I posted this question in the Plan A/Plan B forum but I don't think they get too much traffic over there...<P>I'd like your stories/thoughts/suggestions (please) for anyone who has had to Plan A while separated, i.e. not living together.<P>I will be leaving the house in the next week or so. We've jointly agreed to do this so that my W can have some time to herself to try to figure out where she wants her life to go from here.<P>I've made it clear that I don't want this to just be an opportunity to get closer to the OM; she knows where I stand on this. She and I have both agreed that we have the potential to have a strong marriage. We both acknowledge that anything can happen in a year. We both agree that this is not a D formality. But she is still seeing OM, and is not ready to commit to either one of us yet.<P>I've been Plan A'ing as best as possible, as much as she will allow... This week is my last to go out with a bang... I'm going to post a separate thread with my ideas on how to MAX OUT the Plan A's individually.<P>But what next? Do I Plan B when I move out? This seems wrong. She wants me to still have contact with her, to be friends, and I'm sure to fill some ENs... Also, she wants me to remain as close as always to my stepdaughter, whom I love as my own child, and who loves me very deeply.<P>I sense Plan A opportunities. I would just like to hear from someone who's been there what to expect.<P>As always, thanks for your invaluable comments...<P>zen

zen - a few thoughts:<P>She initiated this separation for one reason only - to be able to more freely spend time with OM. Don't buy this "time to herself to try to figure out where she wants her life to go from here" crap. Keep this in mind.<P>Plan A is absolutely workable while separated - it just takes longer to demonstrate your improvements because you're not together as much.<P>Plan B when you move out? The textbook answer is yes, if you're close to going into the red in your lovebank account. I think it's worth consideration to go to Plan B even if you're not close to being overdrawn IF you've demonstrated ALL your Plan A improvements and there's little opportunity to make deposits into her bank after separation. The way Plan B naturally fits with separation drives me to this opinion. Others will disagree. She wants you to remain friends so she keeps this return option open.<P>Only you can make the right conclusion. I regret, somewhat, not going to Plan B when my wife moved out. But I didn't know what Plan A/B were then.<P>WAT

WAT sez:<P><B>She initiated this separation for one reason only - to be able to more freely spend time with OM. Don't buy this "time to herself to try to figure out where she wants her life to go from here" crap. </B><P>Maybe I'm being a dullard, but I sort of believe her on this. Her point is that she's been seeing him already even though I've still been there. She says that she'll have the same or less time to see him as she will be taking care of our daughter by herself. But when the girl goes to her dad's house and I'm not there...<P>Would it be a LB to negotiate some sort of agreement to have her not bring him to our house? This is purely unenforceable, but wouldn't it be better to let her know my feelings?<P>Anyway, she _does_ seem to want to try to work on herself. We've agreed to be completely honest with each other. I believe her. Do I need to be slapped around?<P><B>Plan B when you move out? The textbook answer is yes, if you're close to going into the red in your lovebank account. I think it's worth consideration to go to Plan B even if you're not close to being overdrawn IF you've demonstrated ALL your Plan A improvements and there's little opportunity to make deposits into her bank after separation. The way Plan B naturally fits with separation drives me to this opinion.</B><P>Well, I think being "friends" with her fills a conversation EN, an admiration EN, and maybe an affection EN. And she wants me to continue to nourish her daughter, so that a big family commitment EN. And I'm not near the red yet.<P>I don't know... Will you take a look at my forthcoming ENs thread?<P>Thanks,<BR>zen<P><p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited July 08, 2001).]

