I have only one question for you, Why are you STILL THERE if your are so unhappy?? OK well two, What is keeping you there with your wife?? <BR>Maine<P>I am not trying to open a can of worms, I am frankly curious as the what is keeping this person there, since he is SOOOOOOOOOO Unhappy?<P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

Maine:<P>Fog and fence sitting yields splinters that you cannot find.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Husband, please answer the questions so I can read them and be one of the other people. There is much to be said and viewed. I love you, wife.

Why am I still here? I have been "here" 28 years, 23 married (with one serious, but not to long break-up, for same reasons, feeling neglected, during dating relationship). Is it time to end? I thought so, I am not happy, and neither is wife, when I agreed to divorce (in March) she declined, so here we are. You might ask the same question at random of many couples, psychologists tell us the majority of marriages are unhappy. I suspect in part it is an emotional inertia, humans reist change, and a long-term marriage (or short term even) has a life of it's own. It takes emotional action and emotional risk to end it, even if that is the best..... many cannot muster the courage to do so, maybe I am one of them, the ow is also in same circumstances, and lacks the courage. This is one of the things I have been trying to understand in my posts about nature of marriage, why are "we" so reluctant to end marriages (not including kid issue, which is of course another issue while being raised). It seems to me the best outcome for us all is deeply bonded intimate relationships. But that notion threatens all the marriages that settle, or accomodate for less, it is hard to find that kind of relationship, so people give up and just accept what they have as better than nothing (to one degree or another). We justify that settling with all sorts of things, cultural expectations (peer pressure by community and family not to divorce), religion (God does not want it), coercion (I will keep the kids, and all your money, reputation...and so forth and so on. When what we really should be doing (and to it's credit, where MB focuses) is assuring people are in passionate marriages, and if not, encouraging them to end them so folks can try again, and be happy. Happy is not a 4-letter word, and marriage should not be "work". That is a stupid concept. Yes people have interpersonal issues, but they are easily resolved when people do have that passion for each other. The "work" comes, when people really don't fit very well, and they have to try and make it work. So they are expected to spend a lifetime making it "work".........why?<P>What is keeping me? All the above I suppose. I don't want to hurt her, she says I am killing her. The possibility I might be screwed up somehow, and that MB could somehow cure that. As well as an over-developed sense of fairplay, and a propensity to "own" other peoples feelings, so I feel guilty if my choices make her unhappy, and I don't want to feel guilty. And for the record, she does have some things that attract me, and meets some of my EN's.<P>This is such a strange place to be, everywhere I turn (so to speak, emotionally, psychologically), I am told I am wrong. That implies I am no good, unworthy, and somehow fundamentally a bad person. That I need to be on drugs, or rehabilitated (MB wise), and how can I possibly not love my wife. I use to wonder how people could kill themselves, or just disappear (run away), I no longer wonder, and that is scarey in itself. I think most of us are survivors deep down, and an A is a survival action in many cases. A desperate attempt to save oneself from emotional death. That is why IMO ws seem to be in a fog, and change personality, when you would rather be dead then continue on as it is your taker is fully in charge and that means you appear to care about nothing other than yourself, it is literally life or death. Since hopefully most won't actually suicide (that is counterproductive, and creates a whole new set of problems), they instead "run" away, whether to another person, or just away. If my w agreed (in good faith) that we do not fit very well, and do care about each other, and would make better exspouse friends than spouse, I would seperate. But bs rarely do that, my wife has said clearly she does not need passion, she will settle on the basis of our history, and will try to meet my needs better......sounds like a business deal.....big yuck. Whereas I think the standard should be if we were single would we choose to date each other now. No one would try to "make" someone dating them continue to do so, would only want it to be what they want, but for some strange reason we expect differently when married, then we want committment honored, that only makes us emotional property. I cannot see anyway for an intimate relationship to be anything but something that is chosen (by the heart, not the head) everyday. Yet I know many settle for the business deal and explain away the lack of passion as unnecessary.... so why be married at all? Just the sex? Just the security of a responsible roomate to carry the load? MB requires emotional honesty, yet when I say as civily as possible, I would not date my wife, she cannot deal with it. So what do I (anyone do), just keep that to oneself, go through the motions, and never tell that truth? It is what the ow intends to do, and has done for 20+ years, and says she can keep doing, I don't understand any of this. It is one of the biggest reasons I am unhappy, I know my wife does not love me this way, she needs me, for her, for what I give her, not because of who I am. If someone really loved someone, wouldn't you let them go, without the anger and illwill (the I will never be your friend crap if you leave, but oh gee, if you stay I will just love you to pieces, so many of you are such hypocrits). <P>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 08, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 08, 2001).]

