't see the elevation of one's own needs/desires above the child's or step-child's.<P>-zen

Zorweb and STL:<P>You're correct, it is not just men. Double shame on them (mothers) because they birth these children who deserve a better role model. I understand the "fog", but com'on for heaven's sake they really can't see or understand the destruction they are creating by thinking of their own self-centered happiness. For example, while my H was courting his lover he was buying new clothes on a weekly basis while my kids had outgrown and torn their clothes. Not once did he ever notice that they badly needed clothes or that they needed haircuts. He was just so busy making himself look good. In this past year, he was too busy w/ OW to spend quality time with his kids, found it easier to buy them stuff. AAAAHHHGG!!!!!! My blood just boils when I think about it. In the final days before I caught him with OW, I begged and pleaded with him to spend time with our children. I kept telling him to stop putting us on the back burner, he told me to stop nagging. NOW, all he can say is that the kids are his life. Well too bad buddy!!!!<BR>4 mos. later, I'm still in a very angry stage which I know is not SAA concept. I've said to him that divorce will have a negative impact on our children if not now later. His response is "They'll be fine". What could he possibly be thinking?

SiS:<P>What could he possibly be thinking? Nothing. Fog is vaporous.<P>My exW did not think of her marriage or children, either. Not until it was much, much too late. That was before I knew about MB and Harley's methods. So there is hope for you and your family.<P>Stay the course, Plan A.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

SiS -<BR>I'm aftershock - I have felt exactly the same way. I ask the same questions. I just can't understand why spouses do this to each other. One day you are standing at the alter professing your undying love, and the next they are telling someone else how much they love them - it is sickening.<P>And through it all, they lie, and you think your marriage is is doing fine (or a little voice is telling you something is wrong - and you don't know how to confront it). It is one of the most horrible situations on earth (other than a dead body in front of you). You feel so hurt, emotional shock, intense pain in the world, feel like you are breaking apart, your insides being ripped out - and they are feeling elated - somewhere high in the clouds - at your expense - and the kids expense. And you are right, how can they hurt their kids, and their wife. And it does, it does affect the children.<P>That's my piece for now. I am not in an emotional state.<P>I don't know where your marriage is at - my WS does not desire SF, and gives me little heartfelt affection. His EA was from Feb-June 2000, d-day was June 9-12, & 14 (caught him on instant messenger - RED handed). 13 year marriage at that time, I thought we'd never have any problems - boy was I wrong - thought he'd never cheat on me - boy was I wrong. I still hurt to this day. Every little life pain, life hurt, from the neighbors thinking my kid is in the wrong - to whatever - brings pain - I feel it day and night. It is horrible.<P>

SiS,<P> I am in total agreement with you. I have a step daughter. I took in her father when his parents kicked him out of thier house. I took my W and Him to the prenatial classes and was there at her birth. He split about 4 months after she was born. I have been the only father that she knows. My W split our kids up for her happiness. My inlaws have posioned that girl and told her that I was not her father and that I don't love her. I have only seen my stpedaughter twice since Jan. I have asked my W that same question from the start. She is from a divorced family. Her mother 1, stepfather 2, and OM 1. These are the people that she is listening to. She has said that the kids will be fine. Well, I don't see how riping them out of their schools and taking them away from their freinds because you want to find your happiness.<P>Indy

AS<P>Thanks for your reply. Everything you describe is exactly how I'm feeling. It is unbearable. How do they sleep at night or even look at themselves in the mirror? My H threw a perfectly good family away and all for what, some bimbo who gave him a little attention. Yes I'm hurting but in the long run who will pay the bigger price for his selfishness, MY CHILDREN, and all he can say is I'm sorry. Yet, he is still out there with that B***H!!!! Where is your marriage at now? How many kids do you have? Mine was also 13 yrs. All I can say is people are soooo EVIL!!!!

Where is your marriage at now?<P>My wife and I have been married for 6 yrs and we seperated in the middle of Jan 01. She filed for divorce in Feb 01.<P>How many kids do you have?<P>I have two kids with my wife and a stepdaughter.<P><BR>Yes I agree that these people are so evil. My inlaws treated my kids like dirt. They have been trying to break up our marriage from the begining. They now have what they want. Look at my post to fill you in on my situation. They are on this board, Plan a/b, and the D/D board.<P>Indy<P><p>[This message has been edited by INDY_357 (edited July 06, 2001).]

sorry double post.<p>[This message has been edited by INDY_357 (edited July 06, 2001).]