Zen,<P>I would not go directly to Plan B. My husband moved out shortly after D-Day to figure out what he wants to do. I know he did not do this to be with OW because she is out of town for a few months.<P>Being sperated for a while makes it easier to Plan A. Not so much time together to LB, and when you do spend time together just show her how well you are doing and what she is missing!<P>Would she agree to go on a "date" with you maybe every other week? Give your love a chance to be rekindled? I'm amazed at your perseverance. How long since D-Day?<P>Heck

heckofagal:<P>Thank you for your feedback... Right this second, I'm pretty sure that suggesting a "date" would be a LB. Case in point: I tried to do just this for my birthday, and was turned down, which started a big LB session.<P>But since then, I seem to notice some feelings on her part. It just might be possible to ask her after we separate. I've got the greatest way to do it: For Christmas of 99, she gave me a book of "Love Coupons", stuff like "Good for One Trip to the Movies" etc. I never used them. I'm thinking of using one of them ("Good for One Apology") on a Plan A letter that I'm going to give her when I move out, explaining that I'm sorry for letting the M get to the point where the A happened. I may also save it for a Plan B letter.<P>If she opens up some after we separate, I think it would be cool to go through the book and use up the coupons... ALSO, I can't tell you how many things I've thought about seeing and doing as dates with her since this all started... I have so many regrets... and experiences that I want to share with her...<P>If D-day means "when you found out about the A", mine was in late May. About 2 weeks ago she found out that I knew who it was and all the details. Is that what D-Day is?<P>Thanks,<BR>-zen

Zen, my d-day was 6 weeks ago. H came home for 2 weeks then got an apartment. So separated for 4 weeks (wow, it doesn't seem like it's been that long, but yet like an eternity too.... I guess I was hoping he'd come right back!)<P>Gosh, I'm so sad reading Sad's thread, and some of the others too. Seems like there's no good news today. It's time for some good news...wish I had some. so I'm looking around now trying to cheer myself back up and get some encouragement.<P>So... here I am. Yes, I have been plan A'ing while separated. It's harder because we don't see each other much, and he doesn't like to talk on the phone much either. He's enjoying his freedom. It's not time for Plan B for me yet. I just fill EN's as much as possible, and avoid LB's as much as possible, and I'm working on myself and hopefully the changes are noticible to him. He comments on the changes every now and then, but not enough to wake him up yet. The main thing I have to be careful of is getting angry when I can't get in touch with him or he won't return my call. angry outbursts.... so anyway. That's me. I don't know if that will be a problem for you or not, but just something to think about. You'll be spending less time together, so trying to contact your W may be frustrating to you, especialy if she seems to be ignoring you. My H swears up and down that he is not ignoring me, but then other times he has said "I see your number and I just want my SPACE." <P>As far as your question about whether or not to mmove to plan B or not, I've seen posts say that you WILL KNOW when it is time. When your love for your W is dying (your love-bank almost empty) is the main thing I can think of - and I can tell that your love for your W is still strong. I don't think you are ready for B. <P>See ya'... hang in there<P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Hi Zen<P>I wouldn't go to plan B, yet.<P>She could very well need some time to sort thru this. Also, I don't think that the OM is filling all of her emotional needs. You are still filling some of these. That's good.<BR>It could also, be to your benefit that she does get to spend more time with OM. I mean really get to know him. People don't start to LB in the beginning of a new relationship. Not usually, anyways. Given enough time he will start to to this.<P>I feel that it's important to PLAN A. She will get to see what she is missing and hopefully start to need more fulfillment from you. I don't recommend asking her on any dates and don't always be available to her. Remember, she wants some space to think thing thru. She has told you what she wants. Can you give it to her?<P>Things seem quite positive for you. Don't try to rush it or control your marriage. Keep a PMA when in her presence.

