We had a lovely day at the beach today...I was so relaxed. The boys had a great time...<P>H stayed and watched a movie with me...getting to be a pattern (although, he complained about it later...)<P>We had a conversation....<BR>still filled with "I don't want to be married, I never wanted to be married." "You don't listen to me....I've been saying this for two months."<P>I countered with...okay let's not be married. We'll split the time with the boys half and half so that you have time by yourself to get your stuff done and time with boys and I'll get time by myself to get my stuff done and I get time with boys. <P>Of course, was seen as a threat, as an ultimatum...I asked why is it a threat...isn't it what you want...That's what not being married will mean. He goes back to "It can be what we want it to be..." I said nope, if you get your boundaries, I get mine. If you get 'your' life, I get 'mine.' That's what not being married means. <P>Then I was accused of sermonizing as I 'preached' about how we could create the marriage we wanted...if he says we can create the 'unmarriage' we want...why can't we create the marriage we want? I repeat what I have said before about him being able to get what he wants/needs, I get what I want/need and kids get what they need/deserve. (that's where the sermonizing comment came in...)<P>I agreed. I teach...it's what I do...hard for me not to share with him what I have learned lately. I want so much for him to read it, know it, buy in to it. He said I don't want to hear about it right now. <P>Then, I'm not sure quite how the conversation went, but he said that he'd get his mom to babysit kids for 2-3 hours tomorrow. I looked confused and asked why. He said are you kidding? I said no. He said so you can tell me about what you are learning....I about fell off the couch.<P>I wanted to shove HN/HN or Lovebusters into his hands....but, I thought maybe it would be better for him to read the "basic concepts" that I printed out and fill out the questionaires...then he can decide if he wants to read the whole books.<P>Then I probably went over the top...a bad habit of mine...I need to learn when to quit....I told him I loved him, that I wanted him to be who he needed to be...that he had allowed me to be me for so long...I wanted him to be free to be himself...that he had never held me back, but had allowed me to move forward....<P>This is not verbatim...I did cry some, but tried to quickly stop...didn't want him to think I was using emotional blackmail...I did say I thought he was throwing away his family to pursue his own interests...when he called me on that I said, well then what do you call it? I also pulled the old "you promised" stuff....when he put it back on me that I also had not fulfilled my promises...I said that he was right and that's why I was reading and learning...why I was determined to change....<P>That's when I said I also have belief and faith that God can help us change in a heartbeat...I was naive about marriage...but now I know about 'the art of negotiation,' etc. That's when he switched gears on me and said we could talk about it tomorrow...<P>Oh, there was so much in that conversation....I will be in prayer until I fall asleep...<P>Scared out of my mind,<BR>Cali<BR>

Cali, Cali, Cali...<P>OK, sounds like you have a great opportunity here. You know what you have to do. GO SLOW!!!!!!!!!!<P>Remember, his brains have been re-arranged. He may not have your level of mental gymnastics restored yet. have you found any moose brain worms on the floor yet?<P>Please remember to validate his feelings. You are no where close yet to expect any thing back.<P>Good luck,<BR>WAT

Cali, <P>WAT is right, as always. This is a great opportunity. Go slowly. Your giving him material to read instead of you telling him the basics is a wonderful idea. That way you are not teaching, only showing.<P>Don't set yourself up for disappointment by expecting too much.<P>Stay strong and focused.<P>Z<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Best of luck Cali - remember, go slowly and try not to overwhelm him with information! I'm looking forward to the day when I can give my WH the Harley books to read!<P>hugs, Paint

I agree. Good luck Cali, go slow. No preaching, let him make his own decisions.<P>My prayers are with you.

You ARE doing well. I'm still trying to figure out how to have these kinds of talks. <P>It's a good sign that he commits in ADVANCE to having a talk. Ours have to happen spontaneously.<P>You do seem over the top sometimes, that's probably a trait he married you for. You're chasing after him (probably seem desparate at times). You probably feel him retreating when you do that and you chase faster so he doesn't get away. I bet it scares him a little (a lot?). <P>When you have these discussions do you do anything to make it extra safe? Give him some nonthreatening way to tell you to slow down?<P>I like the idea of reading stuff (but that's me). When I came here it took me a LONG time to absorb everything and apply it to my M, even though at first glance I KNEW it was the right stuff. My W is working on this with me but just doesn't seem to have the passion to read about it.<P>Good luck today,<BR> -- Jeffers

Way to go Cali. I'm excited for you for tomorrow's talk. And I echo what everyone has said. I will emphasize that you need to keep your expectations low. <P>Really listen to what he has to say tomorrow, Cali. Altho I know some of it may not be easy, you'll have to filter out the hurtful or FOG talk, to get to the real meat of things. I remember we here at MB use to say if we thought our responses may turn out to be LBs, to say one or all of the following responses instead "I see, I understand, Okay" (lol .... yuck! .. I know, it sux .... but it's better than LBing) <P>I wonder what your H would answer if you asked him what is a "Good Marriage". I think asking that would tell you what his emotional needs are. Just a thought.<P>Best of luck tomorrow ... LOW EXPECTATIONS, Hon.<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 07, 2001).]

