H put kids in bed tonight and started to get angry when they didn't want to go...middle child (the angry one) was especially clingy.<P>I made a statement (a quiet observation--very careful that it was NOT a selfish demand) that he really should talk to them about his 'sleeping' someplace else and BAMM! The angry spouse made a reappearance.<P>I was told that they couldn't possibly have a problem with him sleeping someplace else unless I put it into their heads. That oldest son had to have gotten from me, the idea that Dad did't live here anymore...why else would he say to me that he (oldest son) is the man of the house?<P>He was incredulous and angry when I said the middle son had told me that he didn't love me anymore...like daddy. (Boy, he'd probably blow a gasket if I told him he'd also said that he was glad Daddy didn't live with us anymore.) H told me twice there was no way he said it...implying that I made it up...yeah, I've got soooooo much time on my hands, I can make things up....<P>Does he think they have no brains? They are our children after all...(oldest child is in gifted program...)Then he proceeded to blame it all on the THREE times I lost it....yes I yelled, screamed, said obscenities--really lost control and lost my mind with boys around...I even told H to leave during those times...let's see the last time was in May, I think...(Hurricane Cali was not visible to kids...). Regardless, it is all my fault...hmmm. Guess he forgets that he told them he was going on a 'quest.' Older son even asked him tonight if he was going back on his quest... He still hasn't explained to them what he means by a quest...<P>He went off on a tear about how much he was still around...that he couldn't figure out who he was and what he wanted around me. I asked why? (Because I won't let him be him....hmmm. Back to I have changed...he doesn't want to believe me.) <P>Basically H is in MLC selfish mode. It is all about him. I told him that arrangements were going to have to change, eventually...I deserved more 'by myself time.' He said why....why? why? I think he really thinks we can go like this forever...with me being here 100% of the time and him 'relieving' me when it's convenient for him... In fact, he told me that I would 'ruin' it just to get back at him. I would make sure the arrangements didn't work....(I guess the arrangements are only supposed to work for him--screw me right?)<P>mthrrhbard...I can feel plan b around the corner, can't you?<P>So H left all angry with me. Twice he said okay, I'll stay but I'll be miserable...you'll all be miserable. <P>I kept my voice quiet, calm and matter-of-fact. Where is your anger coming from? Why can't we just talk this out? I HAVE CHANGED. (Was told I hadn't, couldn't possibly have changed. Boy, if he read my posts over the last 2 months, he'd have to eat his words .) Finally, I said that I can't talk to him about this without seeming to be trying to guilt him or manipulate him. He was right, talking was going to be futile.<P>He continued to storm...muttering stuff about how much of an a**h*** he is....<P>You know I think he has to hold on to the anger to feel justified in what he is doing....he has to really dig to continue to 'blame' me and if that fails--he goes into "it's all my fault mode" because that's when before I would rescue him and tell him "I was sorry." <P>Tonight, I followed him out to his truck....hugged him and said, "It hurts me to see you hurt like this..." Not what he expected....<P>And the beat goes on....it had been a pretty quiet two weeks since he moved out before this.<P>Cali<P>

Oh my dear Cali, <P>I feel for you. His anger directed at you. Ah... but it is not all his anger is directed at you. He called himself a what? <P>Here is your queue. Use it. He has acknowledged he is messing up. Now don't turn it into an LB but delicately work this around. <P>Something like: Honey, I don't want to see you angry at yourself or anyone else. It seems like the kids are trying to do the same thing. Can you help them? <P>I have told my H that I want him to be happy. Wherever that was he needed to be happy. Now after saying a lot of what you are hearing, H is now saying he can only be truly happy with his family reestablish his relationship with God. Now he even says he feels repentant. This is progress. Whether it will last is another issue. <P>Your H has handed you a bag of sour lemons. Do your thing Cali, turn on that sweet charm and make lemonade. Then serve it up (by meeting his emotional needs). Only if he agrees to taste some of that sweet and tasty lemonade will he know what he is missing. <P>Start squeezing those lemons..... <P>L.<BR>

Cali -<BR>Plain and simple - It is the contact with the OW (that creep) - its okay for me to say it. I am so sorry you are going through this - I am not an advocate for Plan B (so soon?), but I know what you are saying - he can't sit on the fence too much longer. It's that thick, thick fog -he can't see. hang in there, we care about you, I just wish he would come to his senses. hugs, aftershock