Hi Zen,<P>You've probably read this already, and others have touched on it, but I took this from one of the online articles entitled, 'how affairs begin':<P><BR><B>In many cases, intimacy in marriage becomes so bad that a separation is requested to "sort things out." An affair is often suspected by the jilted spouse, but almost always vigorously denied by the offending spouse. It usually takes solid evidence, like B.D.'s finding her husband in bed with her best friend, to get an unfaithful spouse to admit the truth. <P>I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time. <P>Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings. </B><P>I think the pertinent part of the post is near the bottom where is says a separation makes it easier for the WS to be with their lover. Remember, your WS is a foghead right now, don't put much stock in what she 'says', but instead what she 'does'.<P>Although I do think you are doing what you can here. It may be of benefit, like patient said, that seeing the whole person, and not just the fantasy OM, may help to bring her out of it. Not that that makes anything easier on you.<P>You have a situation similar to mine. My WS said she wanted to work on herself, that she would get councelling, and she never did.<P>Also, tread very carefully on pursuing your WS... As you've found, when you suggested a 'date', you didn't get the reaction you wanted. Careful with the coupons and other ideas, be very patient and build up the Plan A stuff, fulfill those ENs. If you read the 'giver and taker' article, you'll see that she will be the one to return to a level of intimacy first, if you rush it, she'll back down.<P>You know my story, after 2 days of not seeing my WS, she showed up at my work today unexpectedly and gave me a small gift.... Her 'giver' is returning, but I'll let her run with it. I'll let her approach me. It's a long, slow, painful (sometimes) process, but at least in my case, it appears to be working. And remember, avoid LBs at all costs.<P>All the best!<BR>

Thanks everyone!<P>Faith: Thanks and keep it up. Glad to know that you're working on you AND him. I know what you mean about the need for their "space" and am prepared to try to not constantly look at the caller ID and check my messages. To be honest, I will probably see her about the same as I do now... She is always busy with work, and if our step-daughter is not with us (at her dad's), she's been going off to do her own thing, as have I. When our step-daughter is with us (not at her dad's) is when we see each other the most... And the way this separation is shaping up, we both want me to continue to spend lots of time with her, so I may just end up coming over in the evenings and helping with homework, maybe having dinner, taking her on a bike ride, etc., then going to my apartment for the rest of the evening. I hope that this will be good EN time... I'm not sure at what I point I start to modify this to more of a Plan B arrangement... But I guess I'll know it when I feel it...<P>Patient and Redon: Thanks for your wise words also.<P>I am going to tread very lightly. I do think she is really uncertain of the future... she repeated this to me last night... She wants this separation to be about her figuring things out... I'm Plan A'ing my best.<P>Please read my forthcoming post on how to best Plan A in my last week at home...<P>Thanks,<BR>zen

Hi, Zen!<P>Absolutely possible! With or without OP contact. In fact, for some here, (like NSR), Steve Harley recommended Plan A while separated AND while she was with OM.<P>I Plan-a'd for 7 months while Robert was LIVING with PT. It's a bit easier after a while. And, according to him, that's what saved our marriage - my consistancy in love. That's how HE looked at it.<P>He's been home now, btw, for 18 months and we're doing great.<P>Hang in there.<P>Lori

[QUOTE]Originally posted by worthatry:<BR>[B]zen - a few thoughts:<P>She initiated this separation for one reason only - to be able to more freely spend time with OM. Don't buy this "time to herself to try to figure out where she wants her life to go from here" crap. Keep this in mind.>>><P>Sorry Zen but I have to agree with WAT on this one. My H never admitted to his affair until after it was over (constantly denied my suspicions). He "needed to be alone" and said he "didn't want to be with anyone". When he left here he drove right to the OW's house and moved in. Doesn't sound like being alone to me. They all lie so keep that in mind. That said, I kept Plan A'ing while we were separated and eventaully it did work (although right at the end I initiated Plan B which lasted 3 days). Since your wife is at least open to spending time with you (my H wasn't at first) you have a good opportunity there. But since the A is basically out in the open she may also see it as an Opportunity to "have her cake" so she could become very wishy washy. My H started missing me about 6 weeks after he moved out (at least that is when he first old me he missed me). There were lots of ups and downs for the next 3 months after that. Once the revolving door got to be too much for me to handle I started Plan B. He freaked out when he realized he might actually be losing me. So you will have to see how your wife handles this and how much you can handle. Plan A might be enough.

