How come?<P>Why is it that some cheaters at least admit what they're doing, while others, seemingly oblivious to gravitational forces, don't.<P>Yea, yea, I know. I've been around here long enough to know about fog and moose brain worms. But what's the REAL reason?<P>To me there's a HUGE difference between WSs who can see what they're doing, admit it but do it anyway, to those who can't even see it - or at least won't admit it.<P>But which is worse?<P>Is there a psychological "barrier" that prevents deniers from understanding their thoughts and actions? Or is it just simply that they convince themselves they're OK? Or is this just another way of constructing a psychological barrier? Can a murderer similarly convince him/herself that they didn't do it?<P>And of the admitters - Is it that they're SO selfish that they fully know what they're doing and just don't care? Are they brave cheaters? Are they similar to murderers who have "rational" justification for their actions? <P>Sometimes I wish that my wife would just admit what she's done, blame it on falling out of love with me years ago, ask forgiveness, and tell me what she wants.<P>Or, is she more prone to waking up someday? "Discovering" that she's been communicating with Shirley McLaine on the Mothership?<P>Somehow, the disignated hitter rule caused all this.<P>WAT

WAT,<P>I had one of the deniers, and I would like to know too. I think maybe they are better at jusfication to themselves. I know his started as friendship and maybe it is a slippery slpoe and you are not quite clear on when friendship becomes inappropriate when you are in the middle of it. And once you have set up the pattern of denial its easier to maintain it. Plus by that time most of us have LBed qite a bit and they go with the well, my spouse must not love me anyway, they dont turst me so I might as well do this. <P>I dont know about the imiatae admitters, I think they are more unusual. Maybe they are the ones that really want to get caught and give the spouse the message that all is not well in the marrige. <BR>Lora

Just an idea -- My affair wasn't a move to hurt my H. It was something just for me. It made me feel wonderful. And I hadn't had that in a long time. So of course I kept it secret.<P>Somewhere inside I knew that this would hurt my H. I honestly thought I could hide it forever. Or at least until I was ready to make a decision. If I had reached a point of deciding to leave him, he would probably never have known. <P>As it was, I stayed -- being torn about what to do. Unwilling to lose the OM because I got happiness from that. But also not wanting to lose my family. And got discovered. <P>I think someone who would blatently cheat or bravely cheat is someone that absolutely does not care about their spouse. Maybe its their way of sending message.<P>As for me, I didnt want him to know because I thought there was still a chance for us down the road. But I had to see where things with OM could go. <P>Hope this perspective helps

WAT:<P>I agree about the cause being the DH rule.<P>As for the difference between admitters and deniers, I can only speak from my experience.<P>At some point, I began to realize what I was doing was wrong and counter to all that I believed in. Yet, there was this compulsion to continue. At the time of D-Day, I was already starting to come out of the fog, but didn't know how to do so (1) gracefully and (2) without causing anyone (besides myself) any long-term emotional harm.<P>After D-Day, with the fog hanging in tattered shreds, we (actually zorweb) were fortunate to find Dr. Harley's books and then this site. I immediately initiated the no-contact rule voluntarily as (now out of the fog) I knew that my marriage was the most important thing in the world to me.<P>So what compelled me into the As? First, it was a slow process (via the Internet initially ... the "boil the frog slowly" approach) and secondly, after counseling and also talking with zorweb, it was revealed that (a) ADD was a contributing factor (my brain need stimuli to produce certain chemicals that were otherwise lacking); (b) there were some lingering issues from my previous two marriages (both exW's left for OMs and alternative lifestyles) and from my childhood (father abandoned us 34 years ago).<P>So, to sum it up, a theory: those who in "real life" can confront problems effectively are more prone to be admitters, those who are chronic avoiders tend to be deniers. So at a fundamental level, I think, it comes down to self-justification and self-image: admitters are comfortable enough to admit to problems and their self-image is solid enough to absorb the impact of what they have done; conversely, deniers have either a need to self-justify (to include revisionistic history) and/or have problems with their self-image.<P>Just a theory, though (and, gee, no math involved!) ...<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

OK, we're getting there.<P>My wife, the denier, did an incredibly poor job at keeping it secret. OM's W and I were on to them PDQ. Then the revisionist history started coming out in parallel with the lies and denials. Truth be told, we had a dysfunctional marriage for a long time prior, but the rivisionist history seemed to be "needed."<P>Yea, I think my wife has a self esteem problem, fitting STL's logic. She is also a perfectionist which may be diametrically opposed to being an admitter of such high crimes and misdemeanors - thus, helping her to construct her "barrier."<P>The alien abduction theory is a lot easier to accept.<P>WAT

