I printed a bunch (a huge stack) of the concepts from the board -- gave them to my H to read last night - which he did.<P>He's the BS, and I am the WS. <P>I'm not sure why I did all that. I think its because I really want him to understand where I am at, and how I got here. I really am not committed to re-building our marriage. But I don't want a divorce either. We've been living in this limbo land for way too long. He's committed to staying and making it work. I just resist all of his attempts.<P>There are days when I think our future could be so great. We make a good living, own a business, have 3 wonderful kids. We could have a really good future as a family. I just don't want to be a "couple" with him. I start to think - I can do this - I can break it off with the OM and make this work. Then I start to think about my H and I together as man and wife, and it depresses me completely. I dont want him to kiss me or hug me -- and sex is completely out of the picture. yuck. It would be so easy if I could just settle back into this marriage. I just can't.<P>And then I think about divorcing and starting over. I think about buying a house close by so that we can share the kids. I get kind of excited and happy about that. But then I feel horrible for destroying this family and I worry about what it does to the kids. I hate the idea of the reaction of friends and family.<P>I dont want to disappoint everyone, including my OM. But that seems to be all I ever do. I read on this board that it can reach the point of feeling suicidal, and thats where I am at. <P>I feel like I have lost myself. That I no longer recognize who I am or what I stand for. I often think that both of these men are foolish for wanting me. I think that everyone would be better off without me around.

Lexxy...<P>I have a friend in your situation...and it is one of the hardest I think! You have basically got three seperate issues to deal with. OM, H and family, and YOU! Is there any chance you can get away from all of them...sort of Plan B yourself from everyone. You need to decide what will make YOU happy. Leaving your marriage for you is one thing...independent of anyone/anything else for your happiness. Leaving your M for OM, is not going to make YOU a better person, mother, lover, or anything else. You have quite the dilemma and the only way to deal with it is to sort it out!! Are you seeing a counselor just for yourself? I would suggest it. In the meantime, Plan A your OM. You need to limit outside influences in your life as much as possible. You need to figure out who YOU are and what direction your life is going to go. Even your M is on hold, by your own admission of limbo..the reason is that YOU are in limbo. Get some time for you, get some help for you, Plan A the OM. Keep the faith!!<P>*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*<P>Trueheart

Trueheart -- thank you so so so much for your kind words.<P>I was a little bit afraid to post because so many people would be unsympathetic to me. I dont really feel worthy of kindness from anyone.<P>I am in counseling by myself. My H has wanted for us to go together for a long time and I've dragged my feet about it. I know that hurts him, but I cant go because I know that the first thing they will tell me is to break it off with OM. I'm just not ready to do that. It goes back to all the things I've read in here -- that I am not willing to let H meet any of my EN's. I am withdrawn and resentful of him. I cant let go of OM cuz thats the only place I get my needs met. I know I am making life hell for all of us. <P><BR>

Lexxy....<P>We are all deserving of strokes and kindness. Yes, what you are doing is hurtful to everyone. You are still deep in the fog. The reason you must Plan A is that while you are getting your EN met by OM, H has no chance in hell of meeting yours. Your fog deepens everytime you are caught in your self made revolving door. <P>WS have been where you are!! You have to Plan A the OM while you make your decisions about YOU. Anything you decide to do, has to be independent of OM!! We are here to help you, not chastise you!! Keep the faith!! Give yourself and H a chance, Plan A OM, hon!!!<P>*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*<P>Trueheart

Lexxxy,<P>I am the BS. My W is where you are now. My W said she does not want me touch or kiss her any more. She said It would cause false hope. My W tells me that "maybe we are not good together" or "maybe it's not worth fixing". After my W's EA started and I found out, is when she brings up the past 10 years of problems that have occured in the marriage. I know that we have problems, but nothing that a theripist can't help with. She never brought this up before the EA. My W said that she sees great change in me, but can't see herself moving forward at this point.<P>My W said that she does know what to do. Said she does not want a D, but hints about D situations. I think she is confused on what she wants or is afraid to make the move towards D because of the kids and family members. <P>Thank You<BR>It was helpful for me that you to tell your side of the story from a WS's point of view.

