I just wanted to thanks to everyone for you support.<P>I discovered some sad news on Saturday. I have relatives who are mental health professionals, (30 years + each), and confirimed thier diagnosis today with our old marriage counselor.<P>Let me frist say that relatives have been very supportive for me throughout my life, and have never given me professional advice.<P>I asked them on Saturday, if there is something clinically wrong with my W.<P>Yes there is. My W has a character disorder, they did not tell me what it is called, but there is no therapy or drug to help it. Among other things, she is not capable of sustaining a long term adult intimate relationship. This pattern of behavior will repeat its self over and over again ever few years. If I reconcile, in 2 or 3 years she will leave me again, have another affair and come back to me again. They assured me she will come back. They advised me to move on and focus on me and the children (eventually she will push them away and they will end up with me).<P>The Marriage counselor confirmed this, and said in therapy she tryed to covertly focus on creating coping mechinisms for me to deal with the character disorders. If the counselor were to focus on W, she would have withdrawn and stopped counseling. Sh ealso would not tell me what it is??<P>Go figure, maybe I can get it out of Steve tomorrow. <P>I am sad. Mostly because I love my W and want to help her, but there is nothing I can do. <P>I read "who moved my cheese" this weekend. I gusee its time for some new cheese.<P>STL, Rick37, Orchid, WAT, Paint, Cali, NSR, I'll be logging on now and again to say hi and see how everyone is doing. <P><BR>Good luck to everyone and God Bless.<P>JK <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by JK (edited July 09, 2001).]

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JK,<P>Have any of these professionals tests on your wife or are they going on observation alone? I they feel that your wife as a disorder why will they not tell you what it is? It seems that would be important so that you can deal with it.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

I agree with Z...what kind of 'character' disorder can you have that they don't have a name for? Seems like, while they may not have a drug or 'treatment,' that there should be ways to deal with it...<P>BTW...I loved <I>Who Moved My Cheese </I>. But, IMHO, I don't think the point was in finding 'new' cheese, but in allowing for change to occur in your life and tackling old things in new ways... <P>Cali

JK, <P>When my XH was in medical school I used to read some of his textbooks. Very interesting stuff. I recall reading one on personality disorders. They have specific names. There are prescribed ways to handle people with these disorders. The problem with diagnosing personality disorders is that if you look at the list of traits for any one personality disorder, you can probably identify several of your friends/ family who display those behaviors at one time or the other. I’d say that almost every WS and OP appears to have the narcissistic personality disorder as they think only of themselves. It takes a trained professional to distinguish the difference between periodic bad behavior and a true personality disorder.<P>Please don’t write your wife off until you get first and second opinions from professionals who perform the proper battery of tests on her. They should be able to give you specific diagnosis with the name of the disorder. <P>How long have you been married? Did your wife's behavior bother you when you courted her? Or is this behavior relatively new?<P>There is a lot of information out there on personality disorders. My bet is that if you search the Internet you can probably find some very good resources. Find out about the disorders and how people with these disorders and manage their lives and how their loved ones can help them. <P>If it is correct that your wife has a personality disorder, then remember that when you married her you promised, “in sickness and in health until death do us part”. This is sickness. I am not saying that I think you should stay in your marriage no matter what. Just be sure that you are not reacting too quickly.<P>Just my 2 cents.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Stick with your wife and forget about all those specialists...<BR>I have a feeling that you are just tired and you want out...I can understand that...<BR>

OK Here's the deal, I went online yesterday and spend 2 hour researching character disorders AKA Personality Disorders, W has a sprinkling of 5 or 6. Beahvior I notice while we were courting and inthe marraige I chalked up to her being 10 years younger and I thought she would out grow.<P>So Cali and Z they have names, I care not to mention in case she decides to log on I may have legal problems.<P>Z, tests would be inconclusive, it takes years to notice and diagnose these disorders. <P>VBO, THese are not just specialists, tehy are relatives whom I trust and love, Additionally our old marraige counselor of 3 years confirmed the diagnosis.<P>Now, Steve said he is not suprised and belives our marraige can still thrive and be happy if I understand the disorders and work withthe MB principals. However,this takes a monumental task to another level. In some ways it becomes easier to let go and in other ways it is easier to Plan A as I realize it is not her but the character disorder, If I become more familar with the disorders and accompaning behavior I won't love bust. <P>I have some soul searching to do. I can't get help fromthe in laws as I cannot tell them, plus they would think it is a scheme to get custody of the kids.<P>On Saturday I wrote off the Marriage, I felt great all weekend and also on Monday. After talking to Steve this AM I don't feel so good. I am now in a quandry again.<P>I shall return.<P>JK<P><BR>