SnL,<P>You have shown what is in your mind and heart. That is good. Now I ask you, what are you contributing to your wife and family that is of value? <P>Could it be that your emotional void is partially due to the fact that instead of obligation you need to give out of love, concern, care and loyalty?<P>Ws's say a lot about not wanting to hurt their mates and families, yet if you watch their actions, no greater has been inflicted upon those families than what is directly received from the WS. Now why the statement when the actions are clearly in the opposite direction? <P>Hm...... Ws's talk about caring for their mates but not 'in-love'. What does that care mean and when does care stop and 'in-love' start? You need to explain your statements not just make them. Not just you but all Ws's. Your words are very confusing to the rest of us. Even to others who are not the BS. <P>L.

SNL,<P>I always find a lot of insight from your post. Yes I do still believe in the WS fog, but can see that we all tend to live in a world of our own hopes and dreams. <P>My question for you is on the 'hurt' issue. I have seen many times, from you, other WS and my own H the statement that you do not want to 'hurt' your spouse and feel guilty that the hurt is there. Just a thought for pondering...could it be that instead of saying that you are sorry for creating the hurt and that you wish it had not happened, that you are ACTUALLY saying that you just wish that your spouse would not have feelings of hurt of pain for the things that you have done. Many times it seems that my H is not saying that he is sorry for causing the pain, just sorry that I cannot deal with it in a way to alleviate some of the pain for myself. <P>This seems like an inability to admit some of his own shortcomings in creating the hurt and pain, and turning it around on me because I feel hurt.<P>I would appreciate your insight.

OK looking beyond the big words your scared right. And for the record i did not ask why your OW is stillinher marriage, it is not an issue i wanted to know. It is really hard at times to simply understand you. You throw SO much deep thought, and you talk in SUCH HUGE wordings that it is hard to find the simple answer. How hard is it to say your scared, your not happy, she is not happy ECT...<BR> "you might ask the same at random of many couples" I was asking you, i was very interested in your answer.<P>You have so many POINTS as to WHY your there, community, family, ect, but you seem like the type to do what you want when you want as you want it. Is it that hard for you to reach Inside YOURSELF and figure out what you WANT without answering a question with text book answers? <P> " Happy is not a four letter word, and marriage should not be work" Where did you get the nugget of info?? All things in life worth having take WORk, Hard soul searching, wonderful work. If you got happy handed to you on a silver platter, what would be the prize in the end. I made the mistake of thinking that MARRIAGE is not work, it JUST IS, and the Prize i got was a WH. I willnot make that mistake ever again. Fixing my marriage has taken a lot of change, a lot of sacrifice, a lot of understanding, a lot of LOVE. But WE both needed it and wanted it. And i am planning on WORKING on it every day until i take my last breathe.<P> YOu say your wife has some things that attract you and fills some of your needs, Are you filling hers, or even wanting too?? SOmething is not letting you RUN to the OW at this moment, be it feeear, duty whatever. You have the chance to TRY to make it work. But to do that YOU have to want to, and YOU have to SACRIFICE and start from the bottom. It can be DONE, The Question is is that what you want.<BR> BTW i know about DIVORCE at 50, My parents did that, and that Pain was harder than anything, and something we all still deal with. I saw them BOTH raw for years and then they finally took the step to end it. It was Painfull. I would not wish that on anyone ever. Your old enough to figure out what you need to do to be happy.<BR>God Bless you and your family<BR>Maine<P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