WAT:<P>Perhaps, within the scope of the Alien Abduction Theory, they inject the Moose Brain Worms, and the lil critters infect the WS with denial?<P>It is definitely easier to comprehend things like fog, alien abuction and moose brain worms, than to delve into the inner workings of an irrational person.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

OK, here goes some of my straight forward thoughts.Please keep in mind these are only my opinions and therefor not worth much to the other person.<P>I have a hard time accepting what SeenTheLight has to say. <BR>You seriously blame your A's on having ADD? I don't buy the connection at all. There are plenty of ADD people who DO NOT have affairs.<BR>The fact that you had in the past a spouse that left you for another man would seem to me to give you reason NOT to do this to your current spouse. You know first hand the pain it can cause so why would you consciencsly cause that pain?<BR>And as far as your DAd abandoning you 34 yrs ago and that fact is a causing factor in your A, well, can't get that one either. That's the same ol bs that kids have always done, blame thier parents for all their bad luck in life. <P>I don't see where responsibility has been taken for your actions. Alot of blaming though.<P>I think a spouse that tries to hide an affair does so for a few reasons, one being not to hurt the spouse. I think there's still love involved in the marriage and although actions are hurting there's still a need to protect the spouse.<BR>Then there's some who want their cake and eat it to. They hide it so they dont loose it.<P>

Shedawg:<BR>[WAT, an apology for this digression on your thread.]<P>I did not blame the affairs on ADD (read my post more carefully, please) ... I point out that it is a contributing factor (converse to your statement, there are also a lot of non-ADD people having affairs). The human body is a chemical processing machine. If there is an imbalance, humans tend to self-medicate that imbalance.<P>Ever had a craving for a particular food item? A bananna for instance ... satisfies the body's need for potassium. So we all do it to an extent.<P>The things I listed were causal contributors in my case. Affairs rarely happen "out of the blue" ... so to work on restoration of the marriage and on prevention, the causal agents must be determined and dealt with.<P>Do I blame my father or my ex's? Hardly. However, lasting psychological impressions are created. Yes, since I was a BS twice before "I certainly should have known better." Human beings, however, have the inate ability to be blind to the past. I mention those aspects, because there were/are parts of it that have never been resolved. Moths get drawn to a flame for a reason. Ditto human beings.<P>As for taking responsibility: of course I did, that is why zorweb and I are on the road to recovery. I admitted to the affairs, we discovered Dr. Harley's concepts, and <I>after</I> beginning to implement them, we went after the <I>why's</I> and <I>wherefor's</I>.<P>It is okay to be straight-forward and blunt, it is an admirable trait; particularly if it is combined with sensitivity and compassion. (Yes, you can be blunt and to the point without ruffling feathers or hurting feelings (not to imply that mine were so impacted).) Also, when taking that approach, make sure your basis is solid. You need to do a lot more research on ADD, I highly recommend Dr. Amen's book <I>Healing ADD</I>. As far as the impact of psychological trauma in human beings, I will lend far more credence to your input when what you cite as "hogwash" is backed up by an MD or PhD.<P>Just being equally blunt and straightforward.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 15, 2001).]