JK forget about them specially if they are relatives.<BR>If you analyze your own behavior (and I mean if anybody analyze) you'll find some disorder too if you are honest enough. There is not perfect person (or "healthy" as specialist wants us to be).<BR>I know it's hard to keep doing what you need to do, but I believe you received good advice to keep A-planning and go on. I know you are tired and can't see the light but at this point it's about you. If you can't find that strength in you to continue you may give up, but be aware that it's not going to be easier at all. You just need to prepare your self emotionally no matter which way you decide to go. It's still long way to go...Sorry but that's what it is.<BR>You better try to protect your self by working on yourself...<BR>

JK,<P>Please don't leave, you have so much to share with us. You have brought up a very interesting subject. One that I want to learn more about.<P>I know you can't post your findings but can you post the sites you went to? I feel that part of H's problems is within him. I try hard not to reach for the stars on this and really see if he is just a jerk. I keep coming up unfulfilled in this area and while I want to kick him out and just start over, then I see him suffering and want to help. Is it him or me? <P>The police said H had major internal anger issues to deal with. H has said he is confused and angry that he can not come to a decision. Can I hope that he goes with OW and be miserable? I don't know. He says he can never be happy and that hurts me. Why can't I help my H? <P>If you could e-mail me the site info or put it here, I would greatly appreciate it. <P>Thanks,<BR>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited July 10, 2001).]

Does this help your quandry....<P>"In sickness and in health?"<P>If your wife had a degenerative disease like gout, diabetes, MS, or a terminally ill disease like leukemia, you'd be there for her, right? Mental illnesses are no different. You can learn to make allowances for this also.<P>Stick it out, is my opinion!<BR>TnT

I seem to be having trouble logging on, I had to back in from a search on my member name.<P>VBO: I asked our old marraige counselor about me, to see if there are any character disorders, She laughed, and said no, if anything I am loyal to a fault. This is a clincial diagnosis I'm talking aobut, and yes we all have certain "abnormal" chracterisitcs, but not to this extent, not this damaging.<P>Orchid, <A HREF="http://www.mentalhealth.com," TARGET=_blank>www.mentalhealth.com,</A> look at personality disorders. I read them all and figured it out from the symtoms. Also they have some good links, so check that out as well. Anothe good site is teh mental health institute (MHI.com or .org).<P>Trust, I agree, and I have a plan.<P>We have not spoken, since Sunday AM. She called to talk to see if we could work it out amiably. She got me on the cell, First question, "where are you?" I said, Whats up. Now is not a good time for me. <P>I was supposed to call her Monday nigh, Left a message for her today to make a list of what she wants and e mailit to me. She left a message for me to call her to talk about the kids, my weekend coming up. <P><BR>I told her real father about her disorders, andhe wants to help. I am waiting on 2 phone calls fro my relatives and from our old marriage counselor. I want to do an intervention. Have her father, mother set father 2-3 friends and the old marraige counselor meeet here and go to her house and confront her. Let her know she has these problems, have the therapist recommend some course of treatmetn including MB. <P>I figure it's worth a shot, I rather do that then be passive while she goes down the D path. I wil continue to Plan A in the interum. However her father recommends I distance from her some what, for now. I agree. <P>Any comments on the intervention would be appricated. <P>JK<BR>

I seem to be having trouble logging on, I had to back in from a search on my member name.<P>VBO: I asked our old marraige counselor about me, to see if there are any character disorders, She laughed, and said no, if anything I am loyal to a fault, sometimes have trouble recoginizing reality and I am overly optimistic. This is a clincial diagnosis I'm talking aobut, and yes we all have certain "abnormal" chracterisitcs, but not to this extent, not this damaging.<P>Orchid, <A HREF="http://www.mentalhealth.com," TARGET=_blank>www.mentalhealth.com,</A> look at personality disorders. I read them all and figured it out from the symtoms. Also they have some good links, so check that out as well. Anothe good site is teh mental health institute (MHI.com or .org).<P>Trust, I agree, and I have a plan.<P>We have not spoken, since Sunday AM. She called to talk to see if we could work it out amiably. She got me on the cell, First question, "where are you?" I said, Whats up. Now is not a good time for me. <P>I was supposed to call her Monday nigh, Left a message for her today to make a list of what she wants and e mailit to me. She left a message for me to call her to talk about the kids, my weekend coming up. <P><BR>I told her real father about her disorders, andhe wants to help. I am waiting on 2 phone calls fro my relatives and from our old marriage counselor. I want to do an intervention. Have her father, mother set father 2-3 friends and the old marraige counselor meeet here and go to her house and confront her. Let her know she has these problems, have the therapist recommend some course of treatment including MB. <P>I figure it's worth a shot, I rather do that then be passive while she goes down the D path. I wil continue to Plan A in the interum. However her father recommends I distance from her some what, for now. I agree. <P>Any comments on the intervention would be appricated. <P>JK<BR>

