Is this a breakthrough?<P>I was talking with H about EN's and my trying to meet them...how was I doing? I have been leaving cards in his truck and other places for him to find...they weren't, IMO, too sappy--H said he was irritated by them because he thought that they were....(1. I believe in you, 2. Because we're Friends 3. I think about you)... He asked me to stop for now...I asked what if I left 'funny' cards....he reiterated...see, you won't just listen to me...(in other words, back off on the cards...)<P>I then asked about other needs, when he broke in...see you are pushing...you are already there...you know what you want and who you are...I don't....I am confused and you cannot push your information on me and expect me to make a decision in your time...it's gonna have to be in my time...I'm not sure what I want right now.<P>I'm thinking...wait a minute...confused? decision?? not sure??? This is the man who has been telling me for 3 months "I don't want to be married." "I don't want to be attached to anyone." "I don't want to be around you anymore?"<P>I stopped...thought and said...okay will you fill out lovebusters Q for me? so that I can be certain as to what you consider to be lovebusters...he gave me that look and said see....you're pushing...how can I fill it out if I don't know what I want? I said...okay...just look it over, if you can't or don't want to fill it out...don't...I think I already know what I have been doing that are lovebusters to you anyway...<P>End of conversation...well almost...I talked a bit about how I had filled out EN Q and thought that SF was a #1 need...as I listened to some old MB radio shows yesterday, I realized that it was really affection...that H was not very affectionate and that I craved SF from him because that was when I felt we really connected and I felt close and intimate with him...that if I had had more affection, my need for SF would not have been so overwhelming....my theory anyway....I also said I don't want SF from just anybody...he's been my one and only and it is him to whom that I want to be close.<P>Anyway...what do you all think??? breakthrough???? What do I do now?<P>BTW...I am reading a new book <I>The Way of Agape</I>. I'm not sure I agree with all of it...but it does address unconditional love in marriage...and even some parts on infidelity....<P>Cali

Cali:<P>My W (WS) said some similar things to me shortly after she moved out. She was a mess---going thru withdrawal, confusion, distress. She asked me to back off and not push her. I did the card thing---e-cards mostly, and notes, voice mails etc. She asked me to back off, that she felt it was too much pressure. So that's what I did. I decided I couldn't push or pull her anywhere.<P>I fell of the wagon a couple of times and tried to provide some push for her to come back home...but for the most part just backed off, but let her know I was there for her.<P>Did it help? Well she is still living on her own, but she is now talking about coming home. She is trying to re-commit to me, us and our marriage. I can only hope and pray that she does. But the point is that not pushing (and I think a lot of other here have heard the same thing)is probably more helpful than all the cards and messages etc that you can give them.<P>I think deep down they realize that stuff that goes into cards and messages...your devotion and love and seeing it or hearing it all the time makes them feel guilty.<P>Anyway my $0.02.<P>One more thing...you may want to look at a book called "Sexual Detours." My W read it first and gave it to me. It is pretty good and talks about how affairs are really a cover story for other problems and issues.<P>Hang in there.<P>Good luck <P>E <BR>

Cali, Cali, Cali - breakthrough? Very possible, but if you don't slow down it'll be a breakdown!<P>Come on - PLEASE go slow!! Don't smother, don't push, let him catch up!!<P>You're gonna make it, I'm sure.<P>WAT

