Z - husband was on the voicemail to the OW. But she probably heard my voice, not much to say there. I felt this was an important issue that the father needed to know. Maybe I will not go up to the room, maybe I will. I will have to talk to God on this one. I feel that the room is for husband and wife to go to whenever. He is always welcome to my room, but of course I am not talking to a lover. <P>Yes my husband is a person who will do things his way only. Jennifer has asked him quite nicely to work on ending the affair, but he doesn't listen to her either. Like he said tonight, why doesn't everyone leave him and her alone. Husband asked me if we were to stay together would I agree to him having her as a friend. I said definitely not, Jennifer told him the same. And it is not good to have a friend of the opposite sex. <P>Yes husband is in bad shape psychologically. He is depressed and very demanding. He feels alone just as much as I feel alone. He at least has the OW to talk to and hears her voice activates the love, sexual, intimate feelings inside. He does not get this picture, but I tell him when he hears her voice it activates those feelings. Maybe one day he will come to his senses, but I sure hope it is soon.<P>It would be nice if he didn't get so balistic whenever I find him on the phone. It is not my fault he is talking, I didn't initiate the call and I did not speak in the phone, he did.<P>As far as her committing to her marriage. Husband says she is but I have great doubts. She would just not respond to my H and get her life in shape. But she doesn't, so there is the sense that she is not wanting her marriage either. I will do Plan B shortly, with Jennifers help. We have discussed it this last counseling with Jennifer. She feels things are not going like they should. Husband is controlling the situation. She is not happy with it.

I don't know why I bother. I think it must be the 50 years of programming, there is really no reason to be married, I (I wanted to say we here, my wife has objected, so I changed it to I, she feels she "hears" me, she also says jennifer thinks she hears me, and that I do not hear her) clearly do not hear her. My efforts to deal with this (emotional attachment to op) are twisted(IMO) and seen as just a (My wife is here, now she is standing over my shoulder "correcting" me [I wanted to say chewing me out, but that was vetoed, she also wants you to know I have done this to her too, and corrected one of her posts myself...once] some more, this will most likely go on for hours.... "I have a screw loose", etc. etc.), malicious personal affront to her. <P>I should just put a muzzle on her, a dark thought, but there it is, if she was a man I would...well you figure it out. The pressure she exerts is unbelieveable, and there is no escaping her. I just asked her to plz leave (I am in my so-called comp room, my space), and she is still here, has not missed a beat, although I am ready to explode and it is taking every ounce of strength I possess not too. I don't even want to write here, but somehow maybe this is useful (maybe you do this to your spouses) to some of you, and of course she will read it later, and at least I can have my uninterrupted thoughts down. But I will pay dearly for this. I cannot help but wonder how someone who wants a harmonious caring relationship feels she can encourage that by beating me into submission, (she just said she will post to this and blast me too, that is where we are, she is reading over my shoulder, and feels I am being disrespectful (ie blasting) to her in this post). She is wanting me to not express the intensity of my feelings because she says it is disrespectful to her.<P>For those of you who observed that it is difficult to get real insight as it happens behind others closed doors, welcome to our world. I feel like one of those "real" TV shows. I don't know if this peer review helps or hurts, but it has been revealing to me (about my w), don't know for sure if has for her also. As you can see people are complicated, on one hand I am glad she is getting emotional support, on the other hand I am close to outraged at some of her (as I see it) misreprenstations. Emotional fairness has been a big issue for me throughout marriage, also her single-minded and agressive campaign to "fix" me has not changed in all these years, despite the risks she faces now in continuing that approach. She DOES NOT get it, that is one of the biggest reasons I don't want to be here. I don't want to face this kind of stuff whenever I deviate from how she thinks I should be. I am NOT responsible for her inability to not LB, or plan A, or stop criticisms...she IS. For the record these so-called talks and conversations consist of hours of what is wrong with me, when I do respond it is immediately trashed, shredded, discounted, and she barely takes a breath as she tells me how wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong I am.<P>I am embarrassed to actually expose all this in real time, but maybe it works somehow.<P>btw adam, I am sorry my stuff has gotten mixed up in your thread, that was not my intention.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 08, 2001).]