Write him a letter, tell him the welfare of the kids is a separate issue from your marital problems, you are not going to put them in the middle, or let him do it either, and if he can't handle that hit the road. Tell him anyone with any brains at all knows that marital disharmony affects the welfare of kids and that they need to hear from BOTH parents. That ideally both parents get together and present a united explanation to the kids, and then stick to it, that you are willing to do this, but cannot do it without his cooperative participation. Say you don't have all the answers and need his help in this presentation, and would appreciate his addressing this. Suggest when that is done, then you and he can continue to struggle over understanding/resolving your issues, but that mixing in the kids is just asking for disaster, and is harmful to the kids you both love and do not want to see hurt.<P>as for who he is and such, just look attentive, and say nothing, is nothing to say, tell him you are available to talk anytime he wants to do so, but you are respectfully leaveing that up to him.<P>as for why you need time to yourself, just tell him without it you will go nuts and then he will have to take care of kids all the time himself. Is the normal human reaction to intolerable stress and you can't help it <P>As for calling himself an a**h*le etc, I have done so too, and I was telling my w how the conversation was making me feel. It meant I felt worthless, and usually came after an altercation like you had (especially if kid issues are involved, this is a very sensitive area). At times like this I would also just go cold/dead and was liable to say really hateful stuff. He is not trying to hold on to the anger, he wants to get rid of it, best thing to do IMO is just let him be, say you are willing to talk later, and sorry he feels that way, is not how you see him, and back off.<P>He is gonna have to solve his own anger issues, no one can do that for another, your role is to not act as an irritant, but there are limits (boundaries). Our worse altercations were when I "felt" like this, and my wife would get desperare, the anger scared here, and she would just keep after me, trying to talk it out...or she would act hurt and try to ecxplain why she needed sympathy, both efforts just infuriated me. Best thing to do is just stop, take a break, see if any interest in debriefing later, and if not, just let it go.<P>cali..So H left all angry with me. Twice he said okay, I'll stay but I'll be miserable...you'll all be miserable. <P>snl...I would say, I hear you, and making you stay, or go, is not my goal, my goal is good emotional health for you and I, and the welfare of our children. I can't figure that out by myself, I need your help (or something similar).<P>keep up plan A, avoid all conflict, or problem solving, just decide for yourself what the boundaries must be, respectfully comminicate them, and stick to them. But tell him you are available anytime he wants to discuss stuff. Try and give him every opportunity to decide and do stuff. This will take time, it took years to work up the despair and anger, it will not go away anytime soon, some sensitivity may take years even. The best outcome is for him to decide to do the MB counselling, when he understands they will be supportive of HIM, he may decide it is worth a try. The part I love, is that "I" get to decide what is selfish, disrespectful, annoying etc. I don't have to prove anything (of course you get the same rights).<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 16, 2001).]

ditto SNL<P>Sounds very familiar - you haven't changed, blah, blah, blah.<P>It's hard, but stand back when he gets like this. Let him have his internal struggle. Guys like to fix their own problems. If he wants help, he'll ask for it.<P>WAT

I do not know if a strict Plan B is necessary in your situation. It is almost impossible to do with kids anyway. But Cali you have to set some firm boundaries and stick to them. You are not helping H, yourself or your kids by letting him come and go as he pleases on his own terms. Right now there are no natural consequences to his moving out. He has nothing in place that will motivate him to change. That doesn't mean that you have to create an arrangement that doesn't work. AYYYYYE they just get soooo ridiculous with the things thay say!! That alone was enough to frustrate the living daylights out of me. Everything H said was sooo exaggerated,couldn't believe I was changing for good, yada, yada, yada. I'll say it again. Sounded just like your H. <P>You have to set boundaries. You'll go crazy if you don't and your kids will watch. I took a leave of absence from my job when I found out about H's affair. I was a labor and delivery nurse and no way was I going to work being so distracted that I might jeopardize the safety fo somebody's delivery. This left me with the ability to have the kids all the time. I told H that if I was going to have the kids all week he needed to have them on the weekends. If he had something to do on the weekends, then he would have to find a sitter for them. They were all in school(two different schools) so he came each weekday morning to help get them ready and take two of them to school(same school). This was the way we did things before he moved out, so nothing changed in their morning routine,just that he wasn't here when they woke up. I was pretty much business like when he was here in the morning as I sure didn't want my kids' day getting off to a bad start watching mom and dad get into it. So I avoided any discussion about "us" in the mornings. Actually, I refrained from any conversation about "us" at any time unless he initiated it. H wanted to be here at bedtime every night as well. I told him "no". This is where he had to realize that his moving out had some consequence. For one, it was too upsetting to the kids to have him waltz in and then leave once they were in bed, he wasn't fooling them. Second, it was too emotionally disruptive to me to have him here twice a day and watch the kids yearn and beg him to stay every evening. So,since it was not going to be a good thing for me or my kids the answer to being here at bedtime was "no". He chose to go and that was a natural consequence to his choice. I was not being unreasonable in any way, shape or form. If he wanted to be mad about it, oh well. You have to just become numb to their anger and realize it has nothing to do with you and forget about it and refuse to deal with it. Often when they are angry the situation can become very disrespectful. I demanded respect, afterall I was the one holding it together for my kids while he moved out. I deserved respect and was making sure not to tolerate his disrespectful anger or get drawn into it.<P>My kids refused to go with him on the weekends. They didn't want their lives disrupted. They knew he was wrong. He hated this. It broke his heart, but you know what? This was the reality of how life would be if we divorced. His kids would resent him for disrupting their lives if he forced them to come with him on the weekends.I was prepared to have something to do every weekend so I could let him stay here in the house with to have his time with the kids. He didn't like that either. He didn't want me having something to do every weekend. Oh well, I didn't like him moving out and not being committed to the marriage either. I must say that once H was hit smack dab in the face with this reality he started to change his tune. This was coupled with the fact that he could see me making positive changes in myself. Saying I'd changed was worthless, I was wasting my breath. It was seeing it that made the difference. It was him also seeing that I was seeking support from others who were separated, divorced or widowed within a group situation that altered his comfort zone as well. It threw an element of risk into the situation. All of a sudden he did not have the guarantee that I wouldn't find comfort and solace of my own without him and without all the pain and suffering he was causing me. This WAS NOT a game. It was again, a natural consequence to his moving out and me having to parent my kids alone. I needed support. I wasn't looking to find someone else. I couldn't have cared less about finding another man, but it certainly was a natural consequence of his behavior for me to seek support from others who knew exactly what I was going through. All of these natural consequences suddenly made his behavior become risky to continue. Now, he actually had something to lose. It was real and not just a "what if" in his mind. It made a huge difference in how long I waited for him to make up his mind about committing to the marriage. It took him 2 months.<P>You have the added complication of OW still being in the picture. For me, that would have meant Plan B. There was no way I was going to be a part of "competing" with her for my own H. You need to consider how much of an impact she is having on him and adjust accordingly.