I don't think I have anything controversial or half interesting to say, just my take.<BR>If a person tells himself something over and over again - do they not begin to beleive it? An athlete talks to himself. Psychology is part of the game. There are some people who believe they are losers no matter how smart they reallly are and never quite figure out how to make it in life.<BR>If the WS is doing something that he/she doesnt want to have to own up to(because they can't belive they are doing themselves), why not continue to lie or down play the whole thing? Sooner or later the WS and other people will believe the lie.<BR>As for being a brave cheater, I agree that is for people who really don't care about anyone else but themselves.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worthatry:<BR><B> "Discovering" that she's been communicating with Shirley McLaine on the Mothership?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey you brat... leave Shirley out of this, I've always liked her!! <P>I agree about cheating bravely. <P>This is why I fight so hard on behalf of what's now being called, "Radical Honesty". <P>Remember, I've been on both sides of infidelity. I say that despite my ex-H's punishments, which were harsh, it was the right thing to "fess up" immediately. My ex, for his part in HIS infidelities, NEVER fully told the truth about the affairs. He still maintains he didn't sleep with the first three, but he told me 13 YEARS after them that oral sex occured. I knew there was more, and there was. I still think there's more -- and of course, especially now that we're divorced and I'm remarried -- I will never find out.<P>My H and I talk about this occasionally, too. He wasn't told about his ex's affair for six months. He tried to "fix" something that he didn't know existed!! Talk about a lose/lose situation!!<P>Of course, it would be mighty nice if none of this ever touched any of our lives, but since it has, we should use something that wasn't there during the affair -- moral fiber and integrity. <P>On the issue of ADD and/or ADHD: Okay, yes, impulsivity is a HUGE factor, esp. regarding one-nighters. But not in relation to long-term affairs, at least in my opinion. Now, before you wonder if you know what I'm talking about -- I am ADHD, my son is ADHD, and I have worked with both children and adults with disabilities for over 10 years.<P>Look, I have been on these boards for 23 months, and over that time we have argued about depression, neurological deficits, alcoholism... oh shoot, many, many factors... you can latch on to anything to avoid taking responsibility for your actions. I defy you to find one post in my 5000 (I posted as new_beginning for the first 18 months here) that so much as mention the fact that I'm ADHD as a reason or excuse for my affair.<P>Just a thought...

Well, sorry you might have been offended but I still wouldn't buy it from my H.<BR>More research on ADD? Well, I raised my nephew for nine years and he was diagnosed with ADHD so I think between the counselors, the books, and the interent, I have learned a bit over the years and one thing that always stuck out from all three places was taking responsibility for actions and not blaming it on the diagnosis. I have never allowed his affliction be an excuse for poor behavior and neither does he now.<BR>Anyway, just my opinion again.

I think (oops there I go again, being dangerous). Anyway my thoughts are that there are 3 levels of the A. <P><BR>For the WS:<BR>1. Admission by confession. - guilt, remorse <BR>2. Admission by being caught - some guilt, some remorse<BR>3. Denial - some or no guilt, little or no remorse<P>There are 3 types of recognition:<P>For the BS:<BR>1. Forthright confession - ability to forgive, fix, recover<BR> together or alone<BR>2. Catching - some ability to forgive, fix, recover together<BR> or alone. <BR>3. Acknowledgment without admission - working to learn, to<BR> forgive, fix, recover together or alone. <P>The combination varies and is dependent on characteristics of each individual. Recovery also is dependent on these same combinations. <P>Previous issues attributing to this state of massive confusion? Yes they can all be contributing factors. Physical, psycological and emotional conditions all play a role. <P>This massive combination makes it so hard for both the WS and BS to see the real issues, face reality, deal with it and move forward. Some will live a lie for the rest of their lives and others will face it (with or without difficult) and move on. <P>I've told my H and in-laws, if you are gonna lie, make it good because when it comes time to face your maker you better have had a good time because now you won't any longer. <P>Either way life does not stand still for no one. <P>JMHO.<BR>L.<BR>

I denied it (by not admitting it when I realized it) until I was discovered, and had said I agree to a divorce (history of marital unhappiness) first (discovery came the next day though). So not sure I ever would have told had she agreed to divorce, and not discovered. When she did, I denied everything I possibly could, concocting the usual range of outlandish explanations. I have one I have never heard before, and one day I will share it here when appropriate (I still need it a bit). Heretofore I had never lied about anything (except small forays into conflict avoidance lies, which IMO blame is equally shared with the spouse when they use anger too much). The reason for being a denier is simple, I valued the developing relationship, and telling would have ended (or seriously impeded) it. In my case I didn't think my w would be hurt so much as mad, and I wanted to avoid her anger and interference. I didn't think she loves me, and would simply have had something else to use against (and control) me with. I suspect this is a not uncommon reason for denying. It felt like survival, one of my imageries was we (ow) were in a lifeboat together, and telling would dump us back into the ocean to drown. I am not sure bs fully appreciate how much an A feels like survival to many of us. If something is life and death behaviour changes. Yes, spouse may be hurt, but they are still alive, and don't need us anyways, whereas we are dieing. Hope this helps understand. It wasn't that I didn't care exactly, it is just that her feelings never really appeared on my radar. I guess you can call that rationalization, and self-interest, seems to be what it looks like I guess.