Here is something for you to look at.....don't know if it will help......and being a BS....it still made me think.<BR>I found it in the Notable Posts by justhere.....in November of 2000.<P>The following is a series of threats to you and others that result from having an affair. I got it from the book "I Will Never Leave You" by Hugh and Gayle Prather. Though I disagree with a lot of what the book says, this list was the reason I cut off contact with him, and it continues to give me strength when I am feeling weak. It is meant to be read out loud, insert names as necessary.<P>your position in the world<BR>a) Affairs demean my role in the world.<BR>b) Through them, I teach that commitment is a worthless value.<BR>c) I teach that risking another's happiness can increase one's own.<BR>d) I teach that we are not connected and that we can think and act without affecting each other.<BR>e) If my affairs end in divorce, I will complicate my own life and diminish the lives of (spouses involved and all children involved, and other person).<BR>f) This waste may be the only real inheritance I leave behind, if I continue making infatuation my guide.<P>your children<BR>g) Affairs risk the happiness and security of (all children involved), with which they trust to me.<BR>h) Through nothing (children) have done, affairs risk scrambling and entangling their lives at a time when their lives should be simple.<BR>i) Whether discovered or not, affairs remove me spiritually from my children and diminish, if not destroy, my position as their example and teacher.<BR>j) Affairs implant a pattern of betrayal, noncommitment, and lovelessness that would have its effect on (children)'s future relationships, including those with their children.<P>your partner<BR>k) Affairs remove me from the path that (spouse) and I had meant to walk.<BR>l) They risk abruptly throwing (spouse) into humilitating and chaotic circumstances, a blow from which he or she may never fully recover.<BR>m) They threaten to throw (spouse) into pain, confusion, anger, cynicism, and protracted suffering.<BR>n) They threaten (spouse)'s mental and physical health.<BR>o) The risk the loss of our mutual friends.<BR>p) They risk changing forever the relationship that (spouse) and I have with our in-laws and family members.<BR>q) They risk changes to our shared income, standard of living, occupations, and future prospects.<BR>r) I am the one person in the world with whom (spouse) has chosen to remain. This trust would be betrayed.<BR>s) If I now fail to attend to my own healing, I risk the possibility that (spouse)'s life, my life, OP's life, and the lives of(all children and other spouse's involved) will be rewritten as tragedies.<P>your core<BR>t) Affairs are acts of extreme insensitivity that diminish me spiritually.<BR>u) They split my mind between the single purpose of oneness and the scattered goals of indulgence.<BR>v) They make smallness the defining characteristic of my self-image.<BR>w) They raise the physical body to a position of control it is incapable of assuming, thus leaving me without control.<BR>x) They delay, and can even end, the possibility of my experiencing enduring love withing this lifetime.<BR>y) Until I question the value of betrayal, I will not feel a guiding presence in my life.<BR>z) In the world's balance between awakening and sleeping, affairs add my life to the dream of loveless isolation.<P>When I looked at this.....even as a BS.....it hit me right in the face....all the consequences. Why would I want to ever go through any of this....though I am....but I would NEVER especially after reading this....do this to my H my children.....or to myself.<P>Hope you are seeing brighter days in the near future. <P>

Miss Priss<P>How can I have a print out of this. Great article.

Lexxxy,<P>Trueheart has give you somethings to think about. But he has used the concept of Plan A incorrectly. Please go to the "Just Found Out" portion of this site and read either NSR's General greeting or Onegoing's posts. Within there you will find that Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to use on the wayward spouse (that is you). Sometimes when a WS decides to rebuild the marriage they will use the concepts of Plan A to help recover from the damage they have caused.<P>Lexxxy, there is little hope for your marriage if you shut your H out. You have given OM the complete control of you, your H, and your children. That is a dispicable thing to do to your children and your H. It is time you faced the issues and to do that I would suggest that you do two things.<P>Buy two books one Surviving an Affair, by Harley you should read and then give to your H. The second is His Needs Her Needs also by Harley. This book the two of you should read together. <P>If after doing this and talking with your H you feel no need to work on your marriage and still don't have a clue if you will ever want to, then do your H a favor and divorce him but do him the favor of leaving the children with him.<P>So that you can start your new life as cleanly as possible. It would be highly unfair of you to dump a man who obviously loves you, and then take his children and home from him as well.<P>Are you beginning to see the consequences of your inability to at least try and work with your H? I hope so. There are things both of you can do to rebuild a marriage and yes love and desire for each other. It starts with deciding what you want.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL...<P>I didnt mean to give Lexxxy incorrect info. Plan A is for the WS to do no contact with Op, is it not? That is what I meant for her. She can have no contact with OM. I am so sorry if I misunderstood or gave bad advice. Please forgive me.<P>Trueheart