Sad_n_lonely, I told him last night to go. I have asked him today if he wants to to Plan B. I am letting you go dear, go and see what you can find. If you are so miserable I don't want you, find your passionate love and go for it. The chance of the next marriage making it is very slim. Especially if H and OW get together. Jennifer has told husband there is no chance what-so-ever of the two of them making a marriage last. <P>As far as giving Husband space, he has space. He talks to her on his cellphone outside of home and the home in his bed. He goes on service calls without calling in for hours. He has had the house to himself the last 4 days during the garage sale. <P>There is a computer room, where I need to be also, the fax machine and copy machine is there. There is a computer besides his that I use occasionally, because my computer is upstairs and when I watch the phones and do the business it is not convenient to be upstairs where the phone is not placed. <P>Yes he is in a deep FOG and seems to place the blame on me and the marriage. Dear, do you see you are not thinking clearly, and have tried to justify your actions with the OW. You need to make a choice and do it soon. Time is running short for the middle aged people we are. I know you feel that I do not love you, but that is not true. Jennifer feels that I do love you. Hope you try to open up someday. Maybe Plan B is what is best. If you don't come back that is your choice too.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thinker:<BR><B> I have asked him today if he wants to to Plan B. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, dear.<P>Sigh.<P>You don't ASK your H if he wants to go to Plan B, and it isn't to be used as a threat.<P>You try Plan A first, and then, when you simply cannot Plan A anymore, you move into a seamless Plan B. Please, please, please, pour over the concepts found here... read them until your eyes go crossed and don't DO ANYTHING until you understand them. The biggest mistake I made in my past marriage was doing a clumsy Plan A until I couldn't take it anymore. End of marriage, end of story. <P>You both are in so much pain, and for that I am truly sorry.<P>

Yes husband says that there are things that attract me to him. That fills some of his emotional needs. I don't seem to get many needs filled, husband says that is the way it is now that he cannot share with OW and Me. I feel we make a good pair, his faults I have good, and vice versa. <P>As far as making a marriage work. In the books the marriage is in honey moon stage for about 6 months. Then it is work. But husband does not see the picture. He feels him and the OW would have passionate, caring marriage without work. Come back to reality Joe. We could have the same, but like said earlier, it takes 2. You are coming around the bend where a decision needs to be made. Whatever your decision could cause great pain. Divorce is the most evil hurt ever. Read the boards, for all. <P>Your OW is out there supposedly making her marriage work, I don't know how with communication with you. Why don't you do the honorable thing, if you love her like you say you do, and let her go and work on her marriage the right way. I still don't understand why she doesn't just not answer your calls and leave it be. You will eventually quit talking and move on with our live together. This is where I feel the woman to be screwed up and not being honest with you and using you. But you have to decide. She seems dishonest to quite a few of us. <P>Sit down today and really think about what you are doing to this family. What you are doing to yourself and the OW family. Her husband will know, and I hope it is very soon. I would tell, but was told by Jennifer not to say anything as yet.

Thinker, <P>When I said give him space, I meant SPACE. Away from family. H is threatening you with all sorts of stuff. Are you ready for him to put his money where his mouth is? <P>I took the brunt of my H's 'threats' for 1 month. Told him he should go have his space and he and OW jumped for joy (a bit inconvenient for him )and moved out. Came back within 1 week and asked to move back in. Waffled that way for 4 months. Asked to move back many times and actually tried it twice. It is hard I know, your H needs to stop threatening and put some action behind all those words. However, you need to be able to handle that decision. <P>Going to plan B is your decision not negogiated with your H. You go there because you need to be there not for his convenience. Read up on the SAA and his needs/her needs book. <P>L.<BR>