SiS:<P>While in the fog they cannot see. That is the saddest part: they will find every self-justification possible. They will use your behavior as justification.<P>You will hear terms like, "The children will be okay." and "They will get over it."<P>Sigh. It would be easier to just hand them the WS Handbook and have them just circle the fogese expression(s) of the day. Despite the unique nature of each situation, it is amazing how the same handful of WS lines are used.<P>I see in your post(s) the hurt and anger you feel. It is understandable. However, if you desire to recoup your marriage, it is something you will have to learn to control.<P>Venting here is the best way. That way you can get it out of your system and not LB on your WS.<P>Plan A all the way. Analyze what emotional needs the OP is fulfilling that you are not. Then move posthaste to fill those needs. Statistically the odds over the long haul are in your favor. Make the gameplan work for you.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

INDY,<P>I caught him 4 mos. w/ OW RED-HANDED. He moved out the same night. OW left tire marks on the street when she saw me. If their love was so right, why couldn't she confront me? Sad part about it, I know her. My H had the nerve to bring her into our home as a friend many many times. He introduced her to me as a gay friend. Yea right. I could kick myself for believing him. Thing is, she was coming over with a obvious gay woman who she had been living with for 4 years. My complete story is on the July 1st post. I really befriended this woman because she had had a hard life. Has 3 kids, 1st one being born when she was 13 or 14 years old, OW's mother left her when she was a baby, was married at the age of 13, ex-husbands were abusive, gay relationship, and now my husband. She sounds like a real winner, doesn't she? But believe or not I don't blame her, I blame my H because he had everything to lose while she didn't. My H lost or shall I say gave up his home, wife, and children for her. Let's see, OW still has her kids, still lives in the same apartment, wasn't married so no husband was lost. Again I ask? WHAT WAS HE THINKING?????<P>

SiS -<BR>I understand how you are hurting! Things are different and better - but like I said there is such an intense emotional pain inside of me. I wonder if we really will stay together (probably). I did a LB the other night, and told him to just go on - just leave - I'm tired of this sh **. I know I shouldn't have - but I've told him so that I can fix myself, I need to be alone. That is how it has always been, go with a guy, break up, be alone, become your own person, new guy appears, starts all over again. The only difference here is 14 years, 2 girls, and we are married, so it makes it harder to leave and start over. I don't want to. I want to live my life with him - always and forever. <P>I know so much more now - thanks to MB - and being here. But I read, think, talk, and sleep infidelity. And it is simply - unmet needs. We stopped giving our spouse the proper attention and care, and they felt a void, and found another to give them attention. Still, once a person pledges themselves to another - they should honor that vow. That human element that makes them so weak - where is honor, devotion, morals, etc. <P>We have 2 daughters, 9 and 7, both with ADD. So I have my hands full making sure they make it through school. My H works far past a 5 pm day, and it makes it difficult on me to make dinner, and work with the kids and homework. I try to pass the ball to them to be responsible for their homework, but one has difficulty reading - so you have to decipher the sentences for her - she won't do it alone, and the other just farts around, so you have to keep vigil on her.<P>Then working on this marriage, I give more than he does. I am the one who always wants to talk, of course , I am the female. He will always talk with me, but everything is matter of fact, little warm fuzzies, and just no emotion on his part. It is very frustrating. I feel so torn up inside. My self-esteem is in the gutter, I have such little energy, I want to organize, but when it actually comes to doing it - I don't. And one of his top needs is domestic support, and I fall way down. He won't meet my needs of affection & SF. Then I go around the circle again - leaving the house looking like it does. He can't give affection/attention - I can't give ds. The real lack is SF. We did finally (I'll call it - have sex one night - that is what it was, because it sure wasn't making love). He does not feel passion, nor wants to screw. SF isn't even in his needs. So we've only made L. once since Feb 2000, and that was in April.<P>And then, the discovery, of lying, deceiving, that he would feel amorous/passion towards another female. He'd only had a 5 month girl/boyfriend relationship. He had sex before we got married, but none of his relationships were hard core, until me, and we'd been together 13 years until the EA came about. She was a family friend introduced by her parents to him first.<P>He is on a business trip. Thank God, he has some extra work to do for this trip, so he has very little extra time, so if she does show up, or parents, he would not be able to spend too much time with him. He won't be rude. If I were there - I would be - because I feel very threatened about this entire ordeal. I could tell them to their face - they are out of our life. He knows I want that entire family out of our life, and I would not have any problem at all telling them they are history. My husband knows well that I would love to blow up the entire state (I won't say which state, so if people live there they won't be mad at me for my discontent of this family and where they live). Before he went, we had a discussion, and I told him to talk to them would disrespect me. Because he knows about the Rules - protection, care, honesty, time. And he took SAA with him to finish. I want him to read HN,HN and then we will complete again the Emotional Needs Q. He will be home Sat, so I will be glad about this trip being over. Because I wish I could go with him whenever he goes to this state. But it is on him now, and I give it to him to make his right decisions. I won't bring it up when he returns home - I know he will, and will tell me if they were there, and exactly what happened. If they are there, he might tell them politely that they are out of the picture, and come home, and tell me I'll be happy about this . . . This OW had such high regard for my H, that she wanted him, so she tried. She even used the classic lines - like - LIKE she didn't want to hurt me. Oh, yeaaaaaaa, if she didn't want to hurt me she wouldn't have done it. B * * ch!!!! I guess we can hate the OP. <P>Well, I have to go work on a project - so I better sign off now. aftershock