Trueheart,<P>No forgiveness required. Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to stop LB's, meet the needs that the WS will allow to be met and then evaluate themselves and see where they have not been meeting the needs of the WS. Make changes in themselves according to this evaluation and generally try to make coming back an attractive alternative for the WS when the fog begins to lift.<P>What you are suggesting is very correct. She should have NO CONTACT with the OM at all. As you know much better than I, this often leads to the fog lifting and seeing the spouse in a far different light than the WS sees the spouse during the affair.<P>It is then that the effects of the Plan A are seen. The WS often sees the changes the BS has made, but more important they often find that their spouse will accept them back into the marriage (a hugh step), that it is safe to come back.<P>Plan B is the follow on to Plan A. If after doing your best Plan A for awhile and the affair continues, then the BS is encouraged to cease contact with the WS. Now here is the important part. The ceasing of contact is not to forces the WS's hand. No it is to preserve the love the BS has. Because if the BS does eventually run out of love for the WS, then they won't have the strength to work on rebuilding the marriage when the affair ends.<P>So neither Plan A or Plan B are about forcing the WS spouse home. They are to show the WS, that the BS still wants them, is willing to make changes to make them happy, and then is trying to preserve their love for the WS by going to Plan B.<P>It is a very subtle and effect approach and very counter intuitive for someone who has been hurt as bad as the BS usually is.<P>Why does it work? Well, as Harley and others have noted, most affairs end within 6 months to two years. Only a very small fraction of affairs lead to a marriage and the ones that do have about a 70% chance of failure. So the WS is going to come out of the fog and leave the affair in most cases. The issue is what will they find when the come out?<P>That is why Harley suggests this. He knows most affairs fail as affairs, and a even smaller fraction succeed as marriages. It is the nature of the relationship and the people involved that almost guarentee's failure of the affair relationship. Not all go this route but most do.<P>So to repeat Plan A is about stopping LB's, trying to meet needs of the WS, and self evaluation.<P>Plan b is about preserving love, not punishing the WS.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: Trueheart, read this thread <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003751.html" TARGET=_blank> Bonnie&K </A> . It addresses your question abit and may help Lexxxy as well. Just click on the name.<P>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited July 13, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited July 13, 2001).]