Plan B Cali, I have to agree. you already gave him the letter, back in l ike May right? He decided to move out, you told him it was his choice back then, he made the choice. This guy is driving ME crazy- I don't know how you are coping with this drama king!! Sorry, just my opinion.<P>{{{{{Cali}}}}}}<P>

Well, you know I gotta agree with Scared here...<P>I don't know how you talk about the kids like this and not have it be an LB. <P>Just say you understand he needs his space, but you need structure and some time to yourself. Here's a plan, does he agree, what would he like to change, etc.

Cali...I dont really have anything to say here. I just read your posts in shock that this man doesn't see the loving wife and wonderful family he could have if he just gets off the damn fence. I guess I am in the minority in that I disagree with H's attitude, anger, and waffling. I understand, full well, struggles of the WS, but to me, he is using it as a crutch. My gut tells me you don't have all the facts, and that is why there are still so many questions. I have a funny feeling, if you had all the facts, the decisions would be easier. The *anger* he displayed is because he doesnt life facing the truth of the situation. He doesn't want his kids feeling what they feel toward him, he doesn't want to take responsibility for making them feel this way, so you get to be the scapegoat, once again. I have a hard time with it when I believe he is using it to justify whatever is still going on. I just wanted to let you know I am in your corner, and pulling for you, no matter what you decide!! {{{HUUUGGGGZZ}}}}}<P>Trueheart

Cali, <BR>Just want to said that I read a lot of your posts and I can see you become stronger after each drama you went through.<P>Just one simple question - are you on plan A or B? I know that you handed him the plan-B letter a while back and with the kids you have, it is very hard to be in true plan-B. If you do decide to go to plan-B again, make sure he know you mean it. I never go to plan-B ( because I know I can not do it), but my understanding is that plan-B is either the WS comes back in your condition or end of contact forever.<P>About his anger, can you suggest him something so both of you can handle it better when next time that happens? Something like time out for 5 min., both of you count to 10?<BR>Every time if I feel my WH starts to build up anger, I will start my topic by saying "what I am going to say is just try to help you. I am not necessary right, but if you feel I am worng please let me know and educate me". He take it pretty well and I can express my thoughts. If he still did not like it, then I will drop it till a better time.<P>Hanging there, You are a very strong lady!!!<P>

I had a long talk today with a friend who has her MFCC (licensed marriage & family counselor).<P>She, like mthrrhbard, recommended clearer boundaries. No, I am not in plan b...I was too new in MB to really understand when to go to plan b. I did have a session with Steve and he thought that I could remain in plan A.<P>Actually with him not living here (though he's here most of the time), plan A is easier. Also, I believe OW is, at least temporarily not in the picture...course that is an assumption and you know what happens when you A$$ U ME stuff .<P>So sometime this week or weekend I will broach the subject of clearer boundaries to lessen the confusion that the boys are experiencing.<P>Trueheart--I put your letter in his truck...he's not keen on 'reading' the stuff I give him...but you never know. There is a post by Terrified in which Dawnn replies that gave me some comfort that I am starting to read him better.<P>Time will tell. On another note, I forgot to mention that we spent the 5th Sunday in a row, after church, looking at houses and talking to realtors....any wonder why I am on my way to NUTZ???<P>Cali

Cali...<P>I truly hope for you the best no matter what happens here. You are really getting the mixed message machine...WOW!! It is so hard for you to know which direction to go. I sure hope somewhere in that letter he finds something to hold onto!! I admire you so much for the strength and resolve you have. I am not sure I would be so strong, if I were in your shoes. If there is anything I can do, let me know!! (Babysitting would work, but its a long drive for one day...LOL) Keep the faith, kiddo!!<P>Trueheart