SnL and Thinker:<P>As long as you persist in contact with the OW; it is your wife's perogative to fight for her marriage.<P>Granted, there may be better Plan A methods she should be implementing. But you, sir, are esconced in a fogbank as deep as any seen here. Your behavior, vis a vis the continued contact while in your home, is grossly disrespectful to your wife. (As if just out-side-the-home contact were not disrespectful enough.)<P>To use a colloquialism: It is time to $h!t or get off the pot. Either you are committed to your marital recovery, or you need to move on and move out. Continued "intellectualizing" is merely an attempt at self-justification.<P>If you are committed, your first step is to sit down and do the Emotional Needs questionnaire. Second step, no contact. Third, begin implementing the rules of honesty, care, protection and time.<P>Thinker: Given the circumstances, when next you talk to Jennifer, talk about Plan B, if there isn't an immediate turnaround by SnL.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL - as you can see the blasting by my husband will continue. I am writing in a thoughtful caring manner. He is a good man but like you and others as well as Jennifer says, he is in a DEEP DEEP FOG. He is listening to only what he wants, memememe, and regardless of what that outcome does to his family he will continue. <P>The hurt,hurt,hurt, things was quite dramatic. The pain the BS feels is no where the hurt the WS feels. Harleys books say the same. I would love for my husband to feel the pain I have felt for the period of time he is communicating to her. I am sorry he is so blatant on the posts, We made an agreement to be respectful to each other and I feel I am making respectful judgments without blasting him to pieces. I do try to put a positive end to the scenario. He is a good person when in the right frame of mind.<P>I asked him why he is here. He says it is the right thing to do. It would be the right thing to do if we were doing the MB program. But when one is working on Plan A and the other is working with the OW, the 2 don't mix, the cocktail mixed is so sour and bitter. <P>Yes, Jennifer just this past thursday talked about plan B. I feel it will happen. Husband continuously says why doesn't everyone leave him and the OW alone and let them do what they want. Jennifer has put her 2 sense into this statement as well as I and you folks. Therefore I have no more answers or insight into this. I know he is looking at the passion of a fantasy and that is all. She is not real, the relationship is not real, but he is obsessed with her, and hopefully with Gods help he will see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yes, he is still here, I actually don't know why. Yes I was planning on doing plan A. But I was hurt big time last night by my husband and an apology would be nice, don't actually expect one at this time. Maybe a surprise is in stock for me. Therefore, I will bury this hurt as well as the rest of the HURTS and try to move on. I am wearing thin, and time is running short. Therefore thin and time cause great pain and loss of love, care, thoughtfulness and respect.

Thinker:<P>Plan B exists for you to preserve what love remains, give you separation from some of the hurt, and a chance to work on YOU.<P>So moving to Plan B might be a wise choice at this point in time.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL - yes I feel plan B will be beneficial. I asked him today if he would like to implement Plan B and he said no. That he feels this is the right thing to do, stay here. So I guess that is what will happen. The fight in me today is kind of dwindling. I would love to have a deep heart apology and that would rekindle the flame to keep going. But I will see what happens during the course of the day. <P>Jennifer and I will talk about it some more. But I would really love the committment on my husbands part to work on this marriage with Jennifer with the BM. Pray for us, and help my husband see that he is missing the boat to paradise. Paradise would be so embracing and comforting. I look into the future and see peace, love, happiness, etc. I know this is a fantasy right now, but this fantasy could be true.

He might need radar-guided tweezers to pick out the fence-riding splinters while in the midst of the fog.<P>Perhaps the Mothership can beam him down a pair.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 08, 2001).]