Cali,<P>Don't post to you often, you seem to have it so much together, that you truly inspire me, I know that you don't feel very strong and that you don't inspire but you truly do. I can't imagine the stamina that you have, to deal with all this and your boys and being a teacher.<P>Best of luck to you in your visit today, remember that it is a visit by a very good friend and treat him accordingly, they always say we treat strangers better then the ones that we love. If I had the opportunity that you've been given, I would ask him to read while you prepare lunch or a snack and let him be alone with what he is reading and doing , check on him with a loving, supporting smile on your face. When he is done serve what you have prepard and what for him to start the conversation, don't be needy or pushy as these are LBer's<P>Again, God's Blessings! C ya Dawn

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeffers:<BR><B><P>You do seem over the top sometimes, that's probably a trait he married you for. You're chasing after him (probably seem desparate at times). You probably feel him retreating when you do that and you chase faster so he doesn't get away. I bet it scares him a little (a lot?). <P>When you have these discussions do you do anything to make it extra safe? Give him some nonthreatening way to tell you to slow down?<P><BR> -- Jeffers</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for support everyone, I have 'felt' him leaning this way for a long time. The reason he doesn't want to listen to me, is that way down deep he knows I am right...but as Chris123 told me...do I want to be right or married? So I know I can't push, or teach...and I will try to go slow.<P>To Jeffers...yep, yep...I should have changed my name to DesperateInCali a couple of times ...and it does make him retreat...make him feel smothered.... One part of our 'conversation' I didn't put in, was a bit about how when he is angry and how he yells (talks loud) when we have an argument...just like I have a hard time 'not' teaching or preaching...He asked how we could 'stop' that...I said either do just what he did...point it out to me (and notice I did not get mad, but acknowledged it, regrouped and rephrased) or we could come up with some kind of signal...<P>So yes...I was also heartened by this...because it has happened a couple of times...he points out when I am repeating an old behavior (tape), I don't react with anger, or frustration....but stop, acknowledge, regroup and rephrase. I believe the acknowledgement part is really important as I am validating what he is saying plus showing that I really have 'owned' my stuff and then I slow down and rephrase it....<P>I told him we can 'tear a strip' off each other for the 'sins' we have committed or we can agree we both have done wrong and figure out how to do right...<P>Okay, he reads basic concepts....fills out questionaires...and I let him lead the conversation? we read each others' questionaires??? <P><BR>Cali<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> One part of our 'conversation' I didn't put in, was a bit about how when he is angry and how he yells (talks loud) when we have an argument...just like I have a hard time 'not' teaching or preaching...He asked how we could 'stop' that...I said either do just what he did...point it out to me (and notice I did not get mad, but acknowledged it, regrouped and rephrased) or we could come up with some kind of signal...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Interesting point! Giving your spouse the "cue" when something makes you uncomfortable sounds like a very effective manuever. Sure beats harboring resentment or lashing out blindly. I LIKE this. I'll need to fold this "hint from Cali" in the messy drawers of my mind.....LOL! <P>You and yours have my very best wishes for a bright tomorrow...<P><P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

Time, cali, time. Just take plenty of time, go at his pace, sounds like you have done some hard work, but he needs to know it is permanent, then he can see how he feels about it. I can't tell for sure from just your post, but you sound like you are controlling the conversations too much. This happens to me all the time and I really hate it, devalues me. You teach, you have all the answers, and that comes through (whether true or not). When the part about what marriage is like came up, why didn't you simply ask him what not married looked like, and how would it work so cali was not over-worked.....instead you boxed him in, not good. You can run rings around G, both he and you know that, and that is part of the problem, a big part I would guess. Your skills are admirable cali, and I am sure your H admires and values them, but they have a dark side, as you now know, be careful with that. The goal here is to empower your H to choose you, not to convince him to choose you, the 2 are closely related, but the difference is huge. As for the part of going over the top, I don't think so, it felt good, I think he liked it too, you were vulnerable..... but don't get too carried away will then be seen as manipulative....Good luck.

