In my case, the OW and her husband were separated. Her husband was living with his mistress. My H's OW followed us here from our previous congregation (he is a pastor). I did write a letter to her husband that was very matter-of-fact, primarily because his children were in the house when my H and the OW were together. I felt he had the right to know.<P>I never did get any feedback from him. I think his son intercepted the letter, but I do not know. That was last September.<P>I do also believe the spouse should know. It allows him or her to make choices for himself or herself that the betraying spouse is taking away from them.<P>jmho<P>God bless!<BR>tearfulnomore

Listen:<P>I read posts on this board every day by people STRUGGLING to make M's work using MB techniques. Whenever I read a post and think I can help, I take the time to write a reply.<P>I don't know any of you from Adam (as my mom used to say), but I sure do feel what you're going through, and I sure do believe in these principles. I really believe that they work.<P>So how can I sit here and tell perfect strangers what to say and how to act and to hang in there in an attempt to share what I've learned from MB, then sit back and not share this same knowledge with the W of the OM that my W is seeing?<P>I don't now how I'm doing that, because that is exactly what I'm doing: not telling. I'm afraid of the consequences.<P>I'm thinking myself a coward, now. As much as I detest the OM, his W deserves a chance to try MB on him to save THEIR marriage, never mind mine. They have a child involved.<P>I've heard my W disparage the OM's W. She wants to hate her. Of course she does. OM has even said she's a good person. But I think the fog has led my W and OM both to believe that their spouses are great people, just not right for them, where the passion lies.<P>Still don't know the answer...<P>zen<BR>

I would love to tell the other Husband's wife but I think she already knows her husband fools around and tries to watch him every minute. But my wife fell for his trap knwoing he was a person like this. He was a policeman. I would love to tell his boss but there is a risk that the information will get out and embarass my wife if her family finds out. I would like to get the guy fired even if my wife did consent because he set the whole thing up.

Dr, Harley is very clear on this subject. This kind of secrecy in a marriage is never good. Who should tell? The ws. However, if they will not of own free will, 2nd best choice is to tell them someone else will inform their spouse if they do not (in some short timeframe). It really makes no difference who tells I suppose, the point is converying the knowledge. It should be done in a thoughtful caring manner, and since usually the BS does this, you would think they know the pain and would be caring enuf. I would think directing them to this site, and sending a copy of SAA might be thoughtful. The purpose is marriage restoration, any marriage with this secret in it is not a marriage, it is a sham. As a community it is hard to imagine an excuse not to tell. Most of the reasons (for and against) I read in this thread had to do with manipulation, outcomes desired in "their" (the tellers) life, that is the wrong focus. It makes no difference the consequences to the teller, the point is the revelation is the right thing to do, and if you happen to be the one who knows, the duty falls on you. <P>If one needs actual "reasons" I can supply a few.<P>First an affair is a public health issue. In that the unknowing transmission of std's can occur. This is unacceptable in a civilized society.<P>Second, affairs threaten the stability of the very fabric of society, to the point you can even kill someone over this and be exonerated legally. This affects all of us, so anyone can tell, and it is not interference.<P>Third, it is a be your brother/sisters keeper issue. It is in the best (psychological) intersts of all parties, that full disclosure occur, so we are obligated to tell.<P>Harley's correctly (IMO) assert affairs are a natural consequence of human psychology. That an affair has occured, is a troubling event (for everyone involved), but it is not that it occured that is the issue. It is what comes after. An affair should lead to a hard look at the marital circumstances of all involved, as well as a hard personal assessment of the individuals involved. This must happen for proper growth and healing. It cannot when secrecy is maintained. Marriages may end, or the may heal, but whatever they do, they cannot do it correctly without full honesty, so the unknowing bs must be told, for everyones benefit.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Dr, Harley is very clear on this subject. This kind of secrecy in a marriage is never good.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>B-Bu-But... Hurting Deeply really hit the nail on the head with the POJA... I think Harley would honestly say what HD said... <P>That said, as I said above, I think the BS should tell... but HD is right (I hate when that happens! I wanna be right!! )... the POJA if possible first... <P>If it isn't possible, then it's up to you, the BS...

