I started this journey 10 months ago and have ridden a roller coaster of emotions ever since. I can honestly say that the end is all my doing not WS. I have forgiven all but can't forget all. I am now at a point that if we don't make love I am upset and depressed. If we do make love I am upset and depressed. All this has to do with self-esteem, which is totally gone. When WS thought she would be with OP she bragged to me about their love making that lasted 6 hours and how she had'nt sweat that much in a long time. I also heard her and OP laughing at my love making. I really gave it my all but I just can't keep feeling like this anymore. I am sure that WS can never give me back this part of my self-esteem no matter what she says to me. She has said and I quote " You are a great lover". Being a great lover and being the best to her are 2 different things. I don't know if I was the best until the A occured but we all like to think we are but knowing you aren't is to hard for me. So after all this time it comes down to sex and my quiting. Who would have thought.. I need to thank each of you who offered advice and understanding and wish all well on your roads to recovery.<P>------------------<BR>HealingnNC<BR>Sometimes I think that I was meant to experience all the things that I have experienced in my life just so I could be ready to love and be loved.

I am sorry to hear that you are giving up. I have heard that the sex part is the hardest for betrayed men to handle, and for women it is the lies and the emotional connection with OP that hurts most. I don't remember your entire story, was there counseling? Was your W remorseful for her cruel actions and words towards you? I think that it is true that it takes the BS at least 2 years to fully recover without wanting to vomit! How is the relationship w/your wife now?

HnNC:<P>Have you tried counseling? It is part of the healing process. There is no reason that the two of you cannot be on the road to recovery as well. The more the merrier, in fact. The one road we here all wished were backed up in a traffic jam.<P>What steps have you taken to move beyond your hurt? What steps has she taken? What steps have you taken jointly?<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

I have to agree that I believe that your situation is salvageable. Perhaps it is because I wish I were in your position, i.e. that my W was willing to end her A and reconcile.<P>But reading your post I felt the same pain and anger regarding my situation. I do understand your feelings.<P>I have a belief in love and spiritual growth. I also believe that sex blossoms out of these; it does not build them.<P>You've isolated the problem: your self-esteem. What can you do to work on that, just for you, no one else? You must grow to love and respect yourself once again. Once you have gained a sense of your worth, you will have a different perspective. You can then begin to work on understanding your relationship with your W and healing it, building it, hopefully with MB tenets in mind.<P>I know I am speaking in generalities, that I have not practically said how exactly you can do this. I will think about it and try to come up with something. But I do know that it is possible.<P>You've got a real chance to start over, something that many of us on this board would give anything to have. I know that if given that chance by my W, I would literally move mountains if that's what it took. I could not let my own insecurities ruin an opportunity that I have longed for so greatly.<P>Be strong, and take care of yourself,<BR>zen

HealinnNC<P>I'm sorry for your obvious hurt. All I can say is please be sure you want to give up on your M. When your WS lives with the OP, as mine does, I would feel so much further ahead if my H actually showed a desire to work on our M.<BR>In other words, I can't speak for sure, but your relationship with your W seems light years ahead of mine.

I will try to answer the questions asked here. WS is truely remorseful and in that I have no doubt. I went to counseling for a while and feel that is the only reason I got this far. Joint counseling is not an option and never has been. I understand the part about the BS wanting to vomit all to well. When I think about the A I still get that churning in my stomach (a good way to lose weight but not recommended). I just cant continue to feel like this every day. Isn't it funny that this is probably the feeling that WS's have when they make their choice to enter into an A. At least WS can say they didn't give up on us I did. Somewhere along the way I think we have to get control back. WS sent my life into a tailspin and I feel that this is the only way for me to pull out of this nose dive.<P>------------------<BR>HealingnNC<P><BR>Sometimes I think that I was meant to experience all the things that I have experienced in my life just so I could be ready to love and be loved.

Healing:<P>Have you sought help for depression in your counseling? One manifestation is in the symptoms you describe.<P>If your WS has taken the requisite steps, can you do less? It must be a 100 percent effort by you both. A depressed condition will not allow you to give that 100 percent and to move beyond the pain you are harboring.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Healing NC,<P>You know what? I understand now you feel. I am considered to be in recovery but many times sure don't feel that way. <P>You are not alone in this feeling. How long have you and your W been back together? <P>Yes, I believe you need to have some support/assistance. You have a lot of anger within you, what is your W doing to meet your needs? What are you doing to meet hers? <P>I need to leave now, but please keep posting. <P>L.