Cali:<P>A door has opened, so Plan A has helped. Despite some of the deviations <smile>. Perhaps this is the time to remember Max Ehrmann's 1927 classic, Desiderata:<P>Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.<BR>As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.<BR>Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.<BR>Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.<BR>If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.<BR>Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.<BR>Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.<BR>Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere, life is full of heroism.<BR>Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is perennial as the grass.<BR>Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrender the things of youth.<BR>Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.<BR>Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.<P>Hope these words help.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hi Cali,<BR> OMG! Your H sounds soooo much like my H when he was going thru his crisis! It's amazing that when they say they want to leave, they can't stay away from home??????!!!! Go figure! It's just another sign that there is a bit of teenage rebellion swirling around in the mix. Add in the "don't try to tell me anything , I can figure it out myself" and you've just got more confirmation that these men are in a MLC but deep down inside truly know where they need to be. Their needs just need to melt in with their wants.<P>You know, as hard as it is to take SNL's comments, he is offering you an enormous amount of insight. Let me ask you.....How long do you want to be separated? ( after my H was gone, and I got used to it, I wondered about that ? myself , as I ended up actually enjoying the 'alone' time ) You must stop the bantering if you want to limit the amount of time he is gone. REALLY let go and let him find his way on his own. He'll find it.<P>My H read the first part of SAA. It shocked him into seeing that his A was nothing original or special, something he didn't realize when he was caught up in it all. But, you know what? I could never get him to finish the rest of the book and believe me, I tried. He knew about this place, but would not come here. When he finally got it straightened out in his head...on his own, his response was that he didn't need a "plan" to know what he needed to do. It bothered me for a long time,I wanted him to know what I knew, as I knew the MBers way would help us a great deal in rebuilding. It was hard for me to let my "notion" of how to recover go. I was ultimately reassured in his ability to participate in recovery when I could see that he was reestablishing his relationship with God and was truly repentant and not just "sorry" for what he had done. I ended up feeling that if he was willing to be accountable to God and follow His plan for marriage, despite his unwillingness to follow any kind of earthly "plan", we actually had the best shot at recovery I could ask for.<P>There is risk involved in trying to educate. The biggest risk is that your H may go along with your attempts to educate and may read all of the MBers stuff and agree to reconsile, yet still feel "led" by you. Down the road that could cause him to feel that his decision wasn't really all his, that his process of discovering what he wanted was influenced too much by you. You don't want that. You want him to find his way completely on his own. He knows where we are, he knows how to get the information, let him do it all by himself. If later today he wants to talk about it, just give him the info and tell him that you are glad he is interested and look forward to hearing what his opinions are about it all and leave it at that and let him come to you to talk about it further. That way it is ALL of his own volition and it can be something he feels good about. You don't want him to come to you a few years down the line and say "the only reason I came back is because you brainwashed me with that MBers stuff." You don't want him to come back for any reason other than it was what he really wanted to do. For that is the only reason that will give you a reasonable guarantee that he'll stay there.<P>I wouldn't remind him of what he promised, or that he's throwing away his family. If he doesn't know that now, he'll figure it out.He has occassions like your beach trip to educate him on that, you don't need to say a word. Just live your life. You want to show him that you are strong and capable of doing life without him, but that you'd rather have him with you. It's all up to him but you won't wait forever. That will give him the motivation to do the work inside himself to figure it all out. If he thinks he can go on indefinitely in this comfortable arrangement he's created now, you run the risk of remaining in this "holding pattern" for God only knows how long. You have to find the gentle balance of motivating him with your own actions and leaving the education part of it up to him. You are on the right track my dear! Keep up the good work!

Cali,<P>You ended your last reply with a question? Although you seem to be right on track, I have to guess that the question is, what comes after the EN questionaire? This is sort of where we are stuck, too.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustPlainCali:<BR><B> <BR>Okay, he reads basic concepts....fills out questionaires...and I let him lead the conversation? we read each others' questionaires??? <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess a lot of people have already said to go slow. SnL refers to the dark side as a comeback to your Yoda quote to him a while ago (at least I think it was you, lol). <P>When I found out there were such things as needs and that I wasn't meeting them I went into hyper need-fulfillment mode and followed my W around 24/7 trying to fulfill the needs I guessed she was missing. It was smothering her and she was pushing me away and I was chasing harder.... This went on for 2 weeks (bad). I think I was frantic to see some magical result after applying my newfound information.<P>At that point I suggested we do the questionaire. I thought it was a huge step for her to agree to do it. It took us<BR>2 more weeks to actually do it (I left it up to her to tell me when she was ready). It was very difficult not to keep pursuing her about it. (hint, hint) <P>I was REALLY worried about the EN session turning out badly - LB's, blame, etc. I was prepared to do everything separately to avoid that: i.e. exchange forms, go away and read them, form questions, get back together again, etc. That would be the most non-confrontational thing you could do (very safe). But then, I have a very low threshold for discomfort.<P>Our session really turned out to be very loving, I was surprised. Nothing came up but the ENs - I thought this was very important. She told me I WAS smothering her, but that I had backed off a little. I said, "Yep, I can meet these needs, is this way o.k.?" (almost verbatim)<P>I don't think I was doing it a lot different afterwards, but I think that since she had given me "permission" to meet some of her needs that it no longer seemed I was smothering her. I also calmed down a lot too, and that helped.<P>This is sort of what Harley says, I guess. Hopefully your H will tell you which needs he will allow you to meet. I think the permission aspect is important. That's where he gets some control.<P>I think talking about ENs is the most positive thing anyone can do (at any stage of a M). <P>I'm tempted to say that you're the one that knows your H the best. But, right now he's not behaving (or thinking) according to the old patterns. If you don't know what might happen you've got to be as safe as possible (well, that's my approach). <P>You always seem to be way ahead of us. So, if that's the case, then this is just my long-winded way of saying we support you. You go girl! (gently) <P> -- Jeffers<P>

Cali...<P>Im a teacher too...ONE lesson at a time!! Don't overload the circuits, not too much homework!! Whet the appetite for knowledge and emotions, but don't drown him!! Teach, practice, and quiz...no final exam after only one chapter ok?!!<P>Trueheart