I ask " How can she figure anything out if OM is still in the picture?" All this does is give her more opportunity to be influenced by the fantasy of her relationship with OM. If she TRUELY wanted to separate to "think things out" , then she would separate from you as well as from OM so that her experience would not be biased one way or the other. Her plan is simply a smokescreen to keep having her cake and eat it too. Sure you are meeting some ENs, why else would she want to stay friends. This is your big ticket here. She's let you know OM can't do it all for her,yet she's still enthralled in the fantasy and gets to continue because you are agreeable to continue meeting her ENs to the extent she will allow in Plan A. IMHO this is a crock. She will wake up faster if you let OM meet the few ENs he's able to...remember she's already let you know in an indirect way that he's not the cat's meow,except in a few departments or she would have asked for a divorce not a separation that can allow her the freedom to tryst around a bit longer until you get completely fed up. <P>If she is honest about wanting to "figure things out" then she'll separate from BOTH of you and go to counseling . If not, she's blowing smoke somewhere it doesn't belong.<P>If she agrees to separate from BOTH, then by all means Plan A, if not I would go to Plan B and let OM have at it.She's already indicated that he can't do it all or she wouldn't be hanging on to you. What you do just depends on how long you feel you can tolerate the disrespect of an A flying in your face without losing your love for her.

<B>With or without OP contact. In fact, for some here, (like NSR), Steve Harley recommended Plan A while separated AND while she was with OM.<BR>I Plan-a'd for 7 months while Robert was LIVING with PT. It's a bit easier after a while. And, according to him, that's what saved our marriage - my consistancy in love. That's how HE looked at it.</B>[/QUOTE]<P>Lostva,<BR> I am jumping into this thread to ask a question for my situation, sorry! I'm encouraged by what you said. My H moved in w/OW, left me a note saying the marriage was over, and div. papers were in the mailbox! NO warning, NO "talk", NO CONTACT now for over 7 weeks. Basically, I think he didn't want me to find out about HER, he thought that would "spare" me some hurt. <BR> I have been literally combing everything trying to figure out how to Plan A from NO CONTACT. You are saying it IS possible? I mean, he lives at HER house, SHE probably screens his mail. <BR> I'm afraid that if I send it, and he knows it's from me, he won't accept it. <BR> I called him exactly 3 times (in 7 weeks, is that so horrible?) it was always about an important money matter. He keeps his phone turned off, and even told his son he is "hard to get a hold of cause the phone is off!" as tho I - BIG, BAD WIFE - will actually be able to get through to him, altho I haven't tried. BTW - two of my voicemail messages were *sent back* to me UNOPENED. I mean, he!!, if you don't want to listen, just Farking Delete the dam* things, DON'T bounce them back to me UNOPENED so that I KNOW you haven't listened to them....this was very hurtful (but I guess you can tell) <BR> FairyDust, I can relate....I figured my H would "miss me" too, after about 6 or 7 weeks, BUT it's been that long now, and apparently it ain't happened yet!!! This is the guy who can barely figure out which shirt to wear without my opinion!!!! What the heck happens to them, anyway????<BR> So if I do Plan A long distance, what types of things am I writing about?!? Do I keep it light and "happy" or really lay on the LBank stuff? <BR> I need help!!! I never thought I'd need to know this kind of stuff.....my H was ALWAYS there, never in 20 years gave me a reason to mis-trust or suspect anything. I'm so down........and my birthday is the end of the week. Happy farking Birthday to me. <BR>Lupo <BR>