SNL and thinker<P>You are like two politicians fighting it out through the media rather than head on discussing the problem. You are justyfing your own positions rather than coming to an understanding. It only serves to aggravate each other rather than anything else. Perhaps you should discuss these matters with some intermediary instead. <P>I think you both need to be able to compromise. You are both deeply entrenched and seem incapable of it. <P>Maybe I am completely of the mark, but it seems to me that SNL is taking revenge for controlling behavior and as he states perhaps emotional coldness by continuing contact in the home. Thinker OTOH has lost all control and is incapable of regaining it, except by confrontation and conflict. Here is a compromise for you. It is perhaps not beautiful, but rather see it as a ceasefire in a war of attrition, both armies needing a rest:<P>SNL: no more contact with OW in the while he decides on whether to work on marriage. <BR>Thinker: There must be things you do or don't do that bother SNL. You could offer most of these in return for this one, but very important concession. If you don't have this, you have however a huge bargaining chip: OW's husband doesn't know. So in the extreme case: no contact or else. <P>Just tell me whether that sounds like horses***t to you or not. I don't know the details about you. Most important is you both get out of this slugging match. <P>Now on to SNLs post:<BR>SNL:<BR><B>[on no contact].... first the ws has to decide they want to work 100%, along the way to that decision you will have to accept 10%, 50% etc. (or file for divorce)./b]<P>This is just our case, but me and my W agreed that that before we would work on the marriage, we would have an intermediate period in which we would both decide whether we even wanted that. But I still insisted that in this period there should be no contact. It was a small sacrifice because both of us could make up our mind within weeks, and would still show respect to me. Of course, I also told my W she could leave right away if she couldn't make this one concession. Its amazing how fast the mind decides what is important under pressure.<P>[b]snl...I disagree with this as an absolute principle, there are bs who have become friends with op after reconcilliation with ws (although I am sure this is rare).</B><P>Perhaps. What is that, some kind of Stockholm principle where the captors befriend their tormentors? Very forgiving and understanding people? Very rare no doubt, and therefore not relevant, unless you wish your W to be one of these BS.<P><B>The hurt the bs experiences (forever) interests me, it says more about the bs, then it does about the A, the ws, or the op. It fairly screams self-esteem issues (albeit understandably so).</B><P>First, it doesn't last forever. For me the really bad times lasted about 3-4 months. That is the good news. But it is extremely intense, and described to by psychologists as "excruciating" and "severely traumatic", and compared by them in human experience to the loss of a close relative. <BR>To say it screams self-esteem issues is just nonsense. You might as well describe the death of a spouse as screaming dealing with abandonment issues. Even if this were true, what does it matter? The pain was real and was caused by the EMA. To say this pain "interests" you suggests a cold clinical detachment, and an incapacity for compassion with other human beings. You repeatedly put 'pain' between quotation marks - does that mean you think it is somehow not real? Why?<P><B>And yes being an adult is about one thing and one thing only, doing exactly what you please, to do anything else is dysfunctional. Hopefully doing what you please does include an interest in including the impact on others as part of the decision process.</B><P>Even in the most individualistic societies humans are bound by moral, social and legal norms in their behavior to others. These rules our not made up by someone else, we made them ourselves. It is normal to rebel against this if these rules become a straightjacket, but it is certainly not dysfunctional to hold yourself back. I mean, I would have very much liked to put OM in hospital with a baseball bat. That I didn't do that does not make me dysfunctional, on the contrary (maybe repressed though ). Though admittedly legal rather than moral reasons convinced me. Still, only complete psychopaths (in the medical sense of the word) do not take account of the feeling of others AT ALL.<P><B>What you are doing right now is mememem, you are advocating for an outcome you want, you could care less (so to speak) whether that outcome works best for everyone else.</B><P>I think you should do what makes you happy, including leaving your W if necessary. I don't think that entails you to treat her with the disrespect of contact with OW in the home. But in the end I have no interest in the matter, so I don't see how I am being selfish at this point. <P><B>Personally I think it is more honest, and far more useful for people to be as mememe as possible in relationships, rather than try to disguise it as something else.</B><P>You are right, but only to an extent. I don't think there are a lot of relationships based on equality where two people in a couple do not make concessions. Ar eyou overcompensating now for honesty?<P><B>re is regret for the pain, but it will not be a reason (usually, although some ws say that motivated them to reconcil, personally I don't believe it for a second, it just sounds nice), to stop the friendship.</B><P>It can make the WS stop the EMA once they get confronted with what they are doing. Perhaps not in all or even most cases. I don't think you should reconcile because of the pain. I do think you should end the EMA (i.e. contact) -one way or another- because of it. To continue it is really extremely unthoughtful, and no-one can say you don't know what you are doing now.<P><B>...I have no interest in winning back trust. I was trustworthy in the past, am still now, and will be in the future. My issue is trying to decide whether this marriage should be saved. </B><P>You should do the latter first, but if you do want to work on it, you have to be able to make your W trust you again, and she has to trust you again. <P><B>I realize the contact must end, and in fact it is, that was not the point of this post about cellphone. But since you ask, I am ending it in my way and in my time. If I did it any other way, I would resent the MB efforts, so if my willing participation is required, this is how it had to be.</B> <P>Understood, but many people who continue contact are deluding themselves. It may work differently with others. Your marital problems certainly seem more intense than most so that may be the case. I don't know which category you are in.Your time - how long is that? two months or two years? <P><B>I am sorry my wife has to suffer, but is her choice, she could just divorce me, I am not doing this to hurt her.</B><P>It is hurting her though, and she wouldn't feel any better if she left. You are denying your responsibility for her pain. It is not her choice not to divorce you which is painful, but your choice to talk to OW in your home. Your actions have consequences for those around you, don't you realise that?<P><B>That would be wrong, what she is having to accept is how I end it, not that I can continue it indefinitely.</B><P>timetable? promise? The insecurity would be the bigger problem. <BR> <P>

adamsol,<P>I think you can still put plan A into place. You're going to have to be damn strong though.<P>Re : Mobile Phone.<P>Explain to your wife that it makes you unhappy and angry to hear her on the phone to OM. Explain that you love her and want her around, but if she wants to use the phone either use it outside or go into a room and shut the door. Your getting angry, removing the SIM card etc etc is only making her withdraw and she is in a state where you can make no deposists to the LB!<P>Give yourself a timescale for Plan A, say 3-6 months. Then you put Plan B into place. At least if you do all this you can't say you never tried.<P>Just be positive and try to be happy, even though the situation makes you feel the opposite. You will become a more attractive person being positive and not being grumpy and angry all the time.<P>Plec.