So, I pick up the kids, do my routine, cook and we eat, the 1 year old is very tired so I put him down early. I have conversation with daughter(4.5).<P>JK: How were the fireworks yeaterday<BR>D: Good<P>JK Where did you go?<P>D; IN the neighborhood.<P>JK: Did {babysitter} come<P>D: No, names OM<P>JK: Oh really?<P>D: Yep, I like him, he stayed over.<P>I called W and went ballistic, major LB'ing, We had agreed no time alone with the kids. <P>She responede, he wasn't alone with them. <P>She is certifiable. <P>Are their custody laws for this??<P>What could she be thinking, she said he slept on the couch, so what?<P>I can't even talk to her. I have zero respect left, the only thread was her parenting skills. Now what?<P>Oh well, I guess tomorrow is a new day.<P>JK<P><p>[This message has been edited by JK (edited July 05, 2001).]

Holy cow! I'm mad for you... You *do* need to note this incident down, but try to control those LB's... Just because. I'm going to try to find some of your previous posts to catch up on your whole story...<P>Man I would want to go ballistic too. But you've got to have faith in the process. Turn inward, but protect yourself.<P>Strictly legally speaking, that sort of thing really won't look good in the future.<P>-zen

Zen,<P>Can you be more specific about your quote:<P> "Strictly legally speaking, that sort of thing really won't look good in the future."<P>Waht do you mean look good?<P>JK<P>

OK, I'm no lawyer, but exposing the kids to the OP is something that a judge would certainly take into consideration in my state. An A by itself usually doesn't hold any weight (if conducted without the children's knowledge) when determining custody, but if you bring the OP to your house while the kids are there... You're really exposing yourself. Even if they "sleep on the couch."<P>Like I said, I'm no lawyer, but I'm familiar with this doctrine in my state.<P>Now, having said that, I hope I'm not helping to fan a fire that will lead to you LB'ing or throwing away Plans A or B, or that I am nudging you towards a lawyer and a D. That's NOT my intention. But since these are your children we're talking about, I just thought you should know your rights as a parent. If you have a lawyer, you may want to subtly drop the question to see his/her response. Or you can find divorce law web sites on the 'net.<P>-zen<BR>

JK,<P>I was going to sign off for the night, but I've got to reply to you.<P>I'll give you my advice.<P>The WS spending time with OM, even with the kids around, is something that we can't necessarily stop. However, some have gotten their separation agreements to stipulate that there are no overnight guests of the opposite sex allowed. WAT has that (WAT - don't think you mind me saying that).<P>When my wife first shocked me with "I want to separate", she also discussed that if either of us meets someone, we should not introduce them to the new person for at least a year. I agreed. I didn't know at the time that OM was an OM. I was being slow.<P>Soon, I discovered that OM was being involved with activities. My kids talk about OM like he is just one of their friends, just like any other person my wife hangs around with. It is sickening.<P>JK, keep a journal of everything you find out. Write in it everyday, and keep track of when you have the kids. If you know he stayed over, write it down. I'd ask a lawyer about this overnight business, and see what he/she thinks.<P>I understand the zero respect for your wife. But, keep in mind, that she is not thinking rationally. I've had the zero respect thing reoccur time and time again, and yet time and time again, managed to think that if she became remorceful like many do, that I'd be able to deal with this.<P>My wife went crazy, and just as one example, thanks to my keyboard monitoring software, I discovered one day that she spent all day writing a love letter to OM, while the kids baked all over the house. All flour, raisins, sugar, salt, milk, corn syrup, and other stuff was everywhere. Most rooms. My crazy WS wife told me when I got home, that they did this while she was in the shower. After I checked the log, I knew the truth. Thanks to MB, I didn't go ballistic and confront her. Maybe I should have, but in the fog, it probably would not help.<P>Anyway, the moral of all this is:<P>Wait till tomorrow to react. Tell us, vent, but stay calm.<P>It is sick, and angers you, but just wait. Believe me, if I got over some things I saw/read, you can do it. I'll send you some of the stuff I read if you want.<P>I would mention it to your wife, that you are hurt and do not agree with OM spending the night, under any circumstances, but in a non-LBing way.<P>Keep cool and hang in there.<P>

JK<P>I'm sorry to say that in some states this makes no difference. Zen is right that you need to call your attorney and find out how your state and your judge will view this. <P>I am so sorry for you and your children.<P>STL and I deal with the pain this type of behavior on the part of his ex-wife have caused his children on a daily basis. It's heart wrenching. One thing you might have to face is that your children have learned something very terrible about their mother. She does not love unconditionally. She is capable of walking out on them. They will go out of their way to keep her from getting angry with them. Their fear will be that if she gets angry with them, she will completely abandon them as she has done to you.<P>You are your children's rock right now. It’s tough, I know but you will make it through this somehow. We are all here to give you a helping hand.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

I have to call it a night, but I posted the question on a legal web site in my state. <P>I already LB'ed I don't thinkI can call her to apoligize. i simply must avoid her now. I need time to sort things out as I really believe she needs help, If I file I can have a psych. evaluation done. I would do that not necessarily for custody but because i love her and she neeeds help. <P>I want to share this with her but she will seee it as manipulation. <P>I sopke with her mothe rtonight at lenght, and finally I think she agrees with me. Also a close co-worker of mine, who hears teh daily saga, spoke to her mother so she could hare a third party opinion. Her mother asked my co-worker to call my W, I think its a bad idea. Any thoughts??<P>JK