Cali,<P>I am on the other side of the card issue. I am trying to decide whether to stay with my husband or start a new life. I have so many things to think about. I asked him to back off and give me some space because moving out of the house at this time is not an option in my case. He did back off for a few days and then the cards and little gifts started coming. Like yours, they were not sappy, just constant.<P>I did not like this, either. There is a very fine line between showing someone that you love him/her and trying to manipulate him/her. I felt that the latter was happening so I reacted against his show of affection. I told him that I felt he was being disrespectful of my wishes. He says he wasn't meaning to be.<P>I know that he is in a tough situation. He wants to prove to me that he is a new person and that he loves me but he's not got a lot of options for doing this. Still, I need time to think and pray and make a decision that is best for my family. The issues have never been about cards, anyway. He sent cards to me even when he was having sex with his best friend.<P>I don't know what to say about things you can do to show your love. I just know that when you do something, even something nice, that you've been asked not to do, it will probably be interpreted as manipulative and pushy. <P>I'm guessing that your husband already knows that you love him and he is just trying to decide what to do with the information. I'm sorry that I can't remember your situation right now, but it sounds like the ball is in his court for the moment and you will have to wait and see what he does with it.

Cali, I agree with WAT here. Your H said stop - stop. You continuing it is just an LB (as wacky as it may sound, you'd think you were meeting his EN's, but actually you are just LBing!!).<P>Some day you can do these things. Meet his EN's in subtle ways for now, k?<P>Perhaps just say, I understand I have been pushing you. I am sorry, I just want to get back what we had SO much. Listen, if you ever feel like filling this questionnaire out for me, here it is. If you don't, I will understand you are not ready yet. I will try my best not to push you anymore and give you your space, just keep telling me when I am doing it so I will know to stop, sometimes I don't realize it.<P>What do you think?

Cali<P>HBH <BR> Has hit it right on the head...<P>time & space for your WS<P>Patience for you...<P>hard but necessary...<P><BR> <P>------------------<BR>Lord give me patience, and give it to me NOW!

Cali:<BR><B>I'm thinking...wait a minute...confused? decision?? not sure??? This is the man who has been telling me for 3 months "I don't want to be married." "I don't want to be attached to anyone." "I don't want to be around you anymore?"<P></B><P>I remember when i first came on here, the first couple of posts I read were from [H] - he had just reconnected with Knewjie...remember? I PORED over every post of his. I LOVED IT!! It was exactly how I wanted my WH to come home....<P>Anyway, the point I want to make to you is: one of the things [H] said that I will NEVER forget is: "Confusion is a good thing...it means the fog is lifting..."<P>They (WS's) are SO SURE of what they want when they are in the fog....they tell us. I don't want you. I don't to stay...I want to leave...there was never anything here...you will be better off without me... you know. You've heard it all. They are so sure of everything they are doing and thinking! It isn't until the fog is lifting that they question it all. This is what [H] made me see. I see your H doing that! He's confused? THAT'S A GOOD THING!! <P>Just need to listen to him, and not LB. Just keep doing what you are doing. he's coming around. my .02 <P>Lupo<P>

Cali<P>Lupo is probably right...just remember it is a loooooooooong process filled with many sidetracks...<P>Two steps forward, one step back...<P>E

Cali see my post to you over on the Plan A/ Plan B board. YEAH!!!GQII is up and running again!

Cali see my post to you over on the Plan A/ Plan B board. YEAH!!!GQII is up and running again!

Cali, my wife does not appreciate my cards. When I leave her a card or a little gift or something on her pillow, she says "Thank you for the X" and that's it. For a brief time she didn't say a thing. She says I'm smothering her and that she feels guilty because she can't think of a thing to do for me and she feels nothing for me either way anyway. In fact I started the cards and little gifts because that's how she was pursuing her gay boyfriend.<P>At the same time if I leave out some detail of some story or event at work and I remember and tell her later, then I'm being dishonest and she feels left out.<P>I think it's all fog. I'm giving it a break for a while. Instead of giving a card once a week, I'll go to once every three or four weeks, just to remind her I care, whether she wants me to care or not.<P>SaltWater