Healing<P>I agree with STL, if your WS is remorseful, if you realize the problems confronting you, if you read the posts of those that have fought the battles and demons, ten months to a year seems to be about the time that critical mass builds up because the issues are learned and the recovery path is lit up. You are further ahead than most of the couples in here in that you KNOW the issues confronting you. You owe it to yourself and WS, who did come back and is willing to do whatever it takes. Your memories and pain are just that, a movie that will replay from time to time but will fade with each day, week, and year. <P>Give yourself and your WS that time, energy, and chance! Dont be satisfied with settling for *I tried, I can't*. I know it hurts, I know its scary...so was WS confronting everything and telling you the truth. It was scary for her to be found out, to tell you what, when, where, how, why...and still through it all, you two love each other....You DO love her don't you...huh? Don't give up, don't quit because if you do, you will quit on yourself and never know your true strength! And make no mistake, my friend, it takes more strength to stay and fight, than it does to give up!<P>We are pulling for you!!<P>*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*<P>Trueheart

Healing,<P>Don't give up and don't go away!<P>Your spouse can not give you your self-esteem back. That is something that you have to do. I agree with others that you should get more counselling. Did you try anti-deps? I am sorry if this question is redundant but would she consider going to help YOU not her? 10 months seems long but it really is a short time considering the magnitude of what you have experienced. Even at the one year mark for me, I find myself having thoughts that I would rather not have every now and then. It will be difficult. Please don't give up.<P>take care,<BR>cleo

HealingnNC,<P>One thing that helped me to put things in perspective is that I started to realize that when I said my vows I promised to be with my husband "in sickness and in health". It is easy to be with someone when all things are going well. But when the going gets tough we all have days when we just want to run away. I realized that my husband had his affairs during a period of his life when he fell from grace with himself. This was a period of sickness. When I realized this I knew that I had to give our marriage and him one good, honest chance to save it. This viewpoint helped me realize that what he did was not really an attack on me, it was a struggle within himself. It was about him, not about me. Yes your wife attacked you verbally and that is very hurtful. But those attacks were her way of justifying her actions. They had little to do with you. <P>STL (my husband) is right in that your obsessing with this is a sign of depression. Please give your marriage and your wife all that you have. If you are on antidepressants for 6 months and you still feel the way you do, then perhaps you need to move on. But it would be a shame to leave your marriage when it was really a clinical depression that drove you away. <P>I say this from experience. STL and I have come a long way, we have a much happier and stronger relationship now. Though an affair is not the recommended path to marital growth, I know that we have a much richer relationship to day because we were forced to face and deal with this crisis in our lives. <P>My thoughts are with you,<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Healing NC<BR>1. It is good that you forgave WS, but this is only one step in the direction of rebuilding your new marriage. It requires a renewed commitment, a plan (much info available here on MB website), and effort and work from both of you. In my situation I am 2 years from discovering 1 st A and 2 months from discovering 2 nd A, and she has confessed everything and all the details, and I am still rollercoasting - healing.<BR>2. Forgetting will take time. The wound of the A will take time to heal just like a physical wound in our physical bodies, and look at all the things we do to help our bodies heal.<BR>3. About the intense passion, sexual and emotional liaison that happens in an A, may feel like intensified chemistry where sparks fly and maybe even the feeling of falling in love where the WS fantasizes and obsesses and risks everything for stolen kisses, sweaty palms and rapid heart rate….. BUT, BUT All of this is a fake closeness, based on fantasy, secrecy, deception and lies.<BR>It is an infatuation that is an addiction to the drug: AFFAIR. This bubble almost always bursts.<BR>All of this is only possible in a marriage, and at the expense of the BS. All of the complexities of the long term marriage relationship with its financial problems, raising kids, job pressures, changes in status, loss of passion, boredom, etc., this is what a real marital relationship has to deal with in all of life's issues and daily negotiate bills, affection, cooking, cleaning, shopping, personal undesirable behavior, etc.. It is these that the WS wants to escape and engage in an A<BR>4. The sex thing, Yes it could be true that they had hours of intense pleasure, but that was only possible because it was done under the illusionary conditions I listed above, which at most it would only last temporarily, just a matter of time.<BR>5. The other angle I looked at my WS, was that if I dump her because she had sexual liaisons for 4 months, and I move on to another relationship, odds are I will meet another divorcee and she had (who knows how many years) sex with another man or men, so what am I gaining?<BR>6. It takes work to rebuild marriage, and finding that all-fulfilling happiness we are all seeking, but is possible and you can experience honeymoon love with your spouse. I have additional articles I can email you if you are interested. gggalis@hotmail.com<BR>