Sounds like a bad idea to me, one that will result in a big fat LB for you.<P>The fog, man. It's thick. So thick that attempts by anyone to pull them out result in anger and fear... they can't even see who it is trying to help them 'cause it's so thick.<P>Just my $0.02,<BR>zen

Zen,<P>Your $0.02 is worth a million, I kenw this was the right answer. Heres how I look at it, if she was on drugs or need AA, what would her family do, Intervine right, why not now, she is destroying her life and dramatically affecting hre childrens'. <P>What if her family intervines??<P>Right now I fell like I'm in withdraw, I really don't care what she does, I want to live my life and not even speak to her. <P>JK<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zen:<BR><B>Sounds like a bad idea to me, one that will result in a big fat LB for you.<P>The fog, man. It's thick. So thick that attempts by anyone to pull them out result in anger and fear... they can't even see who it is trying to help them 'cause it's so thick.<P>Just my $0.02,<BR>zen</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Oh man, I'm hearing ya, JK. I've been fighting the same desire to say "the hell with this" but I keep coming back to wanting that girl I married.<P>Oh man, your analogy about the drugs/alcohol... I WROTE THAT SAME THING IN MY NOTES A FEW WEEKS AGO. How is the addiction to this kind of behavior any different from an addiction to drugs or alcohol? Well, the A is about a choice that the person is continuing to make over and over. It may not be as physically addicting as drugs or alcohol, but it is sure as intense. I do think it's appropriate for family to intervene, and I've wanted my wife's family to do so, but they have not done so, and here's why: She just won't listen to them. They'd be just one more set of people who didn't understand... Now this is in my case. Certainly there are people who do take their parent's advice much more seriously, but I think it's rare...<P>I did tell my parents that if I ever pulled the kind of stuff that my W is doing, they had better kick my *&$ HARD. I would want someone to shake me and wake me, cause if I did that stuff, I'd most definitely be asleep in that fog...<P>So nutshell: if you think her parents would really be able to make a difference, it *might* be worth considering, but it would have to be handled very carefully. I'd make sure they knew about LB'ing, etc. But if she's any bit of a hardhead, I'd have to say nopers... Nobody, not even a parent, can *make* anybody do something.<P>Take care and keep the faith in JK and Plan A,<BR>zen<P>p.s. Check out Redon's Plan A post below for some good inspiration...

JK:<P>I am ante-ing in with zen. Pot is now up to 4 cents about that being a bad idea.<P>Plan A and do the research on legalities.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

JK,<P>Ok, the rebel is here. I will voice another opinion. Just as you can't control your W, neither can you control what others will say or do to your W. Don't stop them or her mom from trying whatever they might. You can give them your opinion or information that may be helpful but let them decide. That way your W will be forced to see that you are not the only one who does not agree with her. This will eat away at her and may make her distant from even them. Then it might make her really think. OM vs. family,friends and being happy? Hm.... Like asking a kid which do you want, this big nickel or this small dime? Hm.... OM might look big but he is worth less. <P>My H did that until he had no more friends other than OW. Sure was lonely at the top. Did his friends abandon him? No, they cared for him and ask about him often. He abandoned them. Now all know this, it is no secret. All the OPs in the world can't replace real friends and their love. But they certainly will try. H told me that OW recently said, 'you have me, what more do you need?'<P>Vain or what?<P>Oh, another thought. Have you actually done a search on the OM? You know find out if he has any past criminal history, delinquent tickets, outstanding warrants. Anything that may make him bad to be around your children. This would be useful in front of the judge or your lawyer. <P>Just my thoughts. <P>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited July 05, 2001).]

JK,<BR>Within 2 weeks of my now x moving into her apt and OM right behind her, she was going to take om with her to pick up our s from her mothers. She said her mother said it was ok. I too went ballastic and was successful in keeping om away from my son on that day. MIL said she never said it was okay, x just said it she was bringing him. FIL said he would not be welcome in their home.<P>Then wife agreed om wouldn;t be around kids. That lasted about a month. I had problems with son one night and he was upset because om had come home. I again went ballastic and confronted her at her place of work as she was coming out. <P>Not a good idea, before I knew it there was a lot of police around and I came very close to be arrested and also banned from her place of work unless it was a medical emergency(she works at a hospital.)<P>In the end, none of this did any good and I about drove myself crazy trying to prevent it. IN my state, she could have been sleeping with a footbal team but as long as there was no drugs or abuse, then it didn't matter.<P>A minister friend of mine counseled me against being this way, that it would be better for the kids in the long run to be able to deal with om if they knew I wasn't going to lose my cool. I finally was able to let it go. I wasn;t going to be able to stop her legally and the more I tried, the harder she tried to.<P>I think the ws is trying to force the issue to make things seem normal for them. I did notice that once I accepted the fact(begrudgingly) that x did not press the matter so much.<P>If you can get a RO in a separation agreement, then go for it, other wise you will drive yourself crazy.<P>As fro getting others involved, forget it. The ws doesn't like to be "educated" by anyone. They would rather cut all others out of their life than give up on op. She will feel you are recruiting against her and that will be a major lb.<P>Hang in!<BR>