I was told by OW's H. I didn't have a clue before that and I am very thankful that he told me, I know my H never would have.

sad_n_lonely,<P>While I do share your views about secrecy and the right of the BS to know, my marriage will always come before theirs. I will not do anything to consciously create LoveBusters between myself and my wife. I can't go and save someone else at my own family's expense. It's not my responsibility to try and save the OM's marriage. It's his. <P>I admit there have been many times I've wanted to tell her, but most of those times have been out of a desire to hurt him and get revenge. I want to see his life shattered the way he helped shatter mine. <P>It's a conflict, I know. But I must say that it still should remain a POJA issue wherever possible. Remember, we are interested in Marriage Building with our own spouses. (Thanks Nyneve for backing me up! ).<P>-HD

HD, I recognize the conflict, our own self-intersts (ie marriage) above the common good (and telling is about the common good). Sort of like if our child commits a serious crime, do we turn them in? And let the screwed up criminal justice system decide their fate? Or do we violate the common good and take care of our own (conceal them)? That is always the question isn't it. It is in part philosophical, one can make the argument that if you do the right thing and your marriage suffers, then it was not right (the marriage) anyways. One can argue that doing the right thing always gaurantees the best outcome, even if it does not "feel" like it. Now if we could just find those rules that always gaurantees we are doing the "right" thing........ rumage, rumage....drat, I know those rules are here somewhere, if I could just find them.<P>Of course the alternative is simply to have someone else tell them, guess it does not have to be the BS, should be their own ws anyways for best outcome, and usually will be (according to harley), when it is clear if they don't someone else will.

<B>The only reason any BS would tell the OP's spouse about the affair would be to be mean and cruel and to get the OP back for what the OP did to the BS. It would be sheer REVENGE, and nothing else.</B> <P>I didn't tell OM's girlfriend. By then, they had split up (though he failed to mention the true reason). I didn't like it that she saw him as a nice guy for breaking it of too late, nevertheless, I didn't want her to feel like I did without reason. <P>If she would have been together with him, I would certainly have told her, and would have considered it doing her a favor. Mainly because I myself am glad I know myself. At least I can choose now fully knowing what went on! I assume she would have preferred a similar kind of choice. <P>But that "favor" wouldn't have been my main motive. That would be to save my marriage. Other motives are there as well: revenge partially. I wouldn't want OM to get away free while I am feeling like this. And I don't deny I would have greatly enjoyed making his life hell. But this has not been a compelling enough reason for me to tell his XGF. Now THAT would have been cruel.<P>So I think: while OP is with his spouse I give you this little rhyme:: <P>tell tell tell tell tell. <BR>She deserves to know and he deserves the hell. <P>But otherwise I agree it is needless. <BR>

I didn't tell the OW's H. I sure wanted to tell him. Yes, partly out of revenge. Also, I do have firm Christian based morals that made me want to tell. I truly felt that he(OW's H) deserved to have the knowledge that I had. I thought he would be able to keep his W in line, possibly. I did tell her(OW) that if she contacted my H at all, I would be at her house with the copies of phone bills to show her H faster than she could bat her eyes. She was pretty afraid that I would show him.<P>A friend of mine pointed out that if he(OW's H) left her(OW) then it would possibly make her(OW) more determined to get my H. So, ultimately, I chose my marriage over revenge or morals. Plus, it would have been the hugest LB in my marriage. <P>It seems that I received advice on this board to not tell, also. Anyway, good thread! <P>Window