Cali, I have been contemplating this a few days, as well as occupied elsewhere (thx for visiting), your circumstances are something of an enigma. I think I understand your H core issues as ws, but there is other stuff going on too, I think back to when we first talked about being his mother, so to speak. I really do think he likes your take charge, get stuff done traits. It is something I like the most about my w and I would never use that as a reason to complain, even when she is a little pushy and aggressive with it. <P>It feels like your husband does not believe you love him just for him, only if he behaves, acts in ways you approve of, etc. And it is possible he likes you alot, and respects you, but is not really sure he loves you passionately. I am a disorganized person (not sure about your H), I admit it, but I don't think that makes me unworthy, I have other good traits. But it makes me an easy target for criticism no matter how 'politely" (for my own good) made. My wife has subtley (and sometimes not so subtlely) made it clear I am defective, and by altering her demeanor, made it clear her love was conditional, as well as making me feel less good about myself (I know.. my self-worth is up to me, but others do affect us). This is not all of course, are other issues, but it has hurt alot, and made me angry deep down. I get the same sense from you sometimes in the way you say things, and that is what I try to convey to you. As a poster, one of the "people" here, I would say I like you (and many others, some I don't like), yet at the same time some of what you say (not the words, but what is between the words) is annoying, hard to explain exactly, but maybe is what your husband reacts too. You remind me of my w, the sense I get from many of our "talks" is not a real focus on me, but on being right. Whether it is logically right, or others would agree right, or I am unfair right, but it all adds up to the same thing, a focus on her, she doesn't see me.... do you see? I can't argue with her, cause she is "right", but my heart hears she does not care about me, only what I do for her, that being right, is more important than seeing me. <P>You seem to be getting this, and are working hard at it. It is possible I am too sensitive, and have a high need for reassurance, maybe your husband does too, I don't know. But if so the issue is not whether we "need" too much (and must be dealt with firmly), but whether you are willing to meet the need, not only willing, but want to, we don't want to be placated, we want to be wanted, and we know the difference.... I am not saying this real well... but do you see?<P>It is why now when I must talk and be um..... vulnerable about my feelings (else why bother), and she is not caring about what I say (even if it bothers her alot), I blow up, and say really really bad stuff. Then I think this is stupid, she doesn't need this, and I sure don't either, and leaveing looks more attractive.<P>The thing about the cards is it felt like problem solving, like what can I do to show H I care, if this isn't really "you" (and if H doesn't like it anyways), then don't do it, and not only don't do it, but don't act in the slightest hurt or put out or anything. The thing he wants most IMO is for you to stop problem solving everything. Quit asking questions that feels like being pulled into your way of doing stuff. I know this is hard cali, and I may be all wrong, but I am trying to pretend like I am you H, and provide some glimpse into this emotional place, which I feel like I share somewhat with you H. <P>I don't think this is a breakthrough. There is much more work to be done, and it will take a long time. But what you have done is good damage control, you have arrested the pressure pushing you apart, and demonstrated you can change in ways important to your H, hence his confusion et al. IMO what you don't want to do, and this may be a little anti-harley, is make him too regretful of what he is losing so he comes back as a business deal, you are better than nothing, and live the next 30 years this way. I think he wants to love you passionately, that this is important to him. That is what he is fighting for, and he knows it does not work unless you are passionate about him too, and for now he does not think you are. But then again, what do I know, I barely understand myself. It is sort of like this, oftentimes we all make kinda mental lists of why we love someone, this trait, that skill, this good memory, good sex etc, but if we have to make a list to um.... explain justify why we are in love, or not in love, we don't have passion. <P>The very act of trying too hard, of problem solving, can be confusing, or even annoying. So what to do? IMO, you just be you, plan A in other words, not a doormat though (you deserve and should require (gently, but firmly) reasonable respect). Let him come to you, choose you, don't pull him in any way, and make it clear, not by problem-solving but by joyful accepting of him that you are passionate in return (if you are). It is a fine line, but whatever you "do" needs to come from your heart, not your head, he will know the difference, am I making any sense here?