bmw...My question for you is on the 'hurt' issue. I have seen many times, from you, other WS and my own H the statement that you do not want to 'hurt' your spouse and feel guilty that the hurt is there. Just a thought for pondering...could it be that instead of saying that you are sorry for creating the hurt and that you wish it had not happened, that you are ACTUALLY saying that you just wish that your spouse would not have feelings of hurt of pain for the things that you have done. Many times it seems that my H is not saying that he is sorry for causing the pain, just sorry that I cannot deal with it in a way to alleviate some of the pain for myself.<P>snl...No, I am sorry I am the cause of the pain. I did my wife a grave diservice when we married, I did so not accepting her as she was (and she has issues she readily admits too), I thought I could fix her emotionally if I loved her (gave her myself). Yes she had responsibility for marrying under less than ideal emotional circumstances too (committment wise), but there is no escape, I understood better the issues, this is all my fault. And if I stay it will be because of that guilt, that is the war my taker is fighting with my giver. My giver has been in charge (more or less) for 28 years, and is very powerful, I don't know how to live the rest of my life like this, and my taker refuses to trust my w (figures she is just saying the words but will not/cannot change, and her actions seem to validate that conclusion), so I will probably just self-destruct. My taker may not be powerful enough to leave, but is strong enuf to destroy me. What my w refuses to understand is that she must just let me be, to decide this stuff for myself, I guess my taker, and my wifes taker or in mortal combat. I just sit by wondering why I should even bother trying, no one is intersted in me anyways, just what I can do for them. Better to just be alone, and expect nothing from anyone.<P>maine...Happy is not a four letter word, and marriage should not be work" Where did you get the nugget of info?? <P>snl....not a nugget, is my conclusion, if marriage is nothing but work and pain, I don't want it. Work is a word we generally use to mean something we do, but don't necessarily want to a lot. Like I have to work so I can eat. I suppose we each mean something a little different by the word, but IMO a marriage should be a lot more fun than it is work, else why do it?<P>maine...Fixing my marriage has taken a lot of change, a lot of sacrifice, a lot of understanding, a lot of LOVE. But WE both needed it and wanted it. And i am planning on WORKING on it every day until i take my last breathe.<P>snl....why do you want to be married? Why to this man? And if you could do your life over, with the skills you now possess, out of all the men in the world, would you pick this one? Why?<P>maine...YOu say your wife has some things that attract you and fills some of your needs, Are you filling hers, or even wanting too?? <P>snl....filled many of hers for years, not so many lately for sure. And no, I don't want to anymore. But the MB say if I "just do it" that will change, so what do I know, guess I just have to walk on down to the reprogramming station.<P>maine...BTW i know about DIVORCE at 50, My parents did that, and that Pain was harder than anything, and something we all still deal with. I saw them BOTH raw for years and then they finally took the step to end it. It was Painfull. I would not wish that on anyone ever. Your old enough to figure out what you need to do to be happy.<P>snl....what did this mean, they were miserable for years (living the picture of marriage for everyone but themselves?), and then divorced? The pain of a dysfunctional relationship is always bad, guess that is the whole point, to take action of some kind to end it...right? (be it repair or divorce). People should be happy...correct?<P>maine...God Bless you and your family<P>snl...thankyou, and hope your life works well too.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 08, 2001).]

SnL,<P>I will say this again. You can choose to sit on the sidelines and wallow in self pity. Or you can choose to work for the interests of your family, put forth effort to satisfy the needs of your family and they in turn will satisfy yours. Real effort, not that half hearted one. <P>My MIL had an 11 year A. During that time her commitment to her family was half hearted, she even would speak to others with her head hanging down. Was a normal way of life for her during those 11 years. Then after her 2nd H died, she picked herself up. Oh yes, she had already stopped the A but it took a while for her to pull back her dignity. Now she is one of my supporters and checks up on me regularly. She loves her son but tells him that he needs to straighten himself up. <P>See where this is going? As long as you wallow in self pity, you will want to leave and look for any reason. Will you always have a reason to leave? Yep (we all do), so does your W. Will you allow yourself to validate those reasons? That is up to each of you. <P>L.<BR>