Thanks Just Learning --<BR>Makes more sense to me now.<P>However one thing you said bothers me. "do him the favor of leaving the children with him"<P>Why?<P>It seems like a blind statement to make. I think you are making that generalization because I have hurt him and he doesn't deserve it and all that. <P>But the kids are not a prize. Just because I have wronged him doesnt mean he "earned" them. <P>Frankly I am the better parent. And he would agree with me. I have been wronged in this marriage too. He has had an affair as well. And he was emotionally absent for many years which he will agree led us to where we are now. SO did I win them first?<P>So I appreciate everything you said that helped. However I think you should consider that you can't just generalize when it comes to the children.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lexxxy:<BR><B><BR>He's the BS, and I am the WS. <P>I think its because I really want him to understand where I am at, and how I got here. I really am not committed to re-building our marriage. But I don't want a divorce either. We've been living in this limbo land for way too long. He's committed to staying and making it work. I just resist all of his attempts.<P><BR>I dont want to disappoint everyone, including my OM. But that seems to be all I ever do. <P>I feel like I have lost myself. That I no longer recognize who I am or what I stand for. I often think that both of these men are foolish for wanting me. I think that everyone would be better off without me around. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lexxy,<P>I posted some of your quote to address these important points. <P>You are confused. Now please, step back and if you saw someone else doing this, what would you say? My H is in a similar mind set and also has talked about suicide. <P>Here is what I would like you to think about. First I would like to start off with an illustration: <P>You are driving down a road, it gets bumpy at times, the weather turns from good to bad and back again. Sometimes the car runs a bit rough but overall the vehicle is reliable enough to get you to your destination. It is not a state of art expense sports car nor an all-terrain vehicle but it is dependable and reliable. Now for the environment and your direction. You are traveling down a single road and now approach a fork. Both roads show similar surroundings. The road on the right continues on a steady course leading to your intended destination. The road on the left start out looking the same but it is an incomplete road sharply ending at a precipice. <P>You are aware of this fact, yet you are drawn to the road on the left because it is a pathy you have never been down before. Is there a chance that the road may have been fixed and is better than the road on the right? Hm.... not sure, maybe there are nicer people down that road. Oh, but I won't be able to see my family since they will be on the road to the right. They don't live on the road to the left. Our family is our destination. <P>You begin your travel on the road to the left. You begin to get farther and farther away from your destination. Along that road, there are side roads leading back to the road on the right. Those side roads are not smooth. They require effort to travel them, very bumpy, maintenance is in process so caution must be taken and there are many turns and sometimes the road is risky. The destination though leads us to the safe place: Back on the right road headed towards our final destination: Our family.<P>The destination on the left road is 1 person. An OP. That OP may or may not be there. The OP was suppose put a nice house up before the percipice, the OP was suppose to be there to receive us and welcome us. The OP was suppose to make us happy and convince us that it was ok to now be farther away from our family than we have ever been and stay there for the rest of our lives. <P>Is the OP there with the house and open arms? For some yes, but it was built tottering on the edge of the percipice. The ground is crumbling and in time that home it's surroundings and even the OP will fall and crash. <P>Now Lexxy, how would you feel if one of your children were in this situation? Would you let them go to be with someone like that? Could you give your blessing and say go and be happy? Could YOU truly be happy with this knowledge?<P>IMHO Lexxy, when you state that you do not want to hurt your family, yourself nor the OM, you are stating that you want both roads to meet at one place. That is physically, emotionally and mentally impossible. Even in the best of 2nd marriages, that is impossible. Only one family can receive loyalty, love and care. Do you have the right to hurt your family? You can but you should not. Do you have the right to hurt the OM? You can but you should not. <P>So now what? Have we gone full circle without a solution? NO!!!! The solution for all is, if you still have love for your family, you need to recognize that THE OM IS NOT A FAMILY MEMBER. So the statement about NOT hurting him is in the sense of NOT HURTING him as a NON family member. We say no to many relationships daily. Someone asks us to try a sample of some product, we say no. Someone asks us to use drugs, we say no. Someone comes to our door and asks us to sell us a product, we say no. They are NON FAMILY members, it is ok to say no to these persons. <P>OM IS NOT A FAMILY member, it is ok to say no when both you and he are trying to make him a family member. WHY?? Because it is not his right. Would you let a total stranger, a woman come to your home and move in with your family, sleep between you and your husband, eat your food, wear your clothes and bascially take over and replace you without a fight? I hope not. Does this stranger have this right? NO. Do you have to worry about their feelings when you tell them to leave (not ask, tell)? NO!!!!!<P>Please absorb this long post and respond. I am anxious to know your thoughts. <P>Thanks,<BR>L.<P><BR>

Wow. This is a great thread. Some very good thoughts circulating here.<P>Lexxxy, I'm a BS who thinks that my W is in a similar position to you. She is currently undecided as to what she really wants for the future, so for now, we are separating. She is continuing to see OM as well. She says she doesn't know if she's supposed to be with me, with him, or with neither of us.<P>I've been Plan A'ing myself for about a month now. I will continue to Plan A after I move out.<P>My question for you is: Can you explain further your problem with the idea of you and your H as a couple? Is this a purely physical attractiveness thing, or is it just because you are involved physically with the OM and cannot have simultaneous attraction? Are you turned off because your H is committed to the M, and he perhaps seems weak? Certainly you were once attracted to him... Can it be so impossible to return to that?<P>I'm of course asking because I am trying to gain insights into my W's behavior. We once had great intimacy, but since the pre-A and the A, there is really no physical contact. I find myself going back and forth between being very attracted to her and then not at all: that's all emotion-based. I would love to just kiss her, but she has said that because of where she is right now (i.e. involved with OM) she can't do it.<P>What could your H do to make you attracted to him? Let me rephrase: can you imagine a situation or scenario in which you would find yourself drawn back towards attraction to your H?<P>My fear is that Plan A makes the BS unattractive.<P>Thanks,<BR>zen<P>[This message has been edited by zen (edited July 15, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited July 15, 2001).]