I am sorry for what she has done to you, I know you are feeling inadiquate right now. This was a cruel thing for her to do, but remember they say and do all kind of cruel things when they are in the fog. If she is remorseful and has been making amends then really consider sticking it out. But I do understand from my own experience where you are comming from. for me I felt it best to perhaps start fresh with someone else. But the pain is still there. I never had the oppurtunity that you do right now.<P>

WS will not got to counseling even to help me. I will consider giving anti-depreesants another go. I understand that WS's say things to make the fantasy last but maybe that is how they reallt felt. WS has apologized not for what she said but that I heard them, big difference to me but I have accepted that is all she can give me. She continually says she didn't know I would hear the things she said. I don't think I'll go away from boards but I just don't have the energy to go on fighting for something that seems so hopeless.<P>------------------<BR>HealingnNC<P><BR>Sometimes I think that I was meant to experience all the things that I have experienced in my life just so I could be ready to love and be loved.

HealingNC,<P>So if your wife is not acceptable to counseling, what does she feel she is doing to better the marriage? Would what she is doing be acceptable to her if you did that to her? <P>Those are the type of questions I pose to my H since he would answer me with take what I am giving you. When I turned it around and put him in my place, boy he was quick to say he would not put up with that kind of reaction. Ok, so he doesn't like himself. Why was it ok to treat me that way? Hm...... H could not answer. That is when he said he needed to do more. Now we agree, next big hurdle how to do this, meeting my need in an agreeable way. <P>You will continue to feel bad unless you both can agree on how she can meet your needs. This is as important as being truthful and honest. Is it enough to have the body but not the heart and mind? No. You are woth more than that. <P>Remember to respect yourself. She needs to respect you also and you in turn respect her. <P>Please take care of yourself. Keep coming back here. <P>L.<BR>

I have treid to ask WS how she would feel if I went out and got a lover to meet my EN's that she wasn't meeting and she said that she didn't think it would help the matter in the long run but that she would understand it if that is what I wanted to do. WS also said she would continue to work on us even if I did have another person in my life. I just don't get her.<P>------------------<BR>HealingnNC<P><BR>Sometimes I think that I was meant to experience all the things that I have experienced in my life just so I could be ready to love and be loved.

NC:<P>Even if your WS doesn't respond to a fully to the MB techniques, remember that she is still in the fog. Reread the material on this site about Plan A.<P>Hope you stay: the material on this site is good for you: by implementing the things found here, you will become a better person. If your wife sees that and relents and repents ... you win. If she does not, you will still be a better person for it ... you win.<P>Giving up and proceeding immediately to Plan D (divorce) is a lose-lose situation. You lose your marriage and you lose the opportunity to improve yourself.<P>Hope to see your continued presence here.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Ok HealingNC, more fog talk. Let's see W doesn't think an A would be help things in the long run. You agree? W agrees to work on the marriage (for now). A type of commitment? Yet you are confused. Sounds like you need further clarification for reasssurance sake. Hey, I am right at that point myself. <P>Is that what you need? If yes, then pick a better time to address this with your W. Let her know you need reassurance and if she can't think of a way to provide that, give an example. Ask her what type of reassurance she needs from you. This is a hard conversation to have. But this is your need taking precedence over hers. Asking her not to be selfish is hard. Let her think about it<BR>and watch her actions. <P>Remember small steps forward may result in a few backward. Don't give up the ship yet. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

How long does it take for the fog to clear? I thought that after 10 months there wouldn't be any fog left, maybe I was wrong. I will stay on board and with the support from all here I'll dig my heels in and try again. Thanks for the help and support. Next step anti-depressants again.<P>------------------<BR>HealingnNC<P><BR>Sometimes I think that I was meant to experience all the things that I have experienced in my life just so I could be ready to love and be loved.

Healing,<P>I'm not sure in your case that it would be called fog. The A has been over for quite a while. Possibly withdrawal if that...<BR>I'm glad that you have a renewed interest in working on things. I know how fruitless it can seem at times.<P>Why don't you just hand her a copy of one of the ENQs and tell her you are filling one out also. See what happens. You can also try the recreational Q and the lovebuster Q. Maybe if you start getting more time together that does not involve talking about heavy relationship things, she would relax a bit more.