Thinker,<P>I've been reading you and your husbands posts. I noticed one thing that I wanted to point out to you in hopes of helping your marriage.<P>You seem to be trying to educate your husband about affairs and all of the processes. Believe me when I say, that won't work. You can talk til you're blue in the face and he will not see unless he's ready to. <P>Just an idea to maybe help!<P>Lots of luck to you! <BR>Mitzi

Husband says this a lot. Just leave him alone with OW and let them figure it out themselves. If the OW husband knew what was going on I am positive the communication would be stopped pronto. Therefore, the husband has protected the OW from her husband so my H can communicate with her. He knows it will happen one day, but he is using all the time left to tape her Voice Mails, and keeping them on tape. Does that sound like a man willing to work on his marriage? He has in the safedeposit box all the e-mails they sent each other, and some are pretty graphic. Does that sound like a man wanting to work on his marriage? I have nothing to hide, no lies, secrets, and etc. But I sure have to live with them everyday. Is this the man who says that he has been loyal to us and has done the work? I cannot say my opinion, or H will be upset.<P>I am finding that since I have started posting on these posts, the tension has really risen. He has not posted things in the right perspective, therefore, I was clarifying the truth. I just got fed up with being on the sidelines, trying to scream and being stifled. He does not like my posting, and has said to stop. You all need to hear the perspective of both spouses. <P>Yes, Sad_n_lonely is a controller too. As you can see by some of his writtings that he talks too extensively and does not get down to the answer. I have asked him questions and he goes on to a 10 minute dissertation (Hee Hee just a scenario) just to get a yes or no answer. Life would be much simplier if he would be honest with all of us including the OW. Life would be pleasant and full of joy and happiness if this was over and we were on the MB path.<BR>Only Husband can make the move, we are all waiting for him, as well as Jennifer. <P>Also, the OW needs to get her marriage going and get on the path when they are done communicating.

For the record, I have not asked her to stop posting at all, I have no idea why she said that, maybe you all can figure her out, I think she is in a fog of her own.

I don't feel I am trying to educate my husband with the affair. I feel I am trying to educate myself. My husband is in a very bad mood now. We have talked very little, and he is still posting. I went downstairs to ask him some questions and he gives these nonsensible answer, yep, nope, he is no good, etc. Like I said eariler, since I have been posting, the tension has risen quite a few degrees. I feel I will have to sit on the sidelines and have my feelings muffled again. To sit there and read the posts and say that is not how it happened. Why does the WS not put the absolute truth into their posts? This is what he wants, me to say nothing and do Plan A and be there for him. I guess I will do that and just literally die inside. <P>I asked him today if he loves the other woman, he said yes. I said if you love her let her go. He said he helped her save her marriage, or work on her marriage, I can't remember the exact statement. He says he is no good, just an a**hole, etc. Why do they demean themselves like that. I have posted that he is a good man but is in a deep fog, and I really mean it. <P>Like I said, posting has caused many degrees to rise quickly. He will get what he wants. I am done posting and we will see how the posts go. If any one of you want to e-mail me, I never thought I would do this but here is my e-mail (Tazziblack@hotmail.com). I hate doing this, but I need some imput from you guys and my husband does not want me on the boards, he feels threatened by my statements. So please e-mail if possible, I will say goodbye for now. If we divorce, I will be back when it is safe to return. This is not a safe place for me anymore, can't get the feedback I tought would be helpful to both of us. Husband wants me out of the boards, he wins. Good luch to all of you and please contact me if you can. I love you Joseph, I have finally decided I am a threat to you and will not respond anymore to the posts. But I will read them and just stuff my feelings deep down. Love ya, your wife.