N:<P>As an adjunct to ADD/ADHD: impulsivity is one facet of the malady. Dependant on the type (there are six types identified by Dr. Amen (<I>Healing ADD</I>), one of the fore-most researchers in ADD), ADD/ADHD react to various stimuli in various ways. In every form of ADD, the root causes are found in a genetically inherited lack of certain chemicals, among them dopamine.<P>Dopamine deficiencies result in behaviors that seek stimuli (mental and certain other stimuli increase the production of dopamine). An affair is one form of stimuli. Does ADD cause affairs? Of course not. It is merely a piece of the puzzle, a contributing factor.<P>Many factors go into what creates an affair: while many have been identified, there are others not so easily identified. We are the sum of our life's experiences, in that regard each of us is unique. So while affairs follow certain patterns once begun, what led the WS there in the first place is not so easily defined, and that is what makes implementing the MB concepts an art and not a science; a framework and not a dogma.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<B>For the WS:<BR>1. Admission by confession. - guilt, remorse <BR>2. Admission by being caught - some guilt, some remorse<BR>3. Denial - some or no guilt, little or no remorse</B><BR>My H did NOT have to admit - thereby trying to relieve himself of ANY sense of guilt. He simply LEFT, left D. papers and tells everyone we are separted and divorcing, so he's free to "date" - his take on what he's doing. I think this is because the guilt was already so intense, he couldn't face any more by 1)Admitting to an A, or 2)staying and having me find out. Actually, it was logistically pretty impossible to continue in his A, since she lives 150 miles away from us. I truly believe he TRIED to break it off, at least once, and couldn't. Then when the job quit, and he had no way to get to be with her, he tried again to break it off, but the addiction became unbearable, so rather than find any excuses (he'd used them all!) to go see her, he simply had to pack and go to her. Revisionist history made this palatible (sp). "Our M has been over for awhile...I didn't think you'd care if I left...I just don't want to be M anymore...You'll be better off without me."<P>S_N_L:<B>In my case I didn't think my w would be hurt so much as mad, and I wanted to avoid her anger and interference. I didn't think she loves me, and would simply have had something else to use against (and control) me with. ...It felt like survival, one of my imageries was we (ow) were in a lifeboat together, and telling would dump us back into the ocean to drown. I am not sure bs fully appreciate how much an A feels like survival to many of us. ...Yes, spouse may be hurt, but they are still alive, and don't need us anyways, whereas we are dieing. </B><P>Lupo: Sad_n_L, I have told you before how much you sound like my H. Once again, here is a post HE could have written.<BR>It saddens my heart to think that he was dying inside, as you say, but I know it to be true. I could tell (Ya, NOW!) from his actions. His A is his way of grasping for some LIFE, for some last chance for happiness.<P>Getting back to WAT's original question, Why do I think my H was not admitter? Because the extreme guilt he would face would have made another day of life impossible. He had been "dumped" this way himself by previous w (exact same scenario, letter - "don't want to be married anymore, found someone else...") So he KNEW how this was going to feel. He tried to commit Suicide over it, so he knows the pain.... then my question is: HOW could he do this to me? He would have KNOWN this is devastating?? That is where S_N_L's post helped me understand HOW.....HE felt he was dying inside, and HIS dying inside, and need to try to survive outweighed the PAIN he knew he was going to inflict on me.<P>This is what saddens me the most. That I cause him this exteme measure of pain, FAR outweighing the pain he knew mine would be, to the point that he had to do this. My only silver lining is that he DIDN'T let me find out, or do anything that would put this A "in my face" - his idea of a "kind" gesture toward me. It is this (only) unselfish act on his part that gives me hope (!) strange as that seems. If he was THAT much in pain, and STILL could think of me - even in a little, remote section of his moose brain - then I know there is love for me in there somewhere.<P>My .02. Once again, I thank S_N_L for opening up, and giving me a glimpse inside a brain that seems to work as does my H's. It is comforting, somehow. I wish I could repay the favor, and lessen your pain.<BR>Lpo<BR>