<P>cali...I have been leaving cards in his truck and other places for him to find...they weren't, IMO, too sappy--H said he was irritated by them because he thought that they were....(1. I believe in you, 2. Because we're Friends 3. I think about you)... He asked me to stop for now...I asked what if I left 'funny' cards....he reiterated...see, you won't just listen to me...(in other words, back off on the cards...)<P>snl...I think he felt this was not "you", and therefore contrived, and therefore manipulative, and therefore not about him, but about you and what you want. You verified that when you didn't accept his first no, you discounted him, said he is not the focus, it is you, how can cali do this better, that better, you you you, you have to stop that cali. If you really wanted to do the cards, and did so, then a more useful response would have been ok, I really do want to express my feelings for you in special ways, if something comes to mind, and you want me to know, I would like it if you told me. If in hindsite this was not you, and just a page from the how to romance book, tell H that, and that it was manipulative, and you are sorry. It is so important cali that what you do be completely honest and from your heart not your head.<P>cali...I then asked about other needs, when he broke in...see you are pushing...you are already there...you know what you want and who you are...I don't....I am confused and you cannot push your information on me and expect me to make a decision in your time...it's gonna have to be in my time...I'm not sure what I want right now.<P>snl...you know by now how all this feels, you need to work on not being in "charge". Why not say hey H, do you feel like any talk now about needs and such? Instead you assumed it was ok to do so. If he said tentatively ok, then keep it simple and let him (if he will) talk in any way about what he wants needs, and just take notes, or clarify.<P>cali...I stopped...thought and said...okay will you fill out lovebusters Q for me? so that I can be certain as to what you consider to be lovebusters...he gave me that look and said see....you're pushing...how can I fill it out if I don't know what I want? I said...okay...just look it over, if you can't or don't want to fill it out...don't...I think I already know what I have been doing that are lovebusters to you anyway...<P>snl...you just won't stop will you? I know you want this so bad. But you didn't stop in a validating way (H you are important) you stopped in a cali way, leaveing H with instructions, if he wants to look it over let him decide when and how, wait for him to initiate. As long as you keep initiating he will never be able to choose you on his own.<P>cali...End of conversation...well almost...I talked a bit about how I had filled out EN Q and thought that SF was a #1 need...as I listened to some old MB radio shows yesterday, I realized that it was really affection...that H was not very affectionate and that I craved SF from him because that was when I felt we really connected and I felt close and intimate with him...that if I had had more affection, my need for SF would not have been so overwhelming....my theory anyway....I also said I don't want SF from just anybody...he's been my one and only and it is him to whom that I want to be close.<P>snl..That makes sense, when you said SF before something jarred, it didn't feel right and made me wonder. You are a problem solver, and were doing the best you could with what you had, so sublimated affection to SF. A good insight IMO, and important cause it keeps you from getting off track.<P>This was a hard post cali, this stuff is really tricky, and I wouldn't have done it but it feels like I have some useful similarities. Actually kinda made me tearful in spots. Interestingly my w came in a few minutes ago (been on computer alot today) and is annoyed (but not angry or anything). Asked me to do some stuff, kinda discounting my need to participate here, or at least control my time. I replied that her demands made me feel unimportant (or important just for what I do), this went on back and forth a bit, but she clearly didn't "hear" a word I said, so in effect told me I am unimportant... but see this is ok, cause what she needed done is pretty important too, so she has "right" on her side. Yep, she does, and she wins, I am off to do what she wants, but she really lost, cause now I am doing it to keep her from being upset, not cause I want to please her. So whos right? I don't know, maybe procrastinators, or disorganized people need to have their butts kicked with anger and disapproval, maybe if she tells me long enuf and hard enuf what all my shortcomings are I will see the error of my ways and repent. Time will tell. <P>

SNL--<P>Wow...what an insightful response. When you're right...you're right. <P>I have been reading <I> The Way of Agape </I>...I have been reading in the Notable Threads, Lostva's posts...<P>I have been crying...<P>I have been learning...<P>I will post a separate post when my thoughts are 'organized.'<P>Thanks, <P>Cali