Orchid, very nice imagery, I personally like thinking that way too, the danger of course is constructing a picture that pre-determines the outcome. The core assumption is that "family" is somehow a special animal...is it really? And if so how? Clearly kids are special, we are hardwired for our DNA to survive. Same is not true for spouse, they are a stranger who we needed (in a reproductive sense) to cooperate with. It is fairly simple (psychologicaly) to "replace" a "defective" spouse with a better model, and in fact we all will do so if pushed hard enuf by our perceptions of where we are at in life. A spouse is always a choice, and a choice can be undone, children are not, they are why we exist, we will not jeopardize them. This is a pressure to keep the current spouse, but it is not an absolute reason, and bs who depend on that argument put themselves at risk. WS know the kids will survive, so the family argument only works to a point, and the WS has already made that assessment. The "math" is whether you will be better for your kids by improving your emotional health (leaveing), or better for your kids by denying your percieved needs (staying). The only worthwhile strategy for bs is plan A thinking, you have to make yourself more desireable than the op, so you are chosen.

SnL,<P>This is Lexxy's post and she needs our support but I would like to respond to your post. If there were only the H & W, maybe what you say could be true. Together by choice yet there is still a bond that exists with no other and should not exist with no other. Even my H said he took what belonged to me (his love and feelings) and shared it with OW and he admitted that was wrong. <P>When there are children involved, the H & W are tied together with a bond that will never be broken, even if all the children were to disappear. When do you stop being a parent, then ask when do I stop being a mate? Joined at the hip for life. Try cutting that one. As I believe I asked before, which part of your child's body are you going to divide during the divorce proceedings between you and your W? How can you do that without killing your child either physically, emotionally or mentally? Then how will you stand before God and say you were a good parent? <P>Yes, those were vows we took, not poems, letters or sweet nothings. Keep your word man. We all should. You want to break those vows, then you must leave all behind, you can't have your cake and eat it to. Ever try making just 'a piece of cake'. There is no such thing. <P>I am not an idealist. Facing reality, consquences and our choices is reality for me. <P>Lexxy, I still would like to hear your comments. When you can of course. <P>Take Care all,<BR>L.<P><BR>