<B>I ask " How can she figure anything out if OM is still in the picture?" All this does is give her more opportunity to be influenced by the fantasy of her relationship with OM. If she TRUELY wanted to separate to "think things out" , then she would separate from you as well as from OM so that her experience would not be biased one way or the other.</B><P>Well, I agree. I've made it clear that I want the sep to truly be about her -- without the OM, but she has not promised this, nor would it be remotely possible to enforce it anyway. I don't really have much choice, do I? The other night, I said that if me moving out was just a way for her to spend time with the OM more easily, then I wasn't moving out. Biggest LB in recent history. She got so freaked out that she said SHE was going to move out that night.<P><B>She will wake up faster if you let OM meet the few ENs he's able to...</B><P>Well, one the one hand there's him, with lots of $$$, good looks, successful businessman, and a W whom he's had countless A's on... Then there's me: there for her when she was lowest, always supportive of her, not bad looking myself, common interests, *decent* $$$ (right now - I'm aiming lots higher), but most importantly EXTREMELY close to her daughter from 1st marriage. Inseparable. Love that girl like she's my own. She loves me back that way. I'm really good for her, helped her go through her dad leaving and now she is doing really well.<P><B>If she agrees to separate from BOTH, then by all means Plan A, if not I would go to Plan B and let OM have at it.She's already indicated that he can't do it all or she wouldn't be hanging on to you.</B><P>She won't agree to it. To try to get her to is impossible. I think she's depending on him for $$$ now and during the sep. But she HAS indicated that she is torn, that she doesn't know what to do, that we very well may reconcile, etc.<P>I think the problem is that the fog is keeping her from seeing us in a passionate relationship again. I'm afraid she's just unable to envision getting that back. I think she's also scared about $$$ and thinks it will take me too long to make enough.<P>Talk to me! Whaddya think?<P>zen<p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited July 09, 2001).]

My H, left our home 4mos. ago and I just literally found this site. Although I have been counseling by myself,(H tried but decided he's not ready for counseling)I thought I was Plan A'ing but there were alot of angry outbursts on my part, I decided yesterday to try Plan B, but as I read other posts last night I have again dedided to Plan A. Today was a good day so, yes I do think it's possibe to Plan A when you're seperated. My H, is here almost every night to see the kids and me and we do more now as a couple and as a family then we did when he lived here. On the other hand I am very impatient and want my H home now. hang in there and stick to your plan. Hopefully your W will come around.

Zen, <BR>WS and I are seperated, she moved to her parents after D-day. And I can definately plan A. I would say easier on my part too. Much easier for me to avoid LB.<BR>

<BR> <<< So if I do Plan A long distance, what types of things am I writing about?!? Do I keep it light and "happy" or really lay on the LBank stuff? >>><BR> <BR>In the very beginning I woudl send an occasional card to his work and leave an occasional voicemail message. At first I kept it very light, although I would always end with "I love you and I miss you." Other than that it was always "The dog did this funny thing" or soemthing like that. Things that made him think of what he was missing at home, but not too heavy. As he started to come around I got a little more in depth. Of course by that time I was usually handing him letters I had written him when he came over to viist. Before long he was taking me to dinner... and the rest is history. He never said anything about the letters and voicemails until after we were back together for good. He told me then "I just want you to know how much all of the cards and messages you left meant to me. I was always so happy to get one and it always made me feel good the rest of the day, knowing that you still loved me."

" She got so freaked out that she said SHE was going to move out that night."<BR> It's a manipulation tantrum! So let her be the one to move out, you're not the one having an A, she is. Plan A is not about letting WS manipulate you with threats. You have a better chance of saving your marriage if she has to deal with some reality in addition to her fantasy. My own H left for 2 months and honestly worked on himself in counseling and OW was out of the picture, the separation lasted 2 months and now he says it was the most horrible time in his entire life. <P>From the sounds of OM all he has going for his lying, cheating self is $$$$$$$. That doesn't buy happiness. Do not let that intimidate you one bit. Guess who the better man is YOU. Better yet she knows it!<P>You say she won't agree to Plan B!!!!!! She doesn't have too. That's not up for POJA when WS is in the midst of an A! <BR>