Boy Wat, <P>When you start a thread, you always do a whopper. Here goes another opinion.....<P>A's can be a type of addiction. My H went from day trading, to A's to Ebay/Ubid to A to...... stimulate what? Hm.... makes you wonder. Now while I don't have all the research done yet on there is a possibility that some of this may be related to one's inability to control themselves due to chemical deficiencies. But not completely. So while I may not consider it an excuse, I can see where it could be a culprit, contributing factor leading to all that confusing fog/fogese stuff. Also why it is so hard for those without it to comprehend. <P>Of course, these are my thoughts without the PHD. <P>Just a little bs talking. Hey don't take that the wrong way. <P>L.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeenTheLight:<BR><B> We are the sum of our life's experiences, in that regard each of us is unique.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Look, you obviously know your stuff (and I respect that), as I do (although you may or may not realize that since I am not quoting anyone, just giving my opinion). <P>I am not going to pull out my books and dig through my life to argue with you, because bottom line, you have said everything that needs to be said in the quote above.<P>Affairs happen just because they do. I wish they didn't -- as I wish there was no need for a forum like this. <P>I wish every marriage could be saved. <P>I wish everyone could be honest all the time.<P>To me, there are NO EXCUSES for having an affair. I didn't have any choice when my ex-H cheated, and I held the marriage together for 13 years after his first affairs. I then cheated myself (so STUPID), and my then-H could not forgive me, or work to repair that which was broken -- the marriage.<P>You never know how someone is going to react. I guess, like for the one who does the straying, it is the sum of life experience which determines how the betrayed spouse will react.<P>

Wow What a thread. I never seem to think that deeply but always gain when I read a posting such as this. You all gave much insight and I thank you for your openess with your thoughts and opinions. I took some notes, to go over again later.<P>C ya Dawn

Hey, I've been out of town, but wow, what a great thread to come back to.<P>My take, I'm sure it isn't original at all but here goes:<P>I think it has to do with the "self-portrait" of the the WS. The denier sees themselves as faithful, loyal, and basically would never do such a thing. Then, one day they wake up and realize they have. On a deep emotional level they are faced with either: A) discovering a very disturbing truth about themselves and having to re-work their self-portrait right down to the core; or B) They leave the portrait intact, dump their connection with reality, and excuse, revise, reinterpret and lie in order to preserve this thing. They almost always pick B<P>The admitters, on the other hand, I think have a self-portrait that may actually be more realistic. They did it, they knew they were capable of it, and it happened. Since they already believed they were capable, there's no self-image to protect. All in all, if the admitters are the kind of people who know they can fall into deep holes, but don't like that about themselves, I think they are far more likely to come out of the fog, seek forgiveness and work to restore the marriage. The deniers are so worried about keeping their illusions intact that recovery for them, I think, is much more difficult.<P>My WS is a denier who only admitted when I had irrefutable evidence, and I think she is still in denial, still trying to protect here self-image, and that makes recovery much more difficult.<P>Just my 2 cents worth. PS: I'd ten times rather have an admitter who said, Yeah, I had an affair, you treated me like s**t, now do you want to try and fix things, or should be just pack it in? God, that would be music to my ears!<P>Ish

Well, just had to jump on this post, not so much because I happen to have ANY ANSWERS, but because I have thought SO MUCH about this issue......and yet...I still havent' a clue.<P>Seems a lot of the above replies mention SOMETHING that is MISSING... could be emotional needs, could be dopamine, could be impulse control, could be they just don't know... <P>All I know, is that my H still seems to be in some sort of denial, despite the fact that he and OW have a 6month old son. He finally told the kids about the baby, and even brought the baby to his house to meet them (and even take photos).... but will not mention OW's name, or really anything about the mother. They do not live together.. his mom has not really met her, though she has met the baby... BIZAAR.<P>I asked him to talk to the kids about the baby because they were not ready to meet him yet, and were confused. His answer was to just show up at his house with the baby!!!! and to tell me the next am.<P>Clueless.<P>I have a friend who has a teenage stepdaughter who is really having a difficult time, with drugs, stealing, lieing etc. Both sets of parents are trying to work with the issue and help (as in control)... They finally went to thier minister. His reply, among other things, was to let go. That teenagers have a lot of issues going on... self esteem, feelings of invincibility etc. The parallels with my H are amazing. He pretty much does what he wants... If he makes the rules, he even breaks them. I always sense he wants to start a war with me, so I stay out of it.<P>I sense that he gets "high" on his ablility to lie to me, or to do things that I might object to...such as showing up with the baby. Like I am his mother.<P>I see my H as a man without conscience. I do NOT believe he is able to SEE himself. Yet I am so aware that I can do nothing to control him, or change him, or make him see.<P>I've said very little. Just asked for some empathy or compassion regarding the kids, much in the way he is noted for being with his patients. Yet, I've seen none. The self absorption makes him almost unrecognizable. <P>And for saying all of that, all I know is that whatever it is that I do not know or understand that he is going through, I cry buckets every night for his lost soul, and pray that at some point he will be led out of his darkness.