S&L,<P>I think Lexxxy answered your questions with her question to me. I hope you noticed how she bounced on the idea that SHE should lose the children and let H have custody. This is a high nonlinear problem and it cannot be boiled down to does the WS live in misery with BS as they promised or with OP in delirious harmony. Neither will be true and in fact with work and a bit of work it is guarenteed not to be true.<P>Lexxxy, you asked: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However one thing you said bothers me. "do him the favor of leaving the children with him"<P>Why?<P>It seems like a blind statement to make. I think you are making that generalization because I have hurt him and<BR>he doesn't deserve it and all that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No,it was not a blind statement. I made that statement for one reason. One of the possible outcomes from desolving your marriage is that you may lose the children. I suspect it is clear that you will hurt them no matter how the custody is settled. I made no statement about deserving to lose the children. <P>However, I find it interesting that you state your H has hand an affair. I would then suspect you have a clue about the pain involved for the BS. Yet, knowing the pain you chose to have an affair and extract that revenge on your H.<P>Are you happier? Live looking clearer to you? I suspect that you are not. Further, your H has been on the other side. Perhaps that is why he is hanging in with you now.<P>So maybe it is time to break the cycle of pain and punishment that seems to be going on. Why not learn to have a good marriage, to meet needs, to appreciate each other? It can be done. You at a site that can help, but more importantly I think that the people who host this site could help you even more.<P>There business is helping people rebuild their marriages in to marriages that in many ways are better than ever. Why not call Steve or Jennifer Harley and talk with them. It may help both your H and you.<P>You are here because you KNOW what you have done is not right. Yet, you are addicted, very normal Lexxxy. You are here is suspect because your H has surprised you. You thought he didn't care. You are here because marriage does mean something to you and you would like the best for your children.<P>In short, I suspect you are here for all of the right reasons. But you do have a problem, you are addicted to the OM. This can be handled Lexxxy. It is done here frequently from both sides.<P>So keep reading and posting but please consider getting come counseling. I think it will help both you and your H.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you all for your replies. <P>Gosh -- I'm not sure of where to start.<P>I have been reading and learning so much. I've read everything on this site, and also into the book "his needs her needs."<P>I want to continue posting because I seem to be a textbook case. You know, you always seem to think your life is so unique and no one understands your situation. This has been so enlightening. <P>I think there are so many reasons that I am in the situation I am in now. So many contributing factors. I can clearly see myself moving through the intimacy, conflict and withdrawal stages. <P>For a long long time, I moved back and forth from intimacy and conflict. I was a BIG-TIME giver. Basically all the responsibility fell to me -- for everything. I made the money, I paid the bills, I managed the household, I raised the kids. He was along for the ride. <P>Over the years, a lot of issues would move me into the conflict stage. As an example, it was critically important to me that my family attend church. I initiated those conversations over and over and over again. Made my needs and wants known. He ignored them. He is Catholic. He was required to attend church every week with his family, he went to Catholic elementary school, he was required to participate in church events, etc. He is a christian, but holds his beliefs as personal between him and God. He rejects the formality and structure of church. <P>OK -- but what about our kids? How do you raise them to be Christians without the benefit of sunday school and confirmation etc. Plus I felt it would bond us as a family and give us a support structure. I was willing to attend any church he chose. He was uncomfortable with the small church I always attended. Fine -- lets find one we both like. "No". I was unwilling to neglect and ignore the spiritual upbringing of our children. So I took them alone. Every week the children and I would go to church on Sunday, it was always my responsibility to get them to activities on other days as well. <P>It hurt me every week to get up and go alone. <P>I have a tremendous amount of anger towards him over this. I lost this part of my life as well, because after starting my affair, I felt like a hypocrite, and stopped going to church myself. I still take the kids, but just bring them in and go back home. <P>Now H is sorry. He never knew how important this was to me. (BULL!!) Now he'll go with me. Well guess what? Its too late. I can't ever have what I wanted. My kids are teenagers. I cant have my children growing up with a family that attended church together. And I have lost a huge part of my spirituality -- I no longer want to go to church myself.<P>That is simply ONE issue of many. I have so much rage towards him. I dont know how to forgive or let it go.<P>So orchid -- your visualization doesnt work for me, because why should I want to follow the path that has let me down so greatly? <P>I know that being angry and depressed and disappointed in my H is no reason to have an affair. I can truly honestly say I tried to get him to meet my needs. <P>I dont want to destroy my family. I dont want to devastate my children. I have put soooo much love and effort into building it. (GIVER) I just dont want to give any more to my H. And I dont want anything from him anymore either.<P>This one's getting long, so I'll try to compose my thoughts a little more and come back.<P><BR>

Something else struck me as I was reading what I wrote.<P>I'm thinking alot about the giver and taker concepts.<P>By my H demanding that I give up the OM, it feels like yet more that I have to GIVE....and I have never gotten what I NEED from H.<P>Does anyone understand what I mean?

Part of the Roller Coaster.<P>You have these thoughts then you completely change direction. I have run such a cycle of anger, depression, hope, anger, etc.<P>I know I hold so much anger towards my H. Then I think -- "geeeez who am I to direct all that anger and blame at him, i'm just this scummy person who cheated on her H"<P>Then I feel like total crap.<P>Whats the matter with these men? Why in the world are either of them fighting so hard to hold onto ME???<P>

lex...I understand exactly how you feel. Keep talking it out, and remember, feelings are neither good or bad, they just are. It is why we feel something, and what action to take that is important. That is essentially what I am doing here, I feel like I have been the emotional giver for years, and my taker is now firmly in charge. I am trying to understand how that works, and the discussion here with bs etc. is helpful. I feel pretty much the same (as you) when demands were made to give up my relationship with ow....what my feelings don't count? Just keep on giving? Not saying that makes it right not too give up, but that is how it feels.<P>btw you are not crap, but trying to understand why they are holding on is very very important. I am trying to figure out exactly the same stuff. What gets mixed up in this is feeling like I am something to be possessed, owned, won, and I don't like that. But I don't feel like crap, I know I am a good person who is in a hard place, and I find that it is more useful to try and figure out the place, then belittle myself. If you don't love yourself (warts and all) you cannot love anyone else. That doesn't mean you don't kick yourself in the butt when needed (afterall, who would know better than you), but you still value yourself.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 16, 2001).]