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stillinshock:<BR><B>INDY,<P>Again I ask? WHAT WAS HE THINKING?????<P>SiS,<P> My mother and I have talked alot about my situation and she said last night that it was something inside my WS that caused this to happen. I have asked my W the same questions and she doesn't say anything. I think it is because she doesn't know why. I feel the way that you do. I don't know how they sleep at night. I know that I couldn't do what my W has done and sleep at night.<P> I befriended my w because she was really trashed on by my stepdaughter's father. I really felt for her. I know what it is like to have the OP in your house. My w brought the OM to my home the last day she was moving stuff out of our apt. That was really hard to deal with, I am upset with the OM because in talking to my w he knew that she was married but he still proceeded forward. I agree that 99% of the A was my W's fault. But, the OM sould have said NO!!! you are a married woman. But, that is in a perfect world and unfortunately people seem to do things that they want and not what is best for others involved.<P>Indy <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I ask myself this question millions of times a day.<P>What about the kids??<P>Our 3 daughters (10, 4 and 3) are devastated by my H leaving 3 days ago. This is the 3rd time he has left.<P>All I hear from him is....those girls are the most important thing to me.....they are what keeps me alive. They are my life.<P>They aren't much of his life anymore.....since he only see's them when he visits them...and they cry for him hours after he leaves. Want me to call him so they can ask him when he's coming home.<BR>This from a man that told both me and the girls the last time he came home that it was forever and that he would never do this to us again.<P>I'll never figure it out. Happiness is something you make....you don't find it and it doesn't find you. You choose to be happy. He chose not to be happy here....we didn't make him unhappy.<P><BR>

STL<P>You seem to be very wise. Thank you for the insight. Although, I STONGLY believe in the family unit, I'm beginning to see that there is no hope. Don't get me wrong, I want my marriage to work but too much has happened.<P>1. I've already filed for divorce.<P>2. Read SAA just last week, so never had the chance to implement Plan A. I have yelled and screamed and yelled some more for the last 4 mos. We are not spoken or seen each other at in the last 3 weeks (kids included).<P>3. Too many people know. Neightbor friends, and family. Says he could never come back to the neighborhood. No, I did not tell them. A neighbor say a confrontation and told other neightbors.<P>4. I destroyed about 1,000 worth of his clothes. Happened the night I caught him.<P>5. Last but not least, I physically kick the S**T out of him. He bled pretty badly. I never had attack him before in our 13 years of marriage and believe I will never will do that again. I have apologized to him. I don't think he can forgive me. (this is the confrontation the neighbor saw) I lost it because he was describing the kind of sex he had with OW and also revealed there had been other women.<BR>Plus I had found a $500 check he had given OW. Here I am working to help provide for this family and doing w/o many luxuries. Putting money away for kids college, trying to fix up the house little by little, and plan for some kind of comfortable life when we became older, and he's giving money away to this WH**E for sex. How stupid can you be???<P>I guess the more women he F**K, the more he felt like a man.<BR>But that is NOT a man. I don't even know what you call that kind of person. A REAL MAN would of rejected that kind of life, and taken care of his family.<P>Yes, I'm angry. I have prayed and prayed for my heart to soften. I've gone to therapy and I've spoken to my pastor.<BR>All I have is total confusion. I will do anything to keep my family together, but at the same time I feel so humiliated as to what has happened and run the opposite direction. Only time will tell as to what is best for my children and me. Thanks for lending me your ear.<P>