Why do i want to be married? To this man? And would i chose him again if i had a choice. <BR>#1 I adore being married, i like the comfort of it, i like the companionship, i like the pride in raising of a family, being a good homwmaker, and working for my family. I was raised that married is the right thing, and i feelit is. My short coming was that i thought that once the ring was on the finger the work didnot have to happen.<BR>Why do I want to be married to this man? My H is an amazing person, he is KIND, caring, smart, sexy,silly, worries about me, is the father of our children, is a wonderul provider, SHows his feelings, watches me sleep, brushes my hair, fishes with his son, Is an amazing cook, will do the chores, does not complain, is not selfish, sacrifices for us, did not queswtion it when i asked him to read his need her needs, Goes to church, OH yeah , and he loves me with all his heart sooul and mind. Why would i NOT want to be married to that man??<BR> Would I have chose him again HELL YES, the only thing i would change, is understanding that our needs are important and make sure that we both had them filled, If we had been doing that he would have NEVER had the A.<P>And my divorce statment was just something i felt i needed to say. You are fighting so hard to NOT be married, your MARRAIGE does not seem to have a chance. So if that is what you want to do, and you feel this is a Re proggramming thing, GO, BE with your OW, and let your WIFE heal. Back up what you say and just do it. That is what had to happen to my parents, They had a great life for many years, and then it fell apart and NIETHER of them worked hard to fix it so they divorced, I did not want to be that way I am stronger than that. I feel it was the COWARDS way out. IMHO!!!!!!! Does your OW"s Husband know about you?? And HOW CAN you want to BE with a PERSoN that gives up on a commitment?? Can you actually trust her?? and if so WHY?? <BR>Maine<BR><P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

Anyone who thinks marriage does not involve a lot of work is not living in the real world. They are still in fantasy land where prince charming marries the beautiful princess and they live happily ever after.<P>Real people do work, have problems, help other people. Real families have children, change diapers, cut the lawn, clean the house, worry about finances, deal with job loss, with illness, with relatives, with vandals, with hardship. <P>Life's journey is difficult. The real world is difficult. A marriage partner tries to help his or her spouse by making their life a little easier, selfishly. Think of the other person not of yourself. That's the greatest thing you can do. That doesn't mean think of having sex with the OM or OW to make them happy and make yourself happy. Look around and see who has this fairytale dream existence where there is no work, where the woman stays young and beautiful forever. Where the stress of life does not affect your beautiful lady. <P>Happiness is not something the other person owes you. It is something within yourself. It is the joy that comes from making someone's myserable life happy. It does not come from destroying another person's life. Giving seems to bring more happiness than getting. Those who give eventually received benefits but this is not why they give. A true giver expects nothing in return. A getter just takes and takes. <P>Try to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Imagine their life from the time they were a baby until the time they met you. Imagine their dreams. Imagine their difficulties to be the movie star perfect personality 24 hours a day.<P>At some point in time everyone gets old. What do we have to appreciate in each other then. Is sex still the number one thing? If this dies down is there anything else left. Do the long term memories built together with your prvious spouse have any value? Is it that the betrayal has forever tarnished your brain? Is the EGO and shame too great to bear to great to recover from? <P>Imagine the life with the other woman. Will it be any different a few years from now. Will it be true bliss. Will everyday be like you are in heaven. When she is sick with the flu, sick with a disease, stressed out from work, will she be as attractive? When you are down and out, sick or without a job will she be there for you? <P>What is marriage for anyway? Why did you marry in the first place? Why did you think your spouse was so wonderful when you married her? What changed? Why is the new lady so much more wonderful? How many other ladies on the street seem the same wonderful if they gave you the chance? <P>What is doing the right thing? What does comittement mean? What is love really? What is betrayal? <P>I am for saving a marriage but it can't work if only one side want to contribute to the marriage. Which woman would do a better job in times of trouble? Every person can be wonderful under conditions of play and fun. This is the children's world. <P>Children play, adults work. Great basketball players work and work and reap the benefits. Great musicians, dancers' chess player's, singers, policticans , etc. work and work and reap the rewards. People in happy marriages work and work and realize happiness from this. Happiness comes from responsible work, work that helps to make someone else's life a little better. <P>I disagree that a good marriage should just be fun and not work. <BR> <P><BR>

I can say it quicker:<P>"A great marriage is a labor of love!"<P>--Jeffers