HI.<P>Noone has touched upon the reason I didn't tell the OW's husband about her three office affairs. (I have documents that would floor her family and her career.)<P>My h. was #3, but she hadn't ended #2 with "THE BOSS", just added my husband. She had both guys doting on her and alternated days for nooners till they both found out. (Think knee pads in the file room or basement bathroom couch).<P>Here's the reason given to me 2 years ago by VERY WISE friends here who have gone on with restored marriages: <P>It is STILL a good reason two years later.<P>I (the BS), didn't want to do ANYTHING that makes me the bad guy (self-righteous meddler) in the eyes of my h. and the OW. <P>This might have driven them right to each other. She would have immediately called my h. to warn him about her potentially violent husband. My h. would have agreed with her that I was out for revenge and out of control.<P>There are now dozens of people in their profession who know. OW's husband's friends won't tell him, because of his temper.<P>Now, I'm pretty sure she has probably moved on to #4 (another boss) in her new job.<P>She will reap what she sows, but I want it to be in GOD's good timing, when He decides, because He will do what is best for all the many families involved.<P>What I was planning was purely for vengeance, and it would have had repercussions throughout my husbands professional circle, in which he has a major role right now.<P>Instead, we attend functions with our heads high and his arm protectively around me. I smile serenely at dozens of people who cannot BELIEVE that my h. took the high road and confessed EVERYTHING.<P>He RESTORED his good reputation with high INTEGRITY. People he worked with at the old company who have seen how we handled it ADMIRE him for how he came clean.<P>To these people, who we still see at professional and community functions, I look like some kind of pillar of grace and dignity. <P>(I must chuckle- they don't know my fantasies of revenge).<P>---the other way (mayhem a la lizzie), we would have been the gossip of the decade in his profession.<P>Instead, my h. marvels at my Strength and 'CLASS'<P>which I'll take over gossip any day.<P><BR>my five dollars worth,<P>lizzie<p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited July 10, 2001).]

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sadandconfused said:<BR>-----------------------------<BR>I too have struggled with this issue. I think the only thing that is keeping me from telling OM's W is that I am afraid of it coming back to me and being a major LB. Also, call me paranoid, but I am also concerned that the only thing keeping this OM from being with my W on a fulltime basis is that he is still married.<BR>S&C<BR>------------------------------<P>This is, almost verbatim, my feelings on this. I want so bad to tell OM's W, but it would come back to bite me in the a**. What if she leaves him, then he'll have more time to chase my W! That is what inspires me to not tell her. I've though of sending something anonymous through the mail, but opted not too.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>...Keeping a stiff upper lip<BR>-Scarlet Pumpernickle<BR>s_pumpernickle@yahoo.com

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lizzie - I saw your message to me in zen's thread.<P>I cannot refute your argument, above. I can visualize your pride and class. You can make a good argument that you took the high road.<P>I'm not saying one size fits all, here. As Steve told zen - it depends!<P>My view is that more often than not, it's probably a good tactical move to inform the OP's spouse simply because that will expose the affair on both sides, with the possibility that the OP will be motivated to end it. No more complicated than that. Is this a shallow thought process? Maybe.<P>In your case, maybe this wouldn't have been a smart thing to do for the reasons you stated, especially the potential for violence.<P>As I said above, this is a moot point for me personally. My motivation was to air this out for the benefit of those who may need to make this decision. I think it was successful, in part due to your insight.<P>WAT

I am also in the same position of wanting to tell the OW husband that she is having an affair with my H. So I asked if I could tell her husband and was informed of this. 'While you are in Plan A with your husband, which I have been and not quite successful. You should not inform OP spouse. But if you go to Plan B and are ready to accept what consequences come of it, go for it with all the steam you have left.' You will get the pleasant surprise of the OP spouse being thankful to you and confronting his spouse of the affair, or you could get your spouse quite mad at you and say forget it. Or the OP spouse will be hurt so bad that things will not work out for them.<P>I chose with help from counseling to not tell. But the want is there to let her husband know his wife is fooling around again. My Husbands OW is not going to tell her husband. I think this is deceitful and unfaithful to her husband. She is not going to marry my husband, she is committed to her husband (according to my H). She is staying in her marriage with this awful history locked up in her head. One day she could be in a very severe accident and have head injuries. Then all the guts come spilling out. What would her husband think. I worked in a closed head injury rehab. facility. The things that come out of those peoples minds are incredible. The inner core comes out and boy would her husband have his ears full to hear all that she and my H did together. But this is her life and she can run it any way she wants being unfaithful to her husband or not.<P>My H is ending his affair with her. According to his statement last night. But I feel he is hurt by her not telling her husband, and I don't see what he sees in a person that would do this unfaithful thing. I hope he does not think I would do such a thing. I have been quite honest with my husband during our marriage and will continue to be to show my husband that I care and love him. I love you H, and hope one day that you will love me.