I seem to be having trouble logging on, I had to back in from a search on my member name.<P>VBO: I asked our old marraige counselor about me, to see if there are any character disorders, She laughed, and said no, if anything I am loyal to a fault, sometimes have trouble recoginizing reality and I am overly optimistic. This is a clincial diagnosis I'm talking aobut, and yes we all have certain "abnormal" chracterisitcs, but not to this extent, not this damaging or distructive.<P>Orchid, <A HREF="http://www.mentalhealth.com," TARGET=_blank>www.mentalhealth.com,</A> look at personality disorders. I read them all and figured it out from the symtoms. Also they have some good links, so check that out as well. Anothe good site is teh mental health institute (MHI.com or .org).<P>Trust, I agree, and I have a plan.<P>We have not spoken, since Sunday AM. She called to talk to see if we could work it out amiably. She got me on the cell, First question, "where are you?" I said, Whats up. Now is not a good time for me. <P>I was supposed to call her Monday nigh, Left a message for her today to make a list of what she wants and e mailit to me. She left a message for me to call her to talk about the kids, my weekend coming up. <P><BR>I told her real father about her disorders, andhe wants to help. I am waiting on 2 phone calls fro my relatives and from our old marriage counselor. I want to do an intervention. Have her father, mother set father 2-3 friends and the old marraige counselor meeet here and go to her house and confront her. Let her know she has these problems, have the therapist recommend some course of treatment including MB. <P>I figure it's worth a shot, I rather do that then be passive while she goes down the D path. I wil continue to Plan A in the interum. However her father recommends I distance from her some what, for now. I agree. <P>Any comments on the intervention would be appricated. <P>JK<BR>

I seem to be having trouble logging on, I had to back in from a search on my member name.<P>VBO: I asked our old marraige counselor about me, to see if there are any character disorders, She laughed, and said no, if anything I am loyal to a fault, sometimes have trouble recoginizing reality and I am overly optimistic. This is a clincial diagnosis I'm talking aobut, and yes we all have certain "abnormal" chracterisitcs, but not to this extent, not this damaging or distructive.<P>Orchid, <A HREF="http://www.mentalhealth.com," TARGET=_blank>www.mentalhealth.com,</A> look at personality disorders. I read them all and figured it out from the symtoms. Also they have some good links, so check that out as well. Anothe good site is teh mental health institute (MHI.com or .org).<P>Trust, I agree, and I have a plan.<P>We have not spoken, since Sunday AM. She called to talk to see if we could work it out amiably. She got me on the cell, First question, "where are you?" I said, Whats up. Now is not a good time for me. <P>I was supposed to call her Monday nigh, Left a message for her today to make a list of what she wants and e mailit to me. She left a message for me to call her to talk about the kids, my weekend coming up. <P><BR>I told her real father about her disorders, andhe wants to help. I am waiting on 2 phone calls fro my relatives and from our old marriage counselor. I want to do an intervention. Have her father, mother set father 2-3 friends and the old marraige counselor meeet here and go to her house and confront her. Let her know she has these problems, have the therapist recommend some course of treatment including MB. <P>I figure it's worth a shot, I rather do that then be passive while she goes down the D path. I wil continue to Plan A in the interum. However her father recommends I distance from her some what, for now. I agree. <P>Any comments on the intervention would be appricated. <P>JK<BR>

Hi JK,<P>This is something you have to think a lot more deeply about. There are a lot of 'if's' involved. IF the relatives diagnosis is correct, IF she does at they say and continues to hurt you on a regular basis, IF there is no help for her....I tend not to believe 'if's', I prefer cold hard facts. You sound tired and ready to give up - that's OK, we've all been there before, but you know by now that when you feel at your lowest is NOT the right time to give up - instead, take some time out, give yourself a rest from all this. You have to decide whether you are willing to risk being hurt again - whether you are willing to believe that she can be helped - whether you are strong enough to cope with all this. Time, JK, Time - it's the most precious gift we can give to ourselves or to another, and yet it's free.<P>Refresh, renew, recover - then when you feel up to it, think. Ask questions, get answers - proper ones, not 'if's'.<P>hugs, Paint.

Sorry about the mulitple replys, technical difficulties.<P>Paint,<P>i have a renewed sence of hope as I have discovered that there is help for her. It is a long a ardious process that she has to want.<P>I have spoken to the pros and an intervention is serious and a good plan needs to be in place before it happens.<P>I spoke to her about delaying to prodceeding and she is thinking about it. She assured me the the OM is gone and was a mistake, she needs to be alone, but still wants a divorce.<P>I told her we can always get a divorce and in my state after 18 months of seperation it is automatic. She feels that if it offical she will have closure.<P>HA!<P>Back to plan a after I put some more time between us. She wants to talk tonight but I will delay that until tomorrow.<P>ANy thoughts?<P>JK<P>