After Dday, I debated about calling OW's H - I decided not to because 1) I was afraid he would "kick" her out and then she would be more "available", 2) I feared he might go after my H (I didn't know OW's H and what his reaction could be), 3) Did not want their children to get hurt like mine did, 4) the LB factor...<BR>3 mon. later I discovered contact...H sent no contact letter. OW im'd me few weeks later - told me her H knew all about the A and that they were working on their m, yadda,yadda..<BR>About 3 mon. later - another discovery of contact(would this be 2nd or 3rd discovery???) - I called a number on H's cell, and yep, she answered! I then was subjected to another full battery of her lies - she had not seen my H in 8-9 months(I knew better!), that my H was paging her and would not leave her alone, that her H had had a revenge A and started describing all of the feelings she was feeling - racing heart, etc(the nerve of her!!), etc!!! SO, in my anger I called her H thinking he already knew - I wanted to find out if he knew they were still in contact. WEll, he did NOT know about the A!!!! More of her lies!!! She had told her H that this guy(my H) had been pursuing her, that his wife(me) had found out and I went psycho, was calling her, harrassing her, blah, blah!!!!! At first he was in complete denial and shock, wanted pictures as proof, which I do not have, but I started relating all of the evidence: emails, charges on credit card,dates, phone #'s, etc. I found out some very helpful info: he asked if my H traveled on business a lot - he doesn't - well, his W went on a lot of weekend "business" trips(hello??? is this guy naieve or what???!) and he described a man she had boarded a plane with(not only was it not my H's description, but it was also a weekend my H and I were out of town together). So, from his info I was able to deduce what I had long suspected - that OW was having multiple A's, and probably had been doing so for quite some time. IT helped my H see what kind of person she really is - she also pulled a couple more stunts which helped reveal herself... However, she is an accomplished liar and managed to convince her poor H that there was no A and that I am a psycho!!!!(can you guess how I feel about that woman!!???)<P>Sorry for long story - in retrospect, I wish I had called her H a little sooner, maybe... yet, when I did call, H was not angry at all, he understood. I am glad I called because it validated OW's deceitfulness and manipulations...<BR>Yet, it didn't convince her H that she was having an A...<P>So, yes, I would call OP's spouse...especially if there is continued contact...

<BR>Well My H OW wrote her H a letter and gave it too him (over christmas!) explaining how they (my H and she) had been on the road (this should not have happened as H was on state business) and discovered how much they cared about each other, that she did not want a divorce, just to carry on with my H and continue to live at home etc. My H spared me and did not tell me till after christmas. And everything was going along as they (although I think more she) had planned until I 'started dragging my heels'. She honestly thought I was going to go along with it! Boy...I'm french canadian, lebanese, and scottish; there is enough hot blood here to scorch anything that gets in my way.<P>As for telling, I guess it depends on your motivation. If it is for spite, don't do it. But I do believe that they should be informed, ideally by their own spouse. As stated before, maybe you can tell OP that you will inform if they don't. As for a LB...well I have some issues with the Harley's and some of their ideas. The principles are very good, but there are some that I do not agree with, but that is just me. Is it a LB, well maybe, but sometimes it takes one to get the reality in motion. Just my opinion, but I would have found a way to get the job done.

I agree to an extent. To tell the OP spouse would be a kick in the butt. As for my H OW not telling her husband, she wants it to be kept a secret. She expresses to my husband that she wants to continue on with life like this never happened. Reality needs to be known to this woman, deceitful and unfaithfulness is not acceptable. But I have promised my H I will not tell, until a agreement between us two is made to notify the husband of OW that the affair happened. I don't know how anyone could live life knowing an affair occurred and wants to continue on with life like nothing happened. I could not live and enjoy life according to our Lord. It amazes me she would even ask my H to keep all the stuff they have together a secret from me. This is not a thoughtful person talking, it is a scared rat running away.

Steve Harley told me to tell...Not out of spite